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From: M. <du...@gn...> - 2006-05-09 06:46:41
|
=CEn data de Lu 08 mai 06 la 19:20, Luke Schierer a scris:
[snip]
> This move only minimally affects me, but would have a much more
> significant impact on you translators. So I'd like to leave this
> decision up to you. Can we please have an up or down vote, with
> votes to be mailed to the list by, say, Monday next week? If that
> does not sound reasonable, let me know.
Some reasons against Rosetta:
1) using Rosetta moves the translations away from Gaim to another site =20
where someone else maintains control
2) Rosetta is Ubuntu focused. Gaim is agnostic to Linux distributions =20
and should remain neutral to distributions and promote portability to =20
other operating systems besides Linux
3) translators that like Rosetta may use it and submit Gaim =20
translations upstream. Please don't force it to the others, for some of =20
us there's no need for yet another way of translating and yet another =20
login.
[snip]
I strongly oppose it.
--
.
/^)/_/(/
'
Thanks to Auke from the Xfce project for the arguments.
|
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From: Martin S. <mi...@fi...> - 2006-05-09 06:08:21
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Well, if you cannot fully explain what this would mean in terms of workflow and additional word or change of workflow for us localizers, then I cannot make a decision so I am fully against it. Lp, m. Luke Schierer pravi: > iAfter noticing that Ubuntu has several of gaim's translations > patched, extending them, Jordi Mallach proposed that gaim may want to > use rosetta, ubuntu's translation tool, as a means for managing po > files in gaim. > > This would mean a change in how you all access the po files, and > could well mean help in translating them, I'm unclear of the details > here. > > Information on Rosetta can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rosetta > > This move only minimally affects me, but would have a much more > significant impact on you translators. So I'd like to leave this > decision up to you. Can we please have an up or down vote, with > votes to be mailed to the list by, say, Monday next week? If that > does not sound reasonable, let me know. > > I have cc'ed Jordi, who should be able to answer any questions about > rosetta. > > luke > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > Gaim-i18n mailing list > Gai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-i18n > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEYDHDrWOw5NAxYd8RAoFAAJ9ICvtYdtKDQzTsECQ29XMLMAOEagCfVCLV 6cYnInowIfGmYdiHIfU5FFE= =tV65 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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From: Clytie S. <cl...@ri...> - 2006-05-09 04:09:41
|
On 09/05/2006, at 1:50 AM, Luke Schierer wrote: > Information on Rosetta can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rosetta > > This move only minimally affects me, but would have a much more > significant impact on you translators. So I'd like to leave this > decision up to you. Can we please have an up or down vote, with > votes to be mailed to the list by, say, Monday next week? If that > does not sound reasonable, let me know. Currently, I would not recommend using Rosetta. It still has serious access-control and quality-assurance issues. You do get more casual translators, but unless you have the tools to =20 manage that, and to make sure the translation is of sufficient =20 quality, that's more of a problem than an asset. Once these issues are resolved, it may well be a viable option for =20 individual projects. from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3m = =20 Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do) http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN |
|
From: Luke S. <lsc...@us...> - 2006-05-09 00:56:01
|
iAfter noticing that Ubuntu has several of gaim's translations patched, extending them, Jordi Mallach proposed that gaim may want to use rosetta, ubuntu's translation tool, as a means for managing po files in gaim. This would mean a change in how you all access the po files, and could well mean help in translating them, I'm unclear of the details here. Information on Rosetta can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rosetta This move only minimally affects me, but would have a much more significant impact on you translators. So I'd like to leave this decision up to you. Can we please have an up or down vote, with votes to be mailed to the list by, say, Monday next week? If that does not sound reasonable, let me know. I have cc'ed Jordi, who should be able to answer any questions about rosetta. luke |
|
From: Richard L. <rl...@wi...> - 2006-04-28 06:35:46
|
On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 11:07 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: > One example: Kopete AFAIK uses the term "Host:" for all the "Auth host" > (AIM/ICQ), "Pager host" (Yahoo), "Server:" (Jabber), "Login server:" > (MSN) ... host descriptions. Of course there are technical differences > between Pager hosts, Login servers etc. But is this really interesting > for users and translators to know the differences? I doubt it. Unless someone objects, I'd like to change all those (except maybe "Pager host", as there is also a "File transfer host" for Yahoo) and the corresponding port strings to "Server" and "Port". Richard |
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From: Richard L. <rl...@wi...> - 2006-04-28 06:31:26
|
On Fri, 2006-04-28 at 14:52 +0930, Clytie Siddall wrote: > If not, we can look forward to seeing contextual comments in the gaim > PO file, which will make the translation task much more viable. I've added a couple and will have them committed in a few minutes. Please e-mail this list if you find more strings that need comments. Richard |
|
From: Clytie S. <cl...@ri...> - 2006-04-28 05:22:16
|
On 26/04/2006, at 9:04 PM, Ethan Blanton wrote: > I sent quite a long reply to one of your > previous emails asking precisely how we can help, and suggesting that > we should perhaps make a more concerted effort to comment strings > which have caused translators difficulty in the past. This is exactly what we need. Thankyou. Is there any difficulty with using the current gettext commenting =20 process? If not, we can look forward to seeing contextual comments in the gaim =20= PO file, which will make the translation task much more viable. If so, I know Bruno [1] is very willing to work with developers on =20 gettext functions. And thankyou to Bjoern for bringing this up originally. It is an =20 important issue. from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3m = =20 Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do) http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN [1] Bruno Haible, as mentioned in a previous email, bruno AT clisp =20 =C4=910t org |
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From: Mark D. <ma...@ki...> - 2006-04-27 22:29:36
|
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:33:22 +0300, Shalom Craimer wrote > This is purely a point of pride, but I wanted to know - who do I > talk to about getting credit for the translation? It's still being > credited to Pavel... </hurt ego> Done. Sorry for the delay. -Mark |
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From: Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...> - 2006-04-26 11:34:42
|
Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom:
> >I think we're wasting a lot of time here to come to the conclusion that=
=20
> >some strings are just hard to translate. :-P
> > =20
> I can partially agree with your conclusion. But what is your suggested=20
> action?
Please read my previous emails. I spent quite some time composing them.
> Do nothing (no additional context information - comments in the source,=
=20
> no string changes etc.)? If yes, not Syd Logan is the lazy bum, but=20
> Ethan Blanton. You can also call people "conservative" which are not=20
> willing to make changes. ;-)
This comment is quite unfair to me, as you should know if you have been
following this thread. I sent quite a long reply to one of your
previous emails asking precisely how we can help, and suggesting that
we should perhaps make a more concerted effort to comment strings
which have caused translators difficulty in the past. To then turn
around and suggest that I want to do nothing because I am either a
lazy bum or too "conservative" is rather offensive to me, and
reinforces my belief that this whole thread is about whining, not
fixing things. I *want* to help fix things -- your original email
said "we need to change these strings, they're {hard to
translate,unbusinesslike,whatever}", and I pushed back against that
saying "these strings are OK, there may be bad strings, but these
aren't they ... how can we make this better?" This seems perfectly
reasonable to me.
> Read again what Clytie Siddall, Ambrose Li, Isriya Paireepairit, Vincas=
=20
> =C4=8Ci=C5=BEi=C5=ABnas and me sgested to change.
I saw no specific constructive suggestions for change, except you
wanting to remove cultural references, jokes, and flavor from Gaim.
Forgive me if I missed something.
I think it is clear (at this point) that there should be a comment in
the psychic plugin explaining in some abstract sense what a
disturbance in the force is, a comment in the TOC plugin explaining
that TOC is a protocol and the TOC plugin is no longer compiled (I
believe the latter is already in place?), and a comment above the
butterflies mating that indicates that that string is nonsensical and
need not be translated. Other than that, what we need to solve are
*technical* problems with the process, which is what several
developers have tried to come around to and been ignored. This
situation isn't going to get better if there isn't give and take,
here.
I think the most immediate solution which presents itself is to have
comments inserted in the source near strings which prove to be
problematic; if, after examination, it appears that the strings are
needlessly complicated, we can make an effort to change them on a
case-by-case basis. A beneficial step in this direction may be for
translation clarification questions to be asked on this list (some
have been, in the past) so that other translators and developers are
aware that the questions have been asked. This might also give us a
feel for which phrases are actually generally difficult to translate,
and which phrases may just run across an unfortunate idiom in a
particular target language.
Ethan
--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils]. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764
|
|
From: Elnaz S. <el...@fa...> - 2006-04-26 10:46:09
|
=D8=B1=D9=88=D8=B2 =DA=86=D9=87=D8=A7=D8=B1=D8=B4=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=87=D8=8C= 2006-04-26 =D8=B3=D8=A7=D8=B9=D8=AA 03:31 -0500=D8=8C Richard Laager =D9= =86=D9=88=D8=B4=D8=AA: > I'm going to repeat my question... How do we add comments for > translators that show up in the .po files? I hear them talked about > everywhere, but I have yet to find an example. My apologies if someone > replied and I missed it. Hi, I'm copying this from i18n guide for developers form gnome wiki (http://developer.gnome.org/doc/tutorials/gnome-i18n/developer.html) Below is a code example from line 42 in a file called foo.c: =20 /* This is the verb, not the noun */ g_printf (_("Profile")); =20 =20 This will automatically turn into this in the pot and po files: =20 #. This is the verb, not the noun #: foo.c:42 msgid "Profile" msgstr "" =20 =20 The first line is a translation comment. Just my two Rials ;), Elnaz |
|
From: M. <du...@gn...> - 2006-04-26 10:18:16
|
=CEn data de Mi, 26 apr 06 la 12:28, Bjoern Voigt a scris:
> Mi=BAu Moldovan wrote:
>> Stop it right there, man. This is a silly argument in sloppy =20
>> English. Everyone's time is limited and in particular, when it's all =20
>> about a free software project, we should care more about not wasting =20
>> other people's precious time. I don't question your good intentions =20
>> but this thread has gone far too far.
> What wastes more time? A long discussion without any results (without =20
> any improvements for translators) or a (may be shorter) discussion =20
> with good results for translators?
>=20
> Misu, do you want that I stop writing here and give away the German =20
> translation task? May be I should really think about this. I also =20
> worked for other open source projects with more success and more =20
> fun...
Take it easy, man... I meant you to stop trolling around in an endless =20
thread after so many developers have already explained their point of =20
view. And stop wasting other people's time. I have invested already too =20
much in this thread by just reading all of it and by responding twice. =20
I won't go further.
And happy translating too you all. I don't give a sh*t about Gaim being =20
translated in the languages of the countries near Romania, I only care =20
about one translation, the Romanian one. I know some of the people from =20
the Balkans involved in the i18n of free software and I very much =20
respect them and their work but I don't really care if Gaim is =20
translated by them or not.
--
.
/^)/_/(/
'
|
|
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-26 09:29:18
|
Mi=C5=9Fu Moldovan wrote: > Stop it right there, man. This is a silly argument in sloppy English.=20 > Everyone's time is limited and in particular, when it's all about a=20 > free software project, we should care more about not wasting other=20 > people's precious time. I don't question your good intentions but this = > thread has gone far too far. What wastes more time? A long discussion without any results (without=20 any improvements for translators) or a (may be shorter) discussion with=20 good results for translators? Misu, do you want that I stop writing here and give away the German=20 translation task? May be I should really think about this. I also worked = for other open source projects with more success and more fun... >> To see the current motivation of us translators look at:=20 >> http://gaim.sourceforge.net/i18n/ >> >> One problem is that we don't find new translators for the outdated=20 >> translations. > > Who's "we"? And why are "you" looking for more translators? The=20 > statistics reflect the reality, as far as I know. Are "you" looking to = > construct a different "reality"? One in which Gaim is translated in=20 > 1000+ languages including Sanskrit, Elvish and Klingon? What?? I don't want to have Gaim translated in 1000+ languages! Currently 21 translations have more than 90% translated strings. We have = 55 languages at all. (source: http://gaim.sf.net/i18n/) Important European languages like Bulgarian (your neighbor country),=20 Norwegian and Ukrainian don't have more than 90% translated strings in Ga= im! So don't tell me I want to have exotic translations for Gaim! Greetings, Bj=C3=B6rn |
|
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-26 09:07:24
|
Richard Laager wrote: > On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:18 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: > > I didn't say that we should change all these strings. A comment for t= he=20 > > translators would be good here. The "TOC" plugin is not compiled by=20 > > default. So it's nearly useless to have to translate the TOC strings.= > > I'm going to repeat my question... How do we add comments for > translators that show up in the .po files? I hear them talked about > everywhere, but I have yet to find an example. My apologies if someone > replied and I missed it. > =20 Thanks Richard for pointing this out. I think it would be a great=20 feature for gettext to have special comments which appear also in .po=20 files. IFAIK this is only possible for flags (c-format etc.). The gettext info page says, developers should write normal C comments: http://punt.sourceforge.net/gettext/gettext_3.html#SEC20 May be we can suggest something better for gettext. Bruno Haible (bruno=20 (at) clisp (at) org) seams to be the current gettext maintainer. > > You may not want to hear it, but Gaim's i18n strings are much more te= chnical compared with Kopete. > > If you have specific suggestions of ways to reduce the technical nature= > of the strings without reducing their usefulness, I'd love to hear them= =2E > =20 One example: Kopete AFAIK uses the term "Host:" for all the "Auth host"=20 (AIM/ICQ), "Pager host" (Yahoo), "Server:" (Jabber), "Login server:"=20 (MSN) ... host descriptions. Of course there are technical differences=20 between Pager hosts, Login servers etc. But is this really interesting=20 for users and translators to know the differences? Greetings, Bj=F6rn |
|
From: M. <du...@gn...> - 2006-04-26 08:56:38
|
=CEn data de Mi, 26 apr 06 la 11:18, Bjoern Voigt a scris: [snip] > Ethan, do you ever translated with Gettext tools? Stop it right there, man. This is a silly argument in sloppy English. =20 Everyone's time is limited and in particular, when it's all about a =20 free software project, we should care more about not wasting other =20 people's precious time. I don't question your good intentions but this =20 thread has gone far too far. > I think a complete translation takes much time. The German Gaim 1.5.0 =20 > to 2.0.0 translation caused some days work for two translators =20 > (Jochen Kemnade and me). I think more context information (i18n =20 > comments in the source) and some string changes for bad and too =20 > technical strings would speed up the translations and would improve =20 > our motivation. I agree with you, it took a lot of time for me too. However, creatively =20 translating the "butterfly mating" and "star wars" strings turned out =20 to be refreshing interludes in what was mostly a quite boring process. =20 And yes, cookies are delicious delicacies :P > To see the current motivation of us translators look at: =20 > http://gaim.sourceforge.net/i18n/ >=20 > One problem is that we don't find new translators for the outdated =20 > translations. Who's "we"? And why are "you" looking for more translators? The =20 statistics reflect the reality, as far as I know. Are "you" looking to =20 construct a different "reality"? One in which Gaim is translated in =20 1000+ languages including Sanskrit, Elvish and Klingon? [snip] -- . /^)/_/(/ ' |
|
From: Richard L. <rl...@wi...> - 2006-04-26 08:34:44
|
On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:18 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: > I didn't say that we should change all these strings. A comment for the > translators would be good here. The "TOC" plugin is not compiled by > default. So it's nearly useless to have to translate the TOC strings. I'm going to repeat my question... How do we add comments for translators that show up in the .po files? I hear them talked about everywhere, but I have yet to find an example. My apologies if someone replied and I missed it. > You > may not want to hear it, but Gaim's i18n strings are much more technical > compared with Kopete. If you have specific suggestions of ways to reduce the technical nature of the strings without reducing their usefulness, I'd love to hear them. Richard |
|
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-26 08:18:37
|
Good morning all!
Ethan Blanton wrote:
> If we're keeping score (which I guess we aren't, because the scores are=
meaningless), it took me about 30 seconds to answer it completely and co=
rrectly when I read your first email.
> =20
But I don't wanted to make a survey with multiple choice answers. I=20
wanted to make a test which shows you (especially the developers) how=20
much work it can be to translate i18n strings in Gaim. Translating is=20
not like filling out a multiple choice test. Translating with Gettext is =
instead:
1. search the an untranslated or fuzzy string (.po file editors make
this with a key or menu item)
2. decide, if it's possible to translate the string directly or with
using the context
* directly: translate it
* with context: display the source code, search for comments
there (you can skip this task because in the majority of
cases there aren't comments!), search for explanation in the
web, in Google, discuss here, in #gaim etc.
3. spell check the translated string
4. go to the next string (step 1)
5. check the whole translation (syntax checks, compilation of Gaim,
usage tests, test key strokes etc.)
Ethan, do you ever translated with Gettext tools?
I think a complete translation takes much time. The German Gaim 1.5.0 to =
2.0.0 translation caused some days work for two translators (Jochen=20
Kemnade and me). I think more context information (i18n comments in the=20
source) and some string changes for bad and too technical strings would=20
speed up the translations and would improve our motivation.
To see the current motivation of us translators look at:=20
http://gaim.sourceforge.net/i18n/
One problem is that we don't find new translators for the outdated=20
translations.
> > Master solution:
> > >1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in=20
> > >src/gtkaccount.c:1297?
> > Best answer:
> >=20
> > Richard wrote: "It's in a callback function that's registered as a=
> > pop-up handler for the port entry field in proxy options.
> > Right-click on that field and you'll see the string. I'd assume
> > easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen this code before I looked at i=
t
> > just now.)"
> >=20
> > Unfortunately I was not able to test it. Right-clicking on the por=
t
> > entry field shows a popup menu. But this popup menu only contains
> > GTK+ things (cut, copy, paste, Input methods etc.), nothing about
> > butterflies. May be it's "dead code" :-(
>
> It's not, it works fine on my machine. I don't know why yours doesn't.=
> =20
Ambrose Li wrote me an instruction (thanks Ambrose Li):
: You need to -
:=20
: - go to the Accounts window,
: - add/modify an account
: - make sure that proxy setting is "HTTP" (or maybe something else but
: it has to has a "Proxy Port")
: - expand the proxy settings, then
: - right-click inside the text field of the "Proxy Port".
This works (I can see the butterflies). :-)
> > >3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?
> > Best Answer:
> >=20
> > Ambrose Li said: "A TOC server. TOC is an AIM protocol. A host is =
a
> > computer. Literally a computer talking the TOC protocol, but the
> > context requires it to be a server, and in the DOS/Windows world
> > (since this is AIM) the word "host" traditionally only refers to
> > servers."
>
> So, what do you propose we change here? TOC is a technical term for
> which any euphemism is only going to make things worse, not better.
> =20
I didn't say that we should change all these strings. A comment for the=20
translators would be good here. The "TOC" plugin is not compiled by=20
default. So it's nearly useless to have to translate the TOC strings.
> > >4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 a=
nd=20
> > >src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?
> > Best Answer:
> >=20
> > Richard wrote: "The process of negotiating an SSL connection faile=
d."
> > Read this long SSL handshake description from Microsoft
> > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q257591/
> > (Netscape made the SSL protocol and more detailed information can =
be
> > found there.)
>
> Again, what would you propose we change here? The Windows/OSX/GNOME
> solution might be "just tell the user the connection failed, they
> don't need to know why", but this is not acceptable to me.
> "Handshake" is a technical term which is being used correctly. It is
> not clear to me that there is a better translation for this, either.
> =20
I repeat: I didn't say that we should change all these strings. A=20
comment for the translators would be good here.
> > >5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?
> > Best Answer:
> >=20
> > Ambrose Li wrote: "Short answer (looking at my po file): Some kind=
of=20
> > user authentication token
> > for the channel"
> > Richard wrote: "... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear =
(given=20
> > Channel Topic
> > is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat=
"."
> >=20
> > I personally think that the channel HMAC is a unique id for a chat=
=20
> > channel. It's possible to calculate such an unique id with the HMA=
C-MD5=20
> > or HZMAC-SHA1 digest algorithms.
>
> That's not at all the case ... HMAC is, once again, a technical term
> with a specific meaning. (Basically, a keyed hash function, such that
> two parties who have agreed on a shared secret can authenticate a
> chunk of data of arbitrary size by calculating a MAC across it and
> some function of the secret.) A third time, removing this bit of text
> removes important information that clueful users may be able to make
> sense of. What would you suggest?
> =20
Thanks for explanation. I can not suggest anything here now. May be we=20
should look at other SILC clients.
Looking at other IM projects and their translation can be interesting=20
for us. Kopete for instance also has 2765 i18n strings (~2578 Gaim). So=20
the amount of strings is not the main special problem in Gaim-i18n. You=20
may not want to hear it, but Gaim's i18n strings are much more technical =
compared with Kopete. I also searched for difficult or deep-technical=20
i18n strings in Kopete but I didn't found much good examples. To be=20
honest, i18n comments are also seldom in Kopete - not good. Look yourself=
:
http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/l10n/en_GB/messages/kdenetwork/kopete.po?rev=3D=
519677&view=3Dmarkup=20
(British English)
> I think we're wasting a lot of time here to come to the conclusion that=
some strings are just hard to translate. :-P
> =20
I can partially agree with your conclusion. But what is your suggested=20
action?
Do nothing (no additional context information - comments in the source,=20
no string changes etc.)? If yes, not Syd Logan is the lazy bum, but=20
Ethan Blanton. You can also call people "conservative" which are not=20
willing to make changes. ;-)
Read again what Clytie Siddall, Ambrose Li, Isriya Paireepairit, Vincas=20
=C4=8Ci=C5=BEi=C5=ABnas and me sgested to change.
Greetings, Bj=C3=B6rn
|
|
From: Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...> - 2006-04-25 22:56:24
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Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom: > Ethan Blanton wrote: > >Let's back up the horsie a bit ... where were the "many false or > >improper answers" ? I think you're making things up again, and quite > >frankly I'm getting tired of it. > Ok, ok. Let's write down a master solution. I do not review every single= =20 > answer here and give points etc. :-) I counted four people which solved= =20 > the survey. One of them did not wrote his message on this list. Thanks=20 > for all which filled out this survey. >=20 > Look, the survey contained 6 strings and one SVN comment. How long you=20 > needed for the survey (incl. discussion, Google searching, source code=20 > viewing etc.)? I needed around 30 min for collecting the ansers. If we're keeping score (which I guess we aren't, because the scores are meaningless), it took me about 30 seconds to answer it completely and correctly when I read your first email. > Gaim has corrently 2578 i18n strings! The majority of them are not so=20 > difficult. But please don't make the translation task too hard. Please don't ask us to make Gaim poorer because some strings don't have an immediate naive and correct translation. :-P > Master solution: > >1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in=20 > >src/gtkaccount.c:1297? > Best answer: >=20 > Richard wrote: "It's in a callback function that's registered as a > pop-up handler for the port entry field in proxy options. > Right-click on that field and you'll see the string. I'd assume > easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen this code before I looked at it > just now.)" >=20 > Unfortunately I was not able to test it. Right-clicking on the port > entry field shows a popup menu. But this popup menu only contains > GTK+ things (cut, copy, paste, Input methods etc.), nothing about > butterflies. May be it's "dead code" :-( It's not, it works fine on my machine. I don't know why yours doesn't. > >3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c? > Best Answer: >=20 > Ambrose Li said: "A TOC server. TOC is an AIM protocol. A host is a > computer. Literally a computer talking the TOC protocol, but the > context requires it to be a server, and in the DOS/Windows world > (since this is AIM) the word "host" traditionally only refers to > servers." So, what do you propose we change here? TOC is a technical term for which any euphemism is only going to make things worse, not better. > >4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and= =20 > >src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean? > Best Answer: >=20 > Richard wrote: "The process of negotiating an SSL connection failed." > Read this long SSL handshake description from Microsoft > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q257591/ > (Netscape made the SSL protocol and more detailed information can be > found there.) Again, what would you propose we change here? The Windows/OSX/GNOME solution might be "just tell the user the connection failed, they don't need to know why", but this is not acceptable to me. "Handshake" is a technical term which is being used correctly. It is not clear to me that there is a better translation for this, either. > >5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c? > Best Answer: >=20 > Ambrose Li wrote: "Short answer (looking at my po file): Some kind of= =20 > user authentication token > for the channel" > Richard wrote: "... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear (giv= en=20 > Channel Topic > is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat"." >=20 > I personally think that the channel HMAC is a unique id for a chat=20 > channel. It's possible to calculate such an unique id with the HMAC-MD= 5=20 > or HZMAC-SHA1 digest algorithms. That's not at all the case ... HMAC is, once again, a technical term with a specific meaning. (Basically, a keyed hash function, such that two parties who have agreed on a shared secret can authenticate a chunk of data of arbitrary size by calculating a MAC across it and some function of the secret.) A third time, removing this bit of text removes important information that clueful users may be able to make sense of. What would you suggest? I think we're wasting a lot of time here to come to the conclusion that some strings are just hard to translate. :-P Ethan --=20 The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy for evils]. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764 |
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From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-25 22:16:30
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Ethan Blanton wrote:
> Let's back up the horsie a bit ... where were the "many false or
> improper answers" ? I think you're making things up again, and quite
> frankly I'm getting tired of it.
Ok, ok. Let's write down a master solution. I do not review every single =
answer here and give points etc. :-) I counted four people which solved=20
the survey. One of them did not wrote his message on this list. Thanks=20
for all which filled out this survey.
Look, the survey contained 6 strings and one SVN comment. How long you=20
needed for the survey (incl. discussion, Google searching, source code=20
viewing etc.)? I needed around 30 min for collecting the ansers.
Gaim has corrently 2578 i18n strings! The majority of them are not so=20
difficult. But please don't make the translation task too hard.
Master solution:
> 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in=20
> src/gtkaccount.c:1297?
Best answer:
Richard wrote: "It's in a callback function that's registered as a
pop-up handler for the port entry field in proxy options.
Right-click on that field and you'll see the string. I'd assume
easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen this code before I looked at it
just now.)"
Unfortunately I was not able to test it. Right-clicking on the port
entry field shows a popup menu. But this popup menu only contains
GTK+ things (cut, copy, paste, Input methods etc.), nothing about
butterflies. May be it's "dead code" :-(
> 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100=
?
Best Answer:
Rob Flynn introduced the "lazy bum" comment on Syd Logan in the
AUTHORS file at 03/17/2001. He didn't wrote an useful CVS comment
for this change. So it's unclear, why he wrote it. Shalom thinks
"Because he stopped working on Gaim :-)". Luke thinks "Oh, and then
he went to AOL to work on winaim. He deserves some grief for that
:-P " Probably only Rob knows the right answer.
> 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?
Best Answer:
Ambrose Li said: "A TOC server. TOC is an AIM protocol. A host is a
computer. Literally a computer talking the TOC protocol, but the
context requires it to be a server, and in the DOS/Windows world
(since this is AIM) the word "host" traditionally only refers to
servers."
> 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and =
> src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?
Best Answer:
Richard wrote: "The process of negotiating an SSL connection failed."=
Read this long SSL handshake description from Microsoft
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q257591/
(Netscape made the SSL protocol and more detailed information can be
found there.)
> 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?
Best Answer:
Ambrose Li wrote: "Short answer (looking at my po file): Some kind of=
user authentication token
for the channel"
Richard wrote: "... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear (gi=
ven Channel Topic
is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat"."=
I personally think that the channel HMAC is a unique id for a chat ch=
annel. It's possible to calculate such an unique id with the HMAC-MD5 or =
HZMAC-SHA1 digest algorithms.
But to be honest, I don't know, who has the right answer. Help yourse=
lf:
=20
* http://silcnet.org/docs/toolkit/silchmac.html
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAC
> 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in=20
> plugins/psychic.c means?
Best Answer:
It has two meanings.
First meaning: Richard wrote: "Feels like a Star Wars quote to me
and Google confirms that."
Second meaning: I wrote: "If a buddy begins to type a message to you
a conversation window appears (with this message)"
> 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin?
>
> "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we=20
> should at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99."
>
> (from svn log plugins/psychic.c)
Best Answer:
Luke wrote: "The psychic mode plugin detects that someone is _about_
to send you a message. more technically, it catches the typing
notification being sent as they type the first message, before you
have (short of the plugin) seen anything to indicate their
attention. It isn't quitethe same as the stalker behaviors above."
Greetings, Bj=F6rn
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From: Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...> - 2006-04-25 21:22:05
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Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom: > Yes of course we have many such problematic strings in Gaim. My samples= =20 > only show some of them. The following is possibly a useful thing to consider; changing these particular strings was not. > The point is that our information flow is not optimal in i18n issues: >=20 > 1. A single translator finds a problematic string in his .po file. > 2. He tries to get an explanation in #gaim, Google or in this list. > 3. Someone gives him an explanation and he translates the string. > 4. Nobody changes the source code (no string changes, no comments). This, it would seem, is where we could make the most effective changes. When a string or phrase is unclear and requires clarification, if changing the string is not the best solution (as it is not for the strings you have brought up), a clarifying comment should be added to the code which the next translator will see. In several of your second set of examples, the strings which seem to have given you trouble contain technical terms which should probably remain (e.g., TOC and HMAC), but may need clarification for the translator. Both of those strings are things that users either a) should not see (a busted HMAC is a serious problem that shouldn't happen under normal circumstances), or b) shoudl not mess with (users have no business messing with their TOC server). > 5. Weeks or month later another translator finds the same problematic > string. > 6. He also tries to get an explanation in #gaim, Google or in this > list (may be he finds old mails in his archive about the > problematic word). > 7. Weeks later the next translator finds the problematic string. > 8. He lets the string untranslated because he has no time to talk in > #gaim etc. > 9. ... It would be interesting to know how often this actually happens. I suspect that for the *most* part it's another hypothetical problem -- the questions I see are often about different strings, and often stem =66rom a translator translating a portion of Gaim they do not themselves use. This is a problem, I think, in the ideal world ... it would be best if translators found the string in the program and translated it intelligently based on context. I realize that this is not always feasible, but lack of familiarity seems to lead to most of the problems I have seen. > For me it's the best solution to have an=20 > internationalization/localization manager in Gaim. His main tasks could b= e: >=20 > * Helping translators with problematic strings. > * Commenting problematic strings in the source. > * Changing "bad" strings in the source. He always should have user's > view, human interface guidelines etc. in mind. As well as the flavor of our culture, and a healty sense of "this is just whining". > * Dealing with other internationalization problems like date/time > formats, right-to-left languages, far-east language specials etc. > * Collecting translations from the translation tracker and commit them. >=20 > Of course this manager should have write access to the repository. But=20 > there should be a verbal agreement with the developers so that the=20 > internationalization/localization manager should only concentrate on=20 > internationalization/localization issues. >=20 > I suggested this several times more or less directly in discussions with= =20 > the developers. Developers always declined this. I have never heard this. The only objection I would have to pinning a particular person down to this is finding someone with the time to do it right. If someone has the time, more power to them. Right now, Luke handles a lot of this and seems (from my viewpoint) to handle it well. If there is something specific that he (or we) could be doing differently, please let us know. Frankly, I think you, specifically, have made a few suggestions which have not been accepted because community consensus (including that of other translators) has been that the changes are not always for the better; this experience may be coloring your opinion of the general state of affairs. (I remember at least one set of plurality changes which you wanted to make to make German easier, but which wouldn't fly because of, e.g., Slavic languages having three plural forms, for example.) In general, I feel that we are relatively responsive to *actual* problems in strings. "This string is offensive when I naively translate it to my native language without respect to the flavor of the original language's nuances" is not a string problem which we should be solving by changing code. When we find strings that are, say, not marked as requiring a plural form because English does not, but some other language does, the change is made immediately without resistance. If this is not the case, then I apologize. Ethan --=20 The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy for evils]. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764 |
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From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-25 20:54:39
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Ambrose LI wrote:
> Er, can you be more specific? I am not seeing many "false or improper
> answers" here.
> =20
May be we should still wait a bit with the master solution for the=20
survey questions. :-)
> In any case, these strings are not the most problematic I've seen in
> gaim. There are some strings that are much worse, ones that I do not
> understand after asking in #gaim, searching in Google, even reading
> the standards; in contrast, many of these strings in the survey are
> either obvious jokes or simple jargon.
> =20
Yes of course we have many such problematic strings in Gaim. My samples=20
only show some of them.
The point is that our information flow is not optimal in i18n issues:
1. A single translator finds a problematic string in his .po file.
2. He tries to get an explanation in #gaim, Google or in this list.
3. Someone gives him an explanation and he translates the string.
4. Nobody changes the source code (no string changes, no comments).
5. Weeks or month later another translator finds the same problematic
string.
6. He also tries to get an explanation in #gaim, Google or in this
list (may be he finds old mails in his archive about the
problematic word).
7. Weeks later the next translator finds the problematic string.
8. He lets the string untranslated because he has no time to talk in
#gaim etc.
9. ...
For me it's the best solution to have an=20
internationalization/localization manager in Gaim. His main tasks could b=
e:
* Helping translators with problematic strings.
* Commenting problematic strings in the source.
* Changing "bad" strings in the source. He always should have user's
view, human interface guidelines etc. in mind.
* Dealing with other internationalization problems like date/time
formats, right-to-left languages, far-east language specials etc.
* Collecting translations from the translation tracker and commit the=
m.
Of course this manager should have write access to the repository. But=20
there should be a verbal agreement with the developers so that the=20
internationalization/localization manager should only concentrate on=20
internationalization/localization issues.
I suggested this several times more or less directly in discussions with =
the developers. Developers always declined this.
But may be we find a good internationalization/localization expert which =
is accepted by the developers.
Greetings, Bj=F6rn
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From: Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...> - 2006-04-25 20:53:58
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Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom: > To make it clear: I don't think that only the translators have problems= =20 > with the discussed strings. Probably also many English users have=20 > problems with them. The survey results show this - many false or=20 > improper answers. Normally a translation can not be better than the=20 > original. Let's back up the horsie a bit ... where were the "many false or improper answers" ? I think you're making things up again, and quite frankly I'm getting tired of it. > By the way: The user who asked me some weeks ago what does "You feel a=20 > disturbance in the force..." in Gaim mean was someone with very good=20 > English knowledge and some computer and instant messaging experience.=20 > The user lived 10 years in Canada and learned English in a Canadian schoo= l. One data point does not make a trend. Ethan --=20 The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy for evils]. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764 |
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From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-04-25 20:40:56
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On 4/25/06, Ambrose LI <ac...@ad...> wrote: > In any case, these strings are not the most problematic I've seen in > gaim. There are some strings that are much worse, ones that I do not > understand after asking in #gaim, searching in Google, even reading > the standards; in contrast, many of these strings in the survey are > either obvious jokes or simple jargon. There seem to be three issues here: A particular string is offensive when translated literally - don't translate it literally. Clearly, the developer was being creative when he wrote the string; be creative when you translate it. A particular string is "unprofessional" - We wear our unprofessionalism as a badge. A particular string is unclear, ambiguous, poorly phrased, inaccruate, etc. - Real usability problems should be addressed, but I don't see any in this thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mozilla_Firefox#Delicious_delicacie= s -s. |
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From: Ambrose LI <ac...@ad...> - 2006-04-25 20:21:24
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On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:31:43PM +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: > > To make it clear: I don't think that only the translators have problems > with the discussed strings. Probably also many English users have > problems with them. The survey results show this - many false or > improper answers. Normally a translation can not be better than the > original. Er, can you be more specific? I am not seeing many "false or improper answers" here. In any case, these strings are not the most problematic I've seen in gaim. There are some strings that are much worse, ones that I do not understand after asking in #gaim, searching in Google, even reading the standards; in contrast, many of these strings in the survey are either obvious jokes or simple jargon. |
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From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-04-25 20:15:59
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Richard Laager wrote: > I haven't even seen Star Wars and it took me less than 10 seconds to > find the exact context of that quote using Google. > =20 This can be done easier. Look at my Star Wars patch... ;-) Greetings, Bj=F6rn |
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From: Richard L. <rl...@wi...> - 2006-04-25 19:43:18
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On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 21:31 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: > By the way: The user who asked me some weeks ago what does "You feel a > disturbance in the force..." in Gaim mean was someone with very good > English knowledge and some computer and instant messaging experience. > The user lived 10 years in Canada and learned English in a Canadian school. I would probably agree if understanding this string was necessary to use Gaim, but SERIOUSLY, it's a string in the psychic plugin... The plugin description makes it clear what that plugin does, so this "weird string" isn't even inhibiting use of the plugin itself. I haven't even seen Star Wars and it took me less than 10 seconds to find the exact context of that quote using Google. Richard |
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