reduce-algebra-developers — Discussion of development, administration and support for Reduce

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript

[Francis W. <f.j...@li...>]

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div dir="auto"><div>I'm fairly sure that the way I build wasm REDUCE doesn't involve makeall.sh. Try just following the instructions at the top of Makefile by hand. That's what I do.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Francis<br><div dir="auto"><br><div class="elided-text">On 29 Mar 2025 9:02 pm, Michael Shulman &lt;sh...@sa...&gt; wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Thanks everyone!&nbsp; I got version 6745 from svn and installed emscripten 2.0.34.&nbsp; The main program built fine, but for-emscripten/makeall.sh complained that</div><div><br></div><div>../../cslbase/headers.h:102:10: fatal error: 'crlibm.h' file not found<br></div><div><br></div><div>I found a file called crlibm.h in cslbuild/x86_64-unknown-ubuntu22.04/include, so I tried copying that into cslbase, and makeall was then able to make some more progress.&nbsp; But now I get a couple more errors that I have no idea what to do about:</div><div><br></div><div>../../cslbase/csl.cpp:2958:9: error: void function 'cslstart' should not return a value [-Wreturn-type]<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; THROW(LispStop);<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>../../cslbase/lispthrow.h:890:35: note: expanded from macro 'THROW'<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; do { exceptionFlag = flavour; return SPID_Throw; } while(false)<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ^ &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;~~~~~~~~~~<br>../../cslbase/csl.cpp:3653:5: error: use of undeclared identifier 'initThreadLocals'<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; initThreadLocals();<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; ^<br><br></div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sat, Mar 29, 2025 at 8:22 AM Francis Wright &lt;<a href="mailto:f.j...@li...">f.j...@li...</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb( 204 , 204 , 204 );padding-left:1ex"><div>




<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
I haven't thought about Web REDUCE for a while, but I guess it's time that I did!</div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
According to &quot;/web/htdocs/web-reduce/README.md&quot;:</div>
<div style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
15 April 2024: The version currently on the REDUCE web site is the latest revision of REDUCE built using Emscripten 2.0.34,&nbsp;because I have had problems using later Emscripten versions.</div>
<div style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
And the header displayed by Web REDUCE is</div>
<pre><div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">Web REDUCE (6745), &nbsp;2-Apr-2024 ...</div></pre>
<div style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
So &quot;/csl/new-embedded/for-emscripten/Makefile&quot; should reliably build REDUCE 6745 using Emscripten 2.0.34.</div>
<div style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
If somebody with the appropriate expertise can get the latest version of REDUCE to build with the latest version of Emscripten then that would be great; please let me know how to do it!</div>
<div style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
In the meantime, I have more or less decided to stay with the build that currently works, but to update the version of REDUCE, i.e. the packages directory. I think that should work although I haven't actually done it yet.</div>
<div style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
Once you have built REDUCE, you can play around with it using Node.js or the web files in the for-emscripten directory. And, of course, you can play around with Web REDUCE.</div>
<div style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
As for &quot;known problems&quot;, I list some on the web site, but I'll try to say a bit more later when I have more time, maybe tomorrow. But a key problem is the inherent asynchronicity of JavaScript/WebAssembly.</div>
<div style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<span style="font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif">Francis</span><span style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<span style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )"><b>From:</b>&nbsp;Michael Shulman via Reduce-algebra-developers<br>
<b>Sent:</b>&nbsp;Friday, March 28, 2025 6:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b>&nbsp;Arthur Norman<br>
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;<a href="mailto:red...@li...">red...@li...</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript </span>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:11pt">Thanks, that's very helpful!&nbsp; I assumed that because the github<br>
version describes itself as a 'mirror' it would have exactly the same<br>
code in it, but apparently not: I tried the svn version and it worked<br>
just fine (for the regular version).<br>
<br>
Now I want to try to build the emscripten version.&nbsp; I am looking at<br>
the instructions at<br>
<a href="https://sourceforge.net/p/reduce-algebra/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/csl/new-embedded/for-emscripten/">https://sourceforge.net/p/reduce-algebra/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/csl/new-embedded/for-emscripten/</a><br>
that are linked from<br>
<a href="https://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.io/web-reduce/about.php?start">https://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.io/web-reduce/about.php?start</a>&nbsp;as<br>
&quot;for details of how to build this version of REDUCE&quot;.&nbsp; But whenever I<br>
run any of the 'make' commands I get errors like<br>
<br>
make: *** No rule to make target 'allocate.o', needed by 'reduce.js'.&nbsp; Stop.<br>
<br>
I know you said that isn't your corner of the project, but maybe<br>
someone else can help me with this?<br>
</div>
</div>

</div></blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

[Reduce-algebra-developers] Building Reduce with current GCC 15

[Jeff J. <tr...@po...>]

Greetings,

I'm not sure when the changes occurred, but there is some trouble using
current GCC 15 (tested with 15.0.1 20250228 / Red Hat 15.0.1-0 which is
distributed with Fedora 42 Beta and Fedora Rawhide).  This will be the
new stable GCC version released in the next month or so, so it probably
makes sense to get the fixes in now.

g++: error: unrecognized command-line option ‘-fconstexpr-steps=32000000’

The `-fconstexpr-steps` argument is not supported, and is a fatal error.
This happens when building in `csl/cslbase`.  It seems the current
incantation would be `-fconstexpr-ops-limit`.  I also was able to build
without this flag at all and didn't notice any excessive compilation
time, so it may no longer be strictly necessary.

The configure script should probably try to see if compiling using
`-fconstexpr-steps` or `-fconstexpr-ops-limit` limit actually works
before using it.

Tangentially related, trying to configure reduce to build with Clang
results in only some of the project actually building with Clang.
I configured with: `env CC=clang CXX=clang++ ./configure --with-csl
--with-clang` ... and at least `cslbase/flatten` was still being
built with g++.  I'll save the compilation output and look into this
more tonight.

--
Jeffrey H. Johnson
tr...@po...

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript

[Michael S. <sh...@sa...>]

Thanks everyone!  I got version 6745 from svn and installed emscripten
2.0.34.  The main program built fine, but for-emscripten/makeall.sh
complained that

../../cslbase/headers.h:102:10: fatal error: 'crlibm.h' file not found

I found a file called crlibm.h in
cslbuild/x86_64-unknown-ubuntu22.04/include, so I tried copying that into
cslbase, and makeall was then able to make some more progress.  But now I
get a couple more errors that I have no idea what to do about:

../../cslbase/csl.cpp:2958:9: error: void function 'cslstart' should not
return a value [-Wreturn-type]
        THROW(LispStop);
        ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
../../cslbase/lispthrow.h:890:35: note: expanded from macro 'THROW'
    do { exceptionFlag = flavour; return SPID_Throw; } while(false)
                                  ^      ~~~~~~~~~~
../../cslbase/csl.cpp:3653:5: error: use of undeclared identifier
'initThreadLocals'
    initThreadLocals();
    ^


On Sat, Mar 29, 2025 at 8:22 AM Francis Wright <f.j...@li...>
wrote:

> I haven't thought about Web REDUCE for a while, but I guess it's time that
> I did!
>
> According to "/web/htdocs/web-reduce/README.md":
> 15 April 2024: The version currently on the REDUCE web site is the latest
> revision of REDUCE built using Emscripten 2.0.34, because I have had
> problems using later Emscripten versions.
> And the header displayed by Web REDUCE is
>
> Web REDUCE (6745),  2-Apr-2024 ...
>
> So "/csl/new-embedded/for-emscripten/Makefile" should reliably build
> REDUCE 6745 using Emscripten 2.0.34.
> If somebody with the appropriate expertise can get the latest version of
> REDUCE to build with the latest version of Emscripten then that would be
> great; please let me know how to do it!
> In the meantime, I have more or less decided to stay with the build that
> currently works, but to update the version of REDUCE, i.e. the packages
> directory. I think that should work although I haven't actually done it yet.
> Once you have built REDUCE, you can play around with it using Node.js or
> the web files in the for-emscripten directory. And, of course, you can play
> around with Web REDUCE.
> As for "known problems", I list some on the web site, but I'll try to say
> a bit more later when I have more time, maybe tomorrow. But a key problem
> is the inherent asynchronicity of JavaScript/WebAssembly.
> Francis
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Michael Shulman via Reduce-algebra-developers
> *Sent:* Friday, March 28, 2025 6:28 PM
> *To:* Arthur Norman
> *Cc:* red...@li...
> *Subject:* Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript
>
> Thanks, that's very helpful!  I assumed that because the github
> version describes itself as a 'mirror' it would have exactly the same
> code in it, but apparently not: I tried the svn version and it worked
> just fine (for the regular version).
>
> Now I want to try to build the emscripten version.  I am looking at
> the instructions at
>
> https://sourceforge.net/p/reduce-algebra/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/csl/new-embedded/for-emscripten/
> that are linked from
> https://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.io/web-reduce/about.php?start as
> "for details of how to build this version of REDUCE".  But whenever I
> run any of the 'make' commands I get errors like
>
> make: *** No rule to make target 'allocate.o', needed by 'reduce.js'.
> Stop.
>
> I know you said that isn't your corner of the project, but maybe
> someone else can help me with this?
>

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript

[Jeff J. <tr...@po...>]

Hi there,

I run the script that keeps the mirror updated.  I'm sorry that it
was causing an issue.

The problem was that the Subversion software itself is responsible
for expanding and rewriting the $Id$ keyword in the file - the
actual files themselves just contain '$Id'.

I've updated the mirroring script to expand the $Id$ where needed,
so this shouldn't be a problem going forward.

Normally the mirror updates against the upstream SVN repository once
a day, but I gave it a manual kick so you should see the fix now.

--
Jeffrey H. Johnson
tr...@po...

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript

[Francis W. <f.j...@li...>]

I haven't thought about Web REDUCE for a while, but I guess it's time that I did!

According to "/web/htdocs/web-reduce/README.md":
15 April 2024: The version currently on the REDUCE web site is the latest revision of REDUCE built using Emscripten 2.0.34, because I have had problems using later Emscripten versions.
And the header displayed by Web REDUCE is

Web REDUCE (6745),  2-Apr-2024 ...

So "/csl/new-embedded/for-emscripten/Makefile" should reliably build REDUCE 6745 using Emscripten 2.0.34.
If somebody with the appropriate expertise can get the latest version of REDUCE to build with the latest version of Emscripten then that would be great; please let me know how to do it!
In the meantime, I have more or less decided to stay with the build that currently works, but to update the version of REDUCE, i.e. the packages directory. I think that should work although I haven't actually done it yet.
Once you have built REDUCE, you can play around with it using Node.js or the web files in the for-emscripten directory. And, of course, you can play around with Web REDUCE.
As for "known problems", I list some on the web site, but I'll try to say a bit more later when I have more time, maybe tomorrow. But a key problem is the inherent asynchronicity of JavaScript/WebAssembly.
Francis
________________________________
From: Michael Shulman via Reduce-algebra-developers
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2025 6:28 PM
To: Arthur Norman
Cc: red...@li...
Subject: Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript

Thanks, that's very helpful!  I assumed that because the github
version describes itself as a 'mirror' it would have exactly the same
code in it, but apparently not: I tried the svn version and it worked
just fine (for the regular version).

Now I want to try to build the emscripten version.  I am looking at
the instructions at
https://sourceforge.net/p/reduce-algebra/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/csl/new-embedded/for-emscripten/
that are linked from
https://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.io/web-reduce/about.php?start as
"for details of how to build this version of REDUCE".  But whenever I
run any of the 'make' commands I get errors like

make: *** No rule to make target 'allocate.o', needed by 'reduce.js'.  Stop.

I know you said that isn't your corner of the project, but maybe
someone else can help me with this?

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript

[Arthur N. <ac...@ca...>]

Another thought if the build files etc in the csl/new-embedded directory 
are not in step with the current main version of the trunk is that you 
can easily go
    svn -r NNN update
on the whole tree to go backwards in time until you find a version that 
works for you. If I browse the sources on sourceforge I find that for
revision 6789 a checkin has the message "Web REDUCE Makefile" so around 
then might be a good place to start.
For experiments at the stage you are at thus far working with a version 
that does not include the last year of various updates would not be a huge 
issue.... and if you make good enough progress with that to feel that the 
project as a whole is going to work then (a) it will provide us with a 
strong incentive to bring that area up to date (b) the delay will mean 
that maybe some of us will be under less pressure from other directions 
and (c) you will have built up your Reduce skills and experience!

I do not guarantee that revision 6788 or 6789 is a good one! In cases like 
this I go sort of way back and then do a binary chop on revision numbers 
to find where key changes were made - and then I can often see just what 
they were and allow for them. That tends to be a bit tedious and I ususlly
make a script that goes basically
    svn -r $1 update
    [sometimes I need to tidy up or delete built files here]
    [sometimes I need to re-run a "configure" script]
    make
and have a picxe of paper where I keep score for how various revisions 
behave...

Good luck. Arthur

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript

[Michael S. <sh...@sa...>]

I submitted an issue
<https://github.com/reduce-algebra/reduce-algebra/issues/85> on the github
mirror.

Thanks for the suggestions about updating the makefile.  Changing the
references to allocate.o and cslgc.o does let it get further.  I added
gc-check.o too, although it didn't seem to have any noticeable effect yet.

Now it gets stuck on bytes1.o saying it has no rule to make
../../cslbase/opnames.cpp.  The only file I found with a similar name is
../../embedded/opnames.c, so I tried replacing the reference with that;
that silenced that particular complaint but I don't know if it might cause
problems later.

Next the compilation of ../../cslbase/u01.cpp fails with a bunch of errors
saying "unknown type name 'Save'" and "no matching function for call to
'reclaim'" (it needs 4 arguments).  I grepped through the sources and found
a definition of a 4-argument "reclaim" in csl/embedded/gc.c, which sounds
plausible, but I'm not a C/C++ programmer and I can't guess how to bring
this into scope when compiling the uxx files.  If I just add "gc.o" to the
"main_o_files", as I did with the others, it complains that it has no rule
to make it; and I don't see any references to gc.o or gc.c in the root
Makefile.am.



On Fri, Mar 28, 2025 at 3:35 PM Arthur Norman <ac...@ca...> wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Mar 2025, Michael Shulman wrote:
>
> > Thanks, that's very helpful!  I assumed that because the github
> > version describes itself as a 'mirror' it would have exactly the same
> > code in it, but apparently not: I tried the svn version and it worked
> > just fine (for the regular version).
> >
> It may well copy across to github nicely but the subversion repository may
> get updated several times in a day so keeping quite up with it may be a
> chalklenge. Most of the time that should not matter and I know that some
> people really prefer git over subversion. However if I look there right
> now if has unexpanded "$Id:$ stuff there which as you found out so I guess
> that the mirroring process "tidies that up" with in this particular case
> bad consequences. I know that git is not keen on simple sequential
> revision numbers but maybe you can contact the maintainer of the git
> mirror and see if they can get those preserved as they make thei copies?
>
>
>
> > Now I want to try to build the emscripten version.  I am looking at
> > the instructions at
> >
> https://sourceforge.net/p/reduce-algebra/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/csl/new-embedded/for-emscripten/
> > that are linked from
> > https://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.io/web-reduce/about.php?start as
> > "for details of how to build this version of REDUCE".  But whenever I
> > run any of the 'make' commands I get errors like
> >
> > make: *** No rule to make target 'allocate.o', needed by 'reduce.js'.
> Stop.
> >
> > I know you said that isn't your corner of the project, but maybe
> > someone else can help me with this?
> >
> As with various of the sections beyond the ones that do simple builds for
> Windows, Linux and Mac the Makefiles there are not routinely checked and
> updated even when there are serious changes elsewhere - the sort-of stance
> is that what is being provided is a starting point for a programmer who is
> going to develop on top of it and who hence is liable to be capable of
> discerning what has to be done - and where IDEALLY they will then propose
> fixes and we register them as additional people able to maintain stuff -
> with them taking a particular interest in that section of the code because
> they are using it!  I think that here you will find that a while back
> "allocate.cpp" was superceded by "newallocate.cpp"! and similarly
> newcslgc.cpp took over from cslgc.cpp (and possibly gc-check.cpp was
> added). There was a fairly extended time when both versions were present
> and a "./configure"-time option could enable the newer version while it
> was being tested a bit.
> So I suggest you compare the list of sources in csl/cslbase/Makefile.am
> with the ones in the new-embedded directory and that will reveal some
> fairly simple updates.
>
> I am a bit in the middle of other things and really do not want to break
> my trains of thought by investigating that this weekend. But if the
> scripts to make webreduce are somewhere they may also have this sorted
> out...
>
> Arthur
>
>

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript

[Arthur N. <ac...@ca...>]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2025, Michael Shulman wrote:

> Thanks, that's very helpful!  I assumed that because the github
> version describes itself as a 'mirror' it would have exactly the same
> code in it, but apparently not: I tried the svn version and it worked
> just fine (for the regular version).
>
It may well copy across to github nicely but the subversion repository may 
get updated several times in a day so keeping quite up with it may be a 
chalklenge. Most of the time that should not matter and I know that some 
people really prefer git over subversion. However if I look there right 
now if has unexpanded "$Id:$ stuff there which as you found out so I guess 
that the mirroring process "tidies that up" with in this particular case 
bad consequences. I know that git is not keen on simple sequential 
revision numbers but maybe you can contact the maintainer of the git 
mirror and see if they can get those preserved as they make thei copies?



> Now I want to try to build the emscripten version.  I am looking at
> the instructions at
> https://sourceforge.net/p/reduce-algebra/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/csl/new-embedded/for-emscripten/
> that are linked from
> https://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.io/web-reduce/about.php?start as
> "for details of how to build this version of REDUCE".  But whenever I
> run any of the 'make' commands I get errors like
>
> make: *** No rule to make target 'allocate.o', needed by 'reduce.js'.  Stop.
>
> I know you said that isn't your corner of the project, but maybe
> someone else can help me with this?
>
As with various of the sections beyond the ones that do simple builds for 
Windows, Linux and Mac the Makefiles there are not routinely checked and 
updated even when there are serious changes elsewhere - the sort-of stance 
is that what is being provided is a starting point for a programmer who is 
going to develop on top of it and who hence is liable to be capable of
discerning what has to be done - and where IDEALLY they will then propose 
fixes and we register them as additional people able to maintain stuff - 
with them taking a particular interest in that section of the code because 
they are using it!  I think that here you will find that a while back 
"allocate.cpp" was superceded by "newallocate.cpp"! and similarly 
newcslgc.cpp took over from cslgc.cpp (and possibly gc-check.cpp was 
added). There was a fairly extended time when both versions were present
and a "./configure"-time option could enable the newer version while it 
was being tested a bit.
So I suggest you compare the list of sources in csl/cslbase/Makefile.am 
with the ones in the new-embedded directory and that will reveal some 
fairly simple updates.

I am a bit in the middle of other things and really do not want to break 
my trains of thought by investigating that this weekend. But if the 
scripts to make webreduce are somewhere they may also have this sorted 
out...

Arthur

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript

[Michael S. <sh...@sa...>]

Thanks, that's very helpful!  I assumed that because the github
version describes itself as a 'mirror' it would have exactly the same
code in it, but apparently not: I tried the svn version and it worked
just fine (for the regular version).

Now I want to try to build the emscripten version.  I am looking at
the instructions at
https://sourceforge.net/p/reduce-algebra/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/csl/new-embedded/for-emscripten/
that are linked from
https://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.io/web-reduce/about.php?start as
"for details of how to build this version of REDUCE".  But whenever I
run any of the 'make' commands I get errors like

make: *** No rule to make target 'allocate.o', needed by 'reduce.js'.  Stop.

I know you said that isn't your corner of the project, but maybe
someone else can help me with this?

On Fri, Mar 28, 2025 at 9:47 AM Arthur Norman <ac...@ca...> wrote:
>
> OK you raise two issues. The first is javascript.
>
> Quite a few years ago there was a demo build using javascript and stuck in
> a directory "jslisp". Note that the README file there dates it to 2011 and
> has a comment: "While the code is stabilising here there really are NO
> guarantees that it will all even build!". So that is only potentially
> useful for individuals willing to dive deep into it and resolve problems
> mostly for themselves. And since that starts with stuff fetched from
> mathpiper around 14 years ago and I have no ideal at all where mathpiper
> has got to in the meanwhile, anybody wanting to build on that needs to
> check there as well as with Reduce people.
> More recently a spin of Reduce has been built using "emscripten" which
> turns the C++ code of the CSL kernel for Reduce into webassembly stuff
> that is expected to hook onto javascript and the web version of Reduce
> uses that. The source directory relevant is csl/new-embedded but mosly you
> need to look at
> https://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.io/web-reduce/about.php?start
> and I do not know how to rebuild it since that is not my corner of the
> whole project - Francis Wright is the guru there. But trying that out may
> give you an idea of whether things would behave and do what you need.
>
> Re building a regular version, I note that the main place where Reduce
> sources live is https://sourceforge.net/projects/reduce-algebra/ and I do
> not know how any github mirror is maintained or whether files from there
> will always be complete or up to date. I hope they are but againb because
> there are things that are "my business" and others that are not I do not
> even know who set up a github mirror. So I can not provide support for
> anything fetched from there rathar than using
> svn checkout https://svn.code.sf.net/p/reduce-algebra/code/trunk reduce-algebra
>
> I have just now been configuring and building everything on an Ubuntu
> Linux based on a sources synchronised with sourceforge and I do not
> observe the odd diagnostic that you see.... but the complaint you see
> suggests that in version.h the symbol VERSION_ID has not got set properly.
> The value that gets is derived from the way that subversion updates an
> "$Id:" record when one makes a checkin so as to record the revision
> number, date and the identity of the person making the checkin, so you may
> like to look at your version of csl/cslbase/version.h to see if it looks
> good. For MINE I see
> #define VERSION_ID "$Id: version.h 7055 2025-03-25 21:40:11Z arthurcnorman $"
>
>
> Apologies if this does not instantly resolve all your issues, but I hope
> it helps you in the right direction!
>
> Arthur
>
>
>
> On Fri, 28 Mar 2025, Michael Shulman via Reduce-algebra-developers wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > My goal is to use the javascript version of reduce in a web
> > application; so if there are known problems with that at the moment,
> > please let me know.  However, at the moment I think I'm stuck on even
> > just compiling the base system, before converting it to JS.  I have
> > cloned the github mirror from
> > https://github.com/reduce-algebra/reduce-algebra and run the commands
> >
> > scripts/ubuntu-sanity-check.sh
> > ./configure --with-csl
> > scripts/csl-sanity-check.sh
> > make
> >
> > and I get the error message
> >
> > In file included from /home/shulman/reduce-algebra/csl/cslbase/fns1.cpp:40:
> > /home/shulman/reduce-algebra/csl/cslbase/version.h:60:6:   in
> > ‘constexpr’ expansion of ‘<lambda closure
> > object><lambda()>{}.<lambda()>()’
> > /home/shulman/reduce-algebra/csl/cslbase/version.h:60:7: error: array
> > subscript value ‘5’ is outside the bounds of array type ‘const char
> > [5]’
> >   60 |     }();
> >      |       ^
> >
> > This is a weird message and doesn't suggest a solution like installing
> > some missing library.  Do I have the wrong version of some compiler or
> > library perhaps?
> >
> > Thanks for any help,
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Reduce-algebra-developers mailing list
> > Red...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/reduce-algebra-developers

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript

[Arthur N. <ac...@ca...>]

OK you raise two issues. The first is javascript.

Quite a few years ago there was a demo build using javascript and stuck in
a directory "jslisp". Note that the README file there dates it to 2011 and
has a comment: "While the code is stabilising here there really are NO 
guarantees that it will all even build!". So that is only potentially 
useful for individuals willing to dive deep into it and resolve problems 
mostly for themselves. And since that starts with stuff fetched from 
mathpiper around 14 years ago and I have no ideal at all where mathpiper 
has got to in the meanwhile, anybody wanting to build on that needs to 
check there as well as with Reduce people.
More recently a spin of Reduce has been built using "emscripten" which 
turns the C++ code of the CSL kernel for Reduce into webassembly stuff 
that is expected to hook onto javascript and the web version of Reduce 
uses that. The source directory relevant is csl/new-embedded but mosly you 
need to look at
https://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.io/web-reduce/about.php?start
and I do not know how to rebuild it since that is not my corner of the 
whole project - Francis Wright is the guru there. But trying that out may 
give you an idea of whether things would behave and do what you need.

Re building a regular version, I note that the main place where Reduce 
sources live is https://sourceforge.net/projects/reduce-algebra/ and I do 
not know how any github mirror is maintained or whether files from there 
will always be complete or up to date. I hope they are but againb because 
there are things that are "my business" and others that are not I do not 
even know who set up a github mirror. So I can not provide support for 
anything fetched from there rathar than using
svn checkout https://svn.code.sf.net/p/reduce-algebra/code/trunk reduce-algebra

I have just now been configuring and building everything on an Ubuntu 
Linux based on a sources synchronised with sourceforge and I do not 
observe the odd diagnostic that you see.... but the complaint you see 
suggests that in version.h the symbol VERSION_ID has not got set properly. 
The value that gets is derived from the way that subversion updates an 
"$Id:" record when one makes a checkin so as to record the revision 
number, date and the identity of the person making the checkin, so you may 
like to look at your version of csl/cslbase/version.h to see if it looks 
good. For MINE I see
#define VERSION_ID "$Id: version.h 7055 2025-03-25 21:40:11Z arthurcnorman $"


Apologies if this does not instantly resolve all your issues, but I hope 
it helps you in the right direction!

Arthur



On Fri, 28 Mar 2025, Michael Shulman via Reduce-algebra-developers wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My goal is to use the javascript version of reduce in a web
> application; so if there are known problems with that at the moment,
> please let me know.  However, at the moment I think I'm stuck on even
> just compiling the base system, before converting it to JS.  I have
> cloned the github mirror from
> https://github.com/reduce-algebra/reduce-algebra and run the commands
>
> scripts/ubuntu-sanity-check.sh
> ./configure --with-csl
> scripts/csl-sanity-check.sh
> make
>
> and I get the error message
>
> In file included from /home/shulman/reduce-algebra/csl/cslbase/fns1.cpp:40:
> /home/shulman/reduce-algebra/csl/cslbase/version.h:60:6:   in
> ‘constexpr’ expansion of ‘<lambda closure
> object><lambda()>{}.<lambda()>()’
> /home/shulman/reduce-algebra/csl/cslbase/version.h:60:7: error: array
> subscript value ‘5’ is outside the bounds of array type ‘const char
> [5]’
>   60 |     }();
>      |       ^
>
> This is a weird message and doesn't suggest a solution like installing
> some missing library.  Do I have the wrong version of some compiler or
> library perhaps?
>
> Thanks for any help,
> Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Reduce-algebra-developers mailing list
> Red...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/reduce-algebra-developers

[Reduce-algebra-developers] compiling, for javascript

[Michael S. <sh...@sa...>]

Hi,

My goal is to use the javascript version of reduce in a web
application; so if there are known problems with that at the moment,
please let me know.  However, at the moment I think I'm stuck on even
just compiling the base system, before converting it to JS.  I have
cloned the github mirror from
https://github.com/reduce-algebra/reduce-algebra and run the commands

scripts/ubuntu-sanity-check.sh
./configure --with-csl
scripts/csl-sanity-check.sh
make

and I get the error message

In file included from /home/shulman/reduce-algebra/csl/cslbase/fns1.cpp:40:
/home/shulman/reduce-algebra/csl/cslbase/version.h:60:6:   in
‘constexpr’ expansion of ‘<lambda closure
object><lambda()>{}.<lambda()>()’
/home/shulman/reduce-algebra/csl/cslbase/version.h:60:7: error: array
subscript value ‘5’ is outside the bounds of array type ‘const char
[5]’
   60 |     }();
      |       ^

This is a weird message and doesn't suggest a solution like installing
some missing library.  Do I have the wrong version of some compiler or
library perhaps?

Thanks for any help,
Mike

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] Updating gnuplot

[Eberhard S. <esc...@ca...>]

That's fine with me.

Eberhard

On 23.03.25 10:23, Rainer Schöpf via Reduce-algebra-developers wrote:
> We are distributing gnuplot 4.6.0 (released 2012) as part of the Windows
> snapshot. I believe we should upgrade to release 5.4(.10). The 
> examples run OK;
> I don't see anything critical in the in the manual section listing
> the differences between versions 4 and 5.
>
> Objections, anyone?
>
>    Rainer
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Reduce-algebra-developers mailing list
> Red...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/reduce-algebra-developers

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] Updating gnuplot

[Francis W. <f.j...@li...>]

I think upgrading is a good idea. For what its worth, Web REDUCE has been using gnuplot 5.4.10 for a while. I've also been running gnuplot 5.4.2 in Ubuntu 22 on WSL and not noticed any problems. It would be good to have the same version (more or less) across all platforms.

Francis

________________________________
From: Rainer Schöpf via Reduce-algebra-developers
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2025 9:23 AM
To: red...@li...
Subject: [Reduce-algebra-developers] Updating gnuplot

We are distributing gnuplot 4.6.0 (released 2012) as part of the Windows
snapshot. I believe we should upgrade to release 5.4(.10). The examples run OK;
I don't see anything critical in the in the manual section listing
the differences between versions 4 and 5.

Objections, anyone?

    Rainer


_______________________________________________
Reduce-algebra-developers mailing list
Red...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/reduce-algebra-developers

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] Updating gnuplot

[Arthur N. <ac...@ca...>]

No objections.

On Sun, 23 Mar 2025, Rainer Schöpf via Reduce-algebra-developers wrote:

> We are distributing gnuplot 4.6.0 (released 2012) as part of the Windows
> snapshot. I believe we should upgrade to release 5.4(.10). The examples run 
> OK;
> I don't see anything critical in the in the manual section listing
> the differences between versions 4 and 5.
>
> Objections, anyone?
>
>   Rainer
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Reduce-algebra-developers mailing list
> Red...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/reduce-algebra-developers
>

[Reduce-algebra-developers] Updating gnuplot

[Rainer S. <rai...@gm...>]

We are distributing gnuplot 4.6.0 (released 2012) as part of the Windows
snapshot. I believe we should upgrade to release 5.4(.10). The examples run OK;
I don't see anything critical in the in the manual section listing
the differences between versions 4 and 5.

Objections, anyone?

    Rainer

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] Wrong abs of inverse powers

[Rainer S. <rai...@gm...>]

Thanks for reporting this error. It wasn't noticed for at least five years.

I committed a correction to the sources.

 Best regards, Rainer


On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 at 08:18 +0500, Andrey Ignatenko via Reduce-algebra-dev...:

 > Hello,
 >
 > Reduce (CSL, rev 6860), 11-Aug-2024 ...
 >
 >
 > 1: abs(1/x);
 >
 >  1
 > ---
 >  x
 >
 > 2: abs(x^(-y));
 >
 >  1
 > ----
 >   y
 >  x
 >
 > But
 >
 > 3: abs(x^y);
 >
 >      y
 > abs(x )
 >
 > 'on precise_complex' does not change anything.
 >
 >
 > Best regards,
 > Andrey
 >
 >
 > _______________________________________________
 > Reduce-algebra-developers mailing list
 > Red...@li...
 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/reduce-algebra-developers
 >

   Rainer Schöpf

[Reduce-algebra-developers] Wrong abs of inverse powers

[Andrey I. <and...@ma...>]

Hello,

Reduce (CSL, rev 6860), 11-Aug-2024 ...


1: abs(1/x);

  1
---
  x

2: abs(x^(-y));

  1
----
   y
  x

But

3: abs(x^y);

      y
abs(x )

'on precise_complex' does not change anything.


Best regards,
Andrey

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] taylor and sqrt of full squares

[Andrey I. <and...@ma...>]

Rainer Schöpf wrote:
> I have just committed a correction for this problem.
> 
> Thnaks for reporting it.
> 
>   Best regards,
>     Rainer

Thanks a lot for creating the fix in such a short time! I have applied
your commit on top of rev. 6860 (the last snapshot), which went off without a hitch.
It works and now I can proceed with solving my problems.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] taylor and sqrt of full squares

[Rainer S. <rai...@gm...>]

I have just committed a correction for this problem.

Thnaks for reporting it.

 Best regards,
   Rainer


On Mon, 17 Mar 2025 at 08:48 +0500, Andrey Ignatenko wrote:

 > Hello,
 >
 > It appears that square root of full square of an expression
 > under the taylor operator is replaced by the expression and
 > not its absolute value as it should,
 >
 > 1: taylor(sqrt((x-y)^2), s, 0, 1);
 >            2
 > x - y + O(s )
 >
 > Is it a bug or a feature?
 >
 > In deciding which sign of the expression to choose taylor seems
 > to rely on internal order of kernels
 >
 > 2: korder y, x;
 > 3: taylor(sqrt((x-y)^2), s, 0, 1);
 >               2
 >  - x + y + O(s )
 >
 > But what should I do in the following case if I have (1-z)>0,
 >
 > 4: taylor(sqrt((1-z)^2), s, 0, 1);
 >            2
 > z - 1 + O(s )
 >
 > Is it possible to tell Reduce to put a kernel z after a
 > literal constants 1? Is there a workaround?
 >
 > Thanks in advance.
 >
 > Best regards,
 > Andrey

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] taylor and sqrt of full squares

[Andrey I. <and...@ma...>]

P.S.

Andrey Ignatenko via Reduce-algebra-developers wrote:
> Strangely, however, it fails in a more realistic example
> 
> 4: taylor(sqrt((1-z)*(1-s*z)), s, 1, 0);
> 
> z - 1 + O(s - 1)

Command 4 works if the flag 'exp' is set to 'on' together
with 'precise_complex'.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] taylor and sqrt of full squares

[Andrey I. <and...@ma...>]

Alan Barnes wrote:
> I note that using alternative power-series package tps, one gets:
> 
> 1: ps(sqrt((x-y)^2), z,0);
> 
> |x - y|
> 
> which is an improvement, but of course this is only correct if x-y is real. However, after
> 
> on precise_complex;
> 
> both power-series packages produce (sqrt(x^2-2x*y+y^2) as the first term which is correct, but somewhat messy if x-y is real .

I find that

1: on precise_complex;

sometimes works

2: taylor(sqrt((1-z)^2), s, 0, 1);
             2       2
sqrt((z - 1) ) + O(s )

and provide a desired workaround

3: taylor(sqrt((1-z)^2), s, 0, 1) where {sqrt((1-z)^2)=>1-z};
               2
  - z + 1 + O(s )

Strangely, however, it fails in a more realistic example

4: taylor(sqrt((1-z)*(1-s*z)), s, 1, 0);

z - 1 + O(s - 1)

ps, nevertheless, continues to work

5: pstruncate(ps(sqrt((1-z)*(1-s*z)), s, 1), 0) where {sqrt((1-z)^2)=>1-z};

  - z + 1

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] taylor and sqrt of full squares

[Alan B. <ala...@gm...>]

I note that using alternative power-series package tps, one gets:

1: ps(sqrt((x-y)^2), z,0);

|x - y|

which is an improvement, but of course this is only correct if x-y is 
real. However, after

on precise_complex;

both power-series packages produce (sqrt(x^2-2x*y+y^2) as the first term 
which is correct, but somewhat messy if x-y is real .

I think main problem lies with the simplication of sqrt((x-y)^2) not 
with the power series packages themselves, although at first sight the 
differnce in the behaviours of ps and taylor is somewhat puzzling.

Note by default

sqrt((x-y)^2);

produces |x - y| but with precise_complex ON one gets (sqrt(x^2-2x*y+y^2).

One might think that the declaration realvalued x,y; should cure the 
problem, but with precise_complex ON one still gets (sqrt(x^2-2x*y+y^2).

Regards Alan

On 17/03/2025 03:48, Andrey Ignatenko via Reduce-algebra-developers wrote:
> Hello,
>
> It appears that square root of full square of an expression
> under the taylor operator is replaced by the expression and
> not its absolute value as it should,
>
> 1: taylor(sqrt((x-y)^2), s, 0, 1);
>            2
> x - y + O(s )
>
> Is it a bug or a feature?
>
> In deciding which sign of the expression to choose taylor seems
> to rely on internal order of kernels
>
> 2: korder y, x;
> 3: taylor(sqrt((x-y)^2), s, 0, 1);
>               2
>  - x + y + O(s )
>
> But what should I do in the following case if I have (1-z)>0,
>
> 4: taylor(sqrt((1-z)^2), s, 0, 1);
>            2
> z - 1 + O(s )
>
> Is it possible to tell Reduce to put a kernel z after a
> literal constants 1? Is there a workaround?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Best regards,
> Andrey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Reduce-algebra-developers mailing list
> Red...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/reduce-algebra-developers

[Reduce-algebra-developers] taylor and sqrt of full squares

[Andrey I. <and...@ma...>]

Hello,

It appears that square root of full square of an expression
under the taylor operator is replaced by the expression and
not its absolute value as it should,

1: taylor(sqrt((x-y)^2), s, 0, 1);
            2
x - y + O(s )

Is it a bug or a feature?

In deciding which sign of the expression to choose taylor seems
to rely on internal order of kernels

2: korder y, x;
3: taylor(sqrt((x-y)^2), s, 0, 1);
               2
  - x + y + O(s )

But what should I do in the following case if I have (1-z)>0,

4: taylor(sqrt((1-z)^2), s, 0, 1);
            2
z - 1 + O(s )

Is it possible to tell Reduce to put a kernel z after a
literal constants 1? Is there a workaround?

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Reduce-algebra-developers] New release of REDUCE IDE for GNU Emacs

[Francis W. <f.j...@li...>]

REDUCE IDE version 1.13 is now available<https://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.io/reduce-ide/>.


  *   Requires Emacs 29

  *
Better support for multiple REDUCE installations
  *
Support for 'on demo'
  *
Motion by identifier
  *
Quickly select a block or group


Please see the end of the README file<https://sourceforge.net/p/reduce-algebra/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/generic/emacs/README.md> for details.


Francis

Re: [Reduce-algebra-developers] New paper on history of Reduce and Feynman diagram evaluation

[Francis W. <f.j...@li...>]

Thanks. I've added that to the online bibliography (at https://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.io/bibliography.php). This probably should be linked to the bibl.bib file in the REDUCE source tree, but it isn't.

I have also removed all the "citation keys" of the form [Abbott:87a]. For now, I have just commented them out. If anyone thinks they were useful then please let me know. Otherwise, I will probably delete them completely at some future date.

Francis

________________________________
From: Nelson H. F. Beebe <be...@ma...>
Sent: 26 April 2024 11:02 PM
To: reduce-algebra-developers <red...@li...>
Cc: be...@ma... <be...@ma...>
Subject: [Reduce-algebra-developers] New paper on history of Reduce and Feynman diagram evaluation

The latest issue of a science history journal has an article that may
be of interest to some list readers:

@String{j-EUR-PHYS-J-H          = "European Physical Journal H"}

@Article{Harlander:2024:DCM,
  author =       "Robert V. Harlander and Jean-Philippe Martinez",
  title =        "The development of computational methods for {Feynman}
                 diagrams",
  journal =      j-EUR-PHYS-J-H,
  volume =       "49",
  number =       "1",
  pages =        "4:1--4:45",
  month =        dec,
  year =         "2024",
  CODEN =        "EPJHAD",
  DOI =          "https://doi.org/10.1140/epjh/s13129-024-00067-6",
  ISSN =         "2102-6459 (print), 2102-6467 (electronic)",
  ISSN-L =       "2102-6459",
  bibdate =      "Wed Apr 24 08:56:59 MDT 2024",
  bibsource =    "https://www.math.utah.edu/pub/bibnet/authors/f/feynman-richard-p.bib;
                 https://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/eur-phys-j-h.bib;
                 http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/redextra.bib",
  URL =          "https://link.springer.com/article/10.1140/epjh/s13129-024-00067-6",
  acknowledgement = ack-nhfb,
  ajournal =     "Eur. Phys. J. H",
  articleno =    "4",
  fjournal =     "The European Physical Journal H",
  journal-URL =  "http://www.springer.com/journal/13129",
}

The paper discusses the early history of Reduce and some other algebra
systems that were developed to help solve complicated problems in
computational physics.  The article has more than 40 mentions of
Reduce, and 48 of its architect, Tony Hearn.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                                                          -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: be...@ma...  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       be...@ac...  be...@co... -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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