gamedevlists-general — List for discussing general game development issues

Re: [GD-General] Missing messages

[Neil S. <ne...@r0...>]

> Sounds like the list software, I also get stuff out of order. But I
haven't
> missed any messages to my knowledge.

Scarily, my own post about this hasn't arrived in my mailbox, but yours did.

I know some mailing lists give you the option not to receive your own posts,
but I have received most (maybe even all) of my recent ones, so I don't
think that's a factor.

- Neil.

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Paul R. <pa...@so...>]

Yeah, that kind of what I was trying to say in my first paragraph. From my
experience, there's no standard formula. Talking specific cash amounts is
where it gets tricky (and people get squeamish). None of my numbers where
based on a specific project. Just conjecture. A big asterisk should probably
go along with anything anybody says on this thread.*

I'm sure when some people saw Mr. Davis' post, they thought "5 man team"
meant five programmers. So I'm only sharing what little bit of insight I
have to what it may take to make a commercial game as an independent studio.
If you're truly serious, I believe there are professionals out there that
you can hire as your agent that will help you find contracts for your studio
or shop around your idea (be prepared to have a fairly complete demo if
you're a new studio). After you contact a lawyer first. :o)

Paul*


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Brian Hook
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 6:49 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of
well-known 3D engines)


>Anyone else would like to share info on this subject?

There's no clear answer to this.  EVERY developer, product,
publisher, situation, etc. is unique.  The compensation can be
different orders of magnitude.  There's simply no "regular" agreement
that you can look at, there are just too many variables involved.

Brian




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RE: [GD-General] Missing messages

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Sounds like the list software, I also get stuff out of order. But I haven't
missed any messages to my knowledge.

We have found on yahoo! groups that certain sentances (For example, try the
phrase "George bush terrorist free world") add a good 2 hours to the time
for an email to go thru(*)

(*) Please, I'm not trying to get into politics on this list, the above
phrase has nothing to do with my opinions, it was just discovered thru trial
and error by other people :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Stewart [mailto:ne...@r0...]
> Sent: 07 June 2003 15:56
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-General] Missing messages
> 
> 
> I don't appear to be receiving all messages posted to this 
> list and, when I
> do, they come in a completely random order. Is this likely to 
> be something
> at my end, or is it a problem with the list mailer? I'm not 
> even convinced
> that the archive is getting everything, but it is certainly 
> getting a lot
> more than I am.
> 
> Anyone got any ideas?
> 
> - Neil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by:  Etnus, makers of 
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> 

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> I'm not sure if this off topic, but i would guess it isnt so 
> here goes..

This is GD-General, if it's got anything to do with games and/or game
development (and your email had a lot) then it's on topic, that's the point
:)

RE: [GD-General] Re: [GD-General][OT] Prices of well-known 3D eng ines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> > > Well, i've found that people is not prepared, and due the 
> situation of
> > > game industry in spain (big comanies are only in madrid 
> and barcelona,
> > > you force people to move, and people doesn't like to move here)
> 
> Damn, I'd probably move to Barcelona (subject to reasonable 
> offer, learning
> spanish, spousal approval, and not for a few years yet anyway).
> Mediterranean weather, working public transport system, amazing
> architecture, Sonar festival. I mean, you guys actually have 
> culture... ;)

Not meaning to diss Barca ( Never been there, have heard great things, hope
they buy Becks from us etc ), but you are looking at Barca thru rosy colours
glasses.

I could describe Israel (where I come from) as Mediterranean weather,
amazing architecture, amazing history, lots of culture, beautiful women,
excellent food, very warm people.

Of course, there are drawbacks to living in Israel, but on paper....

RE: [GD-General] Working Hours

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Needless to say there's not many (any?) game companies 
> in Ireland :)


None that i know of, but the Funcom branch (that I worked in) closed down
not because of work hours, taking into account that the main office is in
Norway, the company policy was not "lots and lots of hours equals lots and
lots of work", which is the UK/US idiom.

There are more reasons why some countries have lots of game developers and
some have few.

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> > Actually, as I understand EU rules ( and I know this based on
> documentries about the Euro and the problems they are having 
> in Germany )
> it's illegal for you to work more than 37.5 hours a week. 
> That's why the
> German people are calling for "flexibility".
> 
> That doesn't sound right. I can understand them not being 
> allowed to force
> you to work more than a certain amount, and I've met / worked under
> management types who would read that as limiting their 
> work-hours (as in, I
> can't work a 50 hour week because I can't force my staff to 
> work a 50 hour
> week).

I'll try to find some backing, but the problem in the EU is that even if the
boss doesn't "force" people to work, but they do anyway, the boss is at
Fault. Also the law (I think) is that you don't need to have a case brought
against you by an employee. Again that's why the Germans want "Flexibility".
which means (as I understand it) the ability for people to work longer if
they so choose.

[GD-General] Missing messages

[Neil S. <ne...@r0...>]

I don't appear to be receiving all messages posted to this list and, when I
do, they come in a completely random order. Is this likely to be something
at my end, or is it a problem with the list mailer? I'm not even convinced
that the archive is getting everything, but it is certainly getting a lot
more than I am.

Anyone got any ideas?

- Neil.

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Brian H. <ho...@py...>]

>Anyone else would like to share info on this subject?

There's no clear answer to this.  EVERY developer, product, 
publisher, situation, etc. is unique.  The compensation can be 
different orders of magnitude.  There's simply no "regular"=
 agreement 
that you can look at, there are just too many variables=
 involved.

Brian

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Frank D. <fra...@ho...>]

Hi,

These numbers sound quite high to me for an unknown developer. Is this still 
the case in the current economic situation? Game publishers probably have 
the same problems that other companies have, and might not want to invest in 
unknown companies. I suppose they could say that you have to live with 
smaller advance payments during the development process, and perhaps give 
you a higher percentage of the royalties. Does it make a large difference 
what platform you're working on? PC sales are known to be lower than console 
sales, so are these numbers much lower?

Anyone else would like to share info on this subject?

Regards,
Frank

>From: "Paul Reynolds" <pa...@so...>
>Reply-To: gam...@li...
>To: <gam...@li...>
>Subject: RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 
>3D engines)
>Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:41:31 -0700
>
>It's truly dependent on the project (scope, genre, platforms, schedule,
>etc.) and the resulting negotiations. So everything below this line is
>conjecture based on my experience (as a programmer, not exec) in the
>industry.
>
>Typically, everything is paid on deliverables (milestones). The contract is
>usually considered the first milestone. The "pure" thought is that the
>milestone payments just cover your development costs while you make a game
>for your publisher. Then you receive payment (royalties) once the publisher
>has recouped their expenses (your milestone payments). But, in my
>experience, the studio can pull in a little profit from the milestone
>payments as well. The terms of the royalties can vary wildly.
>
>So your milestone payments should at least keep your studio going since
>that's probably your only incoming cash. So, back to your question, a 5 man
>project could have 1 producer (~$100k), 2 artist's (~$50K ea.), 2 SE It's
>(~$70K ea), and 1 SE III (~$100K ea).
>
>($440K)/12 months = $37,000 for a milestone just to cover salaries.
>Throw on another $30K for administrative staff and offices. As an 
>incredibly
>rough estimate, say you manage to negotiate an $80K milestone payment
>(which, I believe is reasonable for a low budget title), you could
>conceivably have a positive cash flow of a few thousand bucks. Which isn't
>bad considering you've already made payroll and paid rent. I won't even get
>into on time delivery bonuses/penalties and contract amendments. But, the
>reality is a five man team is going to have a rough time putting out any
>sort of commercial game in a reasonable time frame.
>
>Factor by 0.75 for Spain, 0.5 for Ukraine, and 0.25 for China ;op

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RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Paul R. <pa...@so...>]

It's truly dependent on the project (scope, genre, platforms, schedule,
etc.) and the resulting negotiations. So everything below this line is
conjecture based on my experience (as a programmer, not exec) in the
industry.

Typically, everything is paid on deliverables (milestones). The contract is
usually considered the first milestone. The "pure" thought is that the
milestone payments just cover your development costs while you make a game
for your publisher. Then you receive payment (royalties) once the publisher
has recouped their expenses (your milestone payments). But, in my
experience, the studio can pull in a little profit from the milestone
payments as well. The terms of the royalties can vary wildly.

So your milestone payments should at least keep your studio going since
that's probably your only incoming cash. So, back to your question, a 5 man
project could have 1 producer (~$100k), 2 artist's (~$50K ea.), 2 SE It's
(~$70K ea), and 1 SE III (~$100K ea).

($440K)/12 months = $37,000 for a milestone just to cover salaries.
Throw on another $30K for administrative staff and offices. As an incredibly
rough estimate, say you manage to negotiate an $80K milestone payment
(which, I believe is reasonable for a low budget title), you could
conceivably have a positive cash flow of a few thousand bucks. Which isn't
bad considering you've already made payroll and paid rent. I won't even get
into on time delivery bonuses/penalties and contract amendments. But, the
reality is a five man team is going to have a rough time putting out any
sort of commercial game in a reasonable time frame.

Factor by 0.75 for Spain, 0.5 for Ukraine, and 0.25 for China ;op

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Frank Davis
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:28 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known
3D engines)


Hi all,

(Sorry if this comes through twice)

>Obviously publishers won't gave the same ammount of money to develop a game
>in spain as int USA... at least i don't think you can fool them that way :)
>So perhaps we will get a 1/15 fraction of the ammount of money you (USA)
>can get from a publisher...
>I don't know it for sure, as i don't work on games directly

I'm not sure if this off topic, but i would guess it isnt so here goes..

Is there anyone that can give any information about how much a game should
earn a small developer team? I understand not too many of you are willing to
share details of your financial situation, so dont use game names if you
dont want to.

Lets say you have a team of 5 people working fulltime on a game for a couple
of months. What would be a reasonable payment? I suppose you would receive a
sum on signing of the contract, a sum on delivering a master, and royalties
for each sold product? Does anyone have numbers?

Regards,
Frank

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Re: [GD-General] Re: [GD-General][OT] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[<phi...@pl...>]

> > Well, i've found that people is not prepared, and due the situation of
> > game industry in spain (big comanies are only in madrid and barcelona,
> > you force people to move, and people doesn't like to move here)

Damn, I'd probably move to Barcelona (subject to reasonable offer, learning
spanish, spousal approval, and not for a few years yet anyway).
Mediterranean weather, working public transport system, amazing
architecture, Sonar festival. I mean, you guys actually have culture... ;)

> Yes, people still don't take it seriously. But it will change with time.

My single friends tell me it's actually a plus point these days. Who'd've
thunk it?

Cheers,
Phil

Re: [GD-General] Re: [GD-General][OT] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Ivan G. <dea...@ga...>]

> Well, i've found that people is not prepared, and due the situation of
> game industry in spain (big comanies are only in madrid and barcelona,
> you force people to move, and people doesn't like to move here)

I'm from Croatia, and we practically don't have the game industry(only two
serious companies, AFAIK), both located in the capital. However, I don't
think the situation is much different in USA either. I mean, regarding the
size of the country, you can't expect to have a development studio 20 mins
from home, so I guess people need to move there, too. Personally, I don't
find moving to another location such a bad thing...

> > - Impossible to compete with offers from US/UK job opportunities.
> >
> Obviously, i would emmigrate if i didn't own my own company :)

And I'd emmigrate if I had a chance :) Emiggration to USA is almost
impossible these days(even harder than getting a good job in the industry
there :), and GB is not really attractive :)

> > - Less candidates, and less experienced ones (designers & producers in
> >particular).
> As i've stated above, people here is educated to do "serious" software.

The same thing here... Fortunately, most of the things one should know in
order to work in this industry can be self-thought(it is harder, but still
possible if you have a strong desire).

> > - Public perception of pursuing a videogames career is *even* worse than
in
> >other places.
> Well, teenagers think it 's cool :) but that's all... but it's normal.

Yes, people still don't take it seriously. But it will change with time. It
is entertainment industry, just like movies, so I guess people will
eventually get used to it.

> are so expensive, perhaps 50 euros doesn't seem high enough for some of
> you, but it is for the mean income of spanish people. So what they do?
> they pirate them, I don't say you have to low the games to 20-30 euros
> but, they're too expensive, and that's a fact. It's not a excuse, but if
> you want a game because is cool and you can't afford it (and most
> teenagers can't afford a game each 15 days) you will pirate it.

Exactly. 50eur is way too much for people here - not just teenagers, but
everyone. Even if it's two times a year(and two games on twelve months just
isn't enough). And the pirated game costs a little over 1eur per CD.

> > - Knowledge and practice with the English language is still very scarce.
> We do our best, but english is hard, at least speaking  it without
> accent and correct pronounciation Javier, English have a lot of strange
> phonemes ;)

I like English very much. And now that I've started learning German, I don't
find English difficult at all ;) Piece of cake :)

-Ivan

[GD-General] Re: asset & document management

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

Garett Bass wrote:

>>Then I found Sharepont...
>

> Subversion and a Linux server sounds like a cheap alternative.  As soon as I
> get my Linux box up, I'll try it out.  I would install it on a Windows XP
> box, but I can't afford to install XP Service Pack 1.  Perhaps I too will
> someday be able to afford Windows servers :P

Subversion is okay for managing code and assets. CVS is still better for us, 
because we need cvs annotate (aka cvs blame), and subversion does not have 
that yet. But it looks like whenever subversion is good enough, migration 
from CVS will not be difficult.

But Sharepoint is supposed to solve another problem. CVS does a good job of 
keeping versions, but it's not a good tool for documentation management. In 
Sharepoint, I can orgnaize documents much better, I get a nice portal with 
search functionality that even our marketing folks can use, and I get 
features like the alerts - notifications when somebody changes a certain 
document that I've shown an interest in. Plus, I can file documents with 
meta-data, like keywords, production status, etc. that I can search or 
organize them by.

CVS or subverion could be a nice part of the backend for this. If I'd make 
my own, it would come out somewhere as a mix between a mySQL database to 
store the metadata, CVS to keep the versions, and some portal features like 
in phpBB.

Enno.

RE: [GD-General] Working Hours

[<phi...@pl...>]

> Needless to say there's not many (any?) game companies in Ireland :)

Although I supect there's an excellent animation school.

Cheers,
Phil

RE: [GD-General] Re: asset & document management

[Garett B. <gt...@st...>]

>Then I found Sharepont...

Subversion and a Linux server sounds like a cheap alternative.  As soon as I
get my Linux box up, I'll try it out.  I would install it on a Windows XP
box, but I can't afford to install XP Service Pack 1.  Perhaps I too will
someday be able to afford Windows servers :P

$0.0002,
Garett Bass
gt...@st...

Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Frank D. <fra...@ho...>]

Hi all,

(Sorry if this comes through twice)

>Obviously publishers won't gave the same ammount of money to develop a game 
>in spain as int USA... at least i don't think you can fool them that way :)
>So perhaps we will get a 1/15 fraction of the ammount of money you (USA) 
>can get from a publisher...
>I don't know it for sure, as i don't work on games directly

I'm not sure if this off topic, but i would guess it isnt so here goes..

Is there anyone that can give any information about how much a game should 
earn a small developer team? I understand not too many of you are willing to 
share details of your financial situation, so dont use game names if you 
dont want to.

Lets say you have a team of 5 people working fulltime on a game for a couple 
of months. What would be a reasonable payment? I suppose you would receive a 
sum on signing of the contract, a sum on delivering a master, and royalties 
for each sold product? Does anyone have numbers?

Regards,
Frank

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online 
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

RE: [GD-General] Working Hours

[Andrew G. <ag...@cl...>]

> That doesn't sound right. I can understand them not being 
> allowed to force
> you to work more than a certain amount, and I've met / worked under
> management types who would read that as limiting their 
> work-hours (as in, I
> can't work a 50 hour week because I can't force my staff to 
> work a 50 hour
> week).

You know, that actually is the case. The European Directive which governs
working time and holidays for workers in the EU states they should not work
more than an average of 48 hour per week over a specified period of time. It
also covers items such as minimum yearly holidays, rest periods, and so on.
There's exceptions for certain areas of work, e.g. the armed forces and
emergency services, where they may have cause to exceed this for the public
interest. Needless to say the video games industry isn't mentioned :)

However, it's only a directive. While each member state must implement each
directive they're free to amend it as they see fit. For instance in the UK
employees can agree with their employer to disregard the maximum working
time, and indeed most companies have a section stating you agree that during
unspecified periods the company may compel you to exceed the maximum working
week.

The basic rights that the UK provides under this law are;

a limit of an average of 48 hours a week which a worker can be required to
work (though workers can choose to work more if they want to).
a limit of an average of 8 hours work in 24 which nightworkers can be
required to work.
a right for night workers to receive free health assessments.
a right to 11 hours rest a day.
a right to a day off each week.
a right to an in-work rest break if the working day is longer than six
hours.
a right to four weeks paid leave per year.

(http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/work_time_regs/)

I'm not sure about Germany/Spain but I know Irelend implement the directive
pretty much to the letter, in a specified period (usually 4 months) you
cannot work more than an average of 48 hours a week. Employers are actually
required to hold all records for an employee and have harsh financial
penalties applied for not being able to produce documentation for a workers
hours. Needless to say there's not many (any?) game companies in Ireland :)

http://www.tormeysols.ie/orgworktime.htm


Andy @
Climax Brighton

[GD-General] Re: Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

> Are we defining work hours, as hours you are at the work-place, or hours
> you are actively working? I mean, I spend at least an hour at work every
> day doing stuff that's not strictly work-related, not including lunch.
> Also, I spend a lot of time outside of work, thinking about work, and since
> 50% of my job is planning the other 50% of it, is that work too?

What you do off-work is your own choice. Not work. Especially in our 
business, we tend to mix this up. I frequently describe my job like this: 
"Work is when I'm having fun and getting paid for it. Free time is when I'm 
just having fun. Guess which is better".

But this is of course not the full story, and there's another definition of 
work that explains it: "The difference between work and fun is that I can 
choose not to have fun". Noone will force you to think about work during 
free time. and if you're flipping burgers, you wouldn't. I assume that if 
you do it anyways, you do it because it's something you enjoy.

Enno.

[GD-General] Re: asset & document management

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

After all the input I got from this thread a few weeks back, I decided to 
give Sharepoint another shot for document management. Sharepoint Server is 
hideously expensive, though - I need to pay for the SPS server, the Win2K 
server, plus CALs for all our clients - in total, I end up somewhere around 
$12K real quick for a small team of 25 people, unless I've totally 
misunderstood MS licensing (which wouldn't surprise me either).

Then I found Sharepont Team Services, and it looked good. This is a 
toned--down version of Sharepoint that comes with Frontpage 2002, which 
costs $169. It installs on IIS so yes, I still need one Windows Server 
License. It needs an SQL server 2000, because without that, I don't get any 
search functionality. That's another 5,000 USD.

But I still need to buy a Client Access License (not for SPS, but for the 
Windows server) for every user in the company, because although this is all 
done via web pages, it requires logon using windows authentication - and 
once you do that, every user needs one CAL. For 25 clients, that's 1,800 USD 
for the server + CALs. I end up paying around 7,000 USD for something that 
is a better web portal, with most of that cost going into the search button.

That's really, really frustrating. I suppose for a company that's already 
using Windows servers and MS SQL servers, Sharepoint Team Services is really 
well-priced (at $169), but having to buy this long trail of other products 
is just way too much.

Damnit!

Enno.

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[<phi...@pl...>]

> Actually, as I understand EU rules ( and I know this based on
documentries about the Euro and the problems they are having in Germany )
it's illegal for you to work more than 37.5 hours a week. That's why the
German people are calling for "flexibility".

That doesn't sound right. I can understand them not being allowed to force
you to work more than a certain amount, and I've met / worked under
management types who would read that as limiting their work-hours (as in, I
can't work a 50 hour week because I can't force my staff to work a 50 hour
week).

> Personally, I think that productivity is the highest when the work hours
are ~40 a week, but that's a totaly differance discussion.

Are we defining work hours, as hours you are at the work-place, or hours
you are actively working? I mean, I spend at least an hour at work every
day doing stuff that's not strictly work-related, not including lunch.
Also, I spend a lot of time outside of work, thinking about work, and since
50% of my job is planning the other 50% of it, is that work too?

Cheers,
Phil

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[<phi...@pl...>]

> Obviously publishers won't gave the same ammount of money to develop a
game in spain as int USA... at least i don't think you can fool them that
way :)

Does mean the royalties kick in earlier. Well, assuming you can get to that
point.

Cheers,
Phil

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Gareth Lewin wrote:

> Personally, I think that productivity is the highest when the work
> hours are ~40 a week, but that's a totaly differance discussion.

Steady, long-term work is most productive at about 40hrs / week. However,
unproductivity due to buggy organisation (i.e. wasted work) *can* be made up
by bruteforcing longer hours. In addition, short bursts of longer hours can
get more stuff done (and even achieve higher productivity per hour) without
losing quality, _if_ the people are motivated and believe in the
appropriateness or neccesity of the increased production speed. ("Motivated"
as in "Not Dilbert-style")

Planning for periods of longer hours is a long-term disaster.

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

[GD-General] Work hours, was (but has little to do with) Re: Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

Gareth Lewin wrote:

> Actually, as I understand EU rules ( and I know this based on documentries
> about the Euro and the problems they are having in Germany ) it's illegal
> for you to work more than 37.5 hours a week. That's why the German people
> are calling for "flexibility".

I don't know exactly, but I think that's only true if you've got a union 
contract. Where I work, contracts are for 37.5 hours, but there's overtime 
during crunch periods. This can be either paid or unpaid depending on the 
contract, but there's a limit (200 hours, IIRC) of how much you're allowed 
to work per year.

> But I have to admit I'm pretty ignorant in this area, I do know that talking
> to one of the people from our publisher said that one developer in France
> they work with is (in his vision) a "nightmare cause they work so little
> hours".

I heard the same thing from a publisher. "They come in at 11 and leave at 
3!", but someohwo I find that hard to believe. We've probably talked to the 
same publisher here, and it wasn't Atari :-)

Personally, my productivity per hour gets higher when I go beyond 40 hours a 
week. I like working around 50, because it takes a while to get started each 
day, and in the evening, if there is a lose end, I'd like to tie it rather 
than push it into the next day. Burnout can become a problem if you push 
that. For me, taking a full day off when I feel like it instead of working 
to a strict schedule works much better. So I'd rather work 4x10 hours than 
5x8, but that's not really working out :-)

Enno.

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Actually, as I understand EU rules ( and I know this based on documentries
about the Euro and the problems they are having in Germany ) it's illegal
for you to work more than 37.5 hours a week. That's why the German people
are calling for "flexibility".

But I have to admit I'm pretty ignorant in this area, I do know that talking
to one of the people from our publisher said that one developer in France
they work with is (in his vision) a "nightmare cause they work so little
hours".

Personally, I think that productivity is the highest when the work hours are
~40 a week, but that's a totaly differance discussion.

Thankfully this is GD-General so now we can go into that discussion.

Yay, I always like it when this list gets more volume than gd-algo :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Newport [mailto:mat...@ni...]
> Sent: 06 June 2003 15:38
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines
> 
> 
> > <stir>
> > 
> > In the EU you can't work more than 37.5 hours, in Spain you 
> > have siestas. 
> > 
> > </stir>
> 
> I don't think the regulations say you *can't* work more than 
> 37.5 hours, they say you can't be *required* to work more 
> than 37.5 hours which is rather different. So you can't be 
> sacked for refusing to work more than 37.5 hours but if you 
> choose to work more hours that's fine.
> 
> Matt. 
> 
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