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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 17:36:56
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Yes... I don't use OpenOffice. What's wrong with plain text? - Brill Pappin Rogue Robotics www.roguerobotics.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Kosan" <tk...@ya...> To: <emb...@li...> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 5:58 AM Subject: [Embedlets-developer] RE: On with the quest! > Andrzej said: > > >Let's get on with the quest, shall we? > > Until today I was still unsure about whether or not we as a group were going to > be able to agree enough to develop an Embedlet specification and reference > implementation but, after the 'post fest' that occurred over the past 24 hours, > any concerns I may have had have disappeared. ;-) > > It took me 5 solid hours to read through and absorb all the traffic that you > guys generated (sheesh, was it a full moon or something!?) and there were a > significant number of absolutely critical ideas that were submitted. > > What I would like to do is to go back through the posts, extract these critical > ideas and then place them into one or more documents inside of the CVS. We can > then use these ideas as the tentative founding guidelines for the Embedlets > specification and the documents can be evolved as we move forward. > > > I have found that sourceforge's CVS system seems to work very well with > OpenOffice's XML file formats and I propose that we use these file formats for > our development documents. At least one advantage that these file formats > provide is the ability to save text, drawing and spreadsheet files in XML > formats that can be easily transformed into HTML snapshots for publishing on > the website. > > Does anyone have problems with this proposal? > > > Ted > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > |
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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 17:36:48
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> Another critical aspect that the wiring tool has is that the developer is > working with *live* objects, not just creating dead XML code. If one wants to IMO, this is the key to this system... setting it up "dead" would be fairly easy to do and doesn't bring any unique aspect.... which would put up my "So What?" radar. - Brill Pappin Rogue Robotics www.roguerobotics.com |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 14:55:29
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Hi All, This is an email I have forwarded from a PICLIST Thread.. Interesting one of the first questions was about .NET which is something I think we should consider also. Of course we are all in love with Java but J2EE is not that different from .NET and I am for one considering the requirements for an MSIL => Class file translator which would allow muvium applications to be developed in C#,VB.NET and also a debug API which would allow inplace debugging in C#,VB.NET (Gasp.. sleeping with enemy again!!!) The point is that we certainly should ensure our embedlet specification is able to work with .NET at some point along the chain and we should design for it if possible or is this simply an outrageous thing to say to a bunch of java die hards! I also forward this because I think it summarises quite nicely where we are at, where we are going and what we are doing (or at least I what I think we are doing) ============ Hi David, > So we can plug this Java based application into our VB.Net code ? Embedlets is still in its infancy, but yes, Embedlets are about plugging networked embedded applications back into VB.Net and J2EE backends in a seamless and object orientated fashion. Embedlets is at this stage an Open Source Experts group forging a specification which we hope to build a standard and reference implementation upon. That standard then creates opportunities for commericial adopters like ORBIT COMMUNICATIONS , which is a wireless connectivity company is bang on the 'wide-fan' vision of the Embedlets target application. > Then we can extract text from the objects to form a Logic > statements that we > can integrate into our C based application in the PIC ? The embedlets concept is a little more ambitious than this. Using the PLC analogy which is where this began, PLC logic can be considered as a subset of the Embedlets specification. In this type of application, the components of the PLC ie Counters and Relays and Comparitors etc, are all Embedlet's and the Ladder logic is like the Embedlet connectivity schema and the Embedlet container is where all these Embedlets execute which is a bit like the PLC Looping Runtime. It's alot to take in at once, but basically the idea is to instead of extract strings and implement some sort of interpreter in C' you serialise the object tree representing the PLC Embedlet application and upload it over the internet into the Java Enabled Device implementing the Embedlet Container which as a minimal platform will be the muvium uVM-877A which is a PIC16F877A Java Enabled device. Regards, James Caska http://www.muvium.com 'Java Bred for Embedded' > -----Original Message----- > From: pic microcontroller discussion list > [mailto:PI...@MI...]On Behalf Of Orbit Communications > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 6:26 PM > To: PI...@MI... > Subject: Re: PLC help > > > James, > > So we can plug this Java based application into our VB.Net code ? > > Then we can extract text from the objects to form a Logic > statements that we > can integrate into our C based application in the PIC ? > > Kind Regards > > David Huisman (CEO) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ORBIT COMMUNICATIONS - Wireless Solutions that Work > (Telemetry, Control, Monitoring, Security, HVAC ...) > > Website : http://www.orbitcoms.com > PO Box 4474 Lakehaven > NSW 2259, AUSTRALIA > Phone: 61-2-4393-3627 > Fax : 61-2-4393-3685 > Mobile: 61-413-715-986 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Caska" <ca...@VI...> > To: <PI...@MI...> > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:05 AM > Subject: Re: PLC help > > > > Again the embedlets specification is ALL about this, ie how to plug > wide-fan > > java enabled devices into backend J2EE databases. > > > > Example wide-fan scenario we are working on > > > > http://crusher.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us/~tkosan/java/embeddedjavascenario/ > > > > Again I encourage you join the email list just to listen in on the > emerging > > spec if you have not already done so ;-) > > > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/embedlets/ > > > > Regards, > > James Caska > > www.muvium.com > > 'Java Bred for Embedded' > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: pic microcontroller discussion list > > > [mailto:PI...@MI...]On Behalf Of Orbit Communications > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 7:03 AM > > > To: PI...@MI... > > > Subject: Re: PLC help > > > > > > > > > I appreciate your comments but we are not wanting to develop a PLC. We > are > > > developing a specific product that will enhance our Wireless > connectivity > > > products. It will incorporate many functions not available in a PLC. > > > > > > We are interested in the mechanics of how PLC logic is > presented to the > > > controller in a typical PLC but have no intention of reinventing > > > an existing > > > product. > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > > > David Huisman (CEO) > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ORBIT COMMUNICATIONS - Wireless Solutions that Work > > > (Telemetry, Control, Monitoring, Security, HVAC ...) > > > > > > Website : http://www.orbitcoms.com > > > PO Box 4474 Lakehaven > > > NSW 2259, AUSTRALIA > > > Phone: 61-2-4393-3627 > > > Fax : 61-2-4393-3685 > > > Mobile: 61-413-715-986 |
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From: Ted K. <tk...@ya...> - 2003-01-28 11:14:46
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James said: >Not sure.. I think maybe ted has flicked a switch somewhere? Yes, I flicked the switch. I decided to chuck the conventional 'list reply philosophy' after suffering through the amazing number of double posts that were generated recently! What I am unsure of, however, is whether the bulk of these double posts were accidental or not. I can't shake the suspicion that certain individuals on the list may have resorted to gorilla tactics when persuasion did not prove to be effective. ;-) Ted __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com |
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From: Ted K. <tk...@ya...> - 2003-01-28 10:58:17
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Andrzej said: >Let's get on with the quest, shall we? Until today I was still unsure about whether or not we as a group were going to be able to agree enough to develop an Embedlet specification and reference implementation but, after the 'post fest' that occurred over the past 24 hours, any concerns I may have had have disappeared. ;-) It took me 5 solid hours to read through and absorb all the traffic that you guys generated (sheesh, was it a full moon or something!?) and there were a significant number of absolutely critical ideas that were submitted. What I would like to do is to go back through the posts, extract these critical ideas and then place them into one or more documents inside of the CVS. We can then use these ideas as the tentative founding guidelines for the Embedlets specification and the documents can be evolved as we move forward. I have found that sourceforge's CVS system seems to work very well with OpenOffice's XML file formats and I propose that we use these file formats for our development documents. At least one advantage that these file formats provide is the ability to save text, drawing and spreadsheet files in XML formats that can be easily transformed into HTML snapshots for publishing on the website. Does anyone have problems with this proposal? Ted __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com |
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From: Ted K. <tk...@ya...> - 2003-01-28 10:27:14
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Andrzej said: >I think this wiring should be specified by an >XML config file. Which in turn could be generated >by a graphical tool for those that are so inclined. >[...] >So long as the GUI tool creates the underlying >Embedlet XML config file that can be then pumped >through the Embedlet configurator/builder. >[...] >> I do not see why we can not provide both mechanisms >>especially since they seem to be complementary. > >There is no reason we can't do both.... Ok, as long as the specification allows for both, I am satisfied. Andrzej said: >The embedlets XML file will likely be just a config >file that specifies the context for the embedlet >component, and it's linkages (which events it >consumes/produces, what JAPL device it talks to and the like) > >The graphical tool could just as easily set the >property values in the XML Config file rather than >using bean-based introspection and the like. and James said: >If we left this part to the bean persistance model >it would become transparent and I think we would loose >many benefits of the formalness of the underlying XML document. I think that there might be some misconceptions on how the wiring tool/ Long Term Persistence API combination works and perhaps this has caused us unnecessary difficulties. The long term persistence API is completely XML based. The XML files generated by it simply contain all of an object's instance variable values including any references an object has to other objects. All referenced objects are also included in the file. After the XML file is generated it can be freely manipulated either with a standard text editor or with any XML tool. If one wants to manually change the value of an instance variable then just edit its value in the appropriate tag and it is changed. If one wants to build a Java application by assembling XML tags from scratch then this is perfectly acceptable too. One way of looking at the wiring tool is that it just provides a way for non-Java-programmers to graphically build the XML description of an application without needing to know either Java or XML. Another critical aspect that the wiring tool has is that the developer is working with *live* objects, not just creating dead XML code. If one wants to hook a LightController Embedlet to a light, as soon as the LightController is dropped into the wiring area it is instantiated. As soon as it is wired to the Light peripheral the developer can turn the light on and off by sending the appropriate events into the LightController. The whole application can be configured and assembled in this instant feedback way and when it is done, everything is saved into a standard XML file. The technique of editing an XML configuration file (by whatever method) looses some of the instant feedback, intuitive-feel dimension that the wiring tool can provide. This is why I am pleased that people think there is room for both techniques in the specification. Ted __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com |
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From: Jac K. <j.k...@th...> - 2003-01-28 07:01:01
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On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Andrzej Jan Taramina wrote: > People either love or hate VAJ. I happen to hate it and don't believe > in IDE's that try to be too smart Point taken. > VAJ doesn't even let you see the whole source for a class. Then again, > if you have a VAJ itch, I believe your pharmicist can perscribe some > creams to fix that. <grins> Thank you... :-) > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by such > tools. It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world > you always have to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I > have ever seen has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. We have been using VAJ for nearly two years, so yes I did have to maintain the code. It is not too bad a job if you use the same IDE for maintenance. Once you start using an editor on the generated code you're lost... > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) I'm not trying to recomend using VAJ. I was trying to point to the usefull part of it, the 'drag and drop' you application option. However given your preference for 'low-level' tools I don't think you'll appreciate it. (There are remedies for that itch as well :-) ) BTW, most of my development is being done on *nix machines using vi and whatever compiler/interpreter I need at that moment... Regards, Jac -- Jac Kersing Technical Consultant The-Box Development j.k...@th... http://www.the-box.com |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 04:48:04
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Not sure.. I think maybe ted has flicked a switch somewhere? James Caska http://www.muvium.com 'Java Bred for Embedded' > -----Original Message----- > From: emb...@li... > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > Brill Pappin > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:30 PM > To: emb...@li... > Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > Hey James... when I reply to you, I get the list address in the > To: field... > how did you manage that? > > I'm wondering if I can get Outlook Express to do that ;) > > - Brill Pappin > Rogue Robotics > www.roguerobotics.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Caska" <ca...@vi...> > To: <emb...@li...> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:28 PM > Subject: RE: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > >Umm... what do you use by the way? > > > > I sleep with the enemy - J++ with Visual Interdev. Seriously I > love being > > able to integrate Java with VB/C++ app's via COM. Microsoft's J++ > technology > > is actually pretty darn impressive - in fact it was the nuturing ground > for > > their entire .NET platform IMO. > > > > JC > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: emb...@li... > > > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > > > Brill Pappin > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:02 PM > > > To: emb...@li... > > > Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found > another IDE that > > > comes > > > > > even close. I think having something like this around > would greatly > > > > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > > > > > > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is > generated by such > > > tools. > > > > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world you > > > always have > > > > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever > seen > > > > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > > > > > That was one of my main problems with it as well, the code it > > > generated was > > > all over the place, and it was difficult get into the code > once VAJ had > > > created it. Frankly, I loved it when I first tried it... and > it did have > > > some "cool" features, but in the end I found I had to switch > > > back. One thing > > > I did like though, was how it managed *every* class and > > > interface... and it > > > forced you to view and think of the classes in an "OO way", > which is why > I > > > still think it has value and I use it for teaching when I have to do > that > > > sort of work. Nothing forces a student to really *get it* than > > > working in an > > > environment that makes you think and work in OO and in java in > particular. > > > > > > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for > > > Visual Age > > > > > will stop in the (near) future. > > > > > > > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? > Guess > > > > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. > ;-) > > > > > > Eclipse is the "new" VAJ. I am happy to say that I am far > more impressed > > > with Eclipse... not only have the removed a lot of the > garbage, but your > > > source tree/project structure is intact (you can even change its > location, > > > though not easily), you so can plug it into an existing > > > project... even use > > > CVS. > > > > > > It's good enough that I might even use it (VAJ fans can even make it > look > > > like VAJ)... only trouble is that its editor is not great (the text > entry > > > part is not "smart enough") and its missing a lot of the tools and UI > > > enhancements that JEdit plugins provide. Its also designed for Java > > > specifically, where JEdit allows me to work with anything (can > > > you tell I'm > > > a JEdit fan?). It also seems to have a very slightly funky > > > environment that > > > causes normal ant builds to fail (you can execute Ant targets in > > > Eclipse) so > > > you have to be careful how you set up Ant. > > > > > > I was also a little concerned about its strong tie to IBM > (being an IBM > > > product)... not that I mind that much, but it was a little > > > disappointing and > > > it worried me a little that IBM could start charging for it or do > > > just about > > > anything else to it, at any time. > > > > > > Anyway. You use what you use, I'll use JEdit, and other folks can use > > > Eclipse. Umm... what do you use by the way? > > > > > > - Brill Pappin > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > > > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > > > http://www.vasoftware.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Embedlets-developer mailing list > > > Emb...@li... > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > > http://www.vasoftware.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Embedlets-developer mailing list > > Emb...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 04:48:03
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>Does J++ now support JDK 1.4? No but neither does muvium :-) JC > -----Original Message----- > From: emb...@li... > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > Brill Pappin > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:29 PM > To: emb...@li... > Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > > > >Umm... what do you use by the way? > > > > I sleep with the enemy - J++ with Visual Interdev. Seriously I > love being > > able to integrate Java with VB/C++ app's via COM. Microsoft's J++ > technology > > is actually pretty darn impressive - in fact it was the nuturing ground > for > > their entire .NET platform IMO. > > > <chuckle> > > Brave man to admit that here! To be honest, I started with J++ as well... > first edition years ago ;) wrote pretty decent UI code too if I > remember... > bit of a pain that you couldn't edit it without messing it all up. > > Does J++ now support JDK 1.4? > > - Brill Pappin > Rogue Robotics > www.roguerobotics.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > |
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From: Andrzej J. T. <an...@ch...> - 2003-01-28 04:41:58
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James said: > So what do you want.. a medal ;-) OK...that would be nice, but pots full of money would be even better. ;-) > We don't all have 30 years of experience > that dates back to beginning of computing eternia. Visual Development > environments are popular for a reason, let me see.. what this is the most > used dev environment on the planet.. Hmmm Visual Basic. And how many Enterprise level systems are written using it? Very few and yet again, too many! ;-) Very few VD's (interesting acronym....apropos I would say. <grins>) end up as the oft-talked about 10x productivity types (of which I have worked and inspired many, and am considered one as well)...at least not till they leave the VD tools behind. Then again, why listen to me? I only have aeons of experience and the results to back up my thinking. I stopped using Basic (and it's derivatives, visual or otherwise) about 25 years ago. <grins> > BTW - its' an Australian thing to 'pay people out' so don't take offence. No offense taken....my reply was partly tongue in cheek so a response in kind was expected. Just my opinion is all.....and those are like sphincters, right? Everyone has one... > I am just saying don't write off Visual Development just because YOU* can > do it better another way. It doesn't mean others who don't have your > background can do it better another YOUR* way. When starting from scratch > (experience wise) the Visual Developer gets results faster and I think > this is what we are talking about here. But the quality of the code VD's produce is not very good, primarily due to lack of understanding of the underlying archetypes and models that are hidden by the visual metaphor. Beginners would be better off by using an editor and debugger along with a mentor and some design patterns (VB programmers have heard of design patterns, haven't they ;-) )....they may take a bit longer to get up to speed that way, but then they will be more productive in the longer term, and produce much better quality code too. Joel Spolsky has a great article on this syndrome: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html IDE's, especially visual ones promote the leaky abstraction problem. They are also, in my estimation, a futile attempt on the part of pointy-haired managers to turn jrs/intermediates into experts through the use of a tool. Unfortunately, it doesn't work, in part due to the reasons Joel mentions. Hotshot programmers typically find that IDE's get in the way and VD tools slow them down. One might infer that if you want to be a hotshot developer, then maybe throwing away the IDE/VD tools is a good way to get there? ;-) Anyway....I don't intend to discuss dev tools in public on this list any more...it's not germaine to the task at hand. Use what tools you will, so long as you can check in/out of CVS, it really doesn't matter to me. > I happen to totally agree that wiring diagrams quickly become like 'rat's > nests' look at any PCB schematic! They really only have logic value for a > very small number ~7 (magic number) elements wired together. After that a > language takes over. But the thing is.. a wiring connectivity "language" > is difficult to read actually - you have A connects to B Connects to A - > The visual Representation makes more sense. (Does this look like UML yet?) I agree with you there.....at a certain point the complexity of the diagram loses it's intuitive meaning. Mind you, code can be no better either, but if well structured can be more maintainable. The trick with diagrams is to use layered/encapsulated heirarchies where you can drill down into more detail as needed....so you only ever see 7 items at any "zoom" level....but I have yet to see a good VD IDE that can do this intelligently (some UML modelling tools are close though). > Its becoming clear enough that embedlets themselves are java code written > in language, and embedlet applications are XML connectivity schema with a > visualisation viewer/editor over the top. Exactly my vision of what they should look like! ;-) I'm thinking about the specs/standards for how the embedlet component and container looks (interfaces, lifecycles, contracts, etc.) and the XML connectivity and configuration schema. I'm hoping that others (Ted and you for instance) will build the visualization/editor on top of that framework. Brill then pipes up: > Frankly, I loved it when I first tried it... and it did > have some "cool" features, but in the end I found I had to switch back. Sounds like most IDE experiences I have heard of......they're like chinese food....satisfying initially, but soon you're hungry again. Eclipse is not bad though.....except that it will probably get stuffed full of all sorts of extensions that will eventually raise the complexity/footprint/learning curve to the point that it may become unuseable. Hopefully not. Editors and wimmin.....everyone has different tastes. Vive la difference. > Umm... what do you use by the way? Primarily JPadPro as my editor, Together for UML modelling, JSwat for debugging and Ant for builds. Most of my teams have used EMACS as their editor (on the 500K project....that was just an example to show that IDE's are not necessary for productivity...). But have been evaluating Eclipse as well. But, to misquote JRRT in Lord of the Embedlets: "One Outpost Container to rule them all, One Container to find them, One Container to bring them all and in the embedded darkness bind them" Let's get on with the quest, shall we? Andrzej Jan Taramina Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions http://www.chaeron.com |
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From: Andrzej J. T. <an...@ch...> - 2003-01-28 04:41:49
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James shows his perceptive nature: > Man... you really are a coding god! :-) Obviously, that should have been 500K lines (not M, unless your a funny European type). BTW....I don't recall saying I wrote all the code....that would be impossible....3.5 man-years in 9 months? But thanks for the recognition anyway, James! ;-) Hopefully Outpost won't require such a big code base. > It's just a bit of fun about blowing one's trumpet :-) You can blow your own? Man....I'm impressed! Very useful skill for a techno-geek. <hehe> Andrzej Jan Taramina Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions http://www.chaeron.com |
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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 04:30:46
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Hey James... when I reply to you, I get the list address in the To: field... how did you manage that? I'm wondering if I can get Outlook Express to do that ;) - Brill Pappin Rogue Robotics www.roguerobotics.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Caska" <ca...@vi...> To: <emb...@li...> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:28 PM Subject: RE: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > >Umm... what do you use by the way? > > I sleep with the enemy - J++ with Visual Interdev. Seriously I love being > able to integrate Java with VB/C++ app's via COM. Microsoft's J++ technology > is actually pretty darn impressive - in fact it was the nuturing ground for > their entire .NET platform IMO. > > JC > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: emb...@li... > > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > > Brill Pappin > > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:02 PM > > To: emb...@li... > > Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > > > > > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE that > > comes > > > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > > > > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by such > > tools. > > > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world you > > always have > > > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > > > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > > > That was one of my main problems with it as well, the code it > > generated was > > all over the place, and it was difficult get into the code once VAJ had > > created it. Frankly, I loved it when I first tried it... and it did have > > some "cool" features, but in the end I found I had to switch > > back. One thing > > I did like though, was how it managed *every* class and > > interface... and it > > forced you to view and think of the classes in an "OO way", which is why I > > still think it has value and I use it for teaching when I have to do that > > sort of work. Nothing forces a student to really *get it* than > > working in an > > environment that makes you think and work in OO and in java in particular. > > > > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for > > Visual Age > > > > will stop in the (near) future. > > > > > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > > > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) > > > > Eclipse is the "new" VAJ. I am happy to say that I am far more impressed > > with Eclipse... not only have the removed a lot of the garbage, but your > > source tree/project structure is intact (you can even change its location, > > though not easily), you so can plug it into an existing > > project... even use > > CVS. > > > > It's good enough that I might even use it (VAJ fans can even make it look > > like VAJ)... only trouble is that its editor is not great (the text entry > > part is not "smart enough") and its missing a lot of the tools and UI > > enhancements that JEdit plugins provide. Its also designed for Java > > specifically, where JEdit allows me to work with anything (can > > you tell I'm > > a JEdit fan?). It also seems to have a very slightly funky > > environment that > > causes normal ant builds to fail (you can execute Ant targets in > > Eclipse) so > > you have to be careful how you set up Ant. > > > > I was also a little concerned about its strong tie to IBM (being an IBM > > product)... not that I mind that much, but it was a little > > disappointing and > > it worried me a little that IBM could start charging for it or do > > just about > > anything else to it, at any time. > > > > Anyway. You use what you use, I'll use JEdit, and other folks can use > > Eclipse. Umm... what do you use by the way? > > > > - Brill Pappin > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > > http://www.vasoftware.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Embedlets-developer mailing list > > Emb...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > |
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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 04:30:38
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> In many circles, accounting included 500M means 500,000 not 500,000,000.... What? where is 500M equal to 500,000? no really... I'm interested and not "taking the piss" as the British would say ;) - Brill Pappin |
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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 04:30:30
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> >Umm... what do you use by the way? > > I sleep with the enemy - J++ with Visual Interdev. Seriously I love being > able to integrate Java with VB/C++ app's via COM. Microsoft's J++ technology > is actually pretty darn impressive - in fact it was the nuturing ground for > their entire .NET platform IMO. <chuckle> Brave man to admit that here! To be honest, I started with J++ as well... first edition years ago ;) wrote pretty decent UI code too if I remember... bit of a pain that you couldn't edit it without messing it all up. Does J++ now support JDK 1.4? - Brill Pappin Rogue Robotics www.roguerobotics.com |
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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 04:25:43
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Not everyone uses the apps you do Gregg... For me, in Outlook Express (yes, I use it and like it) I get the sender and nothing else when I hit "reply". I get the sender and the list admin address when I hit "reply to all", with the list address itself in a CC field... it's a little wonky. it really is a bit of a pain, and since this is a development list, mostly what we have to say to one another is not private (it could be, but for the most part, it would defeat the purpose of the list). Anyway... I think we've all expressed our opinions on this subject by now... and since Ted is the list admin, he'll do what he pleases, and the rest of us (myself included) will just have to live with it. - Brill Pappin Rogue Robotics www.roguerobotics.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg G. Wonderly" <gr...@sk...> To: <emb...@li...> Cc: <emb...@li...> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] RE: Reply header > > >AKKK!!!! I just did it again :( > > > >here is the repost... > >----------------------------- > > > >Well, your the list manager, so set it up how you like.,.. ;) > > > >IMO - its not what I intuitively expect because I'm reading the mail in a > >particular place, and when I hit reply, I "expect" it to go back there... > >intuitively I mean. > > I have used MH for email since the mid 1980's. I have used EXMH has my mail > client since it was first created. I can telnet/ssh to my mail machine from > anywhere in the world and read my email and have instant access to all of > it... I am completely in tune with typing 'repl -cc all' to the shell when > telnet'd in, and I am completely in tune with typing shift-R when using exmh. > It just happens from habit. I have replied to 'all' more than any other > group. I find that I get a better 'default' to: list by doing that, and then > editing it. It's just habitual... > > I am not literally saying "Just deal with in Brill", but am suggesting that > everyone has to shape their world so that they feel comfortable. MH lets me > specify whether the default is '-cc to', '-cc cc', '-cc me' or '-cc all'. I > don't know much about the state of affairs in all these fancy pop-3 clients > (mh lets me do 'inc --host' to do pop access). So, I am not sure what to > suggest to you or others that have problems with reply and reply all. I can > only suggest that this whole issue existed back in the mid 80's and was > addressed, cussed and discussed at length. The current mode of sourceforge is > what was in use then, and has been in use largely everywhere that I've > participated on mailing lists. The exceptions being lists maintained by > people who just appear to deal with mail differently, and who may not choose > to have private conversations about list materials with the senders of > personally interesting or controversial topics... > > ----- > gr...@cy... (Cyte Technologies Inc) > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 04:23:51
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>Umm... what do you use by the way? I sleep with the enemy - J++ with Visual Interdev. Seriously I love being able to integrate Java with VB/C++ app's via COM. Microsoft's J++ technology is actually pretty darn impressive - in fact it was the nuturing ground for their entire .NET platform IMO. JC > -----Original Message----- > From: emb...@li... > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > Brill Pappin > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:02 PM > To: emb...@li... > Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE that > comes > > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by such > tools. > > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world you > always have > > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > That was one of my main problems with it as well, the code it > generated was > all over the place, and it was difficult get into the code once VAJ had > created it. Frankly, I loved it when I first tried it... and it did have > some "cool" features, but in the end I found I had to switch > back. One thing > I did like though, was how it managed *every* class and > interface... and it > forced you to view and think of the classes in an "OO way", which is why I > still think it has value and I use it for teaching when I have to do that > sort of work. Nothing forces a student to really *get it* than > working in an > environment that makes you think and work in OO and in java in particular. > > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for > Visual Age > > > will stop in the (near) future. > > > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) > > Eclipse is the "new" VAJ. I am happy to say that I am far more impressed > with Eclipse... not only have the removed a lot of the garbage, but your > source tree/project structure is intact (you can even change its location, > though not easily), you so can plug it into an existing > project... even use > CVS. > > It's good enough that I might even use it (VAJ fans can even make it look > like VAJ)... only trouble is that its editor is not great (the text entry > part is not "smart enough") and its missing a lot of the tools and UI > enhancements that JEdit plugins provide. Its also designed for Java > specifically, where JEdit allows me to work with anything (can > you tell I'm > a JEdit fan?). It also seems to have a very slightly funky > environment that > causes normal ant builds to fail (you can execute Ant targets in > Eclipse) so > you have to be careful how you set up Ant. > > I was also a little concerned about its strong tie to IBM (being an IBM > product)... not that I mind that much, but it was a little > disappointing and > it worried me a little that IBM could start charging for it or do > just about > anything else to it, at any time. > > Anyway. You use what you use, I'll use JEdit, and other folks can use > Eclipse. Umm... what do you use by the way? > > - Brill Pappin > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > |
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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 04:20:29
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<laugh> I though he was being facetious... hay, wait... you both are! - Brill Pappin Rogue Robotics www.roguerobotics.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Caska" <ca...@vi...> To: <emb...@li...> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 8:26 PM Subject: RE: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > >500M lines of quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months > elapsed.... > > 500,000,000 / (365 * 3.5) = 391,542 lines per day > > 391,542 lines per day * ~10 characters per line = 3,915,420 key bangs per > day > > 3,915,420 key bangs per day / (86400 secs/day) = 45 keys stokes per second! > > Man... you really are a coding god! :-) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: emb...@li... > > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > > Andrzej Jan Taramina > > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:34 AM > > To: emb...@li... > > Subject: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > > > Jac said: > > > > > Has anyone (apart from me) ever worked with IBMs VisualAge for Java? > > > (Restricted version is available for download at IBM website) One of the > > > great features of it was the ability to visualy design a swing (or awt) > > > user interface and visualy wire the events generated by one swing > > > component to another one, or even better to wire events from beans to > > > beans. > > > > People either love or hate VAJ. I happen to hate it and don't > > believe in IDE's > > that try to be too smart (don't get me started on that > > topic...500M lines of > > quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months > > elapsed....and I > > doubt we could have done it with an IDE). I did a little code > > speed test once > > many years ago during an EJB course (before J2EE was even coined)....me > > with my editor/debugger...everyone else with VAJ. I wrote > > approximately 10x > > more code in the same period. VAJ doesn't even let you see the > > whole source > > for a class. Then again, if you have a VAJ itch, I believe your > > pharmicist can > > perscribe some creams to fix that. <grins> > > > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE > > that comes > > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by > > such tools. > > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world > > you always have > > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for Visual Age > > > will stop in the (near) future. > > > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) > > > > Andrzej Jan Taramina > > Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions > > http://www.chaeron.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > > http://www.vasoftware.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Embedlets-developer mailing list > > Emb...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > |
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From: Brill P. <bri...@ro...> - 2003-01-28 04:04:30
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> > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE that comes > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by such tools. > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world you always have > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. That was one of my main problems with it as well, the code it generated was all over the place, and it was difficult get into the code once VAJ had created it. Frankly, I loved it when I first tried it... and it did have some "cool" features, but in the end I found I had to switch back. One thing I did like though, was how it managed *every* class and interface... and it forced you to view and think of the classes in an "OO way", which is why I still think it has value and I use it for teaching when I have to do that sort of work. Nothing forces a student to really *get it* than working in an environment that makes you think and work in OO and in java in particular. > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for Visual Age > > will stop in the (near) future. > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) Eclipse is the "new" VAJ. I am happy to say that I am far more impressed with Eclipse... not only have the removed a lot of the garbage, but your source tree/project structure is intact (you can even change its location, though not easily), you so can plug it into an existing project... even use CVS. It's good enough that I might even use it (VAJ fans can even make it look like VAJ)... only trouble is that its editor is not great (the text entry part is not "smart enough") and its missing a lot of the tools and UI enhancements that JEdit plugins provide. Its also designed for Java specifically, where JEdit allows me to work with anything (can you tell I'm a JEdit fan?). It also seems to have a very slightly funky environment that causes normal ant builds to fail (you can execute Ant targets in Eclipse) so you have to be careful how you set up Ant. I was also a little concerned about its strong tie to IBM (being an IBM product)... not that I mind that much, but it was a little disappointing and it worried me a little that IBM could start charging for it or do just about anything else to it, at any time. Anyway. You use what you use, I'll use JEdit, and other folks can use Eclipse. Umm... what do you use by the way? - Brill Pappin |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 02:04:30
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I know ;-) But in embedded circles 500M = 500 Million, 500,000 would be 500K It's just a bit of fun about blowing one's trumpet :-) JC > -----Original Message----- > From: emb...@li... > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > Gregg G. Wonderly > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 12:52 PM > To: emb...@li... > Cc: emb...@li... > Subject: Re: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > > >>500M lines of quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development > in 9 months > >elapsed.... > > > >500,000,000 / (365 * 3.5) = 391,542 lines per day > > > >391,542 lines per day * ~10 characters per line = 3,915,420 key bangs per > >day > > > >3,915,420 key bangs per day / (86400 secs/day) = 45 keys stokes > per second! > > > >Man... you really are a coding god! :-) > > In many circles, accounting included 500M means 500,000 not > 500,000,000.... > > ----- > gr...@cy... (Cyte Technologies Inc) > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > |
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From: Gregg G. W. <gr...@sk...> - 2003-01-28 01:52:21
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>>500M lines of quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months >elapsed.... > >500,000,000 / (365 * 3.5) = 391,542 lines per day > >391,542 lines per day * ~10 characters per line = 3,915,420 key bangs per >day > >3,915,420 key bangs per day / (86400 secs/day) = 45 keys stokes per second! > >Man... you really are a coding god! :-) In many circles, accounting included 500M means 500,000 not 500,000,000.... ----- gr...@cy... (Cyte Technologies Inc) |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 01:21:46
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>500M lines of quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months elapsed.... 500,000,000 / (365 * 3.5) = 391,542 lines per day 391,542 lines per day * ~10 characters per line = 3,915,420 key bangs per day 3,915,420 key bangs per day / (86400 secs/day) = 45 keys stokes per second! Man... you really are a coding god! :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: emb...@li... > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > Andrzej Jan Taramina > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:34 AM > To: emb...@li... > Subject: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > Jac said: > > > Has anyone (apart from me) ever worked with IBMs VisualAge for Java? > > (Restricted version is available for download at IBM website) One of the > > great features of it was the ability to visualy design a swing (or awt) > > user interface and visualy wire the events generated by one swing > > component to another one, or even better to wire events from beans to > > beans. > > People either love or hate VAJ. I happen to hate it and don't > believe in IDE's > that try to be too smart (don't get me started on that > topic...500M lines of > quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months > elapsed....and I > doubt we could have done it with an IDE). I did a little code > speed test once > many years ago during an EJB course (before J2EE was even coined)....me > with my editor/debugger...everyone else with VAJ. I wrote > approximately 10x > more code in the same period. VAJ doesn't even let you see the > whole source > for a class. Then again, if you have a VAJ itch, I believe your > pharmicist can > perscribe some creams to fix that. <grins> > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE > that comes > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by > such tools. > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world > you always have > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for Visual Age > > will stop in the (near) future. > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) > > Andrzej Jan Taramina > Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions > http://www.chaeron.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > |
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From: James C. <ca...@vi...> - 2003-01-28 01:12:17
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>I did a little code speed test once many years ago during an >EJB course (before J2EE was even coined)....me with my >editor/debugger...everyone else with VAJ. I wrote >approximately 10x more code in the same period. So what do you want.. a medal ;-) We don't all have 30 years of experience that dates back to beginning of computing eternia. Visual Development environments are popular for a reason, let me see.. what this is the most used dev environment on the planet.. Hmmm Visual Basic. BTW - its' an Australian thing to 'pay people out' so don't take offence. I am just saying don't write off Visual Development just because YOU* can do it better another way. It doesn't mean others who don't have your background can do it better another YOUR* way. When starting from scratch (experience wise) the Visual Developer gets results faster and I think this is what we are talking about here. I happen to totally agree that wiring diagrams quickly become like 'rat's nests' look at any PCB schematic! They really only have logic value for a very small number ~7 (magic number) elements wired together. After that a language takes over. But the thing is.. a wiring connectivity "language" is difficult to read actually - you have A connects to B Connects to A - The visual Representation makes more sense. (Does this look like UML yet?) Its becoming clear enough that embedlets themselves are java code written in language, and embedlet applications are XML connectivity schema with a visualisation viewer/editor over the top. James > -----Original Message----- > From: emb...@li... > [mailto:emb...@li...]On Behalf Of > Andrzej Jan Taramina > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:34 AM > To: emb...@li... > Subject: [Embedlets-developer] Re: Visual Age.... > > > Jac said: > > > Has anyone (apart from me) ever worked with IBMs VisualAge for Java? > > (Restricted version is available for download at IBM website) One of the > > great features of it was the ability to visualy design a swing (or awt) > > user interface and visualy wire the events generated by one swing > > component to another one, or even better to wire events from beans to > > beans. > > People either love or hate VAJ. I happen to hate it and don't > believe in IDE's > that try to be too smart (don't get me started on that > topic...500M lines of > quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months > elapsed....and I > doubt we could have done it with an IDE). I did a little code > speed test once > many years ago during an EJB course (before J2EE was even coined)....me > with my editor/debugger...everyone else with VAJ. I wrote > approximately 10x > more code in the same period. VAJ doesn't even let you see the > whole source > for a class. Then again, if you have a VAJ itch, I believe your > pharmicist can > perscribe some creams to fix that. <grins> > > > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE > that comes > > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > > enhance acceptance of embedlets. > > You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by > such tools. > It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world > you always have > to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen > has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > > > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for Visual Age > > will stop in the (near) future. > > And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess > the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) > > Andrzej Jan Taramina > Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions > http://www.chaeron.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Embedlets-developer mailing list > Emb...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/embedlets-developer > > |
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From: Andrzej J. T. <an...@ch...> - 2003-01-28 00:38:56
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James summarized: > Finally, we are talking > about wiring together applications consisting of pre-build embedlets > rather than for building the embedlets themselves so I think the wiring > approach works in this place. I agree......nothing wrong with a graphical wiring tool....so long as it is optional and generates XML descriptors, IMNSHO. Andrzej Jan Taramina Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions http://www.chaeron.com |
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From: Andrzej J. T. <an...@ch...> - 2003-01-28 00:36:12
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Jac said: > Has anyone (apart from me) ever worked with IBMs VisualAge for Java? > (Restricted version is available for download at IBM website) One of the > great features of it was the ability to visualy design a swing (or awt) > user interface and visualy wire the events generated by one swing > component to another one, or even better to wire events from beans to > beans. People either love or hate VAJ. I happen to hate it and don't believe in IDE's that try to be too smart (don't get me started on that topic...500M lines of quality 2EE code in 3.5 man years of development in 9 months elapsed....and I doubt we could have done it with an IDE). I did a little code speed test once many years ago during an EJB course (before J2EE was even coined)....me with my editor/debugger...everyone else with VAJ. I wrote approximately 10x more code in the same period. VAJ doesn't even let you see the whole source for a class. Then again, if you have a VAJ itch, I believe your pharmicist can perscribe some creams to fix that. <grins> > First time I tried this I was sold. I haven't found another IDE that comes > even close. I think having something like this around would greatly > enhance acceptance of embedlets. You ever had to maintain the underlying code that is generated by such tools. It's ugly and typically unmaintainable.....but in the real world you always have to dig into the code (every reasonably complex project I have ever seen has).....so the costs soon outweight the benefits. > The demo is 'old' as IBM is moving to eclipse and support for Visual Age > will stop in the (near) future. And so why are you recommending VAJ when it is already obsolete? Guess the GUI builder just wasn't that useful in the real world after all. ;-) Andrzej Jan Taramina Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions http://www.chaeron.com |
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From: Andrzej J. T. <an...@ch...> - 2003-01-28 00:36:02
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Brill said: > Like I keep saying... why does it have to be XML? there is no real > advantage in this application. Should you want to interface XML for > normalized transport to *external* applications, conversion would be a > fairly simple task... so again, why must the "native" protocol use XML? > What point to it except wasting memory, speed and bandwidth? There would be very little memory or speed wasted, and the packets would not be very big, so likely bandwidth would not be an issue either. > XML is best suited for static storage and transport of data between > *dissimilar* applications/processes... in fact, that's what it was > designed for. And embedlets will be connecting to all sorts of back end systems. J2EE, .NET, Legacy mainframe, and others. The whole world is using XML for this and it looks like it will only get more usage over time. Why fight an entrenched standard, that will confer more benefits than not, with little downside for the majority of situations? > I feel fairly strongly that we need a far more efficient and small/fast > protocol, which XML is not. Then you will be perfectly able to write your own embedlet protocol/packaging adapter to use for those applications that absolutely demand the ultimate in performance (most of which won't, in my opinion). Plus what Gregg said! I intend to ensure that we/I deliver an Outpost specification/container that has external communications based on HTTP and XML first. After that...go nuts! The architecture will be modular enough to support other transport methods. Andrzej Jan Taramina Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions http://www.chaeron.com |
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