springframework-developer — Spring Framework developers list

[Springframework-developer] Old wrox archive

[Travis C. <tra...@le...>]

Does anyone have a copy of the archived discussions that lead to the =
formation of this effort?

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Travis L. Chase
Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer (MCSD)
Senior Programmer Analyst
Leggett & Platt, Inc.
tra...@le...
417-358-8131 ext.3865
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living=20
 thing can go against it." - G. K. Chesterton

"Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which=20
 is an elegant name for ignorance." - G. K. Chesterton

=20

[Springframework-developer] Spring metaphor

[Ken K. <kk...@kk...>]

I have another kind of wacky idea for a metaphor for Spring.

I see Spring as a collection of essentially independent mini-frameworks, 
i.e. "springs", i.e. bean configuration, validation, jdbc 
simplification, jdni simplification, etc. These clear, clean, and pure 
little "springs" can flow together to form a mighty J2EE river for the 
developer's ideas.

Does anybody like this idea ?

Could a suitable logo be built around this idea ?


Ken

Re: [Springframework-developer] database for demos

[Rod J. <rod...@in...>]

>I do wish they
> would separate the JBoss Group from JBoss the Open Source Project more
> clearly.  Right now they share the website and it is hard to tell where
> the line is drawn.
Absolutely. Selling consultancy around a product, whether open source or
commercial, is absolutely fine. But when there's no division between OSS
development and a commercial operation there's always a risk that the open
source offering will intentionally leave gaps for the consulting to fill.
(Not that I think there's a problem with JBoss as a product.)

Re: [Springframework-developer] database for demos

[Thomas R. <tri...@tr...>]

Rod,

> And when another publisher publishes a
> book on JBoss (as with the recent Wrox book) the JBoss guys go onto The
> ServerSide and their own forums and tell people not to buy that book.
I felt
> quite angry about that, as I know the author of the JBoss book.

That angered me too, so I went to the bookstore a bought the book.  A
lot of their antics annoy me, but there are also other offenders out
there.  I guess it is part of a competitive landscape.  I do wish they
would separate the JBoss Group from JBoss the Open Source Project more
clearly.  Right now they share the website and it is hard to tell where
the line is drawn.

> I think the idea of making money through the docs is absurd, both as
part of
> a business model and on principle. 

There is some basic documentation avaliable for free - enough to get
someone started.  I don't have a problem paying a little for additional
documentation.

Thomas

Re: [Springframework-developer] database for demos

[Rod J. <rod...@in...>]

> I just read parts of it and there is a default datasource for HSQLDB
> already set up "java:/DefaultDS".
Good point. I'd forgotten this.

 It also mentions that you can just
> copy configuration files into the "deploy" directory and anything named
> *-service.xml is hot deployed.  That way we could just provide
> configuration files and, using an Ant task, copy them to the deploy
> directory.
Yes, I've used this successfully. Each -service.xml file can contain any
number of separate configurations, e.g. datasource + JMS destinations. I
think it compares well to deployment on other servers.

While I love Orion's startup speed (JBoss has been a bit slow since 3.0
beta) it's always seemed harder to automate deployment. The global XML files
always seem to need new elements.

However, I would still favour Orion of the two--I'd just like to hear if
anyone has managed to use a "just copy these files" approach to Orion, as
opposed to "copy these files and add these elements to this file".

Rod

Re: [Springframework-developer] database for demos

[Rod J. <rod...@in...>]

I think the idea of making money through the docs is absurd, both as part of
a business model and on principle. And when another publisher publishes a
book on JBoss (as with the recent Wrox book) the JBoss guys go onto The
ServerSide and their own forums and tell people not to buy that book. I felt
quite angry about that, as I know the author of the JBoss book.

Regards,
Rod

> JBoss - I've actually nothing against it, except that i think it's hard to
configure for novices. And I certainly have nothing against teh JBoss guys
trying to capitalize on their hard work. But it has become almost impossible
to find anything useful on their site. There are no samples, no tutorials,
and all the links to old versions/tutorials/docs are broken. So it's shell
out or starve. And that to me is against the spirit of open source. People
will end up paying for JBoss because that's the only way to get any docs or
support. And that's wrong. There should be free docs and free community
support. If anyone ends up paying for support, it should be because they
want their hands held.
>
> If JMX4ant works well that would indeed help.
>
> Isabelle
>
> On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 11:46:50AM -0400, Thomas Risberg wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > This has been a busy weekend and I think we are making great progress.
> >
> > A few comments:
> >
> > > (1) The database. I'm in favor of mySQL because a lot of documentation
> > can be found for it and is moving more and more towards a very mature
> > product. It is also very widespread, for ex. all the webhosters I know
> > are offering it. And it's really a plus that one can find good books
> > about it, besides all the info on the web. Plus it comes pre-installed
> > on linux boxes.
> >
> > My guess is that the vast majority of all MySQL installations don't have
> > InnoDB support enabled.  This means that you don't have any transaction
> > support.  Configuring MySQL to use InnoDB is not that hard, but it still
> > requires an additional step.  Installing HSQLDB is a nobrainer and any
> > JDBC book should give you enough info on how to use it.
> >
> > > (2) The application server. I think JBoss is moving away from the open
> > source spirit, and in addition it is quite hard to customize
> > (datasources etc). And you have to shell out money for the docs or buy a
> > book. So if we forget about the open source aspect for a minute, it
> > seems to me we are left with 2 options : Orion and JRun, both free for
> > developers. It's been a while since I've worked with Orion, but have
> > heard good things about it. I'm using JRun, and am quite pleased with
it.
> >
> > I don't agree with you that JBoss is moving away from the open source
> > spirit - they are just trying to capitalize on their hard work.  The
> > source is still available for JBoss.  Even if they were, they are still
> > more open than our other choices.
> >
> > I think we should select an app server based on the services/features
> > that we require and the ease of configuring these services.  I have some
> > JBoss experience but almost no Orion experience so I am going by what I
> > can quickkly learn from their documentation.
> >
> > Both JBoss and Orion are very easy to install -- unzip.
> >
> > Adding a Datasource seems to be much easier in Orion.  The JBoss
> > configuration seems much more complex.  However, JBoss is based on JMX
> > and if we could run a script that configures everything we need, then
> > this would be less of an issue.
> >
> > Coming from a datbase beckground where you can do pretty much anything
> > from SQL/DDL scripts, it has always surprised me that there has been
> > little support by the app server vendors for scripted configuration of
> > their servers.  Having someone manually modifying configuration files on
> > a production server seems very error prone to me.  There is some new
> > development in this area though.  You can configure some WebLogic
> > services using WLScript, and 8.1 is supposed to come with Ant tasks for
> > configuring the MBeans.
> >
> > There is an open source project JMX4Ant
> > (http://jmx4ant.sourceforge.net/) that does provide Ant tasks for JMX
> > enabled app servers.  It currently supports WebLogic and JBoss.  I
> > planning on trying this out next week and I will let you know if this
> > would help us in the configuration area.  It would be nice to have a few
> > Ant targets for installing and configuring the required app server.
> >
> > > (3) The logo. We shouldn't mix metaphors, so if we go with the spring
> > for the letter i, then we shouldn't use a cherry blossom or  whatever
> > for the cartoon.
> >
> > Agree, we should pick one or the other.
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > Welcome to geek heaven.
> > http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> > _______________________________________________
> > Springframework-developer mailing list
> > Spr...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> >
> >
>
> --
> Isabelle Muszynski
> Software Engineer
> Zandweellaan 4
> 2660 Antwerpen
> Belgium
> Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
> Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
> Email: isa...@me...
> Website: www.meta-logix.com
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Springframework-developer mailing list
> Spr...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer

Re: [Springframework-developer] database for demos

[Thomas R. <tri...@tr...>]

Isabelle,

O'Reilly is publishing companion books to Monson_Haefel's "Enterprise
Java Beans".  There is a beta version of the JBoss 3.0 one available for
free at http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/entjbeans3/workbooks/index.html 

I just read parts of it and there is a default datasource for HSQLDB
already set up "java:/DefaultDS".  It also mentions that you can just
copy configuration files into the "deploy" directory and anything named
*-service.xml is hot deployed.  That way we could just provide
configuration files and, using an Ant task, copy them to the deploy
directory.

Thomas






> Hi Thomas,
> 
> I'll try to get HSQLDB working this week. I'm not rabid about the DB
issue, whatever works. Are there tools to create tables etc? With MySQL
there is a choice of tools, and I think that's important for our
prospective tutorial users (i.e. not force them to work straight with DDL).
> 
> JBoss - I've actually nothing against it, except that i think it's
hard to configure for novices. And I certainly have nothing against teh
JBoss guys trying to capitalize on their hard work. But it has become
almost impossible to find anything useful on their site. There are no
samples, no tutorials, and all the links to old versions/tutorials/docs
are broken. So it's shell out or starve. And that to me is against the
spirit of open source. People will end up paying for JBoss because
that's the only way to get any docs or support. And that's wrong. There
should be free docs and free community support. If anyone ends up paying
for support, it should be because they want their hands held.
> 
> If JMX4ant works well that would indeed help.
> 
> Isabelle
> 
> On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 11:46:50AM -0400, Thomas Risberg wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > This has been a busy weekend and I think we are making great progress.
> > 
> > A few comments:
> > 
> > > (1) The database. I'm in favor of mySQL because a lot of documentation
> > can be found for it and is moving more and more towards a very mature
> > product. It is also very widespread, for ex. all the webhosters I know
> > are offering it. And it's really a plus that one can find good books
> > about it, besides all the info on the web. Plus it comes pre-installed
> > on linux boxes.
> > 
> > My guess is that the vast majority of all MySQL installations don't have
> > InnoDB support enabled.  This means that you don't have any transaction
> > support.  Configuring MySQL to use InnoDB is not that hard, but it still
> > requires an additional step.  Installing HSQLDB is a nobrainer and any
> > JDBC book should give you enough info on how to use it.
> > 
> > > (2) The application server. I think JBoss is moving away from the open
> > source spirit, and in addition it is quite hard to customize
> > (datasources etc). And you have to shell out money for the docs or buy a
> > book. So if we forget about the open source aspect for a minute, it
> > seems to me we are left with 2 options : Orion and JRun, both free for
> > developers. It's been a while since I've worked with Orion, but have
> > heard good things about it. I'm using JRun, and am quite pleased
with it.
> > 
> > I don't agree with you that JBoss is moving away from the open source
> > spirit - they are just trying to capitalize on their hard work.  The
> > source is still available for JBoss.  Even if they were, they are still
> > more open than our other choices.  
> > 
> > I think we should select an app server based on the services/features
> > that we require and the ease of configuring these services.  I have some
> > JBoss experience but almost no Orion experience so I am going by what I
> > can quickkly learn from their documentation.
> > 
> > Both JBoss and Orion are very easy to install -- unzip.
> > 
> > Adding a Datasource seems to be much easier in Orion.  The JBoss
> > configuration seems much more complex.  However, JBoss is based on JMX
> > and if we could run a script that configures everything we need, then
> > this would be less of an issue.  
> > 
> > Coming from a datbase beckground where you can do pretty much anything
> > from SQL/DDL scripts, it has always surprised me that there has been
> > little support by the app server vendors for scripted configuration of
> > their servers.  Having someone manually modifying configuration files on
> > a production server seems very error prone to me.  There is some new
> > development in this area though.  You can configure some WebLogic
> > services using WLScript, and 8.1 is supposed to come with Ant tasks for
> > configuring the MBeans.  
> > 
> > There is an open source project JMX4Ant
> > (http://jmx4ant.sourceforge.net/) that does provide Ant tasks for JMX
> > enabled app servers.  It currently supports WebLogic and JBoss.  I
> > planning on trying this out next week and I will let you know if this
> > would help us in the configuration area.  It would be nice to have a few
> > Ant targets for installing and configuring the required app server.
> > 
> > > (3) The logo. We shouldn't mix metaphors, so if we go with the spring
> > for the letter i, then we shouldn't use a cherry blossom or  whatever
> > for the cartoon.
> > 
> > Agree, we should pick one or the other.
> > 
> > Thomas
> > 
> > 
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > Welcome to geek heaven.
> > http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> > _______________________________________________
> > Springframework-developer mailing list
> > Spr...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Isabelle Muszynski
> Software Engineer
> Zandweellaan 4
> 2660 Antwerpen
> Belgium
> Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
> Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
> Email: isa...@me...
> Website: www.meta-logix.com
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Springframework-developer mailing list
> Spr...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> 
> 

Re: [Springframework-developer] database for demos

[Isabelle M. <isa...@me...>]

Hi Thomas,

I'll try to get HSQLDB working this week. I'm not rabid about the DB issue, whatever works. Are there tools to create tables etc? With MySQL there is a choice of tools, and I think that's important for our prospective tutorial users (i.e. not force them to work straight with DDL).

JBoss - I've actually nothing against it, except that i think it's hard to configure for novices. And I certainly have nothing against teh JBoss guys trying to capitalize on their hard work. But it has become almost impossible to find anything useful on their site. There are no samples, no tutorials, and all the links to old versions/tutorials/docs are broken. So it's shell out or starve. And that to me is against the spirit of open source. People will end up paying for JBoss because that's the only way to get any docs or support. And that's wrong. There should be free docs and free community support. If anyone ends up paying for support, it should be because they want their hands held.

If JMX4ant works well that would indeed help.

Isabelle

On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 11:46:50AM -0400, Thomas Risberg wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> This has been a busy weekend and I think we are making great progress.
> 
> A few comments:
> 
> > (1) The database. I'm in favor of mySQL because a lot of documentation
> can be found for it and is moving more and more towards a very mature
> product. It is also very widespread, for ex. all the webhosters I know
> are offering it. And it's really a plus that one can find good books
> about it, besides all the info on the web. Plus it comes pre-installed
> on linux boxes.
> 
> My guess is that the vast majority of all MySQL installations don't have
> InnoDB support enabled.  This means that you don't have any transaction
> support.  Configuring MySQL to use InnoDB is not that hard, but it still
> requires an additional step.  Installing HSQLDB is a nobrainer and any
> JDBC book should give you enough info on how to use it.
> 
> > (2) The application server. I think JBoss is moving away from the open
> source spirit, and in addition it is quite hard to customize
> (datasources etc). And you have to shell out money for the docs or buy a
> book. So if we forget about the open source aspect for a minute, it
> seems to me we are left with 2 options : Orion and JRun, both free for
> developers. It's been a while since I've worked with Orion, but have
> heard good things about it. I'm using JRun, and am quite pleased with it.
> 
> I don't agree with you that JBoss is moving away from the open source
> spirit - they are just trying to capitalize on their hard work.  The
> source is still available for JBoss.  Even if they were, they are still
> more open than our other choices.  
> 
> I think we should select an app server based on the services/features
> that we require and the ease of configuring these services.  I have some
> JBoss experience but almost no Orion experience so I am going by what I
> can quickkly learn from their documentation.
> 
> Both JBoss and Orion are very easy to install -- unzip.
> 
> Adding a Datasource seems to be much easier in Orion.  The JBoss
> configuration seems much more complex.  However, JBoss is based on JMX
> and if we could run a script that configures everything we need, then
> this would be less of an issue.  
> 
> Coming from a datbase beckground where you can do pretty much anything
> from SQL/DDL scripts, it has always surprised me that there has been
> little support by the app server vendors for scripted configuration of
> their servers.  Having someone manually modifying configuration files on
> a production server seems very error prone to me.  There is some new
> development in this area though.  You can configure some WebLogic
> services using WLScript, and 8.1 is supposed to come with Ant tasks for
> configuring the MBeans.  
> 
> There is an open source project JMX4Ant
> (http://jmx4ant.sourceforge.net/) that does provide Ant tasks for JMX
> enabled app servers.  It currently supports WebLogic and JBoss.  I
> planning on trying this out next week and I will let you know if this
> would help us in the configuration area.  It would be nice to have a few
> Ant targets for installing and configuring the required app server.
> 
> > (3) The logo. We shouldn't mix metaphors, so if we go with the spring
> for the letter i, then we shouldn't use a cherry blossom or  whatever
> for the cartoon.
> 
> Agree, we should pick one or the other.
> 
> Thomas
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Springframework-developer mailing list
> Spr...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> 
> 

-- 
Isabelle Muszynski
Software Engineer
Zandweellaan 4
2660 Antwerpen
Belgium
Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
Email: isa...@me...
Website: www.meta-logix.com

Re: [Springframework-developer] Spring Framework Logo

[Isabelle M. <isa...@me...>]

Well, if "J2EE made easy" is not quite right, how about "J2EE for the masses"? Just kidding. Maybe "J2EE the right way" or something in that direction?
Or "The road to J2EE"
Or "J2EE Nirvana"
Or "The Zen of J2EE"
I actually kind of like the last two...

Isabelle

On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 01:44:36PM +0100, Rod Johnson wrote:
> I like Thomas's Japanese-inspired logo (although it could do with refinment,
> of course).  I like the fact that it's a bit minimalistic: to me Spring is
> about trying to simplify and strip down to essentials.
> 
> But I must say I also like Travis's original direction and Juergen's. With
> these I could really see how the web site could get its whole look and feel
> from the logo.
> 
> I think it's great we've got a choice: thanks very much for putting in all
> this work!
> 
> The hard bit is how we decide. I think it would be great if we could get all
> the preferred candidates (say by next weekend) up on a single web page.
> 
> Obviously we want all Spring developers happy with what we choose. But we
> also need to think about what will be attractive to prospective Spring
> users, rather than developers. Maybe we could each try to poll colleagues
> about the choices and report their choices and any comments. With an
> emphasis on whether the logo would have any effect, good or bad, on whether
> they'd want to download from that page.
> 
> I agree with Luke's point that "J2EE made easy" isn't quite right. Not far
> off, though.
> 
> Regards,
> Rod
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Risberg" <tri...@tr...>
> To: <spr...@li...>
> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 5:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Springframework-developer] Spring Framework Logo
> 
> 
> > And now for something completely different ...
> >
> > I don't even know if I like this one, but I thought that we should have
> > a few different logos to choose from.
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> > > Rod Johnson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I can certainly see this logo working in well with an overall site
> > design.
> > > >
> > > > My original thoughts for a logo were based around spring the
> > season--maybe
> > > > based on a photo of budding trees or the like. But I badly lack
> > graphical
> > > > flair.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Spring as a season sounds good. Maybe you could incorporate a Japanese
> > > cherry blossom symbol or something like that - they're nice and simple
> > > and make good logos:
> > >
> > > http://www.geobop.com/Symbols/flags/images/Japan/FukuokaSaga.gif
> > >
> > > http://www.fotw.ca/images/jp_pm-sc.gif
> > >
> > > I think "J2EE made easy" sounds a bit glib as a strapline...
> > >
> > > --
> > >   Luke Taylor.                      Monkey Machine Ltd.
> > >   PGP Key ID: 0x57E9523C            http://www.monkeymachine.ltd.uk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > > Welcome to geek heaven.
> > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Springframework-developer mailing list
> > > Spr...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Springframework-developer mailing list
> Spr...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> 
> 

-- 
Isabelle Muszynski
Software Engineer
Zandweellaan 4
2660 Antwerpen
Belgium
Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
Email: isa...@me...
Website: www.meta-logix.com

Re: [Springframework-developer] website

[Rod J. <rod...@in...>]

I think Maven could make everyone's life easier by generating Javadoc,
source cross-reference etc. But I agree with Isabelle, for 1.0 we will stick
with Ant as our build tool and whatever we do with Maven must make things
easier, not harder. I think we could use it to generate some parts of the
web site even for 1.0.

Regards,
Rod

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Risberg" <tri...@tr...>
To: <spr...@li...>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Springframework-developer] website


> I think Isabelle meant the upp front work of figuring out how to use
> Maven.  The amount of new APIs/utilities/frameworks that we have to keep
> up with is overwhelming, and sometimes it is better to stick with what
> you already know.  On the other hand, if there is a project member that
> already knows Maven and is willing to do the configuration/education
> that is necessary, then this would be a nice option.  You and Luke seems
> to be the ones with Maven experience.
>
> Thomas
>
> > I thought the whole point of maven was to reduce the amount of work
> > needed to create a project web site and documentation.
> >
> > If maven is too "heavy weight", perhaps the Forrest project would be
> > more to your liking.  The docs are in a "docbook-lite" XML
> > format and out of the box it generates HTML and PDF.  Having the site
> > and docs in XML will make it easier to keep the site
> > consistent and make it easier for folks to contribute good docs.
> >
> > I am currently working on a doc for the uPortal project using Forrest.
> > Here are example links:
> >
> > source document:
> > http://rci.rutgers.edu/~wgthom/forrest/site/eclipse-uportal-howto.xml
> > generated html:
> > http://rci.rutgers.edu/~wgthom/forrest/site/eclipse-uportal-howto.html
> > generated pdf:
> > http://rci.rutgers.edu/~wgthom/forrest/site/eclipse-uportal-howto.pdf
> >
> > later.
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> > Isabelle Muszynski wrote:
> > > Hi guys,
> > >
> > > Forgot one point : maven.
> > > I think we already have a lot to worry about (i.e. work for) without
> adding one more ingredient to the stew. Maven looks really good, and we
> should use it at some point, but can we please try to get a release out
> without having to learn yet one more thing?
> > > If we talk about a standard format for docs, then I like docbook and
> FOP. But it means having to write xml, which isn't as easy as writing
text.
> > > Right now I'm planning to produce PDF's for the docs, it's portable
> and everybody has a viewer. I'll also be able to produce HTML from the
> docs, so that we can put an online version on the website.
> > >
> > > Isabelle
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > Welcome to geek heaven.
> > http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> > _______________________________________________
> > Springframework-developer mailing list
> > Spr...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> >
> >
>
> --
> Thomas Risberg
> tri...@tr...
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Springframework-developer mailing list
> Spr...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer

Re: [Springframework-developer] database for demos

[Thomas R. <tri...@tr...>]

Hi all,

This has been a busy weekend and I think we are making great progress.

A few comments:

> (1) The database. I'm in favor of mySQL because a lot of documentation
can be found for it and is moving more and more towards a very mature
product. It is also very widespread, for ex. all the webhosters I know
are offering it. And it's really a plus that one can find good books
about it, besides all the info on the web. Plus it comes pre-installed
on linux boxes.

My guess is that the vast majority of all MySQL installations don't have
InnoDB support enabled.  This means that you don't have any transaction
support.  Configuring MySQL to use InnoDB is not that hard, but it still
requires an additional step.  Installing HSQLDB is a nobrainer and any
JDBC book should give you enough info on how to use it.

> (2) The application server. I think JBoss is moving away from the open
source spirit, and in addition it is quite hard to customize
(datasources etc). And you have to shell out money for the docs or buy a
book. So if we forget about the open source aspect for a minute, it
seems to me we are left with 2 options : Orion and JRun, both free for
developers. It's been a while since I've worked with Orion, but have
heard good things about it. I'm using JRun, and am quite pleased with it.

I don't agree with you that JBoss is moving away from the open source
spirit - they are just trying to capitalize on their hard work.  The
source is still available for JBoss.  Even if they were, they are still
more open than our other choices.  

I think we should select an app server based on the services/features
that we require and the ease of configuring these services.  I have some
JBoss experience but almost no Orion experience so I am going by what I
can quickkly learn from their documentation.

Both JBoss and Orion are very easy to install -- unzip.

Adding a Datasource seems to be much easier in Orion.  The JBoss
configuration seems much more complex.  However, JBoss is based on JMX
and if we could run a script that configures everything we need, then
this would be less of an issue.  

Coming from a datbase beckground where you can do pretty much anything
from SQL/DDL scripts, it has always surprised me that there has been
little support by the app server vendors for scripted configuration of
their servers.  Having someone manually modifying configuration files on
a production server seems very error prone to me.  There is some new
development in this area though.  You can configure some WebLogic
services using WLScript, and 8.1 is supposed to come with Ant tasks for
configuring the MBeans.  

There is an open source project JMX4Ant
(http://jmx4ant.sourceforge.net/) that does provide Ant tasks for JMX
enabled app servers.  It currently supports WebLogic and JBoss.  I
planning on trying this out next week and I will let you know if this
would help us in the configuration area.  It would be nice to have a few
Ant targets for installing and configuring the required app server.

> (3) The logo. We shouldn't mix metaphors, so if we go with the spring
for the letter i, then we shouldn't use a cherry blossom or  whatever
for the cartoon.

Agree, we should pick one or the other.

Thomas

Re: [Springframework-developer] website

[Thomas R. <tri...@tr...>]

I think Isabelle meant the upp front work of figuring out how to use
Maven.  The amount of new APIs/utilities/frameworks that we have to keep
up with is overwhelming, and sometimes it is better to stick with what
you already know.  On the other hand, if there is a project member that
already knows Maven and is willing to do the configuration/education
that is necessary, then this would be a nice option.  You and Luke seems
to be the ones with Maven experience.

Thomas

> I thought the whole point of maven was to reduce the amount of work 
> needed to create a project web site and documentation.
> 
> If maven is too "heavy weight", perhaps the Forrest project would be 
> more to your liking.  The docs are in a "docbook-lite" XML
> format and out of the box it generates HTML and PDF.  Having the site 
> and docs in XML will make it easier to keep the site
> consistent and make it easier for folks to contribute good docs.
> 
> I am currently working on a doc for the uPortal project using Forrest. 
> Here are example links:
> 
> source document: 
> http://rci.rutgers.edu/~wgthom/forrest/site/eclipse-uportal-howto.xml
> generated html: 
> http://rci.rutgers.edu/~wgthom/forrest/site/eclipse-uportal-howto.html
> generated pdf: 
> http://rci.rutgers.edu/~wgthom/forrest/site/eclipse-uportal-howto.pdf
> 
> later.
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> Isabelle Muszynski wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> > 
> > Forgot one point : maven.
> > I think we already have a lot to worry about (i.e. work for) without
adding one more ingredient to the stew. Maven looks really good, and we
should use it at some point, but can we please try to get a release out
without having to learn yet one more thing? 
> > If we talk about a standard format for docs, then I like docbook and
FOP. But it means having to write xml, which isn't as easy as writing text.
> > Right now I'm planning to produce PDF's for the docs, it's portable
and everybody has a viewer. I'll also be able to produce HTML from the
docs, so that we can put an online version on the website.
> > 
> > Isabelle
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Springframework-developer mailing list
> Spr...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> 
> 

-- 
Thomas Risberg
tri...@tr...

Re: [Springframework-developer] website

[William G. T. Jr. <wg...@rc...>]

I thought the whole point of maven was to reduce the amount of work 
needed to create a project web site and documentation.

If maven is too "heavy weight", perhaps the Forrest project would be 
more to your liking.  The docs are in a "docbook-lite" XML
format and out of the box it generates HTML and PDF.  Having the site 
and docs in XML will make it easier to keep the site
consistent and make it easier for folks to contribute good docs.

I am currently working on a doc for the uPortal project using Forrest. 
Here are example links:

source document: 
http://rci.rutgers.edu/~wgthom/forrest/site/eclipse-uportal-howto.xml
generated html: 
http://rci.rutgers.edu/~wgthom/forrest/site/eclipse-uportal-howto.html
generated pdf: 
http://rci.rutgers.edu/~wgthom/forrest/site/eclipse-uportal-howto.pdf

later.
Bill



Isabelle Muszynski wrote:
> Hi guys,
> 
> Forgot one point : maven.
> I think we already have a lot to worry about (i.e. work for) without adding one more ingredient to the stew. Maven looks really good, and we should use it at some point, but can we please try to get a release out without having to learn yet one more thing? 
> If we talk about a standard format for docs, then I like docbook and FOP. But it means having to write xml, which isn't as easy as writing text.
> Right now I'm planning to produce PDF's for the docs, it's portable and everybody has a viewer. I'll also be able to produce HTML from the docs, so that we can put an online version on the website.
> 
> Isabelle
> 

Re: [Springframework-developer] Spring Framework Logo

[Rod J. <rod...@in...>]

I like Thomas's Japanese-inspired logo (although it could do with refinment,
of course).  I like the fact that it's a bit minimalistic: to me Spring is
about trying to simplify and strip down to essentials.

But I must say I also like Travis's original direction and Juergen's. With
these I could really see how the web site could get its whole look and feel
from the logo.

I think it's great we've got a choice: thanks very much for putting in all
this work!

The hard bit is how we decide. I think it would be great if we could get all
the preferred candidates (say by next weekend) up on a single web page.

Obviously we want all Spring developers happy with what we choose. But we
also need to think about what will be attractive to prospective Spring
users, rather than developers. Maybe we could each try to poll colleagues
about the choices and report their choices and any comments. With an
emphasis on whether the logo would have any effect, good or bad, on whether
they'd want to download from that page.

I agree with Luke's point that "J2EE made easy" isn't quite right. Not far
off, though.

Regards,
Rod

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Risberg" <tri...@tr...>
To: <spr...@li...>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Springframework-developer] Spring Framework Logo


> And now for something completely different ...
>
> I don't even know if I like this one, but I thought that we should have
> a few different logos to choose from.
>
> Thomas
>
> > Rod Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > > I can certainly see this logo working in well with an overall site
> design.
> > >
> > > My original thoughts for a logo were based around spring the
> season--maybe
> > > based on a photo of budding trees or the like. But I badly lack
> graphical
> > > flair.
> > >
> >
> > Spring as a season sounds good. Maybe you could incorporate a Japanese
> > cherry blossom symbol or something like that - they're nice and simple
> > and make good logos:
> >
> > http://www.geobop.com/Symbols/flags/images/Japan/FukuokaSaga.gif
> >
> > http://www.fotw.ca/images/jp_pm-sc.gif
> >
> > I think "J2EE made easy" sounds a bit glib as a strapline...
> >
> > --
> >   Luke Taylor.                      Monkey Machine Ltd.
> >   PGP Key ID: 0x57E9523C            http://www.monkeymachine.ltd.uk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > Welcome to geek heaven.
> > http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> > _______________________________________________
> > Springframework-developer mailing list
> > Spr...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [Springframework-developer] database for demos

[Rod J. <rod...@in...>]

> First of all, I like the idea of the two trails. Covering application
building and the main areas of functionality (that are usable on their own,
mostly) separately makes sense. This demonstrates that Spring isn't a "do
everything in our way or leave it" kind of framework, like so many so-called
"application frameworks", but a very modular and non-intrusive effort.

Good point. To me the fact that Spring is non-intrusive is one of its most
important characteristics and best features. For example, application
classes tend to expose JavaBean properties for Spring to configure rather
than implement Spring APIs. And Spring is about layering: if you want our
MVC, great, but if you don't you can use our bean factories with Struts or
WebWork for example.

Re: [Springframework-developer] database for demos

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Re: [Springframework-developer] database for demos

[Isabelle M. <isa...@me...>]

I have no problem with Orion. So to summarize, we will use just Tomcat for the parts that have no transactional requirements, e.g. demonstrating basic JDBC funtionality in the framework. The demo app can then use Orion.
By the way, maybe I didn't make this clear in the past but I plan on two trails in the demos. One trail is the petclinic, which is about building applications with Spring. The other trail is made up of subtrails corresponding to the main areas of functionality covered by Spring. So there would be a JDBC subtrail, a bean subtrail etc.

Isabelle

On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 10:55:42AM +0100, Rod Johnson wrote:
> My thoughts on app servers:
> 
> 1. Spring is about J2EE, not just the Servlet API. This means that JTA is
> part of the picture, which worries me about Tomcat.
> 2. Personally I've found JBoss pretty easy to set up, with a single XML file
> to define connection pools etc.
> 3. I think WLS is a good high-end container, but I absolutely don't favour
> using it for the demo. It's way too heavyweight.
> 4. Orion vs JRun: I like Orion a lot. I haven't tried 2.0 yet, but it's
> always been incredibly fast to deploy.  I had such a dreadful experience
> with JRun 3.0 that I'm very prejudiced now. I'm sure 4.0 is way better. But
> I would definitely vote for Orion of the two, as it's so lightweight. Also
> it's the basis for Oracle 9iAS, which I think will become a major player.
> 
> I vote that we have
> - a basic demo that works on Tomcat (because it is the ref impl) and Orion.
> Non transactional. Will think about Juergen's implementation suggestion for
> this. I was thinking about something along these lines this morning, but
> Juergen's proposal is better worked out.
> -more advanced demo on Orion. With instructions for JRun, Tomcat/Tyrex, WLS
> as extras when we get round to it.
> 
> I'm also a Jetty fan, but that's partly because it was written by a friend
> of a friend who went to the same university as I did.
> 
> Regards,
> Rod
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Isabelle Muszynski" <isa...@me...>
> To: <spr...@li...>
> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 8:56 AM
> Subject: [Springframework-developer] database for demos
> 
> 
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > A lot of activity on the mailing list overnight! A couple of thoughts :
> >
> > (1) The database. I'm in favor of mySQL because a lot of documentation can
> be found for it and is moving more and more towards a very mature product.
> It is also very widespread, for ex. all the webhosters I know are offering
> it. And it's really a plus that one can find good books about it, besides
> all the info on the web. Plus it comes pre-installed on linux boxes.
> > (2) The application server. I think JBoss is moving away from the open
> source spirit, and in addition it is quite hard to customize (datasources
> etc). And you have to shell out money for the docs or buy a book. So if we
> forget about the open source aspect for a minute, it seems to me we are left
> with 2 options : Orion and JRun, both free for developers. It's been a while
> since I've worked with Orion, but have heard good things about it. I'm using
> JRun, and am quite pleased with it.
> > (3) The logo. We shouldn't mix metaphors, so if we go with the spring for
> the letter i, then we shouldn't use a cherry blossom or whatever for the
> cartoon.
> >
> > Isabelle
> >
> > --
> > Isabelle Muszynski
> > Software Engineer
> > Zandweellaan 4
> > 2660 Antwerpen
> > Belgium
> > Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
> > Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
> > Email: isa...@me...
> > Website: www.meta-logix.com
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > Welcome to geek heaven.
> > http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> > _______________________________________________
> > Springframework-developer mailing list
> > Spr...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Springframework-developer mailing list
> Spr...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> 
> 

-- 
Isabelle Muszynski
Software Engineer
Zandweellaan 4
2660 Antwerpen
Belgium
Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
Email: isa...@me...
Website: www.meta-logix.com

Re: [Springframework-developer] database for demos

[Rod J. <rod...@in...>]

My thoughts on app servers:

1. Spring is about J2EE, not just the Servlet API. This means that JTA is
part of the picture, which worries me about Tomcat.
2. Personally I've found JBoss pretty easy to set up, with a single XML file
to define connection pools etc.
3. I think WLS is a good high-end container, but I absolutely don't favour
using it for the demo. It's way too heavyweight.
4. Orion vs JRun: I like Orion a lot. I haven't tried 2.0 yet, but it's
always been incredibly fast to deploy.  I had such a dreadful experience
with JRun 3.0 that I'm very prejudiced now. I'm sure 4.0 is way better. But
I would definitely vote for Orion of the two, as it's so lightweight. Also
it's the basis for Oracle 9iAS, which I think will become a major player.

I vote that we have
- a basic demo that works on Tomcat (because it is the ref impl) and Orion.
Non transactional. Will think about Juergen's implementation suggestion for
this. I was thinking about something along these lines this morning, but
Juergen's proposal is better worked out.
-more advanced demo on Orion. With instructions for JRun, Tomcat/Tyrex, WLS
as extras when we get round to it.

I'm also a Jetty fan, but that's partly because it was written by a friend
of a friend who went to the same university as I did.

Regards,
Rod

----- Original Message -----
From: "Isabelle Muszynski" <isa...@me...>
To: <spr...@li...>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 8:56 AM
Subject: [Springframework-developer] database for demos


> Hi guys,
>
> A lot of activity on the mailing list overnight! A couple of thoughts :
>
> (1) The database. I'm in favor of mySQL because a lot of documentation can
be found for it and is moving more and more towards a very mature product.
It is also very widespread, for ex. all the webhosters I know are offering
it. And it's really a plus that one can find good books about it, besides
all the info on the web. Plus it comes pre-installed on linux boxes.
> (2) The application server. I think JBoss is moving away from the open
source spirit, and in addition it is quite hard to customize (datasources
etc). And you have to shell out money for the docs or buy a book. So if we
forget about the open source aspect for a minute, it seems to me we are left
with 2 options : Orion and JRun, both free for developers. It's been a while
since I've worked with Orion, but have heard good things about it. I'm using
JRun, and am quite pleased with it.
> (3) The logo. We shouldn't mix metaphors, so if we go with the spring for
the letter i, then we shouldn't use a cherry blossom or whatever for the
cartoon.
>
> Isabelle
>
> --
> Isabelle Muszynski
> Software Engineer
> Zandweellaan 4
> 2660 Antwerpen
> Belgium
> Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
> Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
> Email: isa...@me...
> Website: www.meta-logix.com
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Springframework-developer mailing list
> Spr...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer

Re: [Springframework-developer] website

[Rod J. <rod...@in...>]

The Cortex also deserve acknowledgement for giving us a Clover license. I
really like this tool. And they were very helpful indeed.

>
> We will also need a section on the website for sponsors. Right now it
looks as if MagicDraw is going to offer us free licenses, and they would
like their logo displayed on the site. I'm thinking of a section where every
sponsor can put a blurb about why they support open source, plus maybe an
unobtrusive bottom bar all through the site with logos.
>
> Isabelle
>
> --
> Isabelle Muszynski
> Software Engineer
> Zandweellaan 4
> 2660 Antwerpen
> Belgium
> Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
> Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
> Email: isa...@me...
> Website: www.meta-logix.com
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Springframework-developer mailing list
> Spr...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
>

[Springframework-developer] Logo

[Brett B. <br...@po...>]

Good work on the logo Travis.

I also like the idea of a Duke like character.  Instead of just the one
character you could have a family of characters which represent the
different aspects of the spring framework.  For example, the characters
could relate to traditional jobs like a window cleaner which represents
the mvc aspect of spring a decorator for the aop functionality, and a
wharehouse man for the persistence aspect.  I hope you get my drift. You
could also invent a character that just doesn't fit against the framework
at all, just to get people thinking :-)

I know this is ambitious but I'd just thought I throw some ideas into the
pot.  Please let me know what you think.

Cheers


Brett

[Springframework-developer] website

[Isabelle M. <isa...@me...>]

Hi Travis,

We will also need a section on the website for sponsors. Right now it looks as if MagicDraw is going to offer us free licenses, and they would like their logo displayed on the site. I'm thinking of a section where every sponsor can put a blurb about why they support open source, plus maybe an unobtrusive bottom bar all through the site with logos.

Isabelle

-- 
Isabelle Muszynski
Software Engineer
Zandweellaan 4
2660 Antwerpen
Belgium
Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
Email: isa...@me...
Website: www.meta-logix.com

[Springframework-developer] website

[Isabelle M. <isa...@me...>]

Hi guys,

Forgot one point : maven.
I think we already have a lot to worry about (i.e. work for) without adding one more ingredient to the stew. Maven looks really good, and we should use it at some point, but can we please try to get a release out without having to learn yet one more thing? 
If we talk about a standard format for docs, then I like docbook and FOP. But it means having to write xml, which isn't as easy as writing text.
Right now I'm planning to produce PDF's for the docs, it's portable and everybody has a viewer. I'll also be able to produce HTML from the docs, so that we can put an online version on the website.

Isabelle

-- 
Isabelle Muszynski
Software Engineer
Zandweellaan 4
2660 Antwerpen
Belgium
Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
Email: isa...@me...
Website: www.meta-logix.com

[Springframework-developer] database for demos

[Isabelle M. <isa...@me...>]

Hi guys,

A lot of activity on the mailing list overnight! A couple of thoughts :

(1) The database. I'm in favor of mySQL because a lot of documentation can be found for it and is moving more and more towards a very mature product. It is also very widespread, for ex. all the webhosters I know are offering it. And it's really a plus that one can find good books about it, besides all the info on the web. Plus it comes pre-installed on linux boxes.
(2) The application server. I think JBoss is moving away from the open source spirit, and in addition it is quite hard to customize (datasources etc). And you have to shell out money for the docs or buy a book. So if we forget about the open source aspect for a minute, it seems to me we are left with 2 options : Orion and JRun, both free for developers. It's been a while since I've worked with Orion, but have heard good things about it. I'm using JRun, and am quite pleased with it.
(3) The logo. We shouldn't mix metaphors, so if we go with the spring for the letter i, then we shouldn't use a cherry blossom or whatever for the cartoon.

Isabelle

-- 
Isabelle Muszynski
Software Engineer
Zandweellaan 4
2660 Antwerpen
Belgium
Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
Email: isa...@me...
Website: www.meta-logix.com

Re: [Springframework-developer] Spring Framework Logo

[Isabelle M. <isa...@me...>]

This logo is great! In the original, it was my feeling that the cartoon did not come over as very professional. I like your idea of a cartoon as "marketable face" though, a bit like the penguin and duke. An idea that came to my mind when I saw you original design was what we call the Michelin man for the Michelin tires. It's a cartoon of a man whose body is a tire. See www.michelin.com.

Isabelle

On Sat, Apr 26, 2003 at 04:25:56PM -0500, Travis Chase wrote:
> Thanks for all the comments.  I did a little rework and simplified it a bit.  I like this one a lot.  I hope you guys do as well.  Thanks, Thomas for the idea, I think it fits great.
> 
> Here is the url:
> 
> http://www.supercodepoet.com/spring/logo_text2.png
> 
> What are everyone's thoughts on the cartoon.  I was going with the idea of a Duke like character but using the standard database model icon as the base.  We do not have to havi it in the logo, but I think it might give the page and Spring a marketable face.  Just some thoughts, give me your input.
> 
> Thanks,
> Travis
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Springframework-developer mailing list
> Spr...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
> 
> 

-- 
Isabelle Muszynski
Software Engineer
Zandweellaan 4
2660 Antwerpen
Belgium
Tel. 32-(0)3-830 18 54
Mobile: 32-(0)485 49 50 89
Email: isa...@me...
Website: www.meta-logix.com