Re: [translate-pootle] Tool for translating via an intermediate language--reply to Bruno's questions

[Daniel E. <es...@gm...>]

You can configure your enviroment variables to use diferent languages
sources:

nah:es:en

will translate all the msgid's from english to the existing msgstr's in
Nahuatl (a native language in Mexico like Quechua), if not found gettext
will try to find a msgstr in Spanish, if not found will show the msgid (in
english).

AFAIK this is a configuration in the language pack of the distribution or a=
s
an inviroment variable.

2006/10/11, Amos Batto <amo...@ya...>:
>
> Javier,
>
> We are not looking for the ability to simply change
> the language. We need the ability to see both
> languages at the same time. We want to create programs
> where both the Spanish and the Quechua are displayed
> on the screen at the same time.
>
> Let me give you a simple example. If you have the menu
> item "Edit hyper-link", quechua-speakers need to see
> both "editar hiper-enlace" and "Sinchi-wata=F1a
> hinayachiy" at the same time.  First of all, most
> Quechua-speakers can only read Spanish, so they are
> just learning how to read in Quechua.  Secondly, most
> owners of ciber-cafes and teachers in schools don't
> speak Quechua and they won't install software on their
> computers if they can't read it. In the Andes, better
> educated people generally don't speak Quechua, whereas
> poorer and more rural people speak it.  Furthermore
> most people don't use computers at home.  They go to
> ciber-cafes to use the computer, so it is very
> important that the software get installed in public
> places.  Finally, the word "hyperlink" doesn't exist
> in Quechua, so we had to invent a word. Even somebody
> who reads and writes Quechua very well is probably not
> going to know that "sinchi-wata=F1a" means "hyperlink".
> For all these reasons, we need bilingual software.
>
> These are the problems faced by most indigenous and
> minority languages in the world.  There are 6000
> languages in the world, and the majority of them are
> mainly oral languages, which people are just beginning
> to put in a written form.
>
> For these reasons I added the functions --bilingual,
> --statusbar, --strip and --replace to the script
> instrans.php.  I'm not sure that any of these
> functions should be added to gettext. They are pretty
> specialized and if a translation team wants to do
> bilingual translations, they can use instrans.php.
>
> However, I do think that a "COPY language" flag is
> something that would be used by many translators, so
> I'm advocating that it be added to gettext.
>
> Cheers,
> Amos
>
>
> --- Javier SOLA <javier@Khmeros.info> wrote:
>
> > Amos,
> >
> > Some technical points that have nothing to do with
> > gettext:
> >
> > - You can have bilingual builds of OpenOffice or
> > other products, and
> > change from one language to the other. We do that
> > already for some
> > languages. The solution is not in putting two
> > strings in the same
> > language pack, but to include two language packs in
> > the build.
> >
> > - Being able to copy to the target string
> > (translation) from Spanish
> > rather than from English is a function of the
> > localisation editor, not
> > of the data format. Gettext or some other tools
> > provide files that have
> > the necessary information. The editor must learn how
> > to use this
> > information and make the translator's life as easy
> > as possible...
> > allowing ofr example, copying from the third
> > language (Spanish in our
> > case) to the translation field.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Javier
> >
> >
> >
> > Amos Batto wrote:
> >
> > >Hi Bruno,
> > >
> > >The features in instrans.php aren't recommendations
> > >for how to change the PO/gettext format. Basically,
> > I
> > >was trying to let people on the list know that a
> > tool
> > >exists that they can use while they are waiting for
> > >the the PO/gettext format to be updated.
> > >
> > >Instrans.php is just a quick and dirty tool for
> > using
> > >the existing PO format, which is very inadequate
> > for
> > >translators who can't read English or work with
> > >languages which borrow heavily from other
> > languages.
> > >I wrote instrans.php for our group of Quechua
> > >translators to solve their problems.
> > >
> > >--- Bruno Haible <br...@cl...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>Hello Amos,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>You can download it:
> > >>>http://www.runasimipi.org/instrans.zip
> > >>>
> > >>>See the documentation for the scipt at:
> > >>>http://www.runasimipi.org/instrans-en.html
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>Thank you for making this available. Yesterday I
> > >>looked at it, but am a
> > >>bit confused about the purpose of some features,
> > and
> > >>therefore whether
> > >>I should consider putting these features into GNU
> > >>gettext.
> > >>
> > >>The current plan is to use a syntax like
> > >>
> > >>  msgid "English"
> > >>  msgid[es] "Spanish"
> > >>  msgstr "Translation"
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >I would love to see this added to PO/gettext! It
> > would
> > >help our quechua translations a lot.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>- --msgstr: "Insert the translated phrases en the
> > >>msgstrs which are empty."
> > >>  This sounds to be useful for dialects, but the
> > >>usual way of working
> > >>  with dialects is that the user has several
> > entries
> > >>in the LANGUAGE
> > >>  variable, e.g.   LANGUAGE=3D"de_CH:de".
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >This is very useful for languages which borrow
> > heavily
> > >from other languages.  In Quechua, almost every
> > word
> > >related to computers is borrowed from Spanish, so
> > this
> > >isn't a dialectal difference. (I would really piss
> > off
> > >Andean linguists if I dared call Quechua a dialect
> > of
> > >Spanish!)
> > >
> > >The dialectual specification is useful in some
> > cases,
> > >but not in this case.  Every dialect of Quechua is
> > >going to use "computadora" (the Spanish word for
> > >"computer").
> > >
> > >If you want to accomodate indigenous languages like
> > >Quechua which borrow heavily from dominate world
> > >languages like Spanish, my suggestion is to create
> > a
> > >flag to copy directly from the dominant language to
> > >the target language (if the msgstr is an empty
> > >string).  Something like:
> > >     COPY language
> > >
> > >If no language is specified, then it would default
> > to
> > >the language of the msgid. If the translator
> > >
> > >For instance:
> > >
> > >#, copy es
> > >msgid "Print Layout"
> > >msgid[es] "Dise=F1o de impresi=F3n"
> > >msgstr ""
> > >
> > >Gettext would copy "Di&se=F1o de impresi=F3n" into the
> > >msgstr.
> > >
> > >
> > >#, copy
> > >msgid "Print Layout"
> > >msgid[es] "Dise=F1o de impresi=F3n"
> > >msgstr ""
> > >
> > >Gettext would copy "Print Layout" into the msgstr.
> > >
> > >
> > >#, copy es
> > >msgid "Print Layout"
> > >msgid[es] "Dise=F1o de impresi=F3n"
> > >msgstr "Nit'ipaq qhawana"
> > >
> > >In this case, gettext would ignore the COPY flag
> > and
> > >use the string "Nit'ipaq qhawana" found in the
> > msgstr.
> > >(Maybe gettext could give a warning message in this
> > >case to alert the translator that he/she forgot to
> > >delete the COPY flag.)
> > >
> > >Having a COPY flag in the PO/gettext format would
> > make
> > >life much simpler for our group of translators.
> > >Roughly 15% to 20% of the strings in our Quechua
> > >translation of AbiWord were direct copies from the
> > >Spanish. Everytime the Spanish PO translation
> > changes,
> > >we have to laboriously go through our Quechua PO
> > file
> > >and copy every change.  It is a real pain in the
> > neck.
> > > If gettext would do it automatically, it would
> > save
> > >us a lot of time.
> > >
> > >I noticed that PoEdit has a function (Alt + C) to
> > >directly copy the string from the msgid to msgstr,
> > so
> > >I think that a COPY flag would be used by a lot of
> > >translators (not just people working with
> > indigenous
> > >languages like Quechua).  When the msgid changes,
> > the
> > >msgstr will automatically change as well, and the
> > >translator won't have to laboriously change it
> > >everytime.  (In this case, the PO phrase will still
> > be
> > >marked with FUZZY to alert the translator that the
> > >msgid has changed, but he/she won't have to do
> > >anything except review the phrase to make sure that
> > >he/she still wants to directly copy the msgid into
> > the
> > >msgstr.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>Thus no need to use a separator, no need for
> > >>--replace.
> > >>- What's the purpose of --comment versus
> > >>--bilingual?
> > >>- Is --statusbar something of general interest?
> > >>- What's the purpose of --strip?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >I guess my documentation isn't very clear. The
> > >--strip, --replace, --bilingual, and --statusbar
> > >options in instrans.php are only useful for
> > >translators who want to make bilingual programs.
> > >
> > >These are features that are probably only useful
> > when
> > >dealing with indigenous or minority languages which
> > >are mostly oral and rarely written. In the case of
> > >Quechua, very few Quechua-speakers know how to read
> > >and write their native language. In school they
> > only
> > >learn how to read and write in Spanish.  It is
> > >probably the same for most African languages.  With
> > >the exception of a few languages like Swahili most
> > >Africans are only trained to read and write in
> > English
> > >or French or Portuguese, not the language that they
> > >generally speak.
> > >
> > >
> > >The --comment option is for inserting the PO phrase
> > >from an intermediate language into the comment
> > field
> > >of the PO file. This is used by translators who
> > can't
> > >read English. For instance, we inserted the Spanish
> > >translations into the Quechua PO files like this:
> > >
> > ># [es] Dise=F1o de impresi=F3n
> > >msgid "Print Layout"
> > >msgstr "Nit'ipaq qhawana"
> > >
> > >
> > >The --bilingual option is used when you want the
> > >msgstr to contain two languages.  For instance, if
> > you
> > >want to have both a Quechua and Spanish translation
> > in
> > >the msgstr:
> > >
> > >msgid "Print Layout"
> > >msgstr "Nit'ipaq qhawana | Dise=F1o de impresi=F3n"
> > >
> > >We needed this option for two reasons:
> > >1. A lot of owners of cyber-cafes in the Andes
> > can't
> > >speak Quechua, so the program needs to be bilingual
> > or
> > >they won't install it. They also have to support
> > the
> > >program, and they can't help the user, if they
> > can't
> > >read the menus.
> > >2. A lot of Quechua-speakers can only read and
> > write
> > >in Spanish, so they need the Spanish translation to
> > >learn to read their native language.  It sounds
> > funny,
> > >but this is the sad reality of most indigenous
> > >language in the world.
> > >
> > >What we found, however, is that the --bilingual
> > option
> > >made long strings which often didn't fit in dialog
> > box
> > >buttons. So we designed the --statusbar option to
> > >insert the translation in the statusbar. For
> > instance,
> > >the Menus would be in Quechua but the Status bar
> > >message would be the Spanish translation of the
> > menus.
> > >
> > >The problem with copying phrases from the menu to
> > the
> > >statusbar is that the menus strings contain
> > variables
> > >(ex: %s) and hotkeys (ex: &), but the statusbar
> > >doesn't contain these things.  So I designed the
> > >--strip option to get rid of hotkeys and the
> > --replace
> > >option to replace variables.
> > >
> > >OK, hopefully that clarifies.
> > >
> > >If PO/gettext is changed to add msgid[language],
> > then
> > >there is no need for the --comment option.
> > >
> > >The rest of the options are only useful for
> > creating
> > >bilingual programs. I'm not sure how many people
> > will
> > >be wanting to do this in the future.  What do you
> > guys
> > >think?
> > >
> > >Maybe the gettext documentation could have note
> > >pointing to instrans.php (or some other tool) for
> > >translators who want to create bilingual programs.
> > >There is a real need for bilingual programs. For
> > >instance in Latin America, speakers of Quechua,
> > >Aymara, Maya, Guarani, Mapuche, ...etc. would like
> > to
> > >see bilingual programs for their language.
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >Amos BAtto
> > >
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