indic-computing-users — Discussing the usage of indian language capable tools

[Indic-computing-users] Indic Computing Charter

[<ve...@vs...>]

http://www.dqindia.com/content/top_stories/102110901.asp

I was going through the Dataquest article and came across the box item on the MAIT Consortium on Innovation and Language Technology (COIL Tech). The charter seems similar (or at least has significant overlaps) with what we are doing. 

This brings me to the next point: we are currently formalizing Indic Computing as a non-profit organization and it would be good to hear this group's opinions on what the charter of Indic Computing should be. Any thoughts on this and on how we can collaborate with MAIT?

Venky


The MAIT Consortium on Innovation and Language Technology (COIL Tech) 
Founded in: 2001 (September) 
Active members: Wipro Infotech, Wipro e-peripherals, TVS Electronics, Lipi Data Systems, Modular Infotech, NIC, C-DAC, NC, Apple Soft, ER&DCI Cyberscope Multimedia, Summit IT, Web Dunia, Blue Cell Technologies, Kannada Ganaka parishat, Anu Graphic Systems, Seacom Solutions ETH research Labs, Softview Computers, Microsoft, IBM, HP Labs.

Core Function: Co-ordinating various activities with IT Industry players and the TDIL (Technology development in Indian Languages)Department of the Ministry of Communications and IT.

The consortium is working with various state governments to make standards compulsory for software development companies in each state. "The Ministry of IT will eventually announce Unicode as the standard to be used in India and this decision will percolate to the state governments," explains MAIT executive director Vinnie Mehta.

CoilTech eventually hopes to graduate to an organization that will incubate young companies and provide IT tools to the developer community free of charge and encourage them to build Indian language software.

"The consortium also expects to be able to export multi-lingual software technologies to other third world countries within the next three to five years," says Mehta. CoilTech has developed standards for font layouts in Devnagari, Gujarati, Malayalam and Punjabi.
 

Re: [Indic-computing-users] Re: input method for IE on Win 98

[Guntupalli K. <kar...@fr...>]

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:54:04 +0530
"Tapan S. Parikh" <ta...@ya...> wrote:

> 
> btw, i meant a UNICODE input method...

Have you tried this - http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/
dont know if its free - in either sense
Aksharmala seems to use this for its support.

Regards,
Karunakar


-- 
Hating people is like burning down your house to get rid of a rat -
Anon

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[Indic-computing-users] Re: input method for IE on Win 98

[Tapan S. P. <ta...@ya...>]

btw, i meant a UNICODE input method...

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:43:25 +0530
"Tapan S. Parikh" <ta...@ya...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Any one know of a good way to generically input indic languages in Win
> 98 browsers (IE and/or Netscape)?  Preferably something free / open
> source / easily available?
> 
> I know this is the 25 million dollar question, but Im just wondering
> if other people have ideas that I dont...  
> 
> I know Sunil was working on a Java applet for this some time back, but
> is he still?  Mithi has some good ActiveX controls also as I
> understand.
>  Anything else that anyone knows about?
> 
> MS distributes Global IME for CJK languages, but nothing for Indic.
> 
> [Please dont flame me for using MS.  Its not my choice.]
> 
> -- Tapan

Re: [Indic-computing-users] input method for IE on Win 98

[<al...@ya...>]

Don't know if that's what what you're looking for but have a look at
http://www.aksharamala.com/
They have something on this; it's actually supposed to be free for a few days.
However, the guy who runs the show (Srinivas) has been known to be considerate
to freelance developers.
Also, the takhti editor at
http://geocities.com/hanu_man_ji/ works even on Win3.1, and the binary is free.
Not exactly an ime but can be used for copy paste.

Actually, I'm yet to find a wysiwyg editor on linux for devanagari. If it can
be done with notepad and takhti I'm sure it can be done on linux too. That's
not relevant to your query; just a thought.

Alok
 --- "Tapan S. Parikh" <ta...@ya...> wrote: > 
> 
> Any one know of a good way to generically input indic languages in Win
> 98 browsers (IE and/or Netscape)?  Preferably something free / open
> source / easily available?
> 
> I know this is the 25 million dollar question, but Im just wondering if
> other people have ideas that I dont...  
> 
> I know Sunil was working on a Java applet for this some time back, but
> is he still?  Mithi has some good ActiveX controls also as I understand.
>  Anything else that anyone knows about?
> 
> MS distributes Global IME for CJK languages, but nothing for Indic.
> 
> [Please dont flame me for using MS.  Its not my choice.]
> 
> -- Tapan
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> _______________________________________________
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> Ind...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/indic-computing-users
> [Other Indic-Computing mailing lists: -devel, -standards, -announce] 

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[Indic-computing-users] input method for IE on Win 98

[Tapan S. P. <ta...@ya...>]

Any one know of a good way to generically input indic languages in Win
98 browsers (IE and/or Netscape)?  Preferably something free / open
source / easily available?

I know this is the 25 million dollar question, but Im just wondering if
other people have ideas that I dont...  

I know Sunil was working on a Java applet for this some time back, but
is he still?  Mithi has some good ActiveX controls also as I understand.
 Anything else that anyone knows about?

MS distributes Global IME for CJK languages, but nothing for Indic.

[Please dont flame me for using MS.  Its not my choice.]

-- Tapan

Re: [Indic-computing-users] copy pasting from ncst-term to mozilla browser form

[<al...@ya...>]

problem solved. Paste to mozilla works for devanagari if the scroll lock is on.
I was keeping scroll lock on, so only the ascii characters were getting pasted.

Will try out gnp and yudit, thanks Tapan and Keyur.

Alok

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Re: [Indic-computing-users] itrans page

[Guntupalli K. <kar...@fr...>]

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:19:41 +0530
Guntupalli Karunakar <kar...@fr...> wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:08:51 +0530
> "Nagarjuna G." <nag...@hb...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > When I open this page http://www.aczone.com/itrans/ex_utf8.html on
> > my Galeon I see devanagri fonts rendered.  This seems to be a
> > complex unicode encoded document, even the html source of this
> > page shows devanagri fonts. I want to know wich font
> > is being used here.  
> > 
>  There is some unicode font which contains devanagari range.
>  could be probably one of these ( if you have not installed any
>  other
> fonts ). it should be the first one only, since this font is in
> /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc & is part of XFree86-base-fonts
> package, path is usually in beggining of font path list. Mozilla
> will use the first font it finds suitable ( unless specified by name
> or asked for scalable ).
> -mutt-clearlyu-medium-r-normal--0-0-100-100-p-0-iso10646-1 - a
> unicode font covering large unicode range
> 
> -sibal-devanagari-medium-r-normal--0-0-75-75-p-0-iso10646-dev ( this
> comes from pango-fonts package from ftp.gtk.org )
> 
 To correct myself , the above one is only used by pango, or when the
user explicitly selects it. So mozilla wont use this font on its own ,
also since its looking for a iso10646-1  & the above one has
iso106460-dev . 



Regards,
Karunakar

-- 
Hating people is like burning down your house to get rid of a rat -
Anon

------------------------------------
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*  Technology for a Free World     *
*  December 3/4/5, 2002            *
*  http://linux-bangalore.org/2002 *
------------------------------------

Re: [Indic-computing-users] itrans page

[Guntupalli K. <kar...@fr...>]

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:08:51 +0530
"Nagarjuna G." <nag...@hb...> wrote:

> 
> When I open this page http://www.aczone.com/itrans/ex_utf8.html on
> my Galeon I see devanagri fonts rendered.  This seems to be a
> complex unicode encoded document, even the html source of this page
> shows devanagri fonts. I want to know wich font
> is being used here.  
> 
 There is some unicode font which contains devanagari range.
 could be probably one of these ( if you have not installed any other
fonts ). it should be the first one only, since this font is in
/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc & is part of XFree86-base-fonts package,
path is usually in beggining of font path list. Mozilla will use the
first font it finds suitable ( unless specified by name or asked for
scalable ).
-mutt-clearlyu-medium-r-normal--0-0-100-100-p-0-iso10646-1 - a unicode
font covering large unicode range

-sibal-devanagari-medium-r-normal--0-0-75-75-p-0-iso10646-dev ( this
comes from pango-fonts package from ftp.gtk.org )

Increase zoom level to see whether it is coming smooth or not, if it
doesnt scale well ( so not ttf/otf is being used ), then its the
'mutt' one.

Regards,
Karunakar

-- 
Hating people is like burning down your house to get rid of a rat -
Anon

------------------------------------
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*  Technology for a Free World     *
*  December 3/4/5, 2002            *
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------------------------------------

[Indic-computing-users] itrans page

[Nagarjuna G. <nag...@hb...>]

When I open this page http://www.aczone.com/itrans/ex_utf8.html on my
Galeon I see devanagri fonts rendered.  This seems to be a complex
unicode encoded document, even the html source of this page shows
devanagri fonts. I want to know wich font
is being used here.  

Nagarjuna

Re: [Indic-computing-users] Re: Showcasing Indian language support in OpenSource stall at Linux Bangalore/2002

[Guntupalli K. <kar...@fr...>]

On 15 Nov 2002 23:25:15 +0530
Sayamindu Dasgupta <unm...@So...> wrote:

> On Fri, 2002-11-15 at 22:00, Guntupalli Karunakar wrote:
> > Hi,
> >  below is text of mail sent to lb2...@li...
> >  for
> > taking space in stall.
> >  Pl. give ur feedback on what all we could do.
> > 
> > *************
> > We would like to apply for a stall in OpenSource stall at LB/02.
> > This will be the Localisation section in the stall ( whats the
> > name of the stall ?). Below is short description of what we expect
> > to do.
> > 
> > Who are 'we' ? 
> >  Members of various Localisation groups viz will try to have at
> >  least
> > 1 member from each team.
> > 
> >   IndLinux (Hindi,Marathi) - http://www.indlinux.org
> >   Kannada  - http://kannada.sourceforge.net/
> > ( Following teams invited - but participation not yet confirmed )
> >   Bengali - http://www.banglalinux.org/
> 
> errr.... www.bengalinux.org (not banglalinux.org)
> and the font site's url is www.nongnu.org/freebangfont/
>
 Ok, will update this, the other ones seems to be for team from
Bangladesh
 
> 
> Also show them that it has support for all other major IM systems
> (YAHOO, MSN, etc)
> I just tried out GAIM 2 from CVS, and the input issue I had referred
> to earlier is fixed.
> 
 That would not be possible, until we have net access to the stall !

> >  - E-mail in indian languages using Balsa 2, K-Mail
> 
> Er, is Balsa2 stable enough  for public display ??
> I had some crazy problems with that :(
> (compose window not resizable, etc)
> 
 Hmm, I am using 2.0.2 no such problem, but having problem sending
mails.

Regards,
Karunakar

-- 
Hating people is like burning down your house to get rid of a rat -
Anon

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------------------------------------

Re: [Indic-computing-users] copy pasting from ncst-term to mozilla browser form

[Keyur S. <key...@ya...>]

--- Alok Kumar <al...@ya...> wrote:
> Hi folks!
> I'm trying to copy some hi_IN.UTF-8 characters from the ncst-term to a
> field in
> form in mozilla 1.1, using GNOME.
> 
> (1)
> Although copy-paste within ncst-term seems to work - select, right click
> and
> then middle button click, I'm not able to copy the text from ncst-term to
> the browser.

It's working at my end. I can select Hindi text in ncst-term and paste it
to Mozilla and vice versa. Are you running both ncst-term and Mozilla after
setting your language to hi_IN.UTF-8?

> 
> (2)
> Also, what tools do you guys use for editing devanagari documents on
> GNOME? I'm
> trying to use vim 6.0+ on ncst-term. The trouble is, the matras display
> properly but the conjucts don't (while I'm editing). For example the word
> mukt
> - the half ka and ta don't show up the way they should. But if I save the
> file
> and reopen it, or cat it on the command line, the kta does show properly.
> Any better way to edit. 

This most probably is the problem with vim-6.x. I have observed that
vim-6.x series is still not able to correctly recognize UTF-8 sequence
sometimes (I use vim-6.0). Alternatively, you can use gnotepad (gnp) to
edit your text. select-copy-paste operation is working properly across
gnotepad, ncst-term, and mozilla.

- Keyur


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[Indic-computing-users] [FYI] 620 million Indians are Waiting for IT - Dataquest article

[Guntupalli K. <kar...@fr...>]

Hi,
  Dataquest has an article on indian languages computing scene. Read
full article at
http://www.dqindia.com/content/top_stories/102110901.asp

----------
620 million Indians are Waiting for IT

Manjiri Kalghatgi

Saturday, November 09, 2002

Advertisement

Over 62% of all Indians can?t use computers because they don?t know
English. And despite a 20-year headstart, the Indian-language software
industry remains less than a drop in the Rs 62,000-cr Indian IT
industry. Bogged down by lack of standardization, the industry has
been overshadowed by the success of software exports. But the
burgeoning e-governance vertical and growing compliance to Unicode
standards could well turn the fortunes of this industry.
--------------


Regards,
Karunakar

-- 
Hating people is like burning down your house to get rid of a rat -
Anon

------------------------------------
*  Linux Bangalore/2002            *
*  Technology for a Free World     *
*  December 3/4/5, 2002            *
*  http://linux-bangalore.org/2002 *
------------------------------------

[Indic-computing-users] copy pasting from ncst-term to mozilla browser form

[<al...@ya...>]

Hi folks!
I'm trying to copy some hi_IN.UTF-8 characters from the ncst-term to a field in
form in mozilla 1.1, using GNOME.

(1)
Although copy-paste within ncst-term seems to work - select, right click and
then middle button click, I'm not able to copy the text from ncst-term to the
browser.

Any way out? This may not be indic language specific as I am new to GNOME, so
please bear with me.

(2)
Also, what tools do you guys use for editing devanagari documents on GNOME? I'm
trying to use vim 6.0+ on ncst-term. The trouble is, the matras display
properly but the conjucts don't (while I'm editing). For example the word mukt
- the half ka and ta don't show up the way they should. But if I save the file
and reopen it, or cat it on the command line, the kta does show properly. Any
better way to edit. 

Although this is something I can "live with" as opposed to (1) which is a must,
it would be good to know if there are alternatives.


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[Indic-computing-users] [Fwd: RE: [Freebangfont-devel] Bengali OT specification]

[Sayamindu D. <unm...@So...>]

This one is quite an interesting article
http://www.exnet.btinternet.co.uk/
-sdg-

-----Forwarded Message-----

From: Andy White <And...@bt...>
To: fre...@no...
Subject: RE: [Freebangfont-devel] Bengali OT specification
Date: 17 Nov 2002 12:22:34 +0000

> Microsoft have finalised and published Bengali
> OpenType Specification

Well err.. Not exactly, The final version (with corrections) will
hopefully be put up the middle of next week.

Meanwhile Please see my Why the Unicode Indic FAQ Part 1 article at
http://www.exnet.btinternet.co.uk/

Best regards

Andy



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Re: [Indic-computing-users] netscape after indix F

[<al...@ya...>]

Hi  Keyur,
Thanks.
> 
> The problem is with the older version of ttmkfdir utility. The utility is
> not able to recognize iso10646 (or Unicode) encoding properly.
> 
This was fine, the fonts files were proper.

> Also, Netscape 4.x series is not able to correctly process all Unicode
> characters. You should use either Netscape 6.x series or Mozilla on Linux.
> 
Upgrading to Mozilla 1.1 solved the problem.

Regards
Alok

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[Indic-computing-users] RE: ANARCHY OF KANNADA STANDARDS IN IT.

[<ar...@bg...>]

Dear Colleagues,

I presume that Mr. Harsha is replying to mails on behalf of the people (I have got it confirmed over phone from one of my friend in that group) whom I have quoted my mail. Hence my reply to this mail is not addressed to you personally but I am addressing it to the same group whom I quoted in my earlier mail.

Anbarasan : It is this annoying trick which is being followed by the 'Specific Group' for Kannada in standardising and developing NUDI for Kannada while blaming the developers. Why this 'Specific Group' never attempted to invent a technology to handle Kannada efficiently using ISCII on computers for the off-the-shelf applications. I leave it to your guess and further pacifying. 

KGP : Why you people never attempted to invent a technology to handle Tamil efficiently using ISCII ? and why are you people using TSCII ? 

Anbarasan : "You people" - who is this? It is me or Tamil community. By trying to link my identity with Tamil you are proving how immoral you people are. Instead of asking me this question that why Tamils have not attempted to invent technology to handle Tamil efficiently using ISCII? you should have bothered about Kannada since I have served Kannada Language from 1989. You are trying to hide this thirteen years of my service to Kannada Language and trying to isolate me in Kannada development on the digital media. I am dedicating myself in developing technology for all Indian Languages. I am not particular about any one language. Coming to my technology development in handling ISCII on computers. It is the SURABHI, the first "software only" technological solution (there were only two efforts on this direction one is at APPLESOFT the other was at CIIL Mysore, later on CDAC has announced their GIST Shell) developed to support ISCII on all text based application software on MS DOS. Thereby SURABHI supported MS DOS, Norton Editor, WordStar, Dbase, Lotus 1-2-3. This product was demonstrated at the exhibition organised at Vidhana soudha, Bangalore for the inauguration of Kannada Jagruthi varsha celebrations. The demonstration of SURABHI software was broadcast on the Bangalore Doordharshan on the computerisation efforts of Karnataka Government.

Every indic computing developer pretty well aware that the problem involved in implementing ISCII in MS Windows platforms to make use of ISCII in all the off the shelf application software like MS Office or StarOffice. I humbly submit that APPLESOFT is the only organization to demonstrate the possibility of using ISCII for internal storage with standard application software like Notepad, Wordpad, MS Word etc. I am quoting these two of my technological contributions to Indian Languages which enabled the most popular OS of the day. I would like to draw the attention of member of this forum to note that, it is this group continuously blamed the developers since the inception of KGP through mass media propaganda, fooled the media persons by claiming ISCII superiority on one hand and developing software using glyphs on the other hand. That is the reason I am trying to expose these people.

So, you are accepting that you have followed Tamil standardisation effort. You are referring to Tamil standardisation effort now to cover up your mischievous standards. While giving interviews or instigating others to write your standardisation efforts you people were conveniently hiding the fact that your standardisation efforts were based on Tamil, while so far claiming your standardisation efforts are first of its kind in India.

* Why only referring Tamil - with my own expenses incurring financial losses contributed to develop language standardisation efforts of all languages which I came to know.
* Why bother about whether anybody invented any new technology for Tamil or not.
* If Tamil got developed it would have been a model for people like you to copy and claim.
* Can you justify that if Tamil was not developed, you people also would not develop Kannada.

Since you people (Refer Dr. Pavanaja's interview with Frederick Noronha, "Kannada Connects" available on-line at http://www.blonnet.com/ew/2002/03/06/stories/2002030600090200.htm and "Kannada on the keyboard, finally" available at http://www.zdnetindia.com/print.html, he says "We feel the best solution is to have the storage in ISCII. Other solutions have attempted to tie up the user in their own software solutions") are claiming the ISCII is the most suitable for Kannada, it is your interest to develop/invent a technology to handle ISCII and not Tamils to invent technology of ISCII who are not accepting ISCII as a suitable standard for TAMIL. Same is the case with Unicode. That is the reason, why Tamilnadu Government attempted to make a scientific study on the alternate encoding mechanism which NO other Indian language has ever attempted. If you people have made any attempt to prove efficiency of KSCLP over ISCII/Unicode, why it is not published, you make it public.

TSCII is not a standard announced or endorsed by any government and hence TSCII is not a approved standard. TSCII is being promoted by people who don't accept the standards. TSCII may become a standard if the user community accepts it because of the failure of the standards. For your information, Tamilnadu Government has announced three prototype encoding standards based on character encoding, a bi-lingual glyph encoding, a monolingual glyph encoding. However, Character encoding standard is still pending. As of now only TAB and TAM  are the only standards for Tamil. If you need any further details why three encoding is needed for a language, you may refer to my paper presented in the Tamil Internet 1999 International seminar held at Chennai. If you don't get any information, you may come to my office and have a look into it. If you still not clear on the standardisation issues, you refer to my book on Evolving Tamil Standards which deals with aspects of existing and evolving standards. Further, you are free to contact me for any clarifications. If you don't wish to do so, we still continue on this forum.

In my opinion none of the font (the so called) standards can be accepted as standards as they are yet to be recognised by the standards body.

As you people always blame the developer, I have not seen any instance of such thing in Tamil computing. Moreover, there is no instances of unethical copying of technology like you people have done and blaming the developer.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anbarasan : Later on, when the Specific Group reached the peak of confusion, came out with another altogether different set of character set as Kannada Standard Code for Language Processing. Strangely, the arguable special symbol for 'r' is left out in this character set. If KSCLP code set is meant for Language processing, then what else the other encodings ISCII/UNICODE etc., do. Does it mean that the Group is not aware of the sorting problems when they submitted the recommendation. Why the Government is insisting on SORTING order as per ISCII when KGP is allowed to do sorting based on KSCLP. Is it not a malpractice recommending two different standards based on altogether different principle and use it for self advantage. Are they not misleading the Kannada people, people of Karnataka and the Government of Karnataka. If Character encoding (KSCLP) is the most suitable for Kannada Language processing, why the same was not recommended for Unicode. Is it not a wonder? 

KGP : We have never came out with confusion, instead we are still using ISCII for storage in Nudi to maintain the National standards, where as design of ISCII never solves the sorting problems of Kannada so for sorting, searching and other language processing we are using  KSCLP as the INTERMEDIET CODE. and also as the govt. standard says "WE CAN NOT CHANGE OUR LANGUAGE RULES TO SUITE THE TECHNOLOGY, INSTEAD TECHNOLOGY HAS TO BE CHANGED TO SUIT THE LANGUAGE" and KSCLP is the best example for this. its true that KSCLP is most suitable for Kannada language processing, but since "wrong standards which were in ISCII, is also copied to Unicode" ( Its Realy a wonder ) and now consortium cannot modify the previous standard, the KSCLP recommended by KGP is not accepted by Unicode consortium. 

Anbarasan : You people are playing a dirty game by combining a dirty wordprocessor and dirty input interface and confuse the concerned Govt officials and journalist by false claims. Wherein, ISCII storage facility is provided only in the NUDI wordprocessor, while input interface of NUDI facilitates storing glyphs. Simillary, when you people claim Nudi is having sorting facility, can NUDI facilitate sorting in all application software where sorting facility for English is available. Definitely NO. Then why you people are misleading everyone by saying NUDI is having sorting facility. When NUDI is used as a keyboard interface with any off-the-shelf application for example say MS Word, the storage is still glyphs not ISCII as you are claiming. By making this kind of blind statements, you are also exposing your malpractice.

It is known for every one, who is involved with standards that the purpose of standard encoding is not solving the sorting problems but to achieve linguistic analysis (refer Unicode). To achieve sorting, a separate table needs to be maintained. So, a table designed to handle sorting issue can't be called as a standard for a language. Then why you people claim KSCLP(which is designed for sorting) as a standard for Kannada and recommend to Unicode consortium. Have you ever submited your KSCLP standard to MCIT or BIS for their consideration as a standard for Kannada. 

Let KSCLP be a most suitable standard for Kannada, when KGP has submitted the KSCLP proposed to Unicode consortium? through whom? what is the reference? who has represented KGP?, who has attended the Unicode consortium Meeting? why the same was not sent to Karnataka Government to forward the same? is that KGP has submitted the proposal directly to Unicode Consortium to project itself.

Which is the Govt order you are referring. Don't quote anything off the air, substantiate all your claims with appropriate reference/results.

If ISCII is a wrong standard, as you pointed out, the same wrong standard is also copied into Unicode. How dare you people are hiding the very fact that you people have prepared documentation for the same wrong Unicode and sent to Unicode consortium for its inclusion. It is to be noted that KSCLP is based on pure consonant approach where the Consonant and vowel combines (it also contains vowel signs or mathras, which is the secondary symbol of the vowels. For NLP the text is expected to be based on the Vowels and Consonants. For sorting, it is expected to be based on Vowel signs. Can the same text be available in two different encodings.) whereas ISCII/Unicode is based on vowelised consonant where the vowelised consonant joins with the mathras to form vowelconsonants (the vowels don't join with the consonants). Afterall KSCLP can be used only for sorting not NLP, which is based on the vowels and consonants. In KSCLP mathras are used to form vowelconsonants. Why you people claim both (KSCLP and Unicode) as standard. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anbarasan : Let me focus on, how ambiguously they interpret the Language, which resulted in today's anarchy. Leave alone the complexities of script composition, Kannada has one special interpretation of consonant 'r' as in Karnataka when written in Kannada. Which is a most commonly used form of 'r'. The so called experts, instead of handling the complexity of 'r' in the software have introduced it as one of the symbol in the standards announced for Kannada Keyboard (reference Karnataka G.O sa am ka e 70 kaa 99 dated 4-2-1999). In this standard, 47 necessary Kannada characters and 4 symbols are listed for modern Kannada language issued by the secretariat of Kannada and Culture. 

KGP : The keyboard layout is designed by our experts is to suit all sorts of end users such as the users who are familier with using the Kanglish keyboard in Baraha, Typewriter users, KP Rao layout users, and the DOE layout users. After a discussion it is found that DOE layout is most horrible which is very difficult to learn and the number of keystrokes are more. Kanglish layout in Baraha is offcource easy for Kanglish users but it will be difficult for the users who dont know english, ( A user has to learn english to work with Kannada software Baraha ) and offcource it is not a Kannada keyboard layout its a standard English Keyboard. KP Rao layout is most suitable to all ( Even for those who are using Baraha ) and is very easy to lean ( Its proved ). So KGP finaly came out with KP Rao Keyboard layout with some some small changes which were recomonded by expers. 

Anbarasan : You have not answered the basic question of why the dual interpretation of 'r' is included in the keyboard standard as separate key. 

I am interested in evolving the best of the features for a standard as such, can you publish your findings on Inscript keyboard, let people know how horrible is DOE keyboard!. Without any substantiable study or findings and without disclosing any such study if at all you have carried out, no one will buy your statements.

"Discuss and discard" is the way you people have evolved all the standards without any scientific study or implementation.

How your keyboard is proved over others, any sensible debate/discussions needs scientific findings.

As you cry for the heavenliness of the development you made, can you point out the discussion forums/e-groups/details on the committees who have discussed/studied/proved the greatness of your standards. Can you at least point out any RFC for these developments. Or at least can you list out the design principles of the standards, in my argument, you people didn't have any design principles either for keyboard layout design or Font design or prescribed minimum feature for Kannada software.

When Baraha input method can be used only by those who know English as you point out, How come KP Rao keyboard can be used without learning English. Afterall, the Kannada letters in the KP Rao keyboard layout were mapped based on the English letters. The fact is, you people wanted to take advantage of default English keyboard to learn / remember the Kannada keys by foregoing the advantage of designing a keyboard based on scientific study like frequency analysis and linguistic analysis.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anbarasan : Can any one list out the ten features that KGP has provided with NUDI as claimed by the Specific Group. NUDI, purported to be the benchmark software has been developed with non-standard fonts like English numerals, bi-lingual fonts, No conversion utilities. 

KGP : Font with English numerals can not be a non standard font since portabality will be there. It is just provided for the convience of user. When talking about Nudi  its not a full fledged word Processor. It is a Keyboard driver which works for layout specified by Govt. Of Karnataka, and some fonts with Govt standards. Nudi ( Latest is 3.0 Release 2 ) comes with many features as fallows. 

- Sorting is provided as per the "Kannada Sahitya" which is there in none of other Kannada Softwares which were only developed for DTP operators. 

- SDK is provided with conversion functions from and to all types of codes like KSCLP, ISCII, Bi-Lingual Glyph, Monolinugual glyph, in-built keyboard engine which can be used by any developers to develop Kannada applications "which are not only meant for DTP operators".

-Template files given for MS-Word and MS-Excel ( available in Release 2 ) which allows to sort search and to use many other features which are available in MS-Word, MS-Excel. 

Anbarasan : Nobody accept NUDI as a software, it crudely provides input interface that's all. It is not even a driver as claimed by you.

What is the Govt standard? Govt standard only contains Glyphs for Kannada script, Kannada Numerals, and Punctuation marks Govt never announced any standard with Bi-lingual nature, if anything is there, you would have given reference to that. In the absence of any standard for Bi-lingual fonts, don't claim that NUDI comes with Government standard fonts and a software based on a standard has to follow the standards. You people could have added additional features but not the fonts based on the proprietory encoding. You people have implemented bi-lingual fonts to establish monopoly by taking undue advantage by implementing this non-standard font in the e-governance projects. It is sure that this is going to messup the data while migrating to another encoding say Unicode.

As you have copied the methodology of our software which were given for testing, evaluation and certification. You have copied the methodology of providing sorting facility in MS Word in NUDI, your claim of no software were developed with sorting is false and intentional to defame and gain undue advantage and fame for yourself. The proof of our software SURABHI having sorting facility is the test report given by the KGP.

"Standardisation is somethig that has to be imposed" says Dr. Pavanaja in the interview quoted elsewhere in this mail. You people must understand that standards can't be imposed. You people can play the dirty game only to gain monopoly in the Kannada software field by introducing the non-standard fonts like Bi-lingual fonts as you have introduced with NUDI and in the e-governance projects of Government of Karnataka. It is sure that your monopoly act would only result in bottleneck for Kannada in further development.

You are still accusing the developer (you are trying to be out of the developer community) while still following the same age old methodology. It is a unfair game you people have just started. Atlast, you are accepting you are not a developer but you are a tinkerer. That is why you have taken a sample code and tinkered around to put UI in Kannada and claimed you have developed the controversial NUDI.

Do you people have developed the NUDI software without funding from Government. Even after receiving fund from the Government you people are conveniently hiding the fact that NUDI is funded by the Government. It is also true that you people are distributing NUDI for Rs.100.00 per copy (while spending only 20% of it, it means that you are making 80% profit) without any training or support. 

My accusation is that you people are getting funds from the Government and try to build your foundations for future business prospects by monopolising Kannada software industry with the help of the officials of Directorate of Information Technology. Dr. Pavanaja's Visvakannada Softech is the example of this type. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anbarasan : Kannada has become a victim of jealousy KGP. 

I wish Kannada with its outstanding 2300 years of survival and very rich literary contribution has to face this challenge and expose the erratic management of Kannada standards by KGP to maintain its sustained growth and enthronement on digital media.

With my everlasting love and creed towards Kannada Kasthuri I have taken your precious time. I welcome your views on this subject.

KGP : Kannada was a victim of jealousy Kannada Software developers who developed keyboard drivers with some ( Beautiful fontS ) just to attract DTP operators and make money they were never thought of developing some standards for glyph and storage ( if they do this  they will loose customers ). Now there game is end!. 

THANK GOD FINALLY SOME STANDARDS HAS COME. 

I wish Kannada with its outstanding 2300 years of survival and very rich literary contribution has to face this challenge and support standards provided by Govt. Of. Karnataka. 

With my everlasting love and creed towards Kannada I welcome your comments on this subject. 

Anbarasan : Your accusation on the Kannada software developers that the developers never contributed in developing standards is like a daylight robbery. It tentamounts to show the most vulnerable ungrateful re-course on those who have spent their everything for the noble cause of beloved languages on digital media. After the committee on standardising glyphs and codes have submitted the draft version, the same was sent to the developers for their comments. Developers of SURABHI, BARAHA, SHREE LIPI have contributed details on the usability of codes, organising the glyphs etc. The present standard is the witness for how much of the developers comments have helped in evolving the standard. By hiding their contributions, you are exposing your integrity (which is being questioned). It is unfortunate that the Government is sponsoring your activities and colluded with you people.

I thought you people only copy the methodology and technolgy invented by others but your reply proves you are copying even the writings (feelings).

N. ANBARASAN
email : ar...@bg... , phone : +91-080-3386167.

Re: [Indic-computing-users] Collaborative Translation

[Tapan S. P. <ta...@ya...>]

I think this is a wonderful idea, and will try to work on it soon.  If
no one else can, I can offer web space and my programming (in PHP) also.
 I think there are also some tools for Win we can use as a model.

Hope to get to work on this soon.  Anyone want to join me?

-- Tapan


On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:12:00 +0530
jitendra <jit...@vs...> wrote:

> Is it possible that we have a site where people translate and comment
> on others translations.
> Is it also possible to arrive at varieties like 'Khadi-boli' and
> 'Shuddha' and hinglish.
> If we can place the .po files or whatever translatable strings  on the
> web sites and create a dialogue box for people to translate and upload
> their files (online translation may be too difficult to manage) and
> then invite schools and colleges to collaborate , even compete and
> announce the awards for highest contributions measured in terms of new
> words translated, sentences translated etc, we may be able to enthuse
> many people.
> I hope Sun Microsysytems will also like the idea.
> I would volunteer to take on some  task if necessary. Though minimal,
> finacial support will be necessary, including web-space etc.
> Will NCST agree to the idea.
> jitendra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by: To learn the basics of securing 
> your web site with SSL, click here to get a FREE TRIAL of a Thawte 
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> [Other Indic-Computing mailing lists: -devel, -standards, -announce]

Re: [Indic-computing-users] netscape after indix F

[Keyur S. <key...@ya...>]

--- Alok Kumar <al...@ya...> wrote:
> > However, the raghu font doesn't appear in the listing for unicode. Only
> in
> > user
> > defined, Raghindi font appears.
> > So how do I go about viewing http://hindi.mozzie.org in Netscape? The
> version
> > is 4.76 for Netscape.

The problem is with the older version of ttmkfdir utility. The utility is
not able to recognize iso10646 (or Unicode) encoding properly.

Go into the directory where raghu font has been installed. Look for the
files: fonts.scale, fonts.dir, and fonts.alias files. Edit each file one by
one and change the encoding name (last two fields) in XLFD name of the font
to iso10646-1. For example, if last two fields in the name appears as
ISCII-DEV r iso8859-1 then replace it by iso10646-1.

Also, Netscape 4.x series is not able to correctly process all Unicode
characters. You should use either Netscape 6.x series or Mozilla on Linux.

- Keyur



__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

[Indic-computing-users] netscape after indix F

[<al...@ya...>]

 --- MAI...@ya... wrote: > Date: 16 Nov 2002 15:54:26 -0000
> From: MAI...@ya...
> To: al...@ya...
> Subject: failure delivery
> 
> Message from  yahoo.com.
> Unable to deliver message to the following address(es).
> 
> <ind...@li...i?i>:
> Sorry, I couldn't find any host named lists.sourceforge.neti?i. (#5.1.2)
> 
> --- Original message follows.
> 
> Return-Path: <al...@ya...>
> Message-ID: <200...@we...>
> Received: from [61.1.145.119] by web40908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 16
> Nov 2002 15:54:25 GMT
> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:54:25 +0000 (GMT)
> From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Alok=20Kumar?= <al...@ya...>
> Subject: netscape after indixUindix installationI>???i
> To: ind...@li...i?i
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> 
> Hi,
> I have installed Indix on RH 7.1. 
> Now, in GNOME, I'm using the hi_IN.UTF-8 locale. Although the menus appear in
> devanagari without any problems, Netscape is unable to display devanagari.
> Maninder Bali's Indic fonts howto says that for unicode, the fonts should be
> set to raghu - both fixed width and variable width.
> However, the raghu font doesn't appear in the listing for unicode. Only in
> user
> defined, Raghindi font appears.
> So how do I go about viewing http://hindi.mozzie.org in Netscape? The version
> is 4.76 for Netscape.
> 
> Regards
> Alok
> 
> 
> =====
> This message was sent from alkuma "at" yahoo "dot" com 
> http://www.geocities.com/alkuma/
> http://www.geocities.com/mudralipi
> http://www.geocities.com/shabdanjali/
> http://hindi.mozzie.org
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV.
>        visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com 

=====
This message was sent from alkuma "at" yahoo "dot" com 
http://www.geocities.com/alkuma/
http://www.geocities.com/mudralipi
http://www.geocities.com/shabdanjali/
http://hindi.mozzie.org

________________________________________________________________________
Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV.
       visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com

[Indic-computing-users] Artiicle on Bangla IM

[Sayamindu D. <unm...@So...>]

Check this out 
http://www.ilug-cal.org/node.php?id=47
-sdg-

-- 
Sayamindu Dasgupta [http://www.peacefulaction.org/sayamindu/]

 
       * GNU is Not Unix *
.... Towards World Liberation ....
        http://www.gnu.org

[Indic-computing-users] Windows plans on Indianisation...

[Frederick N. <fr...@by...>]

Contending that it was very important to localise software in India, Gates
announced plans to market "Microsoft XP" and its next version "Office 11" --
code named "cash cow" -- in Indian languages like Hindi, Bengali and
Malayalam and extend it to nine more Indian languages in 2003. Work on this
is underway at Microsoft's development centre in Hyderabad. 

[Indic-computing-users] NEWS: Multilingual text editor for Indian languages (Kalyana Krishnan)

[Frederick N. <fr...@by...>]

Congrats! FN

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:53:43 CST
From: Kalyana Krishnan <rk...@ac...>
Subject: Mutlilingual Text Editor for Indian languages

Multilingual Data preparation software for
Indian languages and South Asian scripts.

  Systems Development Laboratory, IIT Madras, India
  is pleased to announce the availability of a useful
  multilingual text editor running under Linux
  for Indian languages and some South Asian scripts.
   
  The text editor may be used to prepare multilingual
  documents in all the Indian languages as well as 
  English (standard Roman). The text may be used for 
  linguistic processing in a uniform manner across
  all the Indian languages. The editor application
  is not tied to the availability of any specific
  font resource and can be configured to use many
  different fonts without effecting any change in the
  data entry method. This has been achieved through
  the use of syllable level codes to represent the
  text internally. The present version supports the
  following scripts.

  Devanagari, Gujarati, Gurmukhi, bengali, Oriya,
  Telugu, Kannada, Tamil and Malayalam. Other scripts
  which can be used with the editor include Sinhalese,
  Bali, Oromo (Ethiopia), Japanese Kana and classical
  Greek. BDF fonts for the Indian scripts are included
  in the distribution.       

  Details of the editor along with downloading
  instructions, system requirements etc., are available
  at the web site of the Systems Development Lab.

  http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/software/Linux_ed.html

  It has been the policy of the lab to distribute the
  multilingual software free of charge. The multilingual
  editor for Linux may be downloaded free from the
  above site. The downloadable software also includes
  utilities for converting the text to other formats
  such as HTML, PDF and Graphic images. The web site
  has many pages devoted to the intricacies of computing
  with Indian languages.

  The application has been developed using GTK 1.2 and
  is known to work properly with X11 in RedHat6.2 and 7.2.
  It should work with other distributions as well.

  For specific information please contact
  
  R.Kalyana Krishnan
  Professor
  Department of Computer Science
  IIT Madras 600 036
  India
  rk...@ac...
  rk...@sh...

##########################################################################
# Send submissions for comp.os.linux.announce to: co...@st... #
# PLEASE remember a short description of the software and the LOCATION.  #
# This group is archived at http://stump.algebra.com/~cola/              #
##########################################################################
------------------------------

Re: [Indic-computing-users] Re: Showcasing Indian language support in OpenSource stall at Linux Bangalore/2002

[Sayamindu D. <unm...@So...>]

On Fri, 2002-11-15 at 22:00, Guntupalli Karunakar wrote:
> Hi,
>  below is text of mail sent to lb2...@li... for
> taking space in stall.
>  Pl. give ur feedback on what all we could do.
> 
> *************
> We would like to apply for a stall in OpenSource stall at LB/02. This
> will be the Localisation section in the stall ( whats the name of the
> stall ?). Below is short description of what we expect to do.
> 
> Who are 'we' ? 
>  Members of various Localisation groups viz will try to have at least
> 1 member from each team.
> 
>   IndLinux (Hindi,Marathi) - http://www.indlinux.org
>   Kannada  - http://kannada.sourceforge.net/
> ( Following teams invited - but participation not yet confirmed )
>   Bengali - http://www.banglalinux.org/

errr.... www.bengalinux.org (not banglalinux.org)
and the font site's url is www.nongnu.org/freebangfont/


>   Tamil   - http://www.tamillinux.org/
>   Malayalam - http://malayalamlinux.sourceforge.net
>   LLI     - http://lli.linux-bangalore.org
> 
> Our goal
>  Showcase whats available wrt Indian language support on Linux
> including distros like Redhat 8.0, Mandrake 9.0 etc.
>  Create awareness about Localisation into Indian languages.
>  
> Requirements
>  Hardware : 1-2 PCs - min config. Celeron 300 or above, 128MB ram,
> CDROM, LAN card
>  Software : Redhat 7.3/8.0, Mandrake 9.0, Gnome 2, KDE 3.x, XFree86
> 4.2
> 
> ( if possible ) access to CDRS data to collect demographics of those
> visiting localisation stall & talks and email localisation newsletter 
>  
> What we will do
>  Have 10-15 min sessions explaining to delegates what is localisation,
> what they can do & how to join in.
>  Possibly distribute 1 pager containing breif on localisation on one
> side & links to team pages on other side.
> 
> Demos: following demos could be shown
>  - Gnome 2 desktop in Hindi
>  - Tamil KDE desktop
>  - Malayalam support - fonts, renderers

Bangla also has quite good rendering support with pango 


>  - Bangla support - fonts
>  - Kannada translations
>  - Chatting in indian languages using Gaim 2 (Jabber as backend)

Also show them that it has support for all other major IM systems
(YAHOO, MSN, etc)
I just tried out GAIM 2 from CVS, and the input issue I had referred to
earlier is fixed.

>  - E-mail in indian languages using Balsa 2, K-Mail

Er, is Balsa2 stable enough  for public display ??
I had some crazy problems with that :(
(compose window not resizable, etc)



>  - Indian languages on web using Unicode - using Mozilla/Konqueror
>  - Using unicode editor  Yudit.
>  - Using Gtranslator for translations
>  - IndLinux Hindi installer (based on Redhat 8.0)




-- 
Sayamindu Dasgupta [http://www.peacefulaction.org/sayamindu/]

 
       * GNU is Not Unix *
.... Towards World Liberation ....
        http://www.gnu.org

[Indic-computing-users] Re: Showcasing Indian language support in OpenSource stall at Linux Bangalore/2002

[Guntupalli K. <kar...@fr...>]

Hi,
 below is text of mail sent to lb2...@li... for
taking space in stall.
 Pl. give ur feedback on what all we could do.

*************
We would like to apply for a stall in OpenSource stall at LB/02. This
will be the Localisation section in the stall ( whats the name of the
stall ?). Below is short description of what we expect to do.

Who are 'we' ? 
 Members of various Localisation groups viz will try to have at least
1 member from each team.

  IndLinux (Hindi,Marathi) - http://www.indlinux.org
  Kannada  - http://kannada.sourceforge.net/
( Following teams invited - but participation not yet confirmed )
  Bengali - http://www.banglalinux.org/
  Tamil   - http://www.tamillinux.org/
  Malayalam - http://malayalamlinux.sourceforge.net
  LLI     - http://lli.linux-bangalore.org

Our goal
 Showcase whats available wrt Indian language support on Linux
including distros like Redhat 8.0, Mandrake 9.0 etc.
 Create awareness about Localisation into Indian languages.
 
Requirements
 Hardware : 1-2 PCs - min config. Celeron 300 or above, 128MB ram,
CDROM, LAN card
 Software : Redhat 7.3/8.0, Mandrake 9.0, Gnome 2, KDE 3.x, XFree86
4.2

( if possible ) access to CDRS data to collect demographics of those
visiting localisation stall & talks and email localisation newsletter 
 
What we will do
 Have 10-15 min sessions explaining to delegates what is localisation,
what they can do & how to join in.
 Possibly distribute 1 pager containing breif on localisation on one
side & links to team pages on other side.

Demos: following demos could be shown
 - Gnome 2 desktop in Hindi
 - Tamil KDE desktop
 - Malayalam support - fonts, renderers
 - Bangla support - fonts
 - Kannada translations
 - Chatting in indian languages using Gaim 2 (Jabber as backend)
 - E-mail in indian languages using Balsa 2, K-Mail
 - Indian languages on web using Unicode - using Mozilla/Konqueror
 - Using unicode editor  Yudit.
 - Using Gtranslator for translations
 - IndLinux Hindi installer (based on Redhat 8.0)
 -  .... Awaiting more ideas from others
 
Thats all for now - maybe will add more to this once I get feedback
from other teams.
*****************

Regards,
Karunakar

-- 
Hating people is like burning down your house to get rid of a rat -
Anon

------------------------------------
*  Linux Bangalore/2002            *
*  Technology for a Free World     *
*  December 3/4/5, 2002            *
*  http://linux-bangalore.org/2002 *
------------------------------------

Re: [Indic-computing-users] OLD - IT LOCALISATION CLINIC (11-13 November, 2002)

[Nagarjuna G. <nag...@hb...>]

Prof. Jitender Shaw attended this meeting.  He is preparing an
approach paper and will soon post to the list.

Nagarjuna


On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 04:41:56PM +0530, Guntupalli Karunakar wrote:
> This was held few days back in Udaipur
> 
> http://www.itinhindi.org/events_files/PROGRAMME.htm
> http://www.itinhindi.org/events_files/calllforparticipation.htm
> 
> Background
> 
> IT and Internet have emerged as productivity and knowledge enhancing
> technologies. Collaborative development is fast emerging as the norm
> of future technological advancements, and their diffusion and
> absorption in society. As an enabling technology IT could help reduce
> the knowledge gap across different linguistic groups encompassing over
> 95 percent of India?s population that is not English literate. It is
> therefore necessary that people should be able to use computers and
> other IT system in their own language and drive benefits of enhanced
> productivity and better quality of life.
> 
>  
> 
> The CoIL-Net  ?Content creation of IT Localization Network? programme
> of MICT, Government of India has been started with the aim to develop
> core technologies for Hindi and IT localization solutions in which the
> academic institutions from the states of Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh,
> Uttaranchal, Madhya Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar and Chhattishgarh along
> with research groups from C-DAC, Pune, IGNCA, New Delhi and IIT,
> Kanpur have been identified to work towards achieving the goal.
> 
> The broad objectives of holding the clinic are:
> 
>     * To provide a boost to IT localization based Socio ? Economic
> Development in the state through proliferation of IT in Hindi, in the
> state.
>     * To help in bridging the existing digital divide by appreciably
> improving IT penetration and awareness level in using the Hindi as
> medium of delivery.
> 
>  
> Theme
> 
> Under the aegis of this project Banasthali Vidyapith is holding the
> first IT Localization clinic from November 11-13, 2002. The clinic
> shall have presentations by groups working for the purpose of IT
> Localization as well as demonstrations of IT Localization solutions
> available in the market.
>  
> General Information
> 
> There is no registration fee for participation. A limited number of
> outside participants may be provided with accomodation.
>  
> Venue
> 
> Computer Centre,
> 
> Mohanlal Sukhadia University,
> 
> Udaipur-313001
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Karunakar
>  

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