Thread: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age....
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From: Andrzej J. T. <an...@ch...> - 2003-01-28 00:36:12
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Jac said: > Has anyone (apart from me) ever worked with IBMs VisualAge for Java? > (Restricted version is available for download at IBM website) One of the > great features of it was the ability to visualy design a swing (or awt) > user interface and visualy wire the events generated by one swing > component to another one, or even better to wire events from beans to > beans. People either love or hate VAJ. I happen to hate it and don't believe in IDE's that try to be too smart (don't get me started on that topic...500M lines of quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months elapsed....and I doubt we could have done it with an IDE). I did a little code speed test once many years ago during an EJB course (before J2EE was even coined)....me with my editor/debugger...everyone else with VAJ. I wrote approximately 10x more code in the same period. VAJ doesn't even let you see the whole source for a class. Then again, if you have a VAJ itch, I believe your pharmicist can perscribe some creams to fix that. <grins> > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE that comes > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > enhance acceptance of embedlets. You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by such tools. It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world you always have to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for Visual Age > will stop in the (near) future. And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) Andrzej Jan Taramina Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions http://www.chaeron.com |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 01:12:17
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>I did a little code speed test once many years ago during an >EJB course (before J2EE was even coined)....me with my >editor/debugger...everyone else with VAJ. I wrote >approximately 10x more code in the same period. So what do you want.. a medal ;-) We don't all have 30 years of experience that dates back to beginning of computing eternia. Visual Development environments are popular for a reason, let me see.. what this is the most used dev environment on the planet.. Hmmm Visual Basic. BTW - its' an Australian thing to 'pay people out' so don't take offence. I am just saying don't write off Visual Development just because YOU* can do it better another way. It doesn't mean others who don't have your background can do it better another YOUR* way. When starting from scratch (experience wise) the Visual Developer gets results faster and I think this is what we are talking about here. I happen to totally agree that wiring diagrams quickly become like 'rat's nests' look at any PCB schematic! They really only have logic value for a very small number ~7 (magic number) elements wired together. After that a language takes over. But the thing is.. a wiring connectivity "language" is difficult to read actually - you have A connects to B Connects to A - The visual Representation makes more sense. (Does this look like UML yet?) Its becoming clear enough that embedlets themselves are java code written in language, and embedlet applications are XML connectivity schema with a visualisation viewer/editor over the top. James > -----Original Message----- > From: emb...@li... > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > Andrzej Jan Taramina > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:34 AM > To: emb...@li... > Subject: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > Jac said: > > > Has anyone (apart from me) ever worked with IBMs VisualAge for Java? > > (Restricted version is available for download at IBM website) One of the > > great features of it was the ability to visualy design a swing (or awt) > > user interface and visualy wire the events generated by one swing > > component to another one, or even better to wire events from beans to > > beans. > > People either love or hate VAJ. I happen to hate it and don't > believe in IDE's > that try to be too smart (don't get me started on that > topic...500M lines of > quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months > elapsed....and I > doubt we could have done it with an IDE). I did a little code > speed test once > many years ago during an EJB course (before J2EE was even coined)....me > with my editor/debugger...everyone else with VAJ. I wrote > approximately 10x > more code in the same period. VAJ doesn't even let you see the > whole source > for a class. Then again, if you have a VAJ itch, I believe your > pharmicist can > perscribe some creams to fix that. <grins> > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE > that comes > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by > such tools. > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world > you always have > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for Visual Age > > will stop in the (near) future. > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) > > Andrzej Jan Taramina > Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions > http://www.chaeron.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 01:21:46
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>500M lines of quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months elapsed.... 500,000,000 / (365 * 3.5) = 391,542 lines per day 391,542 lines per day * ~10 characters per line = 3,915,420 key bangs per day 3,915,420 key bangs per day / (86400 secs/day) = 45 keys stokes per second! Man... you really are a coding god! :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: emb...@li... > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > Andrzej Jan Taramina > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:34 AM > To: emb...@li... > Subject: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > Jac said: > > > Has anyone (apart from me) ever worked with IBMs VisualAge for Java? > > (Restricted version is available for download at IBM website) One of the > > great features of it was the ability to visualy design a swing (or awt) > > user interface and visualy wire the events generated by one swing > > component to another one, or even better to wire events from beans to > > beans. > > People either love or hate VAJ. I happen to hate it and don't > believe in IDE's > that try to be too smart (don't get me started on that > topic...500M lines of > quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months > elapsed....and I > doubt we could have done it with an IDE). I did a little code > speed test once > many years ago during an EJB course (before J2EE was even coined)....me > with my editor/debugger...everyone else with VAJ. I wrote > approximately 10x > more code in the same period. VAJ doesn't even let you see the > whole source > for a class. Then again, if you have a VAJ itch, I believe your > pharmicist can > perscribe some creams to fix that. <grins> > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE > that comes > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by > such tools. > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world > you always have > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for Visual Age > > will stop in the (near) future. > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) > > Andrzej Jan Taramina > Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions > http://www.chaeron.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > |
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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 04:20:29
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<laugh> I though he was being facetious... hay, wait... you both are! - Brill Pappin Rogue Robotics www.roguerobotics.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Caska" <ca...@vi...> To: <emb...@li...> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 8:26 PM Subject: RE: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > >500M lines of quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months > elapsed.... > > 500,000,000 / (365 * 3.5) = 391,542 lines per day > > 391,542 lines per day * ~10 characters per line = 3,915,420 key bangs per > day > > 3,915,420 key bangs per day / (86400 secs/day) = 45 keys stokes per second! > > Man... you really are a coding god! :-) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: emb...@li... > > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > > Andrzej Jan Taramina > > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:34 AM > > To: emb...@li... > > Subject: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > > > Jac said: > > > > > Has anyone (apart from me) ever worked with IBMs VisualAge for Java? > > > (Restricted version is available for download at IBM website) One of the > > > great features of it was the ability to visualy design a swing (or awt) > > > user interface and visualy wire the events generated by one swing > > > component to another one, or even better to wire events from beans to > > > beans. > > > > People either love or hate VAJ. I happen to hate it and don't > > believe in IDE's > > that try to be too smart (don't get me started on that > > topic...500M lines of > > quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months > > elapsed....and I > > doubt we could have done it with an IDE). I did a little code > > speed test once > > many years ago during an EJB course (before J2EE was even coined)....me > > with my editor/debugger...everyone else with VAJ. I wrote > > approximately 10x > > more code in the same period. VAJ doesn't even let you see the > > whole source > > for a class. Then again, if you have a VAJ itch, I believe your > > pharmicist can > > perscribe some creams to fix that. <grins> > > > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE > > that comes > > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by > > such tools. > > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world > > you always have > > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for Visual Age > > > will stop in the (near) future. > > > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) > > > > Andrzej Jan Taramina > > Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions > > http://www.chaeron.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > > http://www.vasoftware.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Embedlets-developer mailing list > > Emb...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > |
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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 04:04:30
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> > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE that comes > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by such tools. > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world you always have > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. That was one of my main problems with it as well, the code it generated was all over the place, and it was difficult get into the code once VAJ had created it. Frankly, I loved it when I first tried it... and it did have some "cool" features, but in the end I found I had to switch back. One thing I did like though, was how it managed *every* class and interface... and it forced you to view and think of the classes in an "OO way", which is why I still think it has value and I use it for teaching when I have to do that sort of work. Nothing forces a student to really *get it* than working in an environment that makes you think and work in OO and in java in particular. > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for Visual Age > > will stop in the (near) future. > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) Eclipse is the "new" VAJ. I am happy to say that I am far more impressed with Eclipse... not only have the removed a lot of the garbage, but your source tree/project structure is intact (you can even change its location, though not easily), you so can plug it into an existing project... even use CVS. It's good enough that I might even use it (VAJ fans can even make it look like VAJ)... only trouble is that its editor is not great (the text entry part is not "smart enough") and its missing a lot of the tools and UI enhancements that JEdit plugins provide. Its also designed for Java specifically, where JEdit allows me to work with anything (can you tell I'm a JEdit fan?). It also seems to have a very slightly funky environment that causes normal ant builds to fail (you can execute Ant targets in Eclipse) so you have to be careful how you set up Ant. I was also a little concerned about its strong tie to IBM (being an IBM product)... not that I mind that much, but it was a little disappointing and it worried me a little that IBM could start charging for it or do just about anything else to it, at any time. Anyway. You use what you use, I'll use JEdit, and other folks can use Eclipse. Umm... what do you use by the way? - Brill Pappin |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 04:23:51
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>Umm... what do you use by the way? I sleep with the enemy - J++ with Visual Interdev. Seriously I love being able to integrate Java with VB/C++ app's via COM. Microsoft's J++ technology is actually pretty darn impressive - in fact it was the nuturing ground for their entire .NET platform IMO. JC > -----Original Message----- > From: emb...@li... > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > Brill Pappin > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:02 PM > To: emb...@li... > Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE that > comes > > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by such > tools. > > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world you > always have > > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > That was one of my main problems with it as well, the code it > generated was > all over the place, and it was difficult get into the code once VAJ had > created it. Frankly, I loved it when I first tried it... and it did have > some "cool" features, but in the end I found I had to switch > back. One thing > I did like though, was how it managed *every* class and > interface... and it > forced you to view and think of the classes in an "OO way", which is why I > still think it has value and I use it for teaching when I have to do that > sort of work. Nothing forces a student to really *get it* than > working in an > environment that makes you think and work in OO and in java in particular. > > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for > Visual Age > > > will stop in the (near) future. > > > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) > > Eclipse is the "new" VAJ. I am happy to say that I am far more impressed > with Eclipse... not only have the removed a lot of the garbage, but your > source tree/project structure is intact (you can even change its location, > though not easily), you so can plug it into an existing > project... even use > CVS. > > It's good enough that I might even use it (VAJ fans can even make it look > like VAJ)... only trouble is that its editor is not great (the text entry > part is not "smart enough") and its missing a lot of the tools and UI > enhancements that JEdit plugins provide. Its also designed for Java > specifically, where JEdit allows me to work with anything (can > you tell I'm > a JEdit fan?). It also seems to have a very slightly funky > environment that > causes normal ant builds to fail (you can execute Ant targets in > Eclipse) so > you have to be careful how you set up Ant. > > I was also a little concerned about its strong tie to IBM (being an IBM > product)... not that I mind that much, but it was a little > disappointing and > it worried me a little that IBM could start charging for it or do > just about > anything else to it, at any time. > > Anyway. You use what you use, I'll use JEdit, and other folks can use > Eclipse. Umm... what do you use by the way? > > - Brill Pappin > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > |
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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 04:30:30
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> >Umm... what do you use by the way? > > I sleep with the enemy - J++ with Visual Interdev. Seriously I love being > able to integrate Java with VB/C++ app's via COM. Microsoft's J++ technology > is actually pretty darn impressive - in fact it was the nuturing ground for > their entire .NET platform IMO. <chuckle> Brave man to admit that here! To be honest, I started with J++ as well... first edition years ago ;) wrote pretty decent UI code too if I remember... bit of a pain that you couldn't edit it without messing it all up. Does J++ now support JDK 1.4? - Brill Pappin Rogue Robotics www.roguerobotics.com |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 04:48:03
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>Does J++ now support JDK 1.4? No but neither does muvium :-) JC > -----Original Message----- > From: emb...@li... > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > Brill Pappin > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:29 PM > To: emb...@li... > Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > > > >Umm... what do you use by the way? > > > > I sleep with the enemy - J++ with Visual Interdev. Seriously I > love being > > able to integrate Java with VB/C++ app's via COM. Microsoft's J++ > technology > > is actually pretty darn impressive - in fact it was the nuturing ground > for > > their entire .NET platform IMO. > > > <chuckle> > > Brave man to admit that here! To be honest, I started with J++ as well... > first edition years ago ;) wrote pretty decent UI code too if I > remember... > bit of a pain that you couldn't edit it without messing it all up. > > Does J++ now support JDK 1.4? > > - Brill Pappin > Rogue Robotics > www.roguerobotics.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > |
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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 04:30:46
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Hey James... when I reply to you, I get the list address in the To: field... how did you manage that? I'm wondering if I can get Outlook Express to do that ;) - Brill Pappin Rogue Robotics www.roguerobotics.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Caska" <ca...@vi...> To: <emb...@li...> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:28 PM Subject: RE: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > >Umm... what do you use by the way? > > I sleep with the enemy - J++ with Visual Interdev. Seriously I love being > able to integrate Java with VB/C++ app's via COM. Microsoft's J++ technology > is actually pretty darn impressive - in fact it was the nuturing ground for > their entire .NET platform IMO. > > JC > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: emb...@li... > > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > > Brill Pappin > > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:02 PM > > To: emb...@li... > > Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > > > > > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE that > > comes > > > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > > > > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by such > > tools. > > > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world you > > always have > > > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > > > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > > > That was one of my main problems with it as well, the code it > > generated was > > all over the place, and it was difficult get into the code once VAJ had > > created it. Frankly, I loved it when I first tried it... and it did have > > some "cool" features, but in the end I found I had to switch > > back. One thing > > I did like though, was how it managed *every* class and > > interface... and it > > forced you to view and think of the classes in an "OO way", which is why I > > still think it has value and I use it for teaching when I have to do that > > sort of work. Nothing forces a student to really *get it* than > > working in an > > environment that makes you think and work in OO and in java in particular. > > > > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for > > Visual Age > > > > will stop in the (near) future. > > > > > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > > > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) > > > > Eclipse is the "new" VAJ. I am happy to say that I am far more impressed > > with Eclipse... not only have the removed a lot of the garbage, but your > > source tree/project structure is intact (you can even change its location, > > though not easily), you so can plug it into an existing > > project... even use > > CVS. > > > > It's good enough that I might even use it (VAJ fans can even make it look > > like VAJ)... only trouble is that its editor is not great (the text entry > > part is not "smart enough") and its missing a lot of the tools and UI > > enhancements that JEdit plugins provide. Its also designed for Java > > specifically, where JEdit allows me to work with anything (can > > you tell I'm > > a JEdit fan?). It also seems to have a very slightly funky > > environment that > > causes normal ant builds to fail (you can execute Ant targets in > > Eclipse) so > > you have to be careful how you set up Ant. > > > > I was also a little concerned about its strong tie to IBM (being an IBM > > product)... not that I mind that much, but it was a little > > disappointing and > > it worried me a little that IBM could start charging for it or do > > just about > > anything else to it, at any time. > > > > Anyway. You use what you use, I'll use JEdit, and other folks can use > > Eclipse. Umm... what do you use by the way? > > > > - Brill Pappin > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > > http://www.vasoftware.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Embedlets-developer mailing list > > Emb...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 04:48:04
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Not sure.. I think maybe ted has flicked a switch somewhere? James Caska http://www.muvium.com 'Java Bred for Embedded' > -----Original Message----- > From: emb...@li... > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > Brill Pappin > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:30 PM > To: emb...@li... > Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > Hey James... when I reply to you, I get the list address in the > To: field... > how did you manage that? > > I'm wondering if I can get Outlook Express to do that ;) > > - Brill Pappin > Rogue Robotics > www.roguerobotics.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Caska" <ca...@vi...> > To: <emb...@li...> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:28 PM > Subject: RE: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > >Umm... what do you use by the way? > > > > I sleep with the enemy - J++ with Visual Interdev. Seriously I > love being > > able to integrate Java with VB/C++ app's via COM. Microsoft's J++ > technology > > is actually pretty darn impressive - in fact it was the nuturing ground > for > > their entire .NET platform IMO. > > > > JC > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: emb...@li... > > > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > > > Brill Pappin > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:02 PM > > > To: emb...@li... > > > Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found > another IDE that > > > comes > > > > > even close. I think having something like this around > would greatly > > > > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > > > > > > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is > generated by such > > > tools. > > > > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world you > > > always have > > > > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever > seen > > > > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > > > > > That was one of my main problems with it as well, the code it > > > generated was > > > all over the place, and it was difficult get into the code > once VAJ had > > > created it. Frankly, I loved it when I first tried it... and > it did have > > > some "cool" features, but in the end I found I had to switch > > > back. One thing > > > I did like though, was how it managed *every* class and > > > interface... and it > > > forced you to view and think of the classes in an "OO way", > which is why > I > > > still think it has value and I use it for teaching when I have to do > that > > > sort of work. Nothing forces a student to really *get it* than > > > working in an > > > environment that makes you think and work in OO and in java in > particular. > > > > > > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for > > > Visual Age > > > > > will stop in the (near) future. > > > > > > > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? > Guess > > > > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. > ;-) > > > > > > Eclipse is the "new" VAJ. I am happy to say that I am far > more impressed > > > with Eclipse... not only have the removed a lot of the > garbage, but your > > > source tree/project structure is intact (you can even change its > location, > > > though not easily), you so can plug it into an existing > > > project... even use > > > CVS. > > > > > > It's good enough that I might even use it (VAJ fans can even make it > look > > > like VAJ)... only trouble is that its editor is not great (the text > entry > > > part is not "smart enough") and its missing a lot of the tools and UI > > > enhancements that JEdit plugins provide. Its also designed for Java > > > specifically, where JEdit allows me to work with anything (can > > > you tell I'm > > > a JEdit fan?). It also seems to have a very slightly funky > > > environment that > > > causes normal ant builds to fail (you can execute Ant targets in > > > Eclipse) so > > > you have to be careful how you set up Ant. > > > > > > I was also a little concerned about its strong tie to IBM > (being an IBM > > > product)... not that I mind that much, but it was a little > > > disappointing and > > > it worried me a little that IBM could start charging for it or do > > > just about > > > anything else to it, at any time. > > > > > > Anyway. You use what you use, I'll use JEdit, and other folks can use > > > Eclipse. Umm... what do you use by the way? > > > > > > - Brill Pappin > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > > > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > > > http://www.vasoftware.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Embedlets-developer mailing list > > > Emb...@li... > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > > http://www.vasoftware.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Embedlets-developer mailing list > > Emb...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > |
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From: Andrzej J. T. <an...@ch...> - 2003-01-28 04:41:58
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James said: > So what do you want.. a medal ;-) OK...that would be nice, but pots full of money would be even better. ;-) > We don't all have 30 years of experience > that dates back to beginning of computing eternia. Visual Development > environments are popular for a reason, let me see.. what this is the most > used dev environment on the planet.. Hmmm Visual Basic. And how many Enterprise level systems are written using it? Very few and yet again, too many! ;-) Very few VD's (interesting acronym....apropos I would say. <grins>) end up as the oft-talked about 10x productivity types (of which I have worked and inspired many, and am considered one as well)...at least not till they leave the VD tools behind. Then again, why listen to me? I only have aeons of experience and the results to back up my thinking. I stopped using Basic (and it's derivatives, visual or otherwise) about 25 years ago. <grins> > BTW - its' an Australian thing to 'pay people out' so don't take offence. No offense taken....my reply was partly tongue in cheek so a response in kind was expected. Just my opinion is all.....and those are like sphincters, right? Everyone has one... > I am just saying don't write off Visual Development just because YOU* can > do it better another way. It doesn't mean others who don't have your > background can do it better another YOUR* way. When starting from scratch > (experience wise) the Visual Developer gets results faster and I think > this is what we are talking about here. But the quality of the code VD's produce is not very good, primarily due to lack of understanding of the underlying archetypes and models that are hidden by the visual metaphor. Beginners would be better off by using an editor and debugger along with a mentor and some design patterns (VB programmers have heard of design patterns, haven't they ;-) )....they may take a bit longer to get up to speed that way, but then they will be more productive in the longer term, and produce much better quality code too. Joel Spolsky has a great article on this syndrome: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html IDE's, especially visual ones promote the leaky abstraction problem. They are also, in my estimation, a futile attempt on the part of pointy-haired managers to turn jrs/intermediates into experts through the use of a tool. Unfortunately, it doesn't work, in part due to the reasons Joel mentions. Hotshot programmers typically find that IDE's get in the way and VD tools slow them down. One might infer that if you want to be a hotshot developer, then maybe throwing away the IDE/VD tools is a good way to get there? ;-) Anyway....I don't intend to discuss dev tools in public on this list any more...it's not germaine to the task at hand. Use what tools you will, so long as you can check in/out of CVS, it really doesn't matter to me. > I happen to totally agree that wiring diagrams quickly become like 'rat's > nests' look at any PCB schematic! They really only have logic value for a > very small number ~7 (magic number) elements wired together. After that a > language takes over. But the thing is.. a wiring connectivity "language" > is difficult to read actually - you have A connects to B Connects to A - > The visual Representation makes more sense. (Does this look like UML yet?) I agree with you there.....at a certain point the complexity of the diagram loses it's intuitive meaning. Mind you, code can be no better either, but if well structured can be more maintainable. The trick with diagrams is to use layered/encapsulated heirarchies where you can drill down into more detail as needed....so you only ever see 7 items at any "zoom" level....but I have yet to see a good VD IDE that can do this intelligently (some UML modelling tools are close though). > Its becoming clear enough that embedlets themselves are java code written > in language, and embedlet applications are XML connectivity schema with a > visualisation viewer/editor over the top. Exactly my vision of what they should look like! ;-) I'm thinking about the specs/standards for how the embedlet component and container looks (interfaces, lifecycles, contracts, etc.) and the XML connectivity and configuration schema. I'm hoping that others (Ted and you for instance) will build the visualization/editor on top of that framework. Brill then pipes up: > Frankly, I loved it when I first tried it... and it did > have some "cool" features, but in the end I found I had to switch back. Sounds like most IDE experiences I have heard of......they're like chinese food....satisfying initially, but soon you're hungry again. Eclipse is not bad though.....except that it will probably get stuffed full of all sorts of extensions that will eventually raise the complexity/footprint/learning curve to the point that it may become unuseable. Hopefully not. Editors and wimmin.....everyone has different tastes. Vive la difference. > Umm... what do you use by the way? Primarily JPadPro as my editor, Together for UML modelling, JSwat for debugging and Ant for builds. Most of my teams have used EMACS as their editor (on the 500K project....that was just an example to show that IDE's are not necessary for productivity...). But have been evaluating Eclipse as well. But, to misquote JRRT in Lord of the Embedlets: "One Outpost Container to rule them all, One Container to find them, One Container to bring them all and in the embedded darkness bind them" Let's get on with the quest, shall we? Andrzej Jan Taramina Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions http://www.chaeron.com |
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From: Jac K. <j.k...@th...> - 2003-01-28 07:01:01
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On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Andrzej Jan Taramina wrote: > People either love or hate VAJ. I happen to hate it and don't believe > in IDE's that try to be too smart Point taken. > VAJ doesn't even let you see the whole source for a class. Then again, > if you have a VAJ itch, I believe your pharmicist can perscribe some > creams to fix that. <grins> Thank you... :-) > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by such > tools. It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world > you always have to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I > have ever seen has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. We have been using VAJ for nearly two years, so yes I did have to maintain the code. It is not too bad a job if you use the same IDE for maintenance. Once you start using an editor on the generated code you're lost... > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) I'm not trying to recomend using VAJ. I was trying to point to the usefull part of it, the 'drag and drop' you application option. However given your preference for 'low-level' tools I don't think you'll appreciate it. (There are remedies for that itch as well :-) ) BTW, most of my development is being done on *nix machines using vi and whatever compiler/interpreter I need at that moment... Regards, Jac -- Jac Kersing Technical Consultant The-Box Development j.k...@th... http://www.the-box.com |