VSTs doesn't really work
A system-wide equalizer for Windows 7 / 8 / 8.1 / 10 / 11
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Hi,
I'm loving Equalizer APO's capabilities. I'm exploring the VST functionality, because this is such a big feature, but I was let down to find out it doesn't really work with more advanced VST's.
I see that others have reported the same thing, where simple VSTs work but not VSTs with more complex processing. Any UI of the current signal also doesn't work.
I've tried simple VSTs, and there is occasional popping sounds when the VST is turned on.
I was wondering if this can be fixed? Having system wide VSTs working is absolutely huge! It would infinitely improve the kind of effects that can be used with Equalizer APO if VSTs work properly since it can be implemented by VST's instead of efforts by the developer. I would like to help out if time is a problem.
Thanks
Last edit: Brian Zheng 2019-06-16
I can see that the main problem with VSTs is that the user interface and the processing is running separately. This is the concept of Equalizer APO and its Configuration Editor, but VSTs are made to run in a single application and under the normal user account.
I have started work on a VST bridge, a separately running program that will host the VSTs and run under the normal user account. The audio data will be sent from Equalizer APO to the bridge via some kind of IPC and the user interface will be shown inside the Configuration Editor by seamlessly embedding a window that is created by the bridge.
This should greatly increase compatibility but will also have some overhead because of the communication between Equalizer APO and bridge, so the current mode will still be available for simple VSTs to allow for best performance. The bridge will also allow to use 32 bit VSTs under 64 bit Windows, which is currently not possible as 32 bit DLLs can't be loaded in 64 bit applications.
There remains some work to be done before I can release this functionality, however, so you still have to wait a bit. One problem is that normally a new VST instance is created after each configuration change, so VSTs will have to be reused somehow so their GUI can be kept.
I just want to say that this is truely amazing news, this make for example DIRAC with system wide correction possible! (the multichannel version of Dirac's VST will be released soon)
Do you have any idea about the extra latency that this VST-bridge method will cause?
I see that some people in this thread talk about VST-Hosts. Those programs couldn't be compared to Equalizer APO+proper/real VST support. What Jonas Thedering is working on will beat every possible VST-Host because of 3 reasons:
1. multichannel support (VST hosts+virtual cable are limited to 2 channels)
2. better latency
3. better sound quality.
Since your last post regarding this subject is 10 month's ago; do you have an update on this great upcoming update? Any information is welcome.
By this I also want to thank you for all the great development that you've put in the great Equalizer APO.
Just my 2 cents:
I did the following test:
Voicemeeter -> Element LT with Dirac VST (5.1 channels) -> Voicemeeter -> EQ APO
Voicemeeter -> Equalizer APO with Dirac VST (5.1 channels) (Dirac VST is working for filter switching & volume, gain and delay settings don't work)
Both ways had the same latency
3. If you keep the same resolution, I do not see why it would be better sound quality
Hi Alain Bijl,
Thank you for your comment, that is something that I like to try but I'm not able to.
Could you tell me how you got the Dirac VST with 5.1 channels to test multichannel? Do you work for Dirac or are you a betatester of the new Dirac Live Processor for Windows? Because only the 2.0/stereo Dirac VST is released to the public at this moment.. so I'm not able to test it yet, my licence has only stereo support and I just spoke to the customer support of Dirac and they told me that Dirac multichannel isn't released yet.
And I read this on the forum of VB-audio: https://forum.vb-audio.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=827&sid=c6c3e20031585dc682d83420bb62747d
"for the moment our virtual VAIO's Windows Recording Audio interface is limited to 2 channels by the system (the 8 channels are available only on Wnidows XP ... no-one knows why)."
For that reason I understood that more then 2 channels are impossible in Windows 10. Or do you still work with Windows XP? Whatever I tried, I couldn't get any VST host working with more then 2 channels because of this limitation in VAC, and I found noone who did... so you're the first. So what did you use as input?
And about the audio quality. Extra processing by an extra "mixer" such as Voicemeeter will always cause a degradation in audio quality. For example the Windows sound mixer is horrible: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/myth-or-reality-volume-control-in-windows.2031/ I coundn't find measurements of before and after Voicemeeter but it's impossible that the audio quality would be exactly the same, this since each type or processing/audio mixer degrades the sound quality somehow, this is simply an scientific fact but if it's audible yes or not is an other question. What arithmetic does Voicemeeter use?
But still I dont understand how you use Voicemeeter with more then 2 channels since from what I understood the max. is 2 channels because of the use of virtual audio cable and the same for Dirac at this moment, also only stereo atm.
Please let me know, I appreciate your support.
Dirac multichannel
I'm a beta tester indeed and that is why I know how to make it work. It is basically adding an xml file with your speaker config (up to 7.1) and then ir is multi channel. But since the beta is over there is now support for it until it is publically released. So the current Dirac VST version v1.2.3 breaks my 5.1 channel setup (so I'm still using v1.0.3). But it is working perfectly!
VAIO's Windows Recording Audio
That's only talking about recording, Voicemeeter perfectly outputs multichannel on my Win10 machine. But VM has a steep learning curve (so a lot of people have difficulty setting it up), but ones you know it, it is the best mixer there is IMHO.
Sound Qaulity
That is a thread from 2017 and talks about Windows 7. Yeah a mixer can 'degrade' the sound a bit when it mixes stuff (with win10/voicemeeter I do not think it is even noticable for an audiophile). But when you only play one stream and you keep that the same resolution (for example 48Khz input -> 48Khz Voicemeeter -> Dirac VST 48Khz -> output 48Khz) then there is NO changes to the original stream quality, only volume control (which is the same for any receiver).
BTW I use Voicemeeter because I need to control the volume, because my PC is my 'receiver' and is directly connected to an power amp. So if you do not need that, then Voicemeeter is of no use off course.
Screenshot of Element LT (VST host) and Dirac VST in multichannel mode and output to Voicemeeter ASIO Insert.
Dirac multichannel
I'm a beta tester indeed and that is why I know how to make it work. It is basically adding an xml file with your speaker config (up to 7.1) and then ir is multi channel. But since the beta is over there is now support for it until it is publically released. So the current Dirac VST version v1.2.3 breaks my 5.1 channel setup (so I'm still using v1.0.3). But it is working perfectly!
VAIO's Windows Recording Audio
That's only talking about recording, Voicemeeter perfectly outputs multichannel on my Win10 machine. But VM has a steep learning curve (so a lot of people have difficulty setting it up), but ones you know it, it is the best mixer there is IMHO.
Sound Qaulity
That is a thread from 2017 and talks about Windows 7. Yeah a mixer can 'degrade' the sound a bit when it mixes stuff (with win10/voicemeeter I do not think it is even noticable for an audiophile). But when you only play one stream and you keep that the same resolution (for example 48Khz input -> 48Khz Voicemeeter -> Dirac VST 48Khz -> output 48Khz) then there is NO changes to the original stream quality, only volume control (which is the same for any receiver).
BTW I use Voicemeeter because I need to control the volume, because my PC is my 'receiver' and is directly connected to an power amp. So if you do not need that, then Voicemeeter is of no use off course.
I'm really glad to hear you're working on this. However, I don't quite see how this will improve VST audio compatibility. Currently, many VSTs used under Equalizer APO have random popping sounds. I know performance and latency is a huge priority of yours, but could it be that there might be a buffer underflow? Windows sort of sucks with real time stuff. I'll take a performance hit and increased latency over high performing non usable VSTs anyday.
Hi,
I recalled that there is a SAVIHost and VSTHost programs created by Hermann Seib.
Website: https://www.hermannseib.com/english/savihost.htm
Lubomír
This is my workaround too. Definitely imperfect because you need to use a virtual cable with this, and there are just so many more layers of signal processing that could compromise the sound quality using that. Plus the inconvenience of needing to open a program to hear stuff.
Using the virtual Hi-Fi cable, the quality shouldn't be compromised, but the rerouting can be problematic in some cases and using of the VSTHost.
I describe how to use it on my blog, in regard to 432 Hz tuning: https://doingaudiorightly.wixsite.com/main/post/systemwide-retuning-to-a-432-hz-on-pc
I also used VSTHost + Virtual Audio Cable workaround to get VST working with EQ APO. However, I hear a large decrease in sound quality for some reason. It sounds like bit depth is reduced dramatically.
That's strange. Did you try increasing the buffer?
No, I will try that
By the way, I suggest avoiding clicking the Engine button. It caused a pop sound to me.
But I found out that there are more free VST hosting programs, so you could try some other one.
What is the bit depth of the VSTHost? Normally 32 bit variables are used to get 24 bit depth. Perhaps VSTHost uses 16 bit although not likely.
It's 32 bit and 64 bit.
Well, that's both quite enough. Some have mentioned that calculating with 32 bit floating point variables does possibly have a slight degradation but I'm certain under normal circumstances one can't notice this at all. Our hearing isn't as super fine-tuned as many think it is.
The sound reminds me of 8 bit, so it is dramatic.
That implies that something else is wrong. Mismatch between the VST host and the plugin?
Note that there are also double precision versions for both of those versions available (dvsthostx86.zip and dvsthostx64.zip)!