pidgin-i18n Mailing List for Pidgin IM (Page 11)

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This might be a really stupid question, but how does this change affect a
stupid translater such as myself? Can I no longer submit .po files? What
formats do I need to use now?

-=3D Shalom

Richard Laager <rl...@wi...> wrote:

> On a related note... What charset does gettext() return strings in? The
> man page says :
>
> RETURN VALUE
>       If a translation was found in one of the specified catalogs, it
> is converted to the locale=FF=FFs codeset and returned.

Yes, gettext always returns UTF-8 within Gaim. There is the following
line

 =09bind_textdomain_codeset(PACKAGE, "UTF-8");

in src/gtkmain.c. bind_textdomain_codeset() specifies the output codeset
for gettext.

> I ask because we shouldn't be passing UTF-8 to strftime(). So, if
> gettext() returns UTF-8 in non-UTF-8 locales, then I need to convert it
> in gaim_utf8_strftime(). However, if gettext() does behave as the man
> page suggests, doesn't that cause problems with GTK+?

Why not? If I understood Ambrose Li right, he needs some special UTF-8
chars in Chinese date/time strings.

I tested strftime() with UTF-8 chars in date/time format strings with
Linux (SuSE Linux 10.x) and Solaris 5.9. I believe, that other systems
also can pass UTF-8 into strftime(). I attached a small test file for
this.

I also do not see a solution in converting the UTF-8 date/time string
before passing into strftime(). Since the UTF-8 chars are needed (for
instance in Chinese), you had to convert the charset twice:
1) UTF-8 (gettext-output) to ASCII (strftime-input)
2) ASCII to UTF-8 (strftime-out) to GTK+

Greetings, Bj=F6rn
Richard Laager spake unto us the following wisdom:
> I ask because we shouldn't be passing UTF-8 to strftime(). So, if
> gettext() returns UTF-8 in non-UTF-8 locales, then I need to convert it
> in gaim_utf8_strftime(). However, if gettext() does behave as the man
> page suggests, doesn't that cause problems with GTK+?

There is no reason not to pass UTF-8 to strftime.  In UTF-8, % and all
of the specifier letters have the same codepoint as ASCII.

Gettext returns locale-specific strings, which is why the character
set of the translation strings must be specified in the .pofile -- it
has to know.  I am not sure how Gtk+ handles this; perhaps it assumes
that the incoming strings are in the locale charset if they don't
validate as UTF-8?  I know that Gtk+ _does_ work in non-UTF-8 locales
with non-ASCII characters, so...

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764

Sorry for the bad threading...

I marked "%x %X" and "%B %Y" as translatable "Just In Case" it was
necessary for some language to have those in a different order or with
other stuff around them... From the discussion here, it seems like that
was a good idea.

I did not mark %x, %X, or %c by themselves, as those should be handled
properly by the C library. If they're not, I'd say it should be fixed
there. However, I've created the various gaim_{date,time} functions with
the intention that signals could be added to them, similar to what we do
with the message/logging timestamps. Then, plugins could override the
handling of the date formatting. I'd like to see us honor the GNOME and
KDE settings when running under one of those environments, for example.

On a related note... What charset does gettext() return strings in? The
man page says :

RETURN VALUE
       If a translation was found in one of the specified catalogs, it
is converted to the locale=E2=80=99s codeset and returned.

However, we use _("Some string") in all sorts of places (e.g. GTK+
functions) that expect UTF-8.

I ask because we shouldn't be passing UTF-8 to strftime(). So, if
gettext() returns UTF-8 in non-UTF-8 locales, then I need to convert it
in gaim_utf8_strftime(). However, if gettext() does behave as the man
page suggests, doesn't that cause problems with GTK+?

Richard

Hi Bjoern,

=D0=94=D0=B0=D0=BD=D0=B0=D1=81 =D1=83 18:53, Bjoern Voigt =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=
=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0:

> 3) Is it possible to use intltool for the Windows NSIS translations in
>     src/win32/nsis/translations? Updating the Windows NSIS translations
>     is still a manual job.

If NSIS format is one of those supported in "intltool-extract --help"
under "--type" parameter, then yes.=20

If not, we'd be probably accepting patches for it (it should be pretty
simple, just patch intltool-merge and intltool-extract ;).  Bugzilla
(http://bugzilla.gnome.org/, product intltool) is the best place to
ask for any similar functionality.

Cheers,
Danilo

On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 18:53 +0100, Bjoern Voigt wrote:
> Hello!

Wow, this is essentially the exact e-mail I was intending to send soon,
I just hadn't written it yet! Thanks. :)

> I miss the functionality of ./update.pl which shows files in
> po/POTFILES.in which do _NOT_ have i18n strings. But this is not a big
> issue for me.

You *might* (untested) be able to duplicate this by doing something
like:

mv POTFILES.in POTFILES.tmp
touch POIFILES.in
intltool-update -m
mv POTFILES.tmp POTFILES.in
diff missing POTFILES.in

> 3) Is it possible to use intltool for the Windows NSIS translations in
>     src/win32/nsis/translations? Updating the Windows NSIS translations
>     is still a manual job.

I've been meaning to ask Daniel about this...

Richard

Hello!

Richard Laager has commited a patch which adds intltool integration to
Gaim:

   ----------------------------
   revision 1.375
   date: 2006/02/08 07:44:22;  author: rlaager;  state: Exp;  lines: +4 -3
   SF Patch #1265514

   This patch adds intltool integration. It works here; let me know if it
   breaks anything for you.
   ----------------------------

The already applied patch including comments can be found here:

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=3Ddetail&aid=3D1265514&group_=
id=3D235&atid=3D300235

The update script po/update.pl is already removed with this patch. As
far as I can see, intltool-update can now be used as a replacement of
po/POTFILES.in:

Checking po/POTFILES.in consistency
-----------------------------------

Old: ./update.pl -M
New: intltool-update -m

I miss the functionality of ./update.pl which shows files in
po/POTFILES.in which do _NOT_ have i18n strings. But this is not a big
issue for me.

Update of a specific translation
--------------------------------

Old: ./update.pl XX  (XX..language code)
New: intltool-update XX

Now my questions:

1) Are you happy with the intltool-patch? I mean, does it work
    correctly?

2) Are you interested in a new update.pl script? I'm familiar with the
    old update.pl code, because I patched it. I think, it's not difficult
    to write a new update.pl script which is basically a wrapper around
    intltool-update.

3) Is it possible to use intltool for the Windows NSIS translations in
    src/win32/nsis/translations? Updating the Windows NSIS translations
    is still a manual job.

Greetings, Bj=F6rn
=D0=94=D0=B0=D0=BD=D0=B0=D1=81 =D1=83 19:23, Ambrose Li =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BF=
=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0:

> In short, "strftime already uses locale settings" makes the following
> faulty/questionable assumptions:
>
> - System's locale translations are always correct (often wrong in CJK
>   locales)

It's not only about "correctness".  %c, %x and %X are simply not
enough of standard formats, and POSIX locale system doesn't provide
enough localisable formats anyway (i.e. we can make cases for
SHORT_TIME, TIME, LONG_TIME, SHORT_DATE, DATE, LONG_DATE, and most of
the combinations of these).=20

That's one of reasons that we've started off Giulia[1] project in
Gnome.=20

[1] http://live.gnome.org/LocaleProject

> - Year always follows month (in CJK languages month follows year)

Yes, this is one of reasons why "%B %Y" *MUST* stay translatable
(including that there might be some additional mark-up needed, such as
"%B, %Y", etc.).

> - Time always follows date (valid in CJK, but I would tend to believe
>   this to be questionable)

Yes, that to.

So, please, keep these localisable.  strftime is far from a solution
to all the date localisation problems.

Cheers,
Danilo

Let me say I hit the "Send" too quickly; I was writing about "%x" and
was thinking about "%c". :-/

So you can ignore my comments about "%x", but I stand by my comments
about "%B %Y".

And I still think we should keep "%x %X" translatable just in case
some language we don't know has to have the time before the date.

On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 01:23:44PM -0500, Ambrose Li wrote:
> 2. In most CJK locales, the "native" (libc-native is what I mean)
>    translation of %x is often wrong.  This is so commonplace that I
>    am actually very worried that our date-writing conventions will
>    be a next victim (after comma placement in large numbers) of
>    the culture-changing effects of ubiquitous buggy software.
> 
>    I am sure some will say gaim is not the place to fix libc bugs.
>    But this bug is too commonplace to be ignored. And the appearance
>    of new, similar bugs in other software means that we can never
>    guarantee bug-free translations in all versions of libc in the
>    future.

Hi,

On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 06:39:05PM +0100, Bjoern Voigt wrote:
> I found the following i18n strings in Gaim 2.0.0cvs:
[...]
> msgid "%B %Y"
[...]
> msgid "%x %X"
[...]
> I don't think so, because strftime() already uses locale settings. Fo=
r
> instance (from "man strftime"):

No, these strings should stay translatable, for at least the following
reasons:

1. libc will not correct the "%B %Y" ordering and will not insert
   missing characters. In all CJK locales, "%B %Y" should be
   translated as "%Y=A6~%m=A4=EB" (i.e., "%Y-year %m-month") (or at
   least as "%Y=A6~%B" which would not give an optimal result in
   zh-TW due to an inconsistency in most versions of libc's in
   Linux).  (In Korean, Korean pronunciations of the words =A6~
   and =A4=EB would appear in the string instead.)  Note that even
   "%Y %B" would be wrong because you really need the word for
   "year" after the "%Y".

2. In most CJK locales, the "native" (libc-native is what I mean)
   translation of %x is often wrong.  This is so commonplace that I
   am actually very worried that our date-writing conventions will
   be a next victim (after comma placement in large numbers) of
   the culture-changing effects of ubiquitous buggy software.

   I am sure some will say gaim is not the place to fix libc bugs.
   But this bug is too commonplace to be ignored. And the appearance
   of new, similar bugs in other software means that we can never
   guarantee bug-free translations in all versions of libc in the
   future.

In short, "strftime already uses locale settings" makes the following
faulty/questionable assumptions:

- System's locale translations are always correct (often wrong in CJK
  locales)

- Year always follows month (in CJK languages month follows year)

- Time always follows date (valid in CJK, but I would tend to believe
  this to be questionable)

Regards,
--=20
Ambrose LI Cheuk-Wing  <a....@ie...>

http://ada.dhs.org/~acli/

Hello!

I found the following i18n strings in Gaim 2.0.0cvs:

#: src/gtklog.c:258
msgid "%B %Y"
msgstr ""

#: src/util.c:632
#, c-format
msgid "%x %X"
msgstr ""

This strings are passed into gaim_utf8_strftime() which is a portable
version of strftime(). Is it correct to mark this strings as
translatable?

I don't think so, because strftime() already uses locale settings. For
instance (from "man strftime"):

        %x     The preferred date representation for the current
               locale without the time.

In theory it's possible that the translator changes the strftime()
format string in his translation. In practice gettext checks carefully
the strings, because it thinks, that strftime() format strings are
printf-strings ("c-format" hint). So there is not much freedom for the
translators in practice and I recommend to remove the i18n marks here.

Greetings, Bj=F6rn
Hello Richard!

I wonder if the following i18n string is really translatable:

gaim/src/protocols/yahoo/yahoo.c:2009-2015
        /*=20
"http://us.dl1.yimg.com/download.yahoo.com/dl/aud/"+locale+"/"+id+".swf" =
*/
        char **audible_locale =3D g_strsplit(id, ".", 0);
        char *buf =3D g_strdup_printf(_("[ Audible %s/%s/%s.swf ] %s"),=20
YAHOO_AUDIBLE_URL, audible_locale[1], id, msg);
        g_strfreev(audible_locale);

        serv_got_im(gc, who, buf, 0, time(NULL));
        g_free(buf);

As far as I can see, the string "[ Audible %s/%s/%s.swf ] %s" is sent=20
over the network to the Yahoo server and the Yahoo servers may get=20
confused about translated commands?

Greetings, Bj=F6rn

Hi,

I just finished the Kurdish translation of the Windows installer and 
created a tracker for it (). Hope it will make it into 2.0 .

By the way, I tested the beta 2 and encountered no problems whatsoever. 
Thanks for all the great work you are doing.

Regards,
Erdal

Hi,

we have the same problem with Kurdish. Not exactly the same, because 
there is a Kurdish translation of NSIS. But there is no Kurdish 
.nsh-file in GAIM. Is it sufficient to translate one of the .nsh-files 
into Kurdish and send it to this mailinglist?

Regards,
Erdal
> the NSIS system that is used by gaim for the win32 installer is
> handled separately from the rest of gaim's source, and is not
> translated via the .po files.  For any given language to be used by
> the installer, two things have to happen
> 1)NSIS itself has to have support for the language
> 2)Gaim just have a .nsh file for it.  you can find the existing .nsh
> files in gaim/src/win32/nsis/translations

On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 09:38:25PM +0100, Laurynas Biveinis wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm doing Lithuanian translation for Gaim 2.0.0. I've started working
> on gaim.pot from 2.0.0beta1 distribution. But later I became
> suspicious about some strings there, for example everything from
> "plugins/crazychat", as I don't see the corresponding source files.
> I've checked with http://gaim.sourceforge.net/i18n/gaim.pot , and see
> the same things here.
> 
> So is the gaim.pot up to date, or source tarballs just don't include
> everything from CVS ? Should I work with CVS version then or can I
> regenerate gaim.pot by myself?
> 
> --
> Thanks in advance,
> Laurynas

CVS contains more than the tarball does currently.  I'm unsure if
that will change before the final release or not.

You can update your translation yourself with the perl scripts in the
po directory, including generating a new .pot file, or you can work
off of cvs. your choice.

luke

Hi,

I'm doing Lithuanian translation for Gaim 2.0.0. I've started working
on gaim.pot from 2.0.0beta1 distribution. But later I became
suspicious about some strings there, for example everything from
"plugins/crazychat", as I don't see the corresponding source files.
I've checked with http://gaim.sourceforge.net/i18n/gaim.pot , and see
the same things here.

So is the gaim.pot up to date, or source tarballs just don't include
everything from CVS ? Should I work with CVS version then or can I
regenerate gaim.pot by myself?

--
Thanks in advance,
Laurynas

Luke Schierer wrote:

>I asked our win32 guy about Bengali, and he says that NSIS doesn't
>have support for it, so simply providing the .nsh file will not be
>sufficient for that language.
>  
>

So, the only option is to use environment variable. :-/

IIRC, NSIS is used in OpenOffice.org too and it can render CTL / UTF-8 
texts. Bengali is CTL also. Anyway, there might be some other issues.. I 
don't know.

`Jamil

On Sat, Jan 21, 2006 at 12:44:06AM +0600, Jamil Ahmed wrote:
> Luke Schierer wrote:
> 
> >>But I could not change the UI language?
> >>   
> >>
> >
> >Gaim follows the language selected during installation for win32
> >installs, unless overridden by the GAIMLANG environment variable.  On
> >unix installs, gaim uses english, else the $LANG variable.
> > 
> >
> 
> After setting GAIMLANG=bn environment variable, it worked. Thanks! :-)
> 
> But why Bengali is not listed in the installation screen? What needs to 
> be done to list Bengali in the installation screen? So people will not 
> need to configure the environment variable.
> 
> Best,
> `Jamil

the NSIS system that is used by gaim for the win32 installer is
handled separately from the rest of gaim's source, and is not
translated via the .po files.  For any given language to be used by
the installer, two things have to happen
1)NSIS itself has to have support for the language
2)Gaim just have a .nsh file for it.  you can find the existing .nsh
files in gaim/src/win32/nsis/translations

currently we have
albanian.nsh
dutch.nsh
hebrew.nsh
polish.nsh
simp-chinese.nsh
vietnamese.nsh
bulgarian.nsh
english.nsh
hungarian.nsh
portuguese-br.nsh
slovak.nsh
catalan.nsh
finnish.nsh
italian.nsh
portuguese.nsh
slovenian.nsh
french.nsh
japanese.nsh
romanian.nsh
spanish.nsh
czech.nsh
galician.nsh
korean.nsh
russian.nsh
swedish.nsh
danish.nsh
german.nsh
norwegian.nsh
serbian-latin.nsh
trad-chinese.nsh

I asked our win32 guy about Bengali, and he says that NSIS doesn't
have support for it, so simply providing the .nsh file will not be
sufficient for that language.

luke

Luke Schierer wrote:

>>But I could not change the UI language?
>>    
>>
>
>Gaim follows the language selected during installation for win32
>installs, unless overridden by the GAIMLANG environment variable.  On
>unix installs, gaim uses english, else the $LANG variable.
>  
>

After setting GAIMLANG=bn environment variable, it worked. Thanks! :-)

But why Bengali is not listed in the installation screen? What needs to 
be done to list Bengali in the installation screen? So people will not 
need to configure the environment variable.

Best,
`Jamil

On Fri, Jan 20, 2006 at 03:21:19AM +0600, Jamil Ahmed wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Today I downloaded CVS version of Gaim [windows platform] from,
> http://geddeth.dk/downloads/gaim/

I have no clue who that is or how they are building gaim.  They may
have disabled internationalization, or not included the message files.

> 
> But I could not change the UI language?

Gaim follows the language selected during installation for win32
installs, unless overridden by the GAIMLANG environment variable.  On
unix installs, gaim uses english, else the $LANG variable.

I do not know how to set environment variables on windows.

> 
> Recently I submitted Bengali translation. And the about box includes 
> Bengali translators name. So I wanted to check the translation through 
> executing Gaim. Help!

I'd suggest building gaim yourself for this purpose.

> 
> Best,
> `Jamil

hope this helps,
luke

Hi,

Today I downloaded CVS version of Gaim [windows platform] from,
http://geddeth.dk/downloads/gaim/

But I could not change the UI language?

Recently I submitted Bengali translation. And the about box includes 
Bengali translators name. So I wanted to check the translation through 
executing Gaim. Help!

Best,
`Jamil

On Thu, Jan 05, 2006 at 01:46:09AM +0100, Javier Fern=E1ndez-Sanguino P=
e=F1a wrote:
>=20
> This is because the po files in CVS do not get regenerated everytime.=
 So
> translators that want to use the CVS and have the same information fr=
om
> the website should run 'update.pl --pot' in the po/ directory to gene=
rate the
> same POT file at the web site (or newer) and 'update.pl XX' (with XX =
their
> language code) to generate a po file for their language based on the =
latest
> pot file generated from CVS sources [1]

Actually the update.pl --pot is unnecessary. The update.pl XX command
automatically regenerates the pot file.

On Fri, Sep 09, 2005 at 02:20:21PM -0400, Luke Schierer wrote:
> At this point in time, using the gaim.pot on the website is (now)
> equivalent to checking out cvs.  It really comes down to a choice of
> how you prefer to manage your translation after it gets committed.
> Some translators prefer one, others prefer the other.

Just one comment here, to clear it up and maybe prevent other translators
=66rom thinking that CVS is always up-to-date. If you check out CVS and use
your po file you are not exactly getting all the strings from the POT file =
in
http://gaim.sourceforge.net/i18n/gaim.pot. This happens even if you use CVS
HEAD right?=20

This is because the po files in CVS do not get regenerated everytime. So
translators that want to use the CVS and have the same information from
the website should run 'update.pl --pot' in the po/ directory to generate t=
he
same POT file at the web site (or newer) and 'update.pl XX' (with XX their
language code) to generate a po file for their language based on the latest
pot file generated from CVS sources [1]

Am I right here or have I missed something?=20

I usually just update only the translation from CVS (i.e. the po file
generated by the gaim developers *not* using the pot file from the website)
in order to avoid translating strings that might not be too "stable" and
might change in one or two days/weeks. It seems, however, that most of the
POT-Creation-Date of all po files in CVS are from October. Should I be using
the latest pot file or should I wait for the string freeze for 2.0.0?

Regards

Javier

[1] This will only work if the translator has 'cvs updated' the whole gaim
directory and subdirectories, not just the 'po' subdirectory.

Luke Schierer wrote:

>On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 02:47:43AM +0600, Jamil Ahmed wrote:
>  
>
>>Luke Schierer wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>I need to know what name(s) to put in help->about and what email(s)
>>>(can be a list)
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Can we change the translators name later? cause current translator 
>>changes some time. or should we put our group/team name? :)
>>    
>>
>
>The most important thing is that we know what sf screenname to expect
>to see, so that we aren't accepting updates from random people.
>

I will submit new/updated translations. My sf screenname is "jamil9610".

>  but
>the name can change as often as you like, or you can put the group
>name. its really up to you.
>  
>

Okay.

Luke Schierer wrote:

>On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 02:34:29AM +0600, Jamil Ahmed wrote:
>  
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>We [www.ankurbangla.org] has partially translated gaim.pot in 
>>Bengali/Bangla. Where should we submit new translation? in this list? 
>>And what other information do we need to provide?
>>
>>Best,
>>`Jamil
>>    
>>
>
>to the translations tracker at
>https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=235&atid=713922
>  
>

Submitted,
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1385500&group_id=235&atid=713922

Thanks,
`Jamil

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