gamedevlists-general — List for discussing general game development issues

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Matt N. <mat...@ni...>]

> <stir>
>=20
> In the EU you can't work more than 37.5 hours, in Spain you=20
> have siestas.=20
>=20
> </stir>

I don't think the regulations say you *can't* work more than 37.5 hours, =
they say you can't be *required* to work more than 37.5 hours which is =
rather different. So you can't be sacked for refusing to work more than =
37.5 hours but if you choose to work more hours that's fine.

Matt.=20

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release Date: 01/06/2003
=20

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Toni <to...@4d...>]

Wayne Coles wrote:

>You have Spanish women though, please don't tell me that's a misconception
>;)
>
>Wayney
>  
>
No, no, that's true :) but dunno why spanish men find sexier non spanish 
women :o

Toni
Lead Programmer
insideo.com

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Wayne C. <wc...@re...>]

> No no,. that's a missconception :) we don't have siestas excepting,
> probably  the weekends, and  man, i work much more than 37.5 hours (over
> 50-60 /week). That 37.5 is only appliable to non computer related jobs i
> assume.

You have Spanish women though, please don't tell me that's a misconception
;)

Wayney

-Virus scanned and cleared ok

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Toni <to...@4d...>]

><stir>
>
>In the EU you can't work more than 37.5 hours, in Spain you have siestas. 
>
></stir>
>  
>
No no,. that's a missconception :) we don't have siestas excepting, 
probably  the weekends, and  man, i work much more than 37.5 hours (over 
50-60 /week). That 37.5 is only appliable to non computer related jobs i 
assume.

Toni
Lead Programmer
insideo.com

[GD-General] Re: [GD-General][OT] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Toni <to...@4d...>]

Javier Arevalo wrote:

>Developing games in Spain has advantages and disadvantages:
>
> - Lower total cost for salaries (furnishing / equipment is probably
>similar).
>

For my experience in the university, most of wannabe game developers 
flee to DB programming, both for non good graphics topics and the little 
possibility to work in they industry and the low salaries (when i went 
to an international game company  to work as student worker (sorry, 
dunno the word in english) they offered me 3'60 euros/hour, and ubi is 
at 1 hour from my home, it was out of Barcelona). I have to say that at 
least that company, that i won't say the name, plays with the illusion 
of people for making games, and that's not serious.

> - Less competitors hiring potential candidates or grabbing your own people.
>
Well, i've found that people is not prepared, and due the situation of 
game industry in spain (big comanies are only in madrid and barcelona, 
you force people to move, and people doesn't like to move here)

> - Impossible to compete with offers from US/UK job opportunities.
>
Obviously, i would emmigrate if i didn't own my own company :)

> - Less candidates, and less experienced ones (designers & producers in
>particular).
>
As i've stated above, people here is educated to do "serious" software. 
I asked a professor once why we didin't get Real Time graphics in our 
university, the answer was that there wasn't demand. Seems that only 
universities and hospitals can do graphics here!, I'm talking only about 
graphics, i think CS carreer is good enough in other topics (at least my 
univ, can't talk for others).  I will talk about producers below.

> - Public perception of pursuing a videogames career is *even* worse than in
>other places.
>
Well, teenagers think it 's cool :) but that's all... but it's normal. 
This is a profession you have to do because you like it, no because you 
want a lot of money... you don't earn a lot of money here... the above 
international company payed 900 euros/month to game programmers, and... 
well... that's a crap to be honest.

> - Less opportunities to leverage game skills in another job makes the
>career less safe.
> - "National" tastes, cultural quirks, and licenses are not viable in the
>global market.
>by them as potentially more cumbersome.
> - Insufficient (and piracy-ridden) local market, it's tough for new studios
>to start small and grow from there.
>

ok, i will answer this 3 together. As Gonzo stated past March in 
barcelona, there's no national market here, due piracy. That's a big 
truth, but Javier, you can't expect everybody buys good games when they 
are so expensive, perhaps 50 euros doesn't seem high enough for some of 
you, but it is for the mean income of spanish people. So what they do? 
they pirate them, I don't say you have to low the games to 20-30 euros 
but, they're too expensive, and that's a fact. It's not a excuse, but if 
you want a game because is cool and you can't afford it (and most 
teenagers can't afford a game each 15 days) you will pirate it.
Obviosuly this degenerates in: "Why i have to buy a single game if i can 
download it with eMule or www.warezthelatestgamesforfree.com?" and 
that's the situation here. This ends in:
a) Producers won't invest in your game if it's not a world-wide targeted 
game, so little studios can't develop little products for national market
b) As you can only make international titles all the national tastes, as 
you say must be ripped out, for example one can't add national jokes or 
so to the game, even when would be funny to see Maria Teresa Campos in a 
video game ;)

> - Knowledge and practice with the English language is still very scarce.
>

We do our best, but english is hard, at least speaking  it without 
accent and correct pronounciation Javier, English have a lot of strange 
phonemes ;)

>That probably covers 90% of the issues.
>  
>
Yep, and i'm totally agree in 90% of the 90% ;)

Toni
Lead Programmer
insideo.com

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Developing games in Spain has advantages and disadvantages:
> 
> That probably covers 90% of the issues.
> 

<stir>

In the EU you can't work more than 37.5 hours, in Spain you have siestas. 

</stir>

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Toni wrote:

> Obviously publishers won't gave the same ammount of money to develop a
> game in spain as int USA... at least i don't think you can fool them
> that way :)
> So perhaps we will get a 1/15 fraction of the ammount of money you
> (USA) can get from a publisher...
> I don't know it for sure, as i don't work on games directly


Developing games in Spain has advantages and disadvantages:

 - Lower total cost for salaries (furnishing / equipment is probably
similar).
 - Very direct and close contact with local press.
 - Less competitors hiring potential candidates or grabbing your own people.
 - Impossible to compete with offers from US/UK job opportunities.
 - Little software product development overall, people who want to do it
have less options.
 - Less candidates, and less experienced ones (designers & producers in
particular).
 - Public perception of pursuing a videogames career is *even* worse than in
other places.
 - Less opportunities to leverage game skills in another job makes the
career less safe.
 - "National" tastes, cultural quirks, and licenses are not viable in the
global market.
 - Longer distance to big guys (publishers) and events. Process is perceived
by them as potentially more cumbersome.
 - Insufficient (and piracy-ridden) local market, it's tough for new studios
to start small and grow from there.
 - Knowledge and practice with the English language is still very scarce.

That probably covers 90% of the issues.

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Mickael P. <mpo...@ed...>]

>> Sure, but arithmetic still applies:
>> Expenses for 3 usa coders == expenses for 15 coders from Spain.
>> Actually, you do not need as much as 15 coders for writing
>> industrial-quality game engine in most of the cases,
>> so you may spend extra money to something more interesting - saving
>> blue whales, whatever :)
>> 
> Obviously publishers won't gave the same ammount of money to develop a
> game in spain as int USA... at least i don't think you can fool them
> that way :)
> So perhaps we will get a 1/15 fraction of the ammount of money you
> (USA) can get from a publisher...
> I don't know it for sure, as i don't work on games directly

Found the company in USA then, and make the job done by spanish dudes ;)

    Mike

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Toni <to...@4d...>]

Ruslan Shestopalyuk wrote:

>T> Well, you have to take into account the living prize, a person can live
>T> decently with 20k euro/year in spain (of course if he/she doesn't want 
>T> to buy an appartment ranging from 210k to 300k euros in mean), i supose 
>T> usa living cost must be higher than spain's one
>
>Sure, but arithmetic still applies:
>Expenses for 3 usa coders == expenses for 15 coders from Spain.
>Actually, you do not need as much as 15 coders for writing
>industrial-quality game engine in most of the cases,
>so you may spend extra money to something more interesting - saving
>blue whales, whatever :)
>
>  
>
Obviously publishers won't gave the same ammount of money to develop a 
game in spain as int USA... at least i don't think you can fool them 
that way :)
So perhaps we will get a 1/15 fraction of the ammount of money you (USA) 
can get from a publisher...
I don't know it for sure, as i don't work on games directly

Toni
Lead Programmer
insideo.com

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Ruslan S. <si...@gs...>]

T> Well, you have to take into account the living prize, a person can live
T> decently with 20k euro/year in spain (of course if he/she doesn't want 
T> to buy an appartment ranging from 210k to 300k euros in mean), i supose 
T> usa living cost must be higher than spain's one

Sure, but arithmetic still applies:
Expenses for 3 usa coders == expenses for 15 coders from Spain.
Actually, you do not need as much as 15 coders for writing
industrial-quality game engine in most of the cases,
so you may spend extra money to something more interesting - saving
blue whales, whatever :)

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Toni <to...@4d...>]

Ruslan Shestopalyuk wrote:

>jz> Unless you work in China, where programmer salaries are about $8k a
>jz> year:-)
>
>Or in Ukraine where its about 5k.
>
>  
>
Well, you have to take into account the living prize, a person can live 
decently with 20k euro/year in spain (of course if he/she doesn't want 
to buy an appartment ranging from 210k to 300k euros in mean), i supose 
usa living cost must be higher than spain's one

Toni
Lead Programmer
insideo.com

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Ruslan S. <si...@gs...>]

jz> Unless you work in China, where programmer salaries are about $8k a
jz> year:-)

Or in Ukraine where its about 5k.

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Neil S. <ne...@r0...>]

>
> Ouch.
>

;)

> Well, I accept all of the above, I never asked you to say "We once used
> UbahEngine and it sucks, never use it". But by saying "In our experiance
> uber engine, which we used 2 years ago, a few problems arised which made
> buying the engine not worthwhile. The problems were foo and bar but might
> have improved, as we gave the vendor a very detailed explination on what
we
> didn't like" could possibly help someone in the future.

I'm not completely against naming the engine, but I didn't want to do so in
my original comment because I wasn't trying to make a point about that
engine at that time (we were talking about cost), and any point I would make
about it would have to have all the necessary context to make it a fair
comment.

> I'm sorry you took it so badly, I didn't intend that. I just gave my
> opinion, which is valid. For example when you guys picked that engine,
> wouldn't you have been happy if someone with experiance with that engine
had
> pointed out some of said flaws ?

Well, I didn't take it _that_ badly, but you did effectively accuse me of
cheating everyone here out of something, which I don't think was very fair.
A more gentle approach wouldn't have hurt.

As for when we picked the engine, well, I wasn't there when it was bought,
and my heart sunk after looking at it for a few hours because I could
already see some of the problems we would have with it. But yes, I would
have been happy if someone had told the guys who did choose it about the
flaws before they parted with the cash.

- Neil.

Re: [GD-General] OT - Game Development Professionals Network

[<phi...@pl...>]

> Right now, it's somewhat small, since I've just created it;

OK, so you've spammed a number of working game development communities, to
advertise a new game development community, of which you're the controller,
and likely only member. Way to make friends and influence people.

Yeesh,
Phil

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[jason z. <ja...@vi...>]
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RE: [GD-General] OT - Game Development Professionals Network

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Is there a reason you felt that you needed to cross post that email to every
single game's related mailing list ? 

This is probably the only one of those lists that your post isn't offtopic.

A good way to tell if you should post something or not is if you feel the
need to put "OT" at the start of the subject, it's better that you don't
post it.

Regards, Gareth "The Police it seems" Lewin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nalin Savara [mailto:ns...@vs...]
> Sent: 05 June 2003 09:05
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-General] OT - Game Development Professionals Network
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This is Nalin Savara here.
> 
> I"ve just created a network on Ryze.com (see: 
> http://www.ryze.com ) which is
> a premier business network site that's called "GameDevPros" 
> or the "Game
> Development Professionals Network" to serve as an online 
> meeting place for
> game development professionals of all backgrounds to network, meet and
> discuss and exchange ideas and opportunities and support each other in
> meeting challenges.
> 
> Right now, it's somewhat small, since I've just created it; but your
> participation I guess is the only thing it's waiting for.
> 
> Do check it out and become part of it.
> 
> This network has game designers, programmers, digital 
> artists, animators,
> producers, audio engineers, and management & marketing specialists as
> members. This is where experts feed their minds with ideas, 
> discussions and
> contacts and discuss new gaming methods, technologies and 
> business models.
> 
> Regards,
> Nalin Savara
> CEO and Technical Director,
> Darksun Technologies Pvt Ltd.
> http://www.darksuntech.com
> ns...@da...
> 
> Ph: +91-9811109407
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by:  Etnus, makers of 
> TotalView, The best
> thread debugger on the planet. Designed with thread debugging features
> you've never dreamed of, try TotalView 6 free at www.etnus.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
> 

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Well, some of us don't like to shoot our mouths off before 
> thinking about
> it. 

Ouch.

> It would not be prudent of me to name said engine here because:
> 
> a) We were not talking about the shortcomings of particular engines.
> b) Our experience with this engine is just that: our 
> experience. It may have
> proven more than suitable for other people's projects.
> c) Our experience of this engine took place over two years 
> ago, and it may
> have dramatically improved in those areas in which we found 
> it to be lacking
> (for our purposes). Naming it at this stage would be very 
> unfair to the
> engine vendor.

Well, I accept all of the above, I never asked you to say "We once used
UbahEngine and it sucks, never use it". But by saying "In our experiance
uber engine, which we used 2 years ago, a few problems arised which made
buying the engine not worthwhile. The problems were foo and bar but might
have improved, as we gave the vendor a very detailed explination on what we
didn't like" could possibly help someone in the future.

Again, that's just my opinion, please take it with a bag of salt.

> So please don't tell me who I am and am not doing a disservice to.

I'm sorry you took it so badly, I didn't intend that. I just gave my
opinion, which is valid. For example when you guys picked that engine,
wouldn't you have been happy if someone with experiance with that engine had
pointed out some of said flaws ? 

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Or it makes your first game cheaper, quicker, and finished -- 
> thereby making your second (and subsequent) games /possible./

Good to know I'm not the only one with that opinion

> 
> A maxim from a guy who has tried it both ways:  "Never 
> attempt to create new technology for your first first-person 
> title. License for title one while building tech for title two."
> 
> (http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=magicm)

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Unless you work in Spain, where programmer salaries are only 
> about $20k a
> year.

Fair enough :)

[GD-General] OT - Game Development Professionals Network

[Nalin S. <ns...@vs...>]

Hi,

This is Nalin Savara here.

I"ve just created a network on Ryze.com (see: http://www.ryze.com ) which is
a premier business network site that's called "GameDevPros" or the "Game
Development Professionals Network" to serve as an online meeting place for
game development professionals of all backgrounds to network, meet and
discuss and exchange ideas and opportunities and support each other in
meeting challenges.

Right now, it's somewhat small, since I've just created it; but your
participation I guess is the only thing it's waiting for.

Do check it out and become part of it.

This network has game designers, programmers, digital artists, animators,
producers, audio engineers, and management & marketing specialists as
members. This is where experts feed their minds with ideas, discussions and
contacts and discuss new gaming methods, technologies and business models.

Regards,
Nalin Savara
CEO and Technical Director,
Darksun Technologies Pvt Ltd.
http://www.darksuntech.com
ns...@da...

Ph: +91-9811109407

RE: Using middleware (RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Paul R. <pa...@so...>]

> Me too, and the main reason we had to ditch it completely was because we
> couldn't use just the functionality we wanted from it and do the other
bits
> ourselves. With the middleware we are starting to see now, this seems to
be
> less of a problem.

Which swings back to the original topic (sort of). The architecture of the
engine itself is a huge factor to consider for price. Our middleware is
incredibly monolithic with an "all or nothing" approach. It has super high
level abstraction to support several different platforms with super tight
coupling to it's subsystems' interfaces. Along with very little flexibility
for customization. For a PS2 only game that will never ship on another
platform, this is not good. Especially when the interfaces are most
obviously catering to a "von Neumann" machine, it's really bad news. (Don't
ask me, I wasn't working here when they bought it.)

We have a lot of tech on top of the middleware. But it's mostly hacks to get
it to do what we want it to do. This is the last project we'll use it on and
a lot of our technology will be rendered useless. Aside from my tinkering,
we don't have an in house effort to build an engine from scratch (that
government idea sounds interesting...). So now we're likely going to dive
into a new middleware solution. But this time we're battle scarred, seasoned
shoppers. So they'll have to show they're fancy demos to some other doe-eyed
n00bs. :op

Just be aware that if the engine supports multiple platforms, there's a high
probability you'll want to get to the guts and optimize for your specific
game (that's right) on each specific platform. So easy paths to
customization is a factor as well. Like Neil mentioned, any middleware
that's been around the block and used by more than a handful of teams, will
likely have these features by now.

// Paul Reynolds
// Lead Programmer

// ICQ:   102704602
// AIM:   pbreynolds
// Yahoo: reynoldspaul

Re: Using middleware (RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Neil S. <ne...@r0...>]

> Another thing to consider is what's adding value to your studio/business.
If
> you only ever use everyone else's technology and IP, you won't have any
> assets of substantial value. Other than your human resources which aren't
> really OWNED by the company, although it seems that way sometimes ;o).
> Whether you're looking for new contracts, to be acquired, or venture
> capital, you have to provide something of value to the people giving you
> money.

I think the business debate on this issue is a pretty grey area, and there
are as many business reasons for buying an engine as there are for writing
your own.

Publishers will, on one hand, see the use of an established, bought engine
as a risk minimisation and, on the other hand, see the lack of proprietary
technology as a potential weakness in the developer, both of which are
unfounded because it is possible to buy an inappropriate engine and it is
certainly possible to build a great game using just the technologies
provided by bought engines.

And of course, there's the cost aspect which has already been discussed. One
thing that wasn't mentioned is that it is possible for developers to obtain
govenment R&D grants for engine development, which may offset some of the
cost. This, of course, wouldn't be available for making engine purchases. ;)

But there are also many technical reasons that should be considered when
making a choice. If a developer has a limited supply of highly technical
people, but lots of great ideas for their game, they may have no choice but
to buy in technology, and could easily thrive in this manner. For a
developer with a good supply of 'engine gurus', there are many benefits to
writing their own stuff, such as having the agility to adopt new techniques
without having to wait for an engine vendor to provide similar features,
which every other developer using that engine would then have access to.
Graphics, in particular, is far from a 'solved problem', and a clever
developer can make their mark by using techniques that have not (or will
not) hit the mainstream yet.

> Besides the reduced labor costs (which is extremely debatable), wisely
> chosen middleware can actually add value to your company. Perhaps because
> you build your technology on top off the middleware or create a highly
tuned
> branch of the middleware's source. If you pick a popular middleware (ie:
> Renderware), just being knowledgeable and experienced with the software is
> valuable.

Yep, I think this is true, and when you add it to the risk-minimisation I
mentioned earlier, buying an established engine and becoming familiar with
it can look very good to publishers. Building technology on top of
middleware is also a good approach, because you can get the best of both
worlds. I think the general trend in middleware these days is to provide
components that you can use as needed, rather than the 'this is a game
engine and you must work the way it does' approach, which means you can
provide your own (or someone else's) solutions to areas where your
middleware falls short.

> I've only been heavily exposed to one particular middleware package and I
> have not had very positive experiences as a result. But, YMMV depending on
> the software and what your goals are.

Me too, and the main reason we had to ditch it completely was because we
couldn't use just the functionality we wanted from it and do the other bits
ourselves. With the middleware we are starting to see now, this seems to be
less of a problem.

- Neil.

Using middleware (RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Paul R. <pa...@so...>]

All great points. Seems like this thread has drifted into the topic of
middleware versus in house tech... 

Another thing to consider is what's adding value to your studio/business. If
you only ever use everyone else's technology and IP, you won't have any
assets of substantial value. Other than your human resources which aren't
really OWNED by the company, although it seems that way sometimes ;o).
Whether you're looking for new contracts, to be acquired, or venture
capital, you have to provide something of value to the people giving you
money. 

Besides the reduced labor costs (which is extremely debatable), wisely
chosen middleware can actually add value to your company. Perhaps because
you build your technology on top off the middleware or create a highly tuned
branch of the middleware's source. If you pick a popular middleware (ie:
Renderware), just being knowledgeable and experienced with the software is
valuable.

I've only been heavily exposed to one particular middleware package and I
have not had very positive experiences as a result. But, YMMV depending on
the software and what your goals are.


// Paul Reynolds
// Lead Programmer

// ICQ:   102704602
// AIM:   pbreynolds
// Yahoo: reynoldspaul


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Jay Woodward
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 3:22 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines


Or it makes your first game cheaper, quicker, and finished -- thereby making
your second (and subsequent) games /possible./

A maxim from a guy who has tried it both ways:  "Never attempt to create new
technology for your first first-person title. License for title one while
building tech for title two."

(http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=magicm)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Forsyth [mailto:to...@mu...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 4:30 AM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines
> 
> 
> My tuppence:
> 
> Buying an engine makes your first game cheaper & quicker, and 
> your second (and subsequent) games more expensive.
> 
> 
> Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.
> 
> This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> and does not in any way imply existence of the author. 


-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:  Etnus, makers of TotalView, The best
thread debugger on the planet. Designed with thread debugging features
you've never dreamed of, try TotalView 6 free at www.etnus.com.
_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-general mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
Archives:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU7

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Jay W. <woo...@Ro...>]

Or it makes your first game cheaper, quicker, and finished -- thereby =
making your second (and subsequent) games /possible./

A maxim from a guy who has tried it both ways:  "Never attempt to create =
new technology for your first first-person title. License for title one =
while building tech for title two."

(http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=3Dmagicm)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Forsyth [mailto:to...@mu...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 4:30 AM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines
>=20
>=20
> My tuppence:
>=20
> Buying an engine makes your first game cheaper & quicker, and=20
> your second (and subsequent) games more expensive.
>=20
>=20
> Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.
>=20
> This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> and does not in any way imply existence of the author.=20

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[<phi...@pl...>]

> Remember that a worker costs a lot more than their gross salary so that
is a very low estimate.

Actually I was sort of thinking about people like CroTeam on that one (and
in a fairly flippant manner too, no offence intended), but I'm sure it's
applicable to unsigned bedroom teams as well. You've got to have a fairly
experienced team to make good use of a third-party engine. Plus the fixed
costs involved tend to mean you recquire / expect a certain level of
success / sales from your first title.

To be fair, if I had 6 months to knock out a 3rd or 1st person, action-game
license with a newly formed team of professionals, I'd use a 3rd party
engine in a shot. Doubly so if I was working on contract, or otherwise,
expected to move on after completion (like if I found myself working for
someone with a reputation for laying off teams straight after gold-master).

However, given the same team, and two years to create a new studio with a
long term dedication to original titles, I'd have to weigh my options more
carefully. For example: Personally speaking, I might license a good physics
engine, as I find that stuff about as fun as pulling my own teeth, but if
one of the team had physics experience, and was still enthusiastic about
it, and I thought they could carry it, I'd probably keep it in house.

Cheers,
Phil