gamedevlists-general — List for discussing general game development issues

Re: [GD-General] Spy on windows 2k &Xp

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Vincent DUVERNET wrote:
> But how determine is DLL already unloaded ?

I'm not sure if you really need to know that previously, because I don't
understand the nature of the task you're trying to achieve. Any process can
load a DLL regardless whether it's already loaded. These two pieces from
MSDN might shed more light into your problem.

"Each process maintains a reference count for each loaded library module.
This reference count is incremented each time LoadLibrary is called and is
decremented each time FreeLibrary is called."
-------
"The GetModuleHandle function returns a handle to a mapped module without
incrementing its reference count. Therefore, use care when passing the
handle to the FreeLibrary function, because doing so can cause a DLL module
to be unmapped prematurely."

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

[GD-General] Spy on windows 2k &Xp

[Vincent D. <sco...@ho...>]

This french article :
http://www.generation-nt.com/index.php?cat=astuces&id=38

talks about integrated spy in windows 2000 & Xp which take your Microsoft ID
& Hardware ID through regwizc.dll.
The command :
regsvr32.exe -u c:\windows\system32\regwizc.dll
will unload from system the DLL & spy.
Source code to unload will looks like :

OleInitialize(NULL);
HINSTANCE hLib = ::LoadLibraryEx (oTmp.c_str (), NULL,
LOAD_WITH_ALTERED_SEARCH_PATH);
if (hLib)
{
    HRESULT (STDAPICALLTYPE * lpDllEntryPoint)(void);
    (FARPROC&)lpDllEntryPoint = GetProcAddress(hLib, "DllUnregisterServer");
    if (lpDllEntryPoint)
    {
        if (FAILED((*lpDllEntryPoint)()))
        {
            // Error
        }
        else
        {
            // Ok
        }
     }
    FreeLibrary(hLib);
    OleUninitialize();
}

But how determine is DLL already unloaded ?

Thanks

Vincent.

Re: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[<cas...@ya...>]

Colin Fahey wrote:
> Okay, I downloaded discreet's "VC7 memory wrapper for 3ds max 5.1"
> and looked at it.
>
> So, if I wanted to eliminate dependency on MSVCR70.DLL and MSVCP70.DLL
> would I have to wrap all C runtime functions, compile with VC6 in to a
> DLL, and then only use my wrapped functions?
>
> That seems like a lot of work.  Would it also be a speed hit
> (indirect function calls)?

No, you only have to wrap the functions that do memory allocations, like
strdup. The discreet documentations says it's strcpy, but I belive that's a
bug... But now that I think about it, that doesn't fix your problem, because
you still have to provide msvcrt70.dll :-P


> There isn't, say, a compiler switch, like:  /vc6  ?  :-)

Note, that the only problem is just that vc7 is linking with a different
runtime library. What you can do, is to put MSVCRT70.LIB in the ignored
list, and add msvc6's MSVCRT.LIB to the library list. That's a bit dirty,
but it 'might' work. I haven't tried that myself, though.


Ignacio Castaño
cas...@ya...

Re: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[Colin F. <cp...@ea...>]

Okay, before I get all excited, I want to double-check.

Is my only option to statically link?  Or is there also
the option of dynamically linking to the VC6 runtime
libraries (thus VC6 DLLs)?

As you say, shipping the DLLs isn't so bad...

--- Colin


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stefan Boberg" <ste...@te...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 9:18 AM
Subject: RE: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL


> Is there any way within MSVC++ .NET to change settings so that
> the dependency on 7.0 generation DLLs is eliminated?

   Yes. Use the /ML and /MLd, or /MT and /MTd code generation options (for
release and debug builds, respectively). You can change this in the IDE by
using the Project Properties (right-click on the solution explorer) -> C/C++
-> Code Generation -> Runtime Library option.

   If you use the statically linked runtime, your app will only depend on
standard system DLL's.

   Alternatively, just ship your app with the runtime DLL's in the same
folder as the exe. They are redistributable so there's no need to point
users to some MS download location.

Cheers,
Stef! :)
--
Stefan Boberg, R&D Manager - Team17 Software Ltd.
bo...@te...




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Re: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[Colin F. <cp...@ea...>]

Okay, I downloaded discreet's "VC7 memory wrapper for 3ds max 5.1"
and looked at it.

So, if I wanted to eliminate dependency on MSVCR70.DLL and MSVCP70.DLL
would I have to wrap all C runtime functions, compile with VC6 in to a
DLL, and then only use my wrapped functions?

That seems like a lot of work.  Would it also be a speed hit
(indirect function calls)?

There isn't, say, a compiler switch, like:  /vc6  ?  :-)

Can I trick things by messing with  _MSC_VER  ?

Right now it's looking like shipping the two DLLs in
the application directory is the best option, but if there is
a way slightly more strightforward than the header file
option, then perhaps it will be worthwhile.

--- Colin

RE: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[Stefan B. <ste...@te...>]

> Is there any way within MSVC++ .NET to change settings so that
> the dependency on 7.0 generation DLLs is eliminated?

   Yes. Use the /ML and /MLd, or /MT and /MTd code generation options =
(for
release and debug builds, respectively). You can change this in the IDE =
by
using the Project Properties (right-click on the solution explorer) -> =
C/C++
-> Code Generation -> Runtime Library option.

   If you use the statically linked runtime, your app will only depend =
on
standard system DLL's.

   Alternatively, just ship your app with the runtime DLL's in the same
folder as the exe. They are redistributable so there's no need to point
users to some MS download location.

Cheers,
Stef! :)
--
Stefan Boberg, R&D Manager - Team17 Software Ltd.
bo...@te...

RE: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[Gareth W. <gar...@ro...>]

http://sparks.discreet.com/news/index.cfm?f=3D2&step=3D2&news_id=3D88

"To accommodate for development of 3ds max 5.1 plug-ins using the VC7 =
development environment, Discreet has developed a system to address the =
incompatibility between the VC7 memory subsystem and 3ds max, which is =
VC6 native.=20

Developers can employ this solution by including the MAX_Mem.h header =
(download below) in their plug-in project, which serves as a replacement =
for malloc.h, new.h and crtdbg.h. The result is to redirect memory =
allocation and de-allocation functions into equivalents implemented in =
the 3ds max core, operating on a VC6 native heap."

----------------------------------
BSc (Hons) Gareth White
senior programmer

ROCKSTAR VIENNA
www.rockstarvienna.com

*** Please be aware that all content of this email ***
*** plus its attachments are strictly confidential ***


-----Original Message-----
From: Ignacio Casta=F1o [mailto:cas...@ya...]=20
Sent: Sonntag, 22. Juni 2003 16:04
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL


Colin Fahey wrote:
> (A) Can I compile with MSVC7.0 and yet only require
>      users to have MSVC6.0 DLLs?

3dsmax dlls are built using msvc6. Discreet provides a memory wrapper =
for msvc7. Perhaps you should be able to do something similar. I think =
that they have a library built with msvc6, that exports memory =
allocation and deallocation functions and replace the new and delete =
operators with the functions provided by that library.


Ignacio Casta=F1o
cas...@ya...




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Re: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[<cas...@ya...>]

Colin Fahey wrote:
> (A) Can I compile with MSVC7.0 and yet only require
>      users to have MSVC6.0 DLLs?

3dsmax dlls are built using msvc6. Discreet provides a memory wrapper for
msvc7. Perhaps you should be able to do something similar. I think that they
have a library built with msvc6, that exports memory allocation and
deallocation functions and replace the new and delete operators with the
functions provided by that library.


Ignacio Castaño
cas...@ya...

Re: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[Colin F. <cp...@ea...>]

Okay, I did more Google searching and I have come
to the following conclusions:

(1) Under Windows 98 you can simply copy the
    following two files:

      (a) MSVCR70.DLL   (336 KB)
      (b) MSVCP70.DLL   (476 KB)

    to the following directory:

       C:\windows\system

    and the problem should be solved.

    NOTE:  There are a few other DLLs
    that might be required for MFC:

      (c) MFC70.DLL
      (d) MFC70U.DLL

    (I do not have these files installed 
     under Windows 98, and my non-MFC app
     compiled under MSVC7.0 works fine.)

    and I noticed the following mystery-DLL
    on my WIndows 98 machine, but apparently
    this file is not required for my particular
    application:

       (e) MSVCI70.DLL  (54 KB)



(2) Under Windows 2000, files (a) and (b) can be
    placed in the folowing location:

           c:\winnt\system32

    (NOTE: "system32", not "system" as with Win 98.)



(3) Apparently, an alternative to "installing" the DLLs
    in the offcial locations is simply putting the DLLs
    in the directory containing your application.
    Thus, you know exactly what DLL version you are
    getting.  There is no DLL slamming going on.
    The disadvantages include:

        * Redundancy : DLL may exist on the system
        * Missing upgrades and bug fixes in official DLL        


(4) Lots of developers instruct users to download
    these DLLs from their web sites to use their
    applications.

    I'm not saying this make is "right" to ask users
    to download (potentially old, potentially hacked,
    potentially virus-invested) DLLs from one's web
    site.  Even if developers directed users to the
    Microsoft web site to download these DLLs, I'm
    not sure it would be the "right" thing to do --
    especially if Microsoft required visitors to 
    get a Microsoft Passport to download those DLLs!
    (Let us hope that we won't one day need Microsoft
     Passports to literally travel.  "You papers, please!")


Anyhow, I am still interested in knowing the two things
mentioned in my previous post:

(A) Can I compile with MSVC7.0 and yet only require 
     users to have MSVC6.0 DLLs?

    If this is insane (lots of settings changes, etc)
    then I will just give up on the idea.

(B) What is the best way to make one's application work
    on systems that may not have the required DLLs?

    * Ship local version in application directory?
    * Direct user to a Microsoft link?
    * Do your own detection of whether or not the DLL is 
        present in the system directory, and then ask the
        user if he or she wants to install if the DLL is
        NOT already present?

Okay, I'm sure all of these questions expose me as an
amateur novice nOOb Hax0r wannabe hopeful grasshopper.
When will I B 1337 ?!  ROTFL! LOL!  ::^)   

--- Colin

Re: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[Adrian C. <ce...@ce...>]

You could just link statically to the MSVC libraries. But you'd be way
better off just distributing the DLLs too. You just have to have them in the
same dir where your executable resides.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Fahey" <cp...@ea...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:13 AM
Subject: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL


>
> I compiled a plain C++ application using Microsoft Visual
> C++ .NET.  I sent the executable to someone, and the person
> said that the program failed to execute because the DLL
> "MSVCP70.DLL" was not found on their system.
>
> Is there any way within MSVC++ .NET to change settings so that
> the dependency on 7.0 generation DLLs is eliminated?
>
> This project used to be an MSVC++ 6.0 project.  The only change
> I made after switching to MSVC++ 7.0 was adding plain C++
> source files.  I don't use "managed memory" or other new
> language extensions.  I am not using .NET stuff in any way.
>
> It would be painful to switch back to MSVC++ 6.0 just because
> the project has a hundred source files in a nice directory
> hierarchy that is reflected in the source view tree control.
> (I had to write a program to generate the XML project file;
> I wasn't about to do all the GUI clicking by hand!  If I
> went back to VC6, I'd have to write another program to
> form the project file.  Easy, but a bit distracting.)
>
> I know that people can easily acquire these 7.0 DLLs, but if
> someone downloads my program, and it fails to execute due to
> missing these DLLs, I have already failed as a programmer.
> I refuse to consider shipping DLLs.  I don't know how installing
> DLLs works these days, but I hope it's more complicated than
> copying to C:\Windows\System or C:\winnt\system32 or whatever.
> If RealNetworks or Jupiter Co. can clobber DLLs that easily,
> then people are really screwed.
>
> Here are my questions:
>
> (1) Can I continue to use MSVC++ 7.0 and yet compile executables
>   that do not require 7.0 generation DLLs?  (For example, the
>   executable could use 6.0 generation DLLs.)
>
> (2) Okay, if I decide that going back to MSVC++ 6.0 is too
>     painful, then what is the bast way to allow end-users to
>     install the required DLLs?
>
>     (I think I may have done this on my Windows 98 machine,
>     because I tested the program there and it did not complain
>     about needing the 7.0 DLLs...  But I forgot the steps.)
>
> Perhaps this isn't "DLL Hell" in the strictest sense of the term,
> but it does feel a little warm!
>
> --- Colin
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>

[GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[Colin F. <cp...@ea...>]

I compiled a plain C++ application using Microsoft Visual
C++ .NET.  I sent the executable to someone, and the person
said that the program failed to execute because the DLL
"MSVCP70.DLL" was not found on their system.

Is there any way within MSVC++ .NET to change settings so that
the dependency on 7.0 generation DLLs is eliminated?

This project used to be an MSVC++ 6.0 project.  The only change
I made after switching to MSVC++ 7.0 was adding plain C++
source files.  I don't use "managed memory" or other new 
language extensions.  I am not using .NET stuff in any way.

It would be painful to switch back to MSVC++ 6.0 just because
the project has a hundred source files in a nice directory
hierarchy that is reflected in the source view tree control.
(I had to write a program to generate the XML project file;
I wasn't about to do all the GUI clicking by hand!  If I 
went back to VC6, I'd have to write another program to 
form the project file.  Easy, but a bit distracting.)

I know that people can easily acquire these 7.0 DLLs, but if
someone downloads my program, and it fails to execute due to
missing these DLLs, I have already failed as a programmer.
I refuse to consider shipping DLLs.  I don't know how installing
DLLs works these days, but I hope it's more complicated than
copying to C:\Windows\System or C:\winnt\system32 or whatever.
If RealNetworks or Jupiter Co. can clobber DLLs that easily,
then people are really screwed.

Here are my questions:

(1) Can I continue to use MSVC++ 7.0 and yet compile executables
  that do not require 7.0 generation DLLs?  (For example, the
  executable could use 6.0 generation DLLs.)

(2) Okay, if I decide that going back to MSVC++ 6.0 is too
    painful, then what is the bast way to allow end-users to
    install the required DLLs?

    (I think I may have done this on my Windows 98 machine,
    because I tested the program there and it did not complain
    about needing the 7.0 DLLs...  But I forgot the steps.)

Perhaps this isn't "DLL Hell" in the strictest sense of the term,
but it does feel a little warm!

--- Colin

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Paul R. <pa...@so...>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Paul Reynolds
> Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 11:42 AM
>
>[...snip..]
>
> If you're truly serious, I believe there are professionals 
> out there that
> you can hire as your agent that will help you find contracts 
> for your studio
> or shop around your idea (be prepared to have a fairly 
> complete demo if
> you're a new studio). After you contact a lawyer first. :o)
> 

Gamasutra has a couple of new articles about "Game Agents":
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20030616/karch_01.shtml
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20030618/pfeifer_01.shtml

[GD-General] Two monitors? Two computers!

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

I really *love* http://synergy2.sf.net/ - so much that I'll rave about it 
here :-)

I've come across this cool piece of software a couple of weeks ago that lets 
you share the mouse pointer, keyboard and clipboard between two and more 
machines, no matter what OS they run.

To clarify that a bit: I have a Linux and a Windows PC under my desk, each 
with its own monitor - Windows left, Linux right. When the mouse leaves the 
windows machine's screen towards the right, it enters the Linux screen from 
the left, and vice versa - it's like dual monitors, but with a different 
machine on each. And the keyboard follows the mouse to the other machine, so 
no more second keyboard&mouse on my desk, more space for paper. And when I 
plug in the notebook, it appears as a screen to the left of the windows box :-)

In addition, the clipboard can be shared. I can grab a URL from Internet 
Explorer, and paste it into my Linux shell to do a wget, grab some code from 
a mail in Mozilla and paste it into an editor window on the other machine. 
Very, very nifty.

Enno.

[GD-General] Re: Animaton libraries

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

Marc Fascia wrote:

> hi,
> 
> i came across this link :
> http://www.mysticgd.com/projects/liquidmotion/index.html
> 
> The library seemes to be full featured but i don't know if it's PS2 friendly

 From their pages, the IK solvers aren't implemented yet, but planned for 
the next release. Support for consoles is planned (that part of it is always 
easy ;-)), but as of now, there's none.

But apart from that LM looks quite nice, and I think we should look into it. 
I've forwarded the link internally. Thanks!

Enno.

[GD-General] Re: Animaton libraries

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

Troy Gilbert wrote:

> Not sure if Casey follows this list (author of Granny), but it is definitely
> usable on the various consoles. We certainly have several customers using it
> as a high-level package ontop of our low-level runtime.

We just talked to RAD, and they said that PS2 support is not a problem for 
GRanny, and will not be for Miles after July. Which is perfect for us :-)

Enno

RE: [GD-General] Animaton libraries

[Troy G. <Tr...@cs...>]

Not sure if Casey follows this list (author of Granny), but it is definitely
usable on the various consoles. We certainly have several customers using it
as a high-level package ontop of our low-level runtime.

I think the reason the PS2 support is not mentioned is because at one time
they were not official PS2 middleware providers. What they do provide,
though, is the source code which can be trivially recompiled for the PS2. Of
course, that only works for the high-level animation authoring -- if you are
wanting to use Granny for it's actual character rendering (mesh submission
and skinning on PC/Xbox) then that's not available currently, AFAIK.

Of course, I might be speaking out of line... I hope Casey is around to
correct me! ;)

Personally, I like Granny a whole lot and recommend it often to our
customers.

Troy
Developer Relations
Criterion Software
www.csl.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Enno Rehling [mailto:en...@de...]
> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 7:47 AM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-General] Animaton libraries
> 
> 
> We've looked at Granny in the past, but done our animation 
> code inhouse 
> nevertheless. Now we're evaluating 3rd party animation 
> libraries again, and 
> I'm wondering if anyone can recommend something. We're 
> interested in a 
> product that has inverse kinematics.
> 
> We liked Granny from their specs, but it doesn't seem to run 
> on PS2, bummer.
> 
> Enno.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> 

RE: [GD-General] Animaton libraries

[Anders N. <br...@ho...>]

Liquide Motion:

From http://www.mysticgd.com/projects/liquidmotion/projectstatus.html one
can read that there is yet no PS2-support and no IK-solvers yet (although
they will be included in the next version). Also no GC/MAC/XBOX-support yet.
I haven't looked at Granny so I don't know how much features it got atm,
sure LM will get all the features eventually though...

Perhaps one could start using it though and just hope that PS2 version etc.
will be released before your product needs to be finished (or the ps2-port),
seems to be a bit of gamble though ;)

Anders Nilsson
http://www.outbreak.nu

RE: [GD-General] Animaton libraries

[Marc F. <ma...@ma...>]

hi,

i came across this link :
http://www.mysticgd.com/projects/liquidmotion/index.html

The library seemes to be full featured but i don't know if it's PS2 friendly
:)

-Marc

-----Message d'origine-----
De : gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]De la part de
Enno Rehling
Envoye : vendredi 13 juin 2003 14:47
A : gam...@li...
Objet : [GD-General] Animaton libraries


We've looked at Granny in the past, but done our animation code inhouse
nevertheless. Now we're evaluating 3rd party animation libraries again, and
I'm wondering if anyone can recommend something. We're interested in a
product that has inverse kinematics.

We liked Granny from their specs, but it doesn't seem to run on PS2, bummer.

Enno.




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Great deals on office technology -- on eBay now! Click here:
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[GD-General] Animaton libraries

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

We've looked at Granny in the past, but done our animation code inhouse 
nevertheless. Now we're evaluating 3rd party animation libraries again, and 
I'm wondering if anyone can recommend something. We're interested in a 
product that has inverse kinematics.

We liked Granny from their specs, but it doesn't seem to run on PS2, bummer.

Enno.

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Rob K. <who...@at...>]

Don't worry - we were able to translate with babelfish.  Give Lisa our
love too. (I think it translated that right...)

I will not buy this...

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...] On Behalf Of
Emmanuel Astier
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 5:09 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of
well-known 3D engines)


OOOOOOpppsss !!

Sorry, that was obviously a personnal answer...

Damned 'answer to' mode that keep on changing !

Emmanuel




 --- Emmanuel Astier <e_a...@ya...> a =E9crit=A0: >
Mais je vous connais, vous !!
>=20
> Tu ne dis pas combien de Horse Race vous avez
> vendu...
>=20
> Et ca se passe bien, la vie ?
>=20
> Bon il est un peu tard, je vais me coucher,
> j'essayerais de te mailer ou de t'appeler plus
> tard...
>=20
> Gros bisous a Lisa et a toi,
>=20
> Manu
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  --- mdr...@cy... a =E9crit=A0: > I
> think
> that many times you hear about studios in
> > this case (milestones
> > payment) but that's for games being published by
> big
> > publishers.
> >=20
> > I'd like to give a different sound of bells. The
> > company I'm working for
> > has shipped three games.
> >=20
> > The first game was started in april 2000 and
> shipped
> > in June 2001. The
> > project cost was about 500k=80, so that that's not
> > insane. The game was a
> > cycling management game, with interative races.
> You
> > can call it niche
> > market, but it sold more than 100 000 units, just
> in
> > Europe. We had
> > agents, we didn't find a global publisher, so the
> > project was self-funded.
> > We had some royalties advances two months before
> the
> > game shipped, and we
> > signed nearly a contract for every country in
> > Europe. So the game sold
> > well in Europe ( including a Top3 on PC in France)
> > and didn't find a
> > publisher in USA. The royalties rate was about 4-5
> > to 10=80 per game sold
> > (and it was sold cheaper than other games), which
> is
> > quite high, but you
> > must take into account that it's a PC game (no
> > royalties for console
> > makers) and it was sell funded so there was no
> risk
> > for our publishers.
> >=20
> > The second game was the sequel to the first. It
> was
> > done during July 2001/
> > June 2002. No global publisher found, still it
> sold
> > more than 100.000
> > units. In fact we had propositions, among others
> > from a one of the two big
> > french publishers : 100 k=80 of advance + 5=80 per
> copy
> > + we still
> > self-finance till completition. Not really
> > appealing... So, the game was
> > shipped by the same small publishers.
> >=20
> > The third game was a horse racing/management game.
> > This sport is very
> > popular in UK / France. The game costed 400k=80 to
> > make, by another team as
> > the cycling games, during Dec 2001 / Dec 2002. The
> > best deal we found was,
> > 3 months before completition, 300k=80 for
> > UK+Germany+France+Benelux in
> > advance ( 30 000 copies with 10=80 per copy). We
> > worked with other
> > publishers for the other countries. The main
> > publisher was not very
> > active, so with those 4 countries we expect to
> sell
> > just a few more copies
> > than 30 000. Other countries did quite well
> > considering the sport is not
> > very popular, and with our previous two games we
> had
> > good contracts, up to
> > 12-14=80 per copy. So the game, who shipped in
> europe,
> > and soon in USA, has
> > made so far about 525k=80 in royalties.
> >=20
> > We now have 3 games in developpment (2 sports
> > managers, one innovative
> > strategy game), and for the two sport games, we
> > don't even try to find a
> > big publisher. Especially if you consider that our
> > partners made some good
> > mareketing in their own countries, and we have
> good
> > delas with them.
> >=20
> > My conclusion is that you can make interessant
> > games, deliver them on
> > time, have a proven quality track and sell many
> > copies, you won't
> > necessarly find a publisher that will pay you to
> > make your game. And the
> > milestone system is more targeted at middle to big products,=20
> > especially console games. For a game done by 5 people ( we
> are
> > 6-8 per project), it's
> > really difficult to find that scheme of agreement
> :
> > your game is not big
> > enough for a big publisher...
> >=20
> >=20
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De :
> > gam...@li...
> >
>
[mailto:gam...@li...]
> > De la part de
> > Paul Reynolds
> > Envoy=E9 : samedi 7 juin 2003 02:42
> > =C0 : gam...@li...
> > Objet : RE: Publisher payments (was Re:
> [GD-General]
> > Prices of well-known
> > 3D engines)
> >=20
> > It's truly dependent on the project (scope, genre, platforms,=20
> > schedule,
> > etc.) and the resulting negotiations. So
> everything
> > below this line is
> > conjecture based on my experience (as a
> programmer,
> > not exec) in the
> > industry.
> >=20
> > Typically, everything is paid on deliverables
> > (milestones). The contract is
> > usually considered the first milestone. The "pure"
> > thought is that the
> > milestone payments just cover your development
> costs
> > while you make a game
> > for your publisher. Then you receive payment
> > (royalties) once the publisher
> > has recouped their expenses (your milestone
> > payments). But, in my
> > experience, the studio can pull in a little profit
> > from the milestone
> > payments as well. The terms of the royalties can
> > vary wildly.
> >=20
> > So your milestone payments should at least keep
> your
> > studio going since
> > that's probably your only incoming cash. So, back
> to
> > your question, a 5 man
> > project could have 1 producer (~$100k), 2 artist's
> > (~$50K ea.), 2 SE It's
> > (~$70K ea), and 1 SE III (~$100K ea).
> >=20
> > ($440K)/12 months =3D $37,000 for a milestone just
> to
> > cover salaries.
> > Throw on another $30K for administrative staff and
> > offices. As an incredibly
> > rough estimate, say you manage to negotiate an
> $80K
> > milestone payment
> > (which, I believe is reasonable for a low budget
> > title), you could
> > conceivably have a positive cash flow of a few
> > thousand bucks. Which isn't
> > bad considering you've already made payroll and
> paid
> > rent. I won't even get
> > into on time delivery bonuses/penalties and
> contract
> > amendments. But, the
> > reality is a five man team is going to have a
> rough
> > time putting out any
> > sort of commercial game in a reasonable time
> frame.
> >=20
>=20
=3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D=20

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[GD-General] Tetris AI Application Source Code Download

[Colin F. <cp...@ea...>]

2003 June 11th
Wednesday

About six months ago I shared my web-camera Tetris-playing
AI system with the world.

Now, I bring you the most insane Tetris laboratory ever.

http://www.colinfahey.com/2003jan_tetris/2003jan_tetris.htm

Download the complete SOURCE CODE and the compiled
application.

This application uses OpenGL for rendering.

This application features a "one-piece" AI that is capable
of completing over 2 million rows (contributed by Pierre
Dellacherie of France).  This elegant algorithm averages
roughly 500K rows.  In my implementation, the algorithm
completes about 160 rows per second on my 800 Mhz computer.
(NOTE: To witness this rate it is necessary to change
the ratio of game iterations to rendered frames, and
the "Move Animation" feature should be toggled off.)

This application is intended as a framework for testing AIs
competing for the World Record in Real-Time Tetris AI
performance.

Categories include:

[1] "One-Piece", Real-Time, Most Rows Completed;
[2] "Two-Piece", Real-Time, Most Rows Completed;
[3] "One-Piece", Real-Time, Most "Tetris"es Completed;
[4] Longest Alternating S/Z Piece Survival;

If you like puzzles, today is your lucky day.

--- Colin

cp...@ea...
http://www.colinfahey.com

(*)DISCLAIMER:  I assume no responsibility if this program
reawakens your addiction to Tetris and wastes your afternoon!

RE: [GD-General] Re: [GD-General][OT] Prices of well-known 3D eng ines

[<phi...@pl...>]

> Not meaning to diss Barca ( Never been there, have heard great things,
hope
> they buy Becks from us etc ), but you are looking at Barca thru rosy
colours
> glasses.

Only slightly. I went there a few years back, for the Sonar festival, and
did see some of the downsides at first hand. Wandered off the touristy
bits, and witnessed a purse-snatching. Lots of interestingly militant
graffiti as well. But then I live in LA, and there's quite a few areas here
that I wouldn't go near after dark, same with London, and I'm sure, same
with pretty much anywhere  (and I'm not going to pass comment on Israel;).

Hmm, speaking of wandering off the path...

Cheers,
Phil

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[<e_a...@ya...>]

OOOOOOpppsss !!

Sorry, that was obviously a personnal answer...

Damned 'answer to' mode that keep on changing !

Emmanuel




 --- Emmanuel Astier <e_a...@ya...> a écrit : >
Mais je vous connais, vous !!
> 
> Tu ne dis pas combien de Horse Race vous avez
> vendu...
> 
> Et ca se passe bien, la vie ?
> 
> Bon il est un peu tard, je vais me coucher,
> j'essayerais de te mailer ou de t'appeler plus
> tard...
> 
> Gros bisous a Lisa et a toi, 
> 
> Manu
> 
> 
> 
>  --- mdr...@cy... a écrit : > I
> think
> that many times you hear about studios in
> > this case (milestones
> > payment) but that's for games being published by
> big
> > publishers.
> > 
> > I'd like to give a different sound of bells. The
> > company I'm working for
> > has shipped three games.
> > 
> > The first game was started in april 2000 and
> shipped
> > in June 2001. The
> > project cost was about 500k€, so that that's not
> > insane. The game was a
> > cycling management game, with interative races.
> You
> > can call it niche
> > market, but it sold more than 100 000 units, just
> in
> > Europe. We had
> > agents, we didn't find a global publisher, so the
> > project was self-funded.
> > We had some royalties advances two months before
> the
> > game shipped, and we
> > signed nearly a contract for every country in
> > Europe. So the game sold
> > well in Europe ( including a Top3 on PC in France)
> > and didn't find a
> > publisher in USA. The royalties rate was about 4-5
> > to 10€ per game sold
> > (and it was sold cheaper than other games), which
> is
> > quite high, but you
> > must take into account that it's a PC game (no
> > royalties for console
> > makers) and it was sell funded so there was no
> risk
> > for our publishers.
> > 
> > The second game was the sequel to the first. It
> was
> > done during July 2001/
> > June 2002. No global publisher found, still it
> sold
> > more than 100.000
> > units. In fact we had propositions, among others
> > from a one of the two big
> > french publishers : 100 k€ of advance + 5€ per
> copy
> > + we still
> > self-finance till completition. Not really
> > appealing... So, the game was
> > shipped by the same small publishers.
> > 
> > The third game was a horse racing/management game.
> > This sport is very
> > popular in UK / France. The game costed 400k€ to
> > make, by another team as
> > the cycling games, during Dec 2001 / Dec 2002. The
> > best deal we found was,
> > 3 months before completition, 300k€ for
> > UK+Germany+France+Benelux in
> > advance ( 30 000 copies with 10€ per copy). We
> > worked with other
> > publishers for the other countries. The main
> > publisher was not very
> > active, so with those 4 countries we expect to
> sell
> > just a few more copies
> > than 30 000. Other countries did quite well
> > considering the sport is not
> > very popular, and with our previous two games we
> had
> > good contracts, up to
> > 12-14€ per copy. So the game, who shipped in
> europe,
> > and soon in USA, has
> > made so far about 525k€ in royalties.
> > 
> > We now have 3 games in developpment (2 sports
> > managers, one innovative
> > strategy game), and for the two sport games, we
> > don't even try to find a
> > big publisher. Especially if you consider that our
> > partners made some good
> > mareketing in their own countries, and we have
> good
> > delas with them.
> > 
> > My conclusion is that you can make interessant
> > games, deliver them on
> > time, have a proven quality track and sell many
> > copies, you won't
> > necessarly find a publisher that will pay you to
> > make your game. And the
> > milestone system is more targeted at middle to big
> > products, especially
> > console games. For a game done by 5 people ( we
> are
> > 6-8 per project), it's
> > really difficult to find that scheme of agreement
> :
> > your game is not big
> > enough for a big publisher...
> > 
> > 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De :
> > gam...@li...
> >
>
[mailto:gam...@li...]
> > De la part de
> > Paul Reynolds
> > Envoyé : samedi 7 juin 2003 02:42
> > À : gam...@li...
> > Objet : RE: Publisher payments (was Re:
> [GD-General]
> > Prices of well-known
> > 3D engines)
> > 
> > It's truly dependent on the project (scope, genre,
> > platforms, schedule,
> > etc.) and the resulting negotiations. So
> everything
> > below this line is
> > conjecture based on my experience (as a
> programmer,
> > not exec) in the
> > industry.
> > 
> > Typically, everything is paid on deliverables
> > (milestones). The contract is
> > usually considered the first milestone. The "pure"
> > thought is that the
> > milestone payments just cover your development
> costs
> > while you make a game
> > for your publisher. Then you receive payment
> > (royalties) once the publisher
> > has recouped their expenses (your milestone
> > payments). But, in my
> > experience, the studio can pull in a little profit
> > from the milestone
> > payments as well. The terms of the royalties can
> > vary wildly.
> > 
> > So your milestone payments should at least keep
> your
> > studio going since
> > that's probably your only incoming cash. So, back
> to
> > your question, a 5 man
> > project could have 1 producer (~$100k), 2 artist's
> > (~$50K ea.), 2 SE It's
> > (~$70K ea), and 1 SE III (~$100K ea).
> > 
> > ($440K)/12 months = $37,000 for a milestone just
> to
> > cover salaries.
> > Throw on another $30K for administrative staff and
> > offices. As an incredibly
> > rough estimate, say you manage to negotiate an
> $80K
> > milestone payment
> > (which, I believe is reasonable for a low budget
> > title), you could
> > conceivably have a positive cash flow of a few
> > thousand bucks. Which isn't
> > bad considering you've already made payroll and
> paid
> > rent. I won't even get
> > into on time delivery bonuses/penalties and
> contract
> > amendments. But, the
> > reality is a five man team is going to have a
> rough
> > time putting out any
> > sort of commercial game in a reasonable time
> frame.
> > 
> 
=== message truncated === 

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[<e_a...@ya...>]

Mais je vous connais, vous !!

Tu ne dis pas combien de Horse Race vous avez vendu...

Et ca se passe bien, la vie ?

Bon il est un peu tard, je vais me coucher,
j'essayerais de te mailer ou de t'appeler plus tard...

Gros bisous a Lisa et a toi, 

Manu



 --- mdr...@cy... a écrit : > I think
that many times you hear about studios in
> this case (milestones
> payment) but that's for games being published by big
> publishers.
> 
> I'd like to give a different sound of bells. The
> company I'm working for
> has shipped three games.
> 
> The first game was started in april 2000 and shipped
> in June 2001. The
> project cost was about 500k€, so that that's not
> insane. The game was a
> cycling management game, with interative races. You
> can call it niche
> market, but it sold more than 100 000 units, just in
> Europe. We had
> agents, we didn't find a global publisher, so the
> project was self-funded.
> We had some royalties advances two months before the
> game shipped, and we
> signed nearly a contract for every country in
> Europe. So the game sold
> well in Europe ( including a Top3 on PC in France)
> and didn't find a
> publisher in USA. The royalties rate was about 4-5
> to 10€ per game sold
> (and it was sold cheaper than other games), which is
> quite high, but you
> must take into account that it's a PC game (no
> royalties for console
> makers) and it was sell funded so there was no risk
> for our publishers.
> 
> The second game was the sequel to the first. It was
> done during July 2001/
> June 2002. No global publisher found, still it sold
> more than 100.000
> units. In fact we had propositions, among others
> from a one of the two big
> french publishers : 100 k€ of advance + 5€ per copy
> + we still
> self-finance till completition. Not really
> appealing... So, the game was
> shipped by the same small publishers.
> 
> The third game was a horse racing/management game.
> This sport is very
> popular in UK / France. The game costed 400k€ to
> make, by another team as
> the cycling games, during Dec 2001 / Dec 2002. The
> best deal we found was,
> 3 months before completition, 300k€ for
> UK+Germany+France+Benelux in
> advance ( 30 000 copies with 10€ per copy). We
> worked with other
> publishers for the other countries. The main
> publisher was not very
> active, so with those 4 countries we expect to sell
> just a few more copies
> than 30 000. Other countries did quite well
> considering the sport is not
> very popular, and with our previous two games we had
> good contracts, up to
> 12-14€ per copy. So the game, who shipped in europe,
> and soon in USA, has
> made so far about 525k€ in royalties.
> 
> We now have 3 games in developpment (2 sports
> managers, one innovative
> strategy game), and for the two sport games, we
> don't even try to find a
> big publisher. Especially if you consider that our
> partners made some good
> mareketing in their own countries, and we have good
> delas with them.
> 
> My conclusion is that you can make interessant
> games, deliver them on
> time, have a proven quality track and sell many
> copies, you won't
> necessarly find a publisher that will pay you to
> make your game. And the
> milestone system is more targeted at middle to big
> products, especially
> console games. For a game done by 5 people ( we are
> 6-8 per project), it's
> really difficult to find that scheme of agreement :
> your game is not big
> enough for a big publisher...
> 
> 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De :
> gam...@li...
>
[mailto:gam...@li...]
> De la part de
> Paul Reynolds
> Envoyé : samedi 7 juin 2003 02:42
> À : gam...@li...
> Objet : RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General]
> Prices of well-known
> 3D engines)
> 
> It's truly dependent on the project (scope, genre,
> platforms, schedule,
> etc.) and the resulting negotiations. So everything
> below this line is
> conjecture based on my experience (as a programmer,
> not exec) in the
> industry.
> 
> Typically, everything is paid on deliverables
> (milestones). The contract is
> usually considered the first milestone. The "pure"
> thought is that the
> milestone payments just cover your development costs
> while you make a game
> for your publisher. Then you receive payment
> (royalties) once the publisher
> has recouped their expenses (your milestone
> payments). But, in my
> experience, the studio can pull in a little profit
> from the milestone
> payments as well. The terms of the royalties can
> vary wildly.
> 
> So your milestone payments should at least keep your
> studio going since
> that's probably your only incoming cash. So, back to
> your question, a 5 man
> project could have 1 producer (~$100k), 2 artist's
> (~$50K ea.), 2 SE It's
> (~$70K ea), and 1 SE III (~$100K ea).
> 
> ($440K)/12 months = $37,000 for a milestone just to
> cover salaries.
> Throw on another $30K for administrative staff and
> offices. As an incredibly
> rough estimate, say you manage to negotiate an $80K
> milestone payment
> (which, I believe is reasonable for a low budget
> title), you could
> conceivably have a positive cash flow of a few
> thousand bucks. Which isn't
> bad considering you've already made payroll and paid
> rent. I won't even get
> into on time delivery bonuses/penalties and contract
> amendments. But, the
> reality is a five man team is going to have a rough
> time putting out any
> sort of commercial game in a reasonable time frame.
> 
> Factor by 0.75 for Spain, 0.5 for Ukraine, and 0.25
> for China ;op
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> gam...@li...
>
[mailto:gam...@li...]On
> Behalf Of
> Frank Davis
> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:28 PM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General]
> Prices of well-known
> 3D engines)
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> (Sorry if this comes through twice)
> 
> >Obviously publishers won't gave the same ammount of
> money to develop a game
> >in spain as int USA... at least i don't think you
> can fool them that way :)
> >So perhaps we will get a 1/15 fraction of the
> ammount of money you (USA)
> >can get from a publisher...
> >I don't know it for sure, as i don't work on games
> directly
> 
> I'm not sure if this off topic, but i would guess it
> isnt so here goes..
> 
> Is there anyone that can give any information about
> how much a game should
> earn a small developer team? I understand not too
> many of you are willing to
> share details of your financial situation, so dont
> use game names if you
> dont want to.
> 
> Lets say you have a team of 5 people working
> fulltime on a game for a couple
> of months. What would be a reasonable payment? I
> suppose you would receive a
> sum on signing of the contract, a sum on delivering
> a master, and royalties
> for each sold product? Does anyone have numbers?
> 
=== message truncated === 

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[<mdr...@cy...>]

I think that many times you hear about studios in this case (milestones
payment) but that's for games being published by big publishers.

I'd like to give a different sound of bells. The company I'm working for
has shipped three games.

The first game was started in april 2000 and shipped in June 2001. The
project cost was about 500k€, so that that's not insane. The game was a
cycling management game, with interative races. You can call it niche
market, but it sold more than 100 000 units, just in Europe. We had
agents, we didn't find a global publisher, so the project was self-funded.
We had some royalties advances two months before the game shipped, and we
signed nearly a contract for every country in Europe. So the game sold
well in Europe ( including a Top3 on PC in France) and didn't find a
publisher in USA. The royalties rate was about 4-5 to 10€ per game sold
(and it was sold cheaper than other games), which is quite high, but you
must take into account that it's a PC game (no royalties for console
makers) and it was sell funded so there was no risk for our publishers.

The second game was the sequel to the first. It was done during July 2001/
June 2002. No global publisher found, still it sold more than 100.000
units. In fact we had propositions, among others from a one of the two big
french publishers : 100 k€ of advance + 5€ per copy + we still
self-finance till completition. Not really appealing... So, the game was
shipped by the same small publishers.

The third game was a horse racing/management game. This sport is very
popular in UK / France. The game costed 400k€ to make, by another team as
the cycling games, during Dec 2001 / Dec 2002. The best deal we found was,
3 months before completition, 300k€ for UK+Germany+France+Benelux in
advance ( 30 000 copies with 10€ per copy). We worked with other
publishers for the other countries. The main publisher was not very
active, so with those 4 countries we expect to sell just a few more copies
than 30 000. Other countries did quite well considering the sport is not
very popular, and with our previous two games we had good contracts, up to
12-14€ per copy. So the game, who shipped in europe, and soon in USA, has
made so far about 525k€ in royalties.

We now have 3 games in developpment (2 sports managers, one innovative
strategy game), and for the two sport games, we don't even try to find a
big publisher. Especially if you consider that our partners made some good
mareketing in their own countries, and we have good delas with them.

My conclusion is that you can make interessant games, deliver them on
time, have a proven quality track and sell many copies, you won't
necessarly find a publisher that will pay you to make your game. And the
milestone system is more targeted at middle to big products, especially
console games. For a game done by 5 people ( we are 6-8 per project), it's
really difficult to find that scheme of agreement : your game is not big
enough for a big publisher...


-----Message d'origine-----
De : gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...] De la part de
Paul Reynolds
Envoyé : samedi 7 juin 2003 02:42
À : gam...@li...
Objet : RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known
3D engines)

It's truly dependent on the project (scope, genre, platforms, schedule,
etc.) and the resulting negotiations. So everything below this line is
conjecture based on my experience (as a programmer, not exec) in the
industry.

Typically, everything is paid on deliverables (milestones). The contract is
usually considered the first milestone. The "pure" thought is that the
milestone payments just cover your development costs while you make a game
for your publisher. Then you receive payment (royalties) once the publisher
has recouped their expenses (your milestone payments). But, in my
experience, the studio can pull in a little profit from the milestone
payments as well. The terms of the royalties can vary wildly.

So your milestone payments should at least keep your studio going since
that's probably your only incoming cash. So, back to your question, a 5 man
project could have 1 producer (~$100k), 2 artist's (~$50K ea.), 2 SE It's
(~$70K ea), and 1 SE III (~$100K ea).

($440K)/12 months = $37,000 for a milestone just to cover salaries.
Throw on another $30K for administrative staff and offices. As an incredibly
rough estimate, say you manage to negotiate an $80K milestone payment
(which, I believe is reasonable for a low budget title), you could
conceivably have a positive cash flow of a few thousand bucks. Which isn't
bad considering you've already made payroll and paid rent. I won't even get
into on time delivery bonuses/penalties and contract amendments. But, the
reality is a five man team is going to have a rough time putting out any
sort of commercial game in a reasonable time frame.

Factor by 0.75 for Spain, 0.5 for Ukraine, and 0.25 for China ;op

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Frank Davis
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:28 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known
3D engines)


Hi all,

(Sorry if this comes through twice)

>Obviously publishers won't gave the same ammount of money to develop a game
>in spain as int USA... at least i don't think you can fool them that way :)
>So perhaps we will get a 1/15 fraction of the ammount of money you (USA)
>can get from a publisher...
>I don't know it for sure, as i don't work on games directly

I'm not sure if this off topic, but i would guess it isnt so here goes..

Is there anyone that can give any information about how much a game should
earn a small developer team? I understand not too many of you are willing to
share details of your financial situation, so dont use game names if you
dont want to.

Lets say you have a team of 5 people working fulltime on a game for a couple
of months. What would be a reasonable payment? I suppose you would receive a
sum on signing of the contract, a sum on delivering a master, and royalties
for each sold product? Does anyone have numbers?

Regards,
Frank

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