tuxpaint-devel — General discussion list for Tux Paint developers

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Tux Paint 0.9.18 status

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 06:26:42AM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:
> > * I'm hoping a friend came make a few sfx for some of the new Magic Tools
> >   that lack any sounds
> 
> If you are stuck let me know what needs doing and I'll have a go.

Thanks Caroline!

For the new "Shift" tool (it slides the entire image around the canvas),
I was thinking some heavy machinery / chain sounds would be good.
(Cah-chunk, cah-chunk, cah-chunk...)

Calligraphy could probably just be a nice soft brush-on-paper sound
(or perhaps a few different sounds, to respond to the varying thicknesses
the tool paints with, depending on the speed of the stroke).

And finally, Kaliedoscope needs a sound.  Nothing comes to mind, though. :^/

-bill!

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Tux Paint 0.9.18 status

[Caroline F. <car...@go...>]

> * I'm hoping a friend came make a few sfx for some of the new Magic Tools
>   that lack any sounds

If you are stuck let me know what needs doing and I'll have a go.

Caroline

[Tuxpaint-devel] Tux Paint 0.9.18 status

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

For those curious, here's the current status of Tux Paint 0.9.18...

* I'm hoping a friend came make a few sfx for some of the new Magic Tools
  that lack any sounds

* Win32 status, per John Popplewell:
  + Magic Tool plugins/DLLs working.
  + It's likely that Win2K/XP/Vista will be full-featured, but
    Win95/98/ME will have older SVG libs and no Pango support
    (he's had issues with GLib and friends on those older platforms).
    I'm fine with that...
  + Hoping to use SDL 1.2.12 and friends, but he's only got SDL going so far,
    not support libs (SDL_image, SDL_mixer, etc.)
  + Likely to be looking at Tux Paint on Win32 again this weekend!

* Mac OS X status, per Martin Fuhrer:
  + Magic Tool plugins working on PPC, but not yet on Intel
    (due to issues with x86 gettext); asked an Intel-Mac-owning friend for
    assistance
  + Will be looking into SDL_Pango soon
  + Started looking at Tux Paint again a few days ago; will continue this week


I'm not 100% sure what, if anything, will need to change in Tux Paint source
and/or any of the platform-specific build files (Makefile, XCode stuff, etc.),
so I'm holding off on doing an official source release until John and Martin
get back to me on that...

In the meantime, I'll probably roll an rc1 (release candidate 1) some time
today.

-- 
-bill!
bi...@ne...
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Use cases: send a picture to Grandma; use as desktop background

[Ben A. <sy...@sa...>]

Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:
> Doesn't most applications that support PNG handle metadata correctly 
> (i.e., not remove it when opening and saving)

Well, the Gimp, for one, does not.  It all gets stripped.

Ben

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Use cases: send a picture to Grandma; use as desktop background

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 06:19:53PM +0200, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:
> 
> Doesn't most applications that support PNG handle metadata correctly 
> (i.e., not remove it when opening and saving)?

After what I've seen Photoshop do to PLTE chunk, I seriously doubt it. :(

-- 
-bill!
bi...@ne...
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Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Use cases: send a picture to Grandma; use as desktop background

[Karl O. H. <ka...@hu...>]

Tysdag 18. september 2007 skreiv Ben Armstrong:
>and the text
>info would be rewritten by any other app that rewrites the file (same
>issue as with steganography, and same reply: who cares? we don't have
>to support preserving this info if some other app edits the image).

Doesn't most applications that support PNG handle metadata correctly 
(i.e., not remove it when opening and saving)?

-- 
Karl Ove Hufthammer

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] SDL_Pango header problem

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2007 at 06:23:37PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have fixed this in sdlpango 0.1.2-2 which was just uploaded to
> unstable.

Excellent, thanks so much!

-bill!

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] SDL_Pango header problem

[Josselin M. <jo...@de...>]

Le jeudi 12 juillet 2007 =E0 12:29 -0700, Bill Kendrick a =E9crit :
> Hi there!  Thanks for SDL_Pango.  I'm beginning to update my project
> "Tux Paint" to use it in favor of SDL_ttf.
>=20
> Unfortunately, I get linking errors when I #include "SDL_Pango.h"
> in multiple files.  (I do so in both 'tuxpaint.c' and 'fonts.c', a C file
> full of helper routines.)
>=20
>   obj/fonts.o:(.rodata+0x0): multiple definition of `_MATRIX_WHITE_BACK'
>   obj/tuxpaint.o:(.rodata+0x0): first defined here
>   obj/fonts.o:(.data+0x0): multiple definition of `MATRIX_WHITE_BACK'
>   obj/tuxpaint.o:(.data+0x0): first defined here
>   obj/fonts.o:(.rodata+0x10): multiple definition of `_MATRIX_BLACK_BACK'
>   obj/tuxpaint.o:(.rodata+0x10): first defined here
>   obj/fonts.o:(.data+0x4): multiple definition of `MATRIX_BLACK_BACK'
>   obj/tuxpaint.o:(.data+0x4): first defined here
> ...etc.
>=20
> By simply removing the various color matrices in the header, I was able
> to get things to link.  I think you could do either this, or declare them
> all as 'static'.

Hi,

I have fixed this in sdlpango 0.1.2-2 which was just uploaded to
unstable.

Cheers,
--=20
 .''`.
: :' :      We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'       We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-        our own. Resistance is futile.

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Use cases: send a picture to Grandma; use as desktop background

[Ben A. <sy...@sa...>]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:58:00 +0200
"Tore B. J=C3=B8rgensen" <tor...@at...> wrote:
> How about storing the metadata as textual data in the png-file?
> http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/spec/iso/index-object.html#table41
> Is the Textual data used for anything else?

Certainly more elegant than steganography, and I think we discussed this
earlier on irc, but I think the objections raised at that time were
twofold: lack of support for it in SDL (not a showstopper, because it
can be managed by direct calls through the libpng api?) and the text
info would be rewritten by any other app that rewrites the file (same
issue as with steganography, and same reply: who cares? we don't have
to support preserving this info if some other app edits the image).

Ben
--
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Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Use cases: send a picture to Grandma; use as desktop background

[<tor...@at...>]

Ben Armstrong wrote:
>> I don't know if there is a way round this, I'm struggling to think of a
>> way in which this behaviour is useful :-)
>>     
>
> Me too.  Does Vista have the same mis-feature, I wonder?
>
> We've been talking about metadata without mentioning specifics.  All we
> really mean is the association between a picture and the starter that
> was used to create it, so that when the picture is edited again, the
> code that handles the starter 'layer' still works, right?  Isn't there
> some other way of keeping track of that?  Steganography perhaps?  (OK,
> this would break if someone edited the image with another editor and
> altered the bits used to encode the metadata in a way that broke them,
> but so what?)  As for the thumbnails, they could be named with the
> md5sum hash of the file, allowing for a file to be renamed without
> forcing regeneration of the associated thumbnail.
>
>   
How about storing the metadata as textual data in the png-file?
http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/spec/iso/index-object.html#table41
Is the Textual data used for anything else?

Kind regards,
Tore

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Use cases: send a picture to Grandma; use as desktop background

[Ben A. <sy...@sa...>]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:03:29 +0100
John Popplewell <jo...@jo...> wrote:
> Unfortunately, when trying to email the image using the right-click
> 'Send To' menu, Outlook Express and Thunderbird both try and send the
> shortcut itself! The same happens if the Attach button is used or the
> shortcut is drag-n-dropped.

Ugggh.

> I don't know if there is a way round this, I'm struggling to think of a
> way in which this behaviour is useful :-)

Me too.  Does Vista have the same mis-feature, I wonder?

We've been talking about metadata without mentioning specifics.  All we
really mean is the association between a picture and the starter that
was used to create it, so that when the picture is edited again, the
code that handles the starter 'layer' still works, right?  Isn't there
some other way of keeping track of that?  Steganography perhaps?  (OK,
this would break if someone edited the image with another editor and
altered the bits used to encode the metadata in a way that broke them,
but so what?)  As for the thumbnails, they could be named with the
md5sum hash of the file, allowing for a file to be renamed without
forcing regeneration of the associated thumbnail.

Ben
--
 ,-.  nSLUG    http://www.nslug.ns.ca   sy...@sa...
 \`'  Debian   http://www.debian.org    sy...@de...
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Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Use cases: send a picture to Grandma; use as desktop background

[John P. <jo...@jo...>]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2007 at 10:54:09AM -0300, Ben Armstrong wrote:
> I'm still grappling with how a user would send a picture to Grandma or use
> it as the desktop background.
> <snip!>
>
> How about:
> 
> Keep the saved pictures and metadata where they are now, but put shortcuts
> in 'My Documents'/'My Pictures' (symlinks in Desktop/My Pictures) for each
> image.  Then if someone renames an image or deletes it, they are only
> renaming the shortcut (symlink) so they don't break the relationship with
> the metadata.
Hi Ben,

I tried this (on XP-SP2) and it seems to work quite well. It shows up as
a thumbnail when the view is set to thumbnails, and opens/edits the image in
the default image editing program. It also works for setting the desktop
background. 

Unfortunately, when trying to email the image using the right-click
'Send To' menu, Outlook Express and Thunderbird both try and send the
shortcut itself! The same happens if the Attach button is used or the
shortcut is drag-n-dropped.

I don't know if there is a way round this, I'm struggling to think of a
way in which this behaviour is useful :-)

Alternatively, I've got some code (Python, but using ctypes) that will
send an email using the default email client on Windows. It pops up a
compose window with (optional) recipients, subject, body and attachments
and can either be sent or discarded

http://www.johnnypops.demon.co.uk/python/simplemapi.py

It works with Outlook Express, Outlook 97 and 2000, Eudora, Incredimail
and Mozilla Thunderbird (1.5.0.2).

regards,
John.

> Of course, the user might reasonably expect that any image placed in this
> folder should be editable in Tux Paint, and would be surprised if it were
> not.  So maybe some sort of auto-import could handle this (or maybe just
> a big question-mark icon in the open dialog to indicate something is there
> but Tux Paint doesn't know what to do with it?)
> 
> Then we'd have to decide what to do if a user removes one of these links.
> Do we treat the image as deleted and remove the copy in the hidden dir too?
> 
> Ben
> --
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[Tuxpaint-devel] Use cases: send a picture to Grandma; use as desktop background

[Ben A. <sy...@sa...>]

I'm still grappling with how a user would send a picture to Grandma or use
it as the desktop background.

Maybe this?

v.0.9.19
- Further directory splitting (--metasavedir), to allow for, e.g., sensible
  'My Documents'/'My Pictures' use on Win32 [bjk]

How exactly would this work?  Supposing the metadata were put somewhere else
(hidden) and pictures in "My Pictures".  If you rename a picture, it will
lose its metadata because we use the filename to relate the two, which would
probably cause some puzzlement.

How about:

Keep the saved pictures and metadata where they are now, but put shortcuts
in 'My Documents'/'My Pictures' (symlinks in Desktop/My Pictures) for each
image.  Then if someone renames an image or deletes it, they are only
renaming the shortcut (symlink) so they don't break the relationship with
the metadata.

Of course, the user might reasonably expect that any image placed in this
folder should be editable in Tux Paint, and would be surprised if it were
not.  So maybe some sort of auto-import could handle this (or maybe just
a big question-mark icon in the open dialog to indicate something is there
but Tux Paint doesn't know what to do with it?)

Then we'd have to decide what to do if a user removes one of these links.
Do we treat the image as deleted and remove the copy in the hidden dir too?

Ben
--
 ,-.  nSLUG    http://www.nslug.ns.ca   sy...@sa...
 \`'  Debian   http://www.debian.org    sy...@de...
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[Tuxpaint-devel] Tux Paint South African Translation as part of Software Freedom Day

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

I just noticed this, via a Google News alert for the keyword "Tux Paint":

  http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?id=1717

It's about a large Software Freedom Day[*] event in Pretoria, South Africa.
During the event, 'Translate.org' will be translating Tux Paint and
the GNOME Games.

Here's their page with stats on Tux Paint.  It'll be fun to see how it
has changed by Sunday. :)

  http://pootle.translate.org.za/projects/tuxpaint/


* SFD is an annual, global event celebrating Free Software.  This year it's
  Saturday, September 15th.  http://www.softwarefreedomday.org/

-- 
-bill!
bi...@ne...
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Roadmap!

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Tue, Sep 11, 2007 at 11:20:52PM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:
> I have loads of letter stamps but I notice that you haven't added the
> recent ones to CVS (Portuguese/Scandinavian letters etc). I guess I
> should give them a break whilst we work out what to do with them (if
> anything)..

Yeah, I'm hesitant to cram stuff in there w/o good localization code,
or something, as it'll just clutter things up in there even worse. :)

-bill!

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Roadmap!

[Caroline F. <car...@go...>]

On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 23:01 -0700, Bill Kendrick wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 07:10:39AM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:
> > I would like to handle the alphabet stamps as part of a localised
> > content pack. We should install a slightly different set of stamps as a
> > default depending on locale. If your system is set up as es-ES you get
> > the spanish alphabet by default and stamps of Spanish things. For
> > bilingual areas you have the choice of adding extra locales.
> 
> I'm almost beginning to think that an Alphabet or Letters tool may be
> called for, though localization of stamp content is an interesting idea, too.

I have loads of letter stamps but I notice that you haven't added the
recent ones to CVS (Portuguese/Scandinavian letters etc). I guess I
should give them a break whilst we work out what to do with them (if
anything)..

Caroline

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Roadmap!

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Sun, Sep 02, 2007 at 07:10:39AM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote:
> I would like to handle the alphabet stamps as part of a localised
> content pack. We should install a slightly different set of stamps as a
> default depending on locale. If your system is set up as es-ES you get
> the spanish alphabet by default and stamps of Spanish things. For
> bilingual areas you have the choice of adding extra locales.

I'm almost beginning to think that an Alphabet or Letters tool may be
called for, though localization of stamp content is an interesting idea, too.


<snip>
> Localisation isn't just about translation :)

I'm learning this. ;)  (There are certainly MANY places I've gone in
Tux Paint that I did not imagine I'd go way back in 2002... plugins!?!? :) )

-- 
-bill!
bi...@ne...
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/

[Tuxpaint-devel] Tux Paint 0.9.18 'Magic' tool plugin preview for Win32

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

Wow, it's been about a month since John Popplewell sent me this email.
Sorry it took so long to pass it along.  (John, let us know if you have
a newer build :^) )


John wrote:
<snip>
> 
> I've had a bit of a session and the current CVS now builds on Windows
> and I don't seem to have broken anything on Linux :-)
> 
> I'm still using the wobbly SVG library and no Pango cause of Win9x/ME
> compatibility problems, but the plugins work.
> 
> I really like some of the new ones :-)

John's speaking of the new Magic Tools, and the new 'Magic tool as a
plugin system' improvement that's coming in Tux Paint 0.9.18...


> Here is a snap-shot in case anyone else wants a play:
> 
<snip>


I've placed John's test version (0.9.18cvs-2007-08-13-win32) up on the
tuxpaint.org FTP site:

  ftp://ftp.tuxpaint.org/unix/x/tuxpaint/testbuilds/win32/

Please feel free to try it out and give us your comments!


Thanks!

-- 
-bill!
bi...@ne...
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/

[Tuxpaint-devel] Debian packages site has a new look

[Ben A. <sy...@sa...>]

Our listings at packages.debian.org look great now, and are more functional
as well:

http://packages.debian.org/tuxpaint

Ben
--
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Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Roadmap!

[Caroline F. <car...@go...>]

On Sun, 2007-08-19 at 23:52 +0200, Pere Pujal i Carabantes wrote:

> Pre or post 1.0    Enhance stamps presentation in order to show very
> similar stamps in a more compact way.
> 
> Say we have four stamps for a letter in alphabets (filled-oulined
> Caps-lower) or six apples or eight european coins etc. Consider to popup
> a chooser for those who are closer enouth but can't go on a separate
> holder or instead implement a solution like stickers do.
> 
> Copy/pasted from http://users.powernet.co.uk/kienzle/stickers/:
> 
> "The stickers across the bottom come in related sets. If you click on an
> unselected sticker, it will become the selected sticker and you can then
> paste it into your scene. If you then click on the selected sticker, it
> will change to the next sticker in the set."

I would like to handle the alphabet stamps as part of a localised
content pack. We should install a slightly different set of stamps as a
default depending on locale. If your system is set up as es-ES you get
the spanish alphabet by default and stamps of Spanish things. For
bilingual areas you have the choice of adding extra locales.

For example a London primary school would get en_GB by default but could
install extra packs giving Caribbean or Bengali content (or whatever
cultural groups are common in their students).

The default would still be mixed and international in scope but without
needing to download all the extras for all users.

For example - we have a stamp of a US mailbox, we also have a stamp of a
UK postbox. Do we need a stamp of every local equivalent? Yes! - but but
it would quickly become too much in file size and content terms. (Who
would want to plough through 100 stamps of post boxes?)

Localisation isn't just about translation :)

Caroline

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Digital Arts & Crafts Studio

[<tor...@at...>]

Bill Kendrick wrote:
> I saw this kit at a store recently:
>
>   http://www.fisher-price.com/us/products/product.asp?id=40693
>
> USD$50 gets you a USB-based drawing pad (which also includes some other
> button-like devices for doing things like changing drawing tools), as well
> as some software that's presumably not unlike Tux Paint.
>
> Has anyone here played with one of these?  I'm wondering if the device
> just ends up being a mouse/keyboard to the Operating System.  If so,
> supporting (most of) it(s features) in Tux Paint should be trivial,
> and it would Just Work (tm) on pretty much all desktop platforms that
> Tux Paint supports (Windows, Mac OS X, Linux and, I assume, BeOS).
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>   
I assume it works pretty much as other tablets, which is as a mouse with 
absolute positioning (i.e. if you
lift the pen and put it in the upper left corner, the pointer stands 
still until you put the pen down, and then
moves instantly to the upper left corner of the screen). Of course most 
tablets also support pressure level,
and some support angle. The buttons will probably send keyboard sequences.

It will require the driver to work (which means it will only work with 
Windows out of the box). You will
probably not be able to change the keyboard sequences like you would on 
a normal tablet with menu hot-spots.
If it works like a keyboard, it should be easy to find out which 
sequences it send, so the poor documentation
shouldn't be a big problem. It may be impossibe (without hacking the 
driver) to prevent the button with the
power symbol to start the original program, and in worst case, that 
button is a real power button for the tablet
in addition to starting/shutting down the program.

In other words, the only way to find out is to buy one and try. The next 
question of course is whether it will be
easier to use than a Wacom Graphire or some cheap brand tablet (which 
support pressure levels).

Kind regards,
Tore

[Tuxpaint-devel] Digital Arts & Crafts Studio

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

I saw this kit at a store recently:

  http://www.fisher-price.com/us/products/product.asp?id=40693

USD$50 gets you a USB-based drawing pad (which also includes some other
button-like devices for doing things like changing drawing tools), as well
as some software that's presumably not unlike Tux Paint.

Has anyone here played with one of these?  I'm wondering if the device
just ends up being a mouse/keyboard to the Operating System.  If so,
supporting (most of) it(s features) in Tux Paint should be trivial,
and it would Just Work (tm) on pretty much all desktop platforms that
Tux Paint supports (Windows, Mac OS X, Linux and, I assume, BeOS).

Thanks in advance,

-- 
-bill!
bi...@ne...
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Roadmap!

[Pere P. i C. <pe...@fo...>]

El ds 11 de 08 del 2007 a les 12:04 -0700, en/na Bill Kendrick va
escriure:
> 
> http://www.tuxpaint.org/docs/ROADMAP.txt
> 
> :)

Just some ideas:

Pre 1.0    An eraser (undoable) for the full draw, maybe with special
effects.



Pre and/or post 1.0   More stamp controls (rotation, brightness, hue,
saturation, reset to original values...)




Pre or post 1.0    Enhance stamps presentation in order to show very
similar stamps in a more compact way.

Say we have four stamps for a letter in alphabets (filled-oulined
Caps-lower) or six apples or eight european coins etc. Consider to popup
a chooser for those who are closer enouth but can't go on a separate
holder or instead implement a solution like stickers do.

Copy/pasted from http://users.powernet.co.uk/kienzle/stickers/:

"The stickers across the bottom come in related sets. If you click on an
unselected sticker, it will become the selected sticker and you can then
paste it into your scene. If you then click on the selected sticker, it
will change to the next sticker in the set."



Post-1.0  Change stamps handling to assetml like childsplay or gcompris
do, allowing other apps to easy use our stamps or images. And allowing
tuxpaint to easy use their images :)
http://www.ofset.org/assetml


Post 1.0  Think on a way to present filesystem to child. May be a draw
of a tree with thumbnails as leafs for open, save or remove draws.




Yours
Pere

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Roadmap!

[Bill K. <nb...@so...>]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 03:39:35PM +0200, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:
> Laurdag 11. august 2007 skreiv Bill Kendrick:
> >http://www.tuxpaint.org/docs/ROADMAP.txt
> 
> I think ~complete translations for most languages
> should be a prerequisite for a 1.0 release.

Heh, thus guaranteeing 1.0 will never happen. ;^)

-bill!

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] Roadmap!

[Karl O. H. <ka...@hu...>]

Laurdag 11. august 2007 skreiv Bill Kendrick:
>http://www.tuxpaint.org/docs/ROADMAP.txt

I think ~complete translations for most languages
should be a prerequisite for a 1.0 release.

-- 
Karl Ove Hufthammer