pidgin-i18n — DO NOT USE. See https://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/translators

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Isriya P. <mar...@gm...>]

On 4/25/06, Richard Laager <rl...@wi...> wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 09:32 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote:
>
> I said I expect translators to fully understand what they're
> translating. If it's not obvious and there aren't comments (which, I
> agree, there could be more), then ask. I don't think that's unreasonable
> at all. Ask about the string here.
>
> You asked. That was exactly what I was suggesting.
>
> My other point was that we're not always going to change the English
> strings to make literal translations easy. If Gaim was written in German
> and you used German idioms, I wouldn't expect you to change it to make
> the English translation easier. I'd figure out what it meant and then
> translate it into something appropriate.

I think this is not only i18n/translation issue, it's about usability
issue. If developers and translators have to discuss so long as in
this thread, that means those strings should have some problems.

Since gaim becomes mainstream IM apps gradually, it's time to improve
usability of string, even for US users which don't need the
translation.

>
> > 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:=
1297?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> It's in a callback function that's registered as a pop-up handler for
> the port entry field in proxy options. Right-click on that field and
> you'll see the string. I'd assume easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen
> this code before I looked at it just now.)
>
> If I was a translator, I probably wouldn't bother with it. Or, I'd take
> the opportunity to translate it to a cutesy saying in my language and
> enjoy the fact that I know there's a "hidden" string which I created.
>
> > 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100=
?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> I've always assumed inside joke.
>
> > 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> Without looking, I'd assume a server for the TOC protocol.
>
> > 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and =
src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> The process of negotiating an SSL connection failed. This is standard
> technical jargon.
>
> > 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> Without looking, I'm not sure if channel means chat or a communications
> channel (the connection). But HMAC is a standard technical term.
>
> ... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear (given Channel Topic
> is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat".
>
> > 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psych=
ic.c means?
>
> Feels like a Star Wars quote to me and Google confirms that. (NOTE: I'm
> probably in the minority of Americans here, but I've never seen any of
> the Star Wars movies.)
>
> If you knew, or could find, the translation of that quote in Star Wars
> for your language, that might work. Otherwise, this type of cultural
> reference is hard to deal with. If you can't think of a fun cultural
> reference that users of your translation will understand, I'd suggest
> using a translated version of something boring like, "Your psychic
> powers say you are about to receive a message." or something.
>
> > 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin?
> >
> >    "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we sho=
uld at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99."
> >
> >    (from  svn log plugins/psychic.c)
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> Because it pops up a conversation window when someone starts typing to
> you have not previously had a conversation open. There's hardly a
> legitimate need for that -- you'll be getting the message in a few
> seconds when they send it.
>
>
> I can't find any good documentation on adding "translation comments" to
> gettext. I see them mentioned all over the place, especially in
> reference to .po files, but I don't know how to add them. Granted, I
> haven't looked that hard. If someone has a reference, we could add a
> translation comment to #6 and maybe #2.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job ea=
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=3D121642
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-i18n
>

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Richard Laager wrote:
> > 6) What does "You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psyc=
hic.c mean?
>
> Feels like a Star Wars quote to me and Google confirms that. (NOTE: I'm=

> probably in the minority of Americans here, but I've never seen any of
> the Star Wars movies.)
>
> If you knew, or could find, the translation of that quote in Star Wars
> for your language, that might work. Otherwise, this type of cultural
> reference is hard to deal with. If you can't think of a fun cultural
> reference that users of your translation will understand, I'd suggest
> using a translated version of something boring like, "Your psychic
> powers say you are about to receive a message." or something.
>  =20
I suggest creating a "en_NSW" (English for Non Star Wars users)=20
translation for Gaim. So English users without Star Wars knowledge can=20
understand the messages of Gaim's psychic plugin. ;-)

To make it clear: I don't think that only the translators have problems=20
with the discussed strings. Probably also many English users have=20
problems with them. The survey results show this - many false or=20
improper answers. Normally a translation can not be better than the=20
original.

By the way: The user who asked me some weeks ago what does "You feel a=20
disturbance in the force..." in Gaim mean was someone with very good=20
English knowledge and some computer and instant messaging experience.=20
The user lived 10 years in Canada and learned English in a Canadian schoo=
l.

Greetings, Bj=F6rn

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Sean E. <sea...@gm...>]

I'm reminded of http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/translation.html

By the way: Dy'er Mak'er is a song by Led Zeppelin.

-s.

On 4/25/06, Richard Laager <rl...@wi...> wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 09:32 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote:
>
> I said I expect translators to fully understand what they're
> translating. If it's not obvious and there aren't comments (which, I
> agree, there could be more), then ask. I don't think that's unreasonable
> at all. Ask about the string here.
>
> You asked. That was exactly what I was suggesting.
>
> My other point was that we're not always going to change the English
> strings to make literal translations easy. If Gaim was written in German
> and you used German idioms, I wouldn't expect you to change it to make
> the English translation easier. I'd figure out what it meant and then
> translate it into something appropriate.
>
> > 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:=
1297?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> It's in a callback function that's registered as a pop-up handler for
> the port entry field in proxy options. Right-click on that field and
> you'll see the string. I'd assume easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen
> this code before I looked at it just now.)
>
> If I was a translator, I probably wouldn't bother with it. Or, I'd take
> the opportunity to translate it to a cutesy saying in my language and
> enjoy the fact that I know there's a "hidden" string which I created.
>
> > 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100=
?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> I've always assumed inside joke.
>
> > 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> Without looking, I'd assume a server for the TOC protocol.
>
> > 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and =
src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> The process of negotiating an SSL connection failed. This is standard
> technical jargon.
>
> > 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> Without looking, I'm not sure if channel means chat or a communications
> channel (the connection). But HMAC is a standard technical term.
>
> ... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear (given Channel Topic
> is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat".
>
> > 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psych=
ic.c means?
>
> Feels like a Star Wars quote to me and Google confirms that. (NOTE: I'm
> probably in the minority of Americans here, but I've never seen any of
> the Star Wars movies.)
>
> If you knew, or could find, the translation of that quote in Star Wars
> for your language, that might work. Otherwise, this type of cultural
> reference is hard to deal with. If you can't think of a fun cultural
> reference that users of your translation will understand, I'd suggest
> using a translated version of something boring like, "Your psychic
> powers say you are about to receive a message." or something.
>
> > 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin?
> >
> >    "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we sho=
uld at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99."
> >
> >    (from  svn log plugins/psychic.c)
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> Because it pops up a conversation window when someone starts typing to
> you have not previously had a conversation open. There's hardly a
> legitimate need for that -- you'll be getting the message in a few
> seconds when they send it.
>
>
> I can't find any good documentation on adding "translation comments" to
> gettext. I see them mentioned all over the place, especially in
> reference to .po files, but I don't know how to add them. Granted, I
> haven't looked that hard. If someone has a reference, we could add a
> translation comment to #6 and maybe #2.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job ea=
sier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronim=
o
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D120709&bid=3D263057&dat=
=3D121642
> _______________________________________________
> Gaim-i18n mailing list
> Gai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-i18n
>

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Richard L. <rl...@wi...>]

On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 09:32 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote:

I said I expect translators to fully understand what they're
translating. If it's not obvious and there aren't comments (which, I
agree, there could be more), then ask. I don't think that's unreasonable
at all. Ask about the string here.

You asked. That was exactly what I was suggesting.

My other point was that we're not always going to change the English
strings to make literal translations easy. If Gaim was written in German
and you used German idioms, I wouldn't expect you to change it to make
the English translation easier. I'd figure out what it meant and then
translate it into something appropriate.

> 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:1297?
> 
>    Answer: 

It's in a callback function that's registered as a pop-up handler for
the port entry field in proxy options. Right-click on that field and
you'll see the string. I'd assume easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen
this code before I looked at it just now.)

If I was a translator, I probably wouldn't bother with it. Or, I'd take
the opportunity to translate it to a cutesy saying in my language and
enjoy the fact that I know there's a "hidden" string which I created.

> 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100?
>  
>    Answer: 

I've always assumed inside joke.

> 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?
> 
>    Answer: 

Without looking, I'd assume a server for the TOC protocol.

> 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?
> 
>    Answer: 

The process of negotiating an SSL connection failed. This is standard
technical jargon.

> 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?
> 
>    Answer: 

Without looking, I'm not sure if channel means chat or a communications
channel (the connection). But HMAC is a standard technical term.

... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear (given Channel Topic
is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat".

> 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psychic.c means?

Feels like a Star Wars quote to me and Google confirms that. (NOTE: I'm
probably in the minority of Americans here, but I've never seen any of
the Star Wars movies.)

If you knew, or could find, the translation of that quote in Star Wars
for your language, that might work. Otherwise, this type of cultural
reference is hard to deal with. If you can't think of a fun cultural
reference that users of your translation will understand, I'd suggest
using a translated version of something boring like, "Your psychic
powers say you are about to receive a message." or something.

> 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin?
> 
>    "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we should at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99."
> 
>    (from  svn log plugins/psychic.c)
> 
>    Answer: 

Because it pops up a conversation window when someone starts typing to
you have not previously had a conversation open. There's hardly a
legitimate need for that -- you'll be getting the message in a few
seconds when they send it.


I can't find any good documentation on adding "translation comments" to
gettext. I see them mentioned all over the place, especially in
reference to .po files, but I don't know how to add them. Granted, I
haven't looked that hard. If someone has a reference, we could add a
translation comment to #6 and maybe #2.

Richard

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Luke S. <lsc...@us...>]

>=20
> 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:12=
97?
>=20
>   Answer:=20

One of two things, both intended as humourus:
A)your network is really slow and you have nothing better to do than
look at butterflies.
B)You are looking really closely at something that shouldn't matter
:-)

>=20
> 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100?
>=20
>   Answer:=20

Pointing out what Syd did and why he's there isn't easy.  But not for
the same reason that pointing out what Eric did isn't easy. Eric is
hard because he did almost litterally everythign.  Syd I'm pretty
sure did the prefs dialog, but beyond that...  Oh, and then he went
to AOL to work on winaim.  He deserves some grief for that :-P

>=20
> 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?
>=20
>   Answer:=20

TOC is an acronym.  I don't know what it means, it doesn't much
matter.  A user needs to see "TOC" so that they know what I'm talking
about if I ask them if they are using TOC.  It is in that sense a
proper name.  a "host" in computing software is going to be a server.

>=20
> 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and=20
> src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?
>=20
>   Answer:=20

SSL is arcane, or at least, I know next to nothing about it.  (note,
I'm not reading the source as I do this but then I'm not a normal
test taker here either).  But a handshake is part of a greeting, part
of two people meeting.  And it failed.  And its an error message.  So
the ssl setup failed, didn't work.

>=20
> 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?
>=20
>   Answer:=20

Good question.  HMAC is a silc intneral.  I wonder why it needs to be
translated at all.

>=20
> 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psychic=
=2Ec=20
> means?

I could go to litterally any child above, say, 10, here in the US and
they would recognize it as Star Wars.  They probly wouldn't recall
its exact context though, as it is from the original Star Wars,
episode 4.  Either way, the idea here is that something has happened
that you can't see, but it happening lets you know that someone is
around.  I'm not opposed to putting notes in the source about this,
but it does seem really silly to do so.  Seriously, Granted we have
en_GB and so on, the en_US users who will find themselves seeing the
untranslated version will understand and be amused at this one. =20

>=20
> 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin?
>=20
>   "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we should=
=20
>   at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99."
>=20
>   (from  svn log plugins/psychic.c)
>=20
>   Answer:=20

A number of our users are quite upset over the loss of the
"conversation closed" messages from MSN.  Such users have been
obsessing over what it means when the other person closed that
conversation.  Does the person hate them?  are they being ignored?

Even more users obsess over the privacy stuff.  Otherwise sane people
worry that someone will think you hate them if you take them off your
buddy list (you can tell on msn and jabber), or if they find out you
blocked them (aim).  I've even seen people change screennames because
its somehow better to have forgotten to tell someone the new SN than
to block them.  Its crazy.  It is senseless.  It is very juvenile
high school behavior.  And its something Ethan has been summerizing
as "stalker" behavior for a while now.

The psychic mode plugin detects that someone is _about_ to send you a
message.  more technically, it catches the typing notification being
sent as they type the first message, before you have (short of the
plugin) seen anything to indicate their attention.  It isn't quite
the same as the stalker behaviors above.  it doesn't give you quite
the same information as (for example) the msn "conversation closed"
messages did.  But I can see where he'd lump it in.

>=20

luke

>=20
> Greetings, Bj=F6rn
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job=20
> easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=120709&bid&3057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Gaim-i18n mailing list
> Gai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-i18n
>=20

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Ambrose LI <ac...@ad...>]

On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:32:01AM +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote:
> 
> 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:1297?
> 
Answer: "You are looking too closely"

The context is "If you look closely enough" and the obviousness that this is a
joke.

I suppose some users could find this somewhat insulting, though. scim users
getting stuck with no input and having to switch IME's by pulling down the
context menu may be a possibility...

> 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100?
> 
Answer: Don't know, but would doubt it as an insult because no one puts real
insults into a list of credits

> 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?
> 
Answer: A TOC server. TOC is an AIM protocol. A host is a computer. Literally
a computer talking the TOC protocol, but the context requires it to be a
server, and in the DOS/Windows world (since this is AIM) the word "host"
traditionally only refers to servers.

> 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and 
> src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?
> 
Answer: 
Without looking at anything, "Gaim was trying to start talking to a server
through SSL, but it failed"

> 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?
> 
Answer: 
Short answer (looking at my po file): Some kind of user authentication token
for the channel

I consider myself to fail this question in any case, because I expected to
find some notes in the po file, but I did not write down any.

> 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psychic.c 
> means?

Answer: disregarding anything said earlier here, I would have said,
"something is happening"

The context here is the file name ("psychic")

I'm not a Star Wars fan myself, so I wouldn't know the Star Wars connotations
myself

> 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin?
> 
>   "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we should 
>   at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99."
> 
>   (from  svn log plugins/psychic.c)

Answer: Probably because it's supposed to make you "psychic", which would
"enable" you to be a stalker

(Note: He doesn't refer to it as a "stalker plugin", but a "stalker-ENABLEMENT"
plugin)

> 
> Greetings, Bj?rn

Best regards,
Ambrose

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Bad language in Gaim

[Clytie S. <cl...@ri...>]

On 25/04/2006, at 9:20 PM, Vincas =C4=8Ci=C5=BEi=C5=ABnas wrote:

> On Apr 25, 2006, at 5:37 AM, Clytie Siddall wrote:
>> I think there is a sensible compromise. If a string is normal =20
>> language, which you would expect the average user to understand, =20
>> then you can also expect us to understand it. If it is not normal =20
>> language, if it's more technical, more idiomatic or more obtuse, =20
>> then you need to supply context.
>
> (Most) Developers are not linguists.  To many of them, idioms do =20
> constitute 'normal language'.

Yes, of course. I meant _more idiomatic_ than usual, like the jargon =20
of one particular sub-culture. "Sensing a disturbance in the force" =20
is an example of this. While Star Wars fans (of whom I am one ;) ) =20
probably don't think of Star Wars as a sub-anything, it's not general =20=

language (yet ;) ).

from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3m =
=20
Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Bad language in Gaim

[<vi...@ci...>]

On Apr 25, 2006, at 5:37 AM, Clytie Siddall wrote:
> I think there is a sensible compromise. If a string is normal  
> language, which you would expect the average user to understand,  
> then you can also expect us to understand it. If it is not normal  
> language, if it's more technical, more idiomatic or more obtuse,  
> then you need to supply context.
>

(Most) Developers are not linguists.  To many of them, idioms do  
constitute 'normal language'.


> If there is an issue with a string and a particular language, then  
> certainly that translator will try to deal with it. If there are  
> cultural difficulties, we will advise you of them. That is part of  
> our job. However, that part of our job is not actually useful  
> unless you pay attention to our advice. ;)

I agree with you here.  If an expression seems overly colorful  
(idiomatic) to you, or insulting, bring it up, which is what Bjoern  
did.  That is the purpose for which this mailing list exists.



>>
>> Getting back to this case... If "lazy bum" is a strong insult in your
>> language, then don't translate it literally. If there's no  
>> appropriate
>> translation, you could translate that portion of the string to the  
>> empty
>> string.
>
> Again, you're expecting us to know what you mean. How do we know  
> that you're not insulting this person seriously? The fact that  
> you're insulting him at all is confusing to us.

Nobody is expecting to know what it means, but I think we are  
expecting people to not assume the worst about an expression.   
Attacking someone's strings because, if translated, it would be  
terribly insulting in your language means you should discuss (not  
attack) what it means in a suitable forum, such as this mailing list,  
and then it should either be left blank in your language or a  
suitable replacement be found.


>>
>> If you take the approach of "I'll translate everything (often  
>> literally)
>> without understanding it", you're going to end up with a bad  
>> translation
>> that results in user complaints. It's entirely reasonable for us (and
>> users) to expect that translators fully understand what they're
>> translating.
>
> Yes indeed. That's why you supply context with obtuse strings, so  
> we have enough information to understand fully what we're translating.


After this line of discussion on these particular strings, I'm sure  
some comments as to their meanings might be added.  I'd even supply  
them.



--V

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Clytie Siddall wrote:
> I think there is a sensible compromise. If a string is normal=20
> language, which you would expect the average user to understand, then=20
> you can also expect us to understand it. If it is not normal language, =

> if it's more technical, more idiomatic or more obtuse, then you need=20
> to supply context.
>
> If there is an issue with a string and a particular language, then=20
> certainly that translator will try to deal with it. If there are=20
> cultural difficulties, we will advise you of them. That is part of our =

> job. However, that part of our job is not actually useful unless you=20
> pay attention to our advice. ;)
[...]
> Again, you're expecting us to know what you mean. How do we know that=20
> you're not insulting this person seriously? The fact that you're=20
> insulting him at all is confusing to us.
[...]
> Yes indeed. That's why you supply context with obtuse strings, so we=20
> have enough information to understand fully what we're translating.
>
> We all want to produce high-quality translations. However, our=20
> translations can only reflect the quality of the original text.
>
> from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3=
m=20
> Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do)
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN

Yes, thank you very much. I fully support Clytie's suggestions.

Greetings, Bj=C3=B6rn

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Bad language in Gaim

[Clytie S. <cl...@ri...>]

On 25/04/2006, at 1:14 PM, Richard Laager wrote:

> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 12:58 +0930, Clytie Siddall wrote:
>> You can't expect translators to know what you mean, especially if the
>> string is unusual in some way.
>
> If you encounter a string you don't understand, you should ask =20
> about it.
> In this particular case, I can see why people would argue we should
> change the string. But, what about the case of "Handshaking" not
> translating cleanly into PT_pt? Surely we shouldn't change our =20
> string to
> work around that. If we had to change strings to make them unambiguous
> for every language, we'd have a mess.

I think there is a sensible compromise. If a string is normal =20
language, which you would expect the average user to understand, then =20=

you can also expect us to understand it. If it is not normal =20
language, if it's more technical, more idiomatic or more obtuse, then =20=

you need to supply context.

If there is an issue with a string and a particular language, then =20
certainly that translator will try to deal with it. If there are =20
cultural difficulties, we will advise you of them. That is part of =20
our job. However, that part of our job is not actually useful unless =20
you pay attention to our advice. ;)
>
>> You also can't expect them to
>> understand social nuances of your culture. All you will get is
>> ignored strings and/or a lower quality of translation.
>
> Getting back to this case... If "lazy bum" is a strong insult in your
> language, then don't translate it literally. If there's no appropriate
> translation, you could translate that portion of the string to the =20
> empty
> string.

Again, you're expecting us to know what you mean. How do we know that =20=

you're not insulting this person seriously? The fact that you're =20
insulting him at all is confusing to us.
>
> If you take the approach of "I'll translate everything (often =20
> literally)
> without understanding it", you're going to end up with a bad =20
> translation
> that results in user complaints. It's entirely reasonable for us (and
> users) to expect that translators fully understand what they're
> translating.

Yes indeed. That's why you supply context with obtuse strings, so we =20
have enough information to understand fully what we're translating.

We all want to produce high-quality translations. However, our =20
translations can only reflect the quality of the original text.

from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3m =
=20
Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Richard Laager wrote:
> If you take the approach of "I'll translate everything (often literally=
)
> without understanding it", you're going to end up with a bad translatio=
n
> that results in user complaints. It's entirely reasonable for us (and
> users) to expect that translators fully understand what they're
> translating.
>  =20
Richard, you say that translators should fully understand what they're=20
translating. What do you expect from us?

Let's take a test. Translators and developers can answer. I'm especially =

interested if developers understand all of their messages. My personal=20
experience (I'm a software developer too - but not in instance messaging =

area) is that most developers in large software projects don't perfectly =

understand all parts of the software. Normally comments should help to=20
understand difficult parts of code. I personally often miss comments for =

difficult to understand comments. Gettext is able to display translation =

comments in the .po files.

This is now a long discussion. We talked about the meaning of some=20
difficult strings. Why doesn't someone with write access save this=20
explanations in form of code-comments?

The survey:
Hint: It's allowed to look into the code. But none of the strings has=20
comments in code! This makes the survery interesting! Please answer in=20
English so that others in the list can verify the answers.

1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:12=
97?

   Answer:=20

2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100?

   Answer:=20

3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?

   Answer:=20

4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and sr=
c/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?

   Answer:=20

5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?

   Answer:=20

6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psychic=
=2Ec means?

7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin?

   "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we shoul=
d at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99."

   (from  svn log plugins/psychic.c)

   Answer:=20


Greetings, Bj=F6rn

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Bad language in Gaim

[Richard L. <rl...@wi...>]

On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 12:58 +0930, Clytie Siddall wrote:
> You can't expect translators to know what you mean, especially if the  
> string is unusual in some way.

If you encounter a string you don't understand, you should ask about it.
In this particular case, I can see why people would argue we should
change the string. But, what about the case of "Handshaking" not
translating cleanly into PT_pt? Surely we shouldn't change our string to
work around that. If we had to change strings to make them unambiguous
for every language, we'd have a mess.

> You also can't expect them to  
> understand social nuances of your culture. All you will get is  
> ignored strings and/or a lower quality of translation.

Getting back to this case... If "lazy bum" is a strong insult in your
language, then don't translate it literally. If there's no appropriate
translation, you could translate that portion of the string to the empty
string.

If you take the approach of "I'll translate everything (often literally)
without understanding it", you're going to end up with a bad translation
that results in user complaints. It's entirely reasonable for us (and
users) to expect that translators fully understand what they're
translating.

Richard

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Bad language in Gaim

[Clytie S. <cl...@ri...>]

On 24/04/2006, at 8:13 PM, Bjoern Voigt wrote:

> I found some i18n strings in Gaim which I don't like for different =20
> reasons. Of course I can write a patch which changes these strings. =20=

> But I think it's better to change the strings after a voting from =20
> other translators.

I have carefully read all of this thread, so far, and although I =20
agree that developers may perhaps have their reasons for including =20
these types of strings (although in all the projects where I =20
translate, I have never encountered strings of this type), but I also =20=

agree strongly with Bjoern that these strings are inappropriate in =20
some languages.

Disregarding poor Syd's actual nature at this moment, how are we =20
translators to know that "lazy bum" is a mild joke? It's a very =20
serious insult in my language.

You can't expect translators to know what you mean, especially if the =20=

string is unusual in some way. You also can't expect them to =20
understand social nuances of your culture. All you will get is =20
ignored strings and/or a lower quality of translation.

Best practice in the case of unusual strings is to supply contextual =20
information. Please do so.

I have not been able to get any answer from Quy about the status of =20
the Vietnamese translation, so it remains in limbo, but if I do have =20
to take it over, I don't want to be guessing my way through the file. =20=

I want to be able to create a high-quality translation.

I think we all do, and that makes Bjoern's concerns about translating =20=

these strings perfectly valid.

from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3m =
=20
Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Luke S. <lsc...@us...>]

On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 09:49:03PM +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote:
> Hello all!
> 
> I contacted Syd Logan. He wants that we change his credit's entry. So 
> please respect him and change his credit entries (in AUTHORS, 
> doc/gaim.1.in, src/gtkdialogs.c)
> 
> Greetings, Björn

I doubt he was consulted when Eric wrote it.  I don't doubt that he
would have requested it be changed if he had been consulted.  Even if
neither of the above is true (which you'd have a hard time convincing
me of), I doubt Syd, or Eric, expected gaim to grow as it has.  I
doubt any of us did.

I really don't buy that request as a reason to change something that
has been there for longer than I have been a developer, though not
longer than I have been a user.  I am ALWAYS hesitant to change
non-functional parts of Gaim that have bearing on us as a group, that
are our history.   With software, to change it is to lose part of
what makes us come to gaim: that element of fun, that element of it
NOT being a corporate project.  That element that lets us say things
as we see them, do what we want, when we want.

Be it a little line in the about box, some randomness in our comments
(including a dragon, some humor, and even a little bit of text that
is rather more offensive than that about box line), or the odd easter
egg, we need these things to remind us that this is supposed to be
FUN, and that we are not out to conquer the business market.  If we
had been, then we wouldn't now be in a position to get confused about
it.

luke

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Hello all!

I contacted Syd Logan. He wants that we change his credit's entry. So=20
please respect him and change his credit entries (in AUTHORS,=20
doc/gaim.1.in, src/gtkdialogs.c)

Greetings, Bj=F6rn

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Re: About your credits in Gaim
Date: 	Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:28:08 -0700
From: 	Syd Logan
To: 	Bjoern Voigt <bj...@cs...>


Bjoern

If you could change it to "user interface", that would be fine.

I'm not really lazy :-)

Thanks,

syd

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Duarte H. <dua...@gm...>]
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Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Sean E. <sea...@gm...>]

None of these strings are changing.

Novell's interest in Gaim is monetary. They make money from Gaim, so
money is their incentive to make Gaim do what their customers want
(although I think your premise... that "serious business users"
require Gaim to be boring).

Our interest in Gaim is solely fun. Therefore, we will continue to
maintain, add, and mark for translation, strings that serve no purpose
but amusement.

In the meantime, pop in a German Star Wars DVD and quit taking things
so seriously ;)

-s.

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Luke Schierer wrote:
> More to the point, Novell's supported version of gaim has a patch
> already in existance as Novell wants not only to change some user
> visible strings, but to force some preferences to be set, to remove
> some comments from the code itself, and a few other things.
>  =20
Yes, I took a look at latest Gaim 1.5.0 package from=20
http://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-sou=
rce/suse/src/

Novell has no "mating butterflies" because they changed the proxy code.=20
Novell's Gaim package can use GConf's proxy settings.=20

Novell didn't changed "lazy bum". The "feeling a disturbance in the=20
force" isn't in Gaim 1.5.0 because the "psychic" plugin is new in 2.0.

> And calling someone a "lazy bum," is, in American English anyway, of
> so little significance that it quite possibly even got past Novell's
> filter, though I have not specifically checked.
>  =20
Why do you call Syd Logan a "lazy bum"?

I don't know him personally. But if I look at his homepage I don't think =

he's lazy: http://www.sydlogan.com/index2.html
(Ok, he is a bit lazy with updating his homepage. His email addresses=20
are not valid. :-) )

I attached a list of "lazy bum" translations (current Gaim SVN=20
translations). As you can see the majority of translators skipped "[lazy =

bum]" or leaved it in English. Thanks to the translators which=20
translated "lazy bum". Now we can learn what "lazy bum" means in some=20
non-English languages. :-)

Greetings, Bj=C3=B6rn

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Luke S. <lsc...@us...>]

On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 09:33:59AM -0400, Ethan Blanton wrote:
> Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom:
> > Ethan Blanton wrote:
> > >Fortunately, "I don't like this string" is not sufficient reason to
> > >change it, regardless of who 'votes' on it.
> >
> > Of course, an opinion of a single translator is not so important. But 
> > the needs of Gaim's users should be important for us.
> > 
> > What about serious business users? I mean Novell for instance supports 
> > Gaim as their instant messaging solution. Gaim is included in Novell 
> > Linux business products:
> 
> What about them?  If they want custom strings, they can take out a
> support contract and have strings customized.  :-P

More to the point, Novell's supported version of gaim has a patch
already in existance as Novell wants not only to change some user
visible strings, but to force some preferences to be set, to remove
some comments from the code itself, and a few other things.

> 
> > http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/features/im.html
> > 
> > I don't think that a typical business user is amused about "lazy bums", 
> > "mating butterflies" and about "feeling a disturbance in the force" in 
> > the user interface of a serious program. Of course distributors like 
> > Novell can change these strings. But it's much work to do this for all 
> > translated languages and for English. And I don't think that we Gaim 
> > translators want to support two versions of our translations: one for 
> > normal users and business users and one for playing kids. So I still 
> > think, it's best to improve the English original strings.
> 
> No, you shouldn't support two translations.  You should translate the
> strings as they are, and leave *hypothetical* business users who don't
> like these strings to fend for themselves -- notice that they don't
> exist, you made them up.

Really, of the 3 strings, only the butterflies one is of any
significance.

Looking at "business users," I know that more than a few tech
companies sponcered trips to movies like the Matrix lately.  Perhaps
they would not pick a string like "Feeling a disturbance in the
force" but they really aren't going to object to it either.  They
simply don't care either way.

And calling someone a "lazy bum," is, in American English anyway, of
so little significance that it quite possibly even got past Novell's
filter, though I have not specifically checked.

You realize of course, that if a "literal" translation of these
strings is going to cause problems in any given language, you can of
course translate them to something that conveys the meaning better.
For example, I've been told by a number of translators that the
American word "Buddies" does not translate well, not even into
British English.  Many of you have come up with some other string to
do the job.  The same should hold true here.

luke

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Who do I need to talk to about credit?

[Ambrose LI <ac...@ad...>]

On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 07:23:22AM -0400, Ethan Blanton wrote:
> Shalom Craimer spake unto us the following wisdom:
> > This is purely a point of pride, but I wanted to know - who do I talk to
> > about getting credit for the translation? It's still being credited to
> > Pavel... </hurt ego>
> 
> This list is appropriate.  Luke is probably the best one to take care
> of this.  About which translation are we speaking?

That would be Hebrew.

> Ethan

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom:
> Ethan Blanton wrote:
> >Fortunately, "I don't like this string" is not sufficient reason to
> >change it, regardless of who 'votes' on it.
>
> Of course, an opinion of a single translator is not so important. But=20
> the needs of Gaim's users should be important for us.
>=20
> What about serious business users? I mean Novell for instance supports=20
> Gaim as their instant messaging solution. Gaim is included in Novell=20
> Linux business products:

What about them?  If they want custom strings, they can take out a
support contract and have strings customized.  :-P

> http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/features/im.html
>=20
> I don't think that a typical business user is amused about "lazy bums",=
=20
> "mating butterflies" and about "feeling a disturbance in the force" in=20
> the user interface of a serious program. Of course distributors like=20
> Novell can change these strings. But it's much work to do this for all=20
> translated languages and for English. And I don't think that we Gaim=20
> translators want to support two versions of our translations: one for=20
> normal users and business users and one for playing kids. So I still=20
> think, it's best to improve the English original strings.

No, you shouldn't support two translations.  You should translate the
strings as they are, and leave *hypothetical* business users who don't
like these strings to fend for themselves -- notice that they don't
exist, you made them up.

I understand that you don't like these strings, but that does not
invalidate their legitimacy.  That particular 'disturbance in the
force' phrase, for example, is perhaps the *only* thing I like about
the psychic plugin.

If your complaint is that these phrases are difficult to translate,
then I am sorry to hear that ... pick something less idiomatic, I
guess.  Perhaps we could put in a note to translators in the comments
to help them with this task.

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Ethan Blanton wrote:
> Fortunately, "I don't like this string" is not sufficient reason to
> change it, regardless of who 'votes' on it.
>  =20
Of course, an opinion of a single translator is not so important. But=20
the needs of Gaim's users should be important for us.

What about serious business users? I mean Novell for instance supports=20
Gaim as their instant messaging solution. Gaim is included in Novell=20
Linux business products:

http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/features/im.html

I don't think that a typical business user is amused about "lazy bums",=20
"mating butterflies" and about "feeling a disturbance in the force" in=20
the user interface of a serious program. Of course distributors like=20
Novell can change these strings. But it's much work to do this for all=20
translated languages and for English. And I don't think that we Gaim=20
translators want to support two versions of our translations: one for=20
normal users and business users and one for playing kids. So I still=20
think, it's best to improve the English original strings.

Greetings, Bj=F6rn

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Vincas =C4=8Ci=C5=BEi=C5=ABnas wrote:
> The other thing is, I do believe that Bjoern is using the wrong=20
> translation of the word 'bum'.  Unless I'm mistaken, you're using the=20
> word "Arsch" translating "bum" in the british sense, "an arse, a butt, =

> a rear end".  This is not the American sense of the word which is=20
> meant,  "a homeless tramp"  or, more fittingly, "a person who does no=20
> work", thus, a "lazy bum" is a person who does no work because they=20
> are lazy.  This is why it's a lesser insult in American english. =20
> Those who speak british english would recognize the phrase "lazy bum"=20
> as a mild american english expression.  Thought I might clarify.  =20
Thanks. But "Fauler Arsch" or even better translated "Fauler Sack" has=20
the same meaning in German as you describe. "Fauler Arsch" or "Fauler=20
Sack" describes a person who does not work because he is too lazy to=20
work. They are both swearwords in German. I don't know a mild word for=20
lazy persons in German.

Does anyone has Syd Logan's e-mail address? So we can ask himself. I=20
found this information about him (from:=20
http://gaim.sourceforge.net/contactinfo.php):

    Syd Logan
    /Gtk+ God, Pilot, and Designated Driver/

Greetings, Bj=C3=B6rn/
/

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Who do I need to talk to about credit?

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Shalom Craimer spake unto us the following wisdom:
> This is purely a point of pride, but I wanted to know - who do I talk to
> about getting credit for the translation? It's still being credited to
> Pavel... </hurt ego>

This list is appropriate.  Luke is probably the best one to take care
of this.  About which translation are we speaking?

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Bad language in Gaim

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom:
> I found some i18n strings in Gaim which I don't like for different=20
> reasons. Of course I can write a patch which changes these strings. But=
=20
> I think it's better to change the strings after a voting from other=20
> translators.

Fortunately, "I don't like this string" is not sufficient reason to
change it, regardless of who 'votes' on it.

> Here are the strings which I don't like:
>=20
>=20
> #: ../src/gtkdialogs.c:100
> msgid "hacker and designated driver [lazy bum]"
> msgstr ""
>=20
> I think it's abusive to call the retired developer Syd Logan a "lazy=20
> bum". I think this not a humorous designation. The direct German=20
> translation "Hacker und selbsternannter F=FChrer [fauler Arsch]" sounds=
=20
> very bad. So I refuse to translate it directly anyway.
>=20
> Does anyone know, what Syd Logan did for the Gaim project?

This *is* humorous in English, and it is not particularly abusive.  If
your German translation sounds very bad, it is not a good translation.
"Lazy bum" is a rather mild insult in English, and the corresponding
translation should likewise be mild.

>=20
> #: ../plugins/psychic.c:60
> msgid "You feel a disturbance in the force..."
> msgstr ""
>=20
> This message is not bad language but it does not describe what's going=20
> on. I asked the developer (Christopher O'Brien) about what his string=20
> mean. He told me, that it means: "If a buddy begins to type a message to=
=20
> you a conversation window appears (with this message)". Unfortunately he=
=20
> does not want to change his string. So I need your votes.

This is a cultural reference which most people should get.  In
context, it *does* describe what is going on with sufficient detail.
This is also not critical functionality for Gaim (in fact, I would not
include this plugin at all).  Therefore, if Christopher likes this
string, it should stay -- regardless of "votes".  You should choose an
appropriate translation for it, and that's the end of that.

> #: ../src/gtkaccount.c:1297
> msgid "you can see the butterflies mating"
> msgstr ""
>=20
> This may be a funny message. But also it does say nothing. It has=20
> something to do with the proxy port option in the account dialogs. But I=
=20
> don't know the exact meaning.

Of your three points, this is the only one I can agree with.  This
message is mildly (if even) humorous, but not that great.  It also
will most likely *never* be seen by anyone (except translators), so
it's not really hurting anything ... but there's no need for it.
These actions don't do anything, so the precise meaning is not that
important for translation.  These strings should probably either be
removed or the translation markers removed (if we wish for them to
stay in an easter-eggish fashion).

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764