gamedevlists-consoles — List for discussing game development on consoles like the PS2 and XBox

[GD-Consoles] selector patent

[Brett B. <res...@ga...>]

I would like to implement a "menu" selector on consoles in such a way that
the choices appear in a circle so they can be directly selected with an
analog controller or dpad without scrolling.  I thought I remember one of
the 3D art packages doing this years ago and that they were going to seek a
patent, but I have no idea how to search if it is patented or not.  Also,
for this type of thing, would the patent be on the algorithm to do it, the
layout or ???  Finally, it got me to wondering if Sony, NOA or MS has
licensed patents pertaining to these kinds of software patents or not.  If
so, how does one find out what has been licensed?  I have never seen
anything other than Dolby or image licenses mentioned in their SDKs.

I'm asking on this list because this is the best place I can think of where
somebody may have encountered this before.  If it is inappropriate, please
email me directly rather than posting as I do not want to perpetuate the
problem :-)

Thanks,
Brett
res...@ga...
GameBrains

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Mark W. <Mwa...@to...>]

You pretty much answered it with "create a game object" rather
than exposing some of your lower level systems. Pretty obvious
stuff, but some scripters want more and more power - I was just
wondering at what level you restricted this.

Mark.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mick West [mailto:mi...@ne...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2003 2:05 PM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
> console
>=20
>=20
> Well now, that depends on how you look at it.
>=20
> The meshes are rendered by the rendering engine, but the=20
> object that is
> comprised of meshes is created and modified by script.  For=20
> example, the
> skater is comprised of several meshes with various scales,=20
> materials and
> colors, all of which is controlled by script.
>=20
> The scripts could not render a mesh in isolation, and I can't see why
> you would want to.  But they could create a game object that just
> comprised of a mesh component, which is essentially the same=20
> thing, just
> with some useful framework.=20
>=20
> Maybe I'm not understanding your question? =20
>=20
> Mick
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gam...@li...=20
> > [mailto:gam...@li...] On=20
> > Behalf Of Mark Wayland
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 6:35 PM
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting=20
> > language on console
> >=20
> >=20
> > Mick,
> >=20
> > At what level do access your game objects/classes? Can a=20
> > script perform something like rendering a mesh or is it=20
> > completely game object centric?
> >=20
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
> >=20
> >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mick West [mailto:mi...@ne...]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2003 5:15 AM
> > > To: gam...@li...
> > > Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting=20
> language on=20
> > > console
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > We (Neversoft) discussed this at some length when starting=20
> > our first=20
> > > game for the PS2.  There was some movement towards using a=20
> > > pre-existing script language (Java was mentioned).  However=20
> > I decided=20
> > > we should roll
> > > our own, as we'd need control over what it was doing.
> > >=20
> > > I'm now insanely glad we did this.  The fine control we get over=20
> > > debugging, memory usage and  performance is invaluable. =20
> > Those kind of=20
> > > things may be less of a consideration on the PC, where you=20
> > have memory=20
> > > and CPU cycles to spare.  But on the PS2, I feel that if=20
> > we'd used a=20
> > > pre-existing language, then we would have had a lot more=20
> > trouble than=20
> > > we did.
> > >=20
> > > It does not take that long either.  We shipped THPS3 less=20
> > than a year=20
> > > after we started programming our scripting language.
> > >=20
> > > Of course, YMMV, it depends on what you use the script
> > > language for.  We
> > > have over 4MB of script, and a lot of the game's high=20
> level logic is
> > > running in script, and a lot of the high level data is held=20
> > in script
> > > data structures.
> > >=20
> > > Anyway, the original questioner intends to generate their=20
> > scripts from=20
> > > UML diagrams.  This approach is inherently doomed, so the actual=20
> > > choice of script language is irrelevant.
> > >=20
> > > Mick
> > >=20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: gam...@li...
> > > > [mailto:gam...@li...] On=20
> > > > Behalf Of Ron Hay
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:04 AM
> > > > To: gam...@li...
> > > > Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting=20
> > > > language on console
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > Has anyone on the list actually thought deeply about which
> > > scripting
> > > > language they choose?  If
> > > > so, care to share your thoughts?  We're in the middle of
> > > choosing the
> > > > language, and Lua seems
> > > > to be our current top pick.  The team member that is in=20
> charge of
> > > > scripting is the type of person
> > > > that just likes to pick and go, so I'm worried that there=20
> > may be a=20
> > > > better alternative out there...
> > > >=20
> > > >   Ron
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > > > Welcome to geek heaven.
> > > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list=20
> > > > Gam...@li...
> > > >=20
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> > > Archives:=20
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?> forum_id=3D553
> > >=20
>=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > Welcome to geek heaven.
> > http://thinkgeek.com/sf=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list=20
> > Gam...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> > Archives: =
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D553
> >=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SlickEdit Inc. Develop an=20
> edge. The most comprehensive and flexible code editor you can=20
> use. Code faster. C/C++, C#, Java, HTML, XML, many more. FREE=20
> 30-Day Trial. www.slickedit.com/sourceforge=20
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list=20
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU3
>=20



-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: SlickEdit Inc. Develop an edge.
The most comprehensive and flexible code editor you can use.
Code faster. C/C++, C#, Java, HTML, XML, many more. FREE 30-Day Trial.
www.slickedit.com/sourceforge
_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
Archives:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D553

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Mick W. <mi...@ne...>]

Well now, that depends on how you look at it.

The meshes are rendered by the rendering engine, but the object that is
comprised of meshes is created and modified by script.  For example, the
skater is comprised of several meshes with various scales, materials and
colors, all of which is controlled by script.

The scripts could not render a mesh in isolation, and I can't see why
you would want to.  But they could create a game object that just
comprised of a mesh component, which is essentially the same thing, just
with some useful framework. 

Maybe I'm not understanding your question?  

Mick

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li... 
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> Behalf Of Mark Wayland
> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 6:35 PM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting 
> language on console
> 
> 
> Mick,
> 
> At what level do access your game objects/classes? Can a 
> script perform something like rendering a mesh or is it 
> completely game object centric?
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mick West [mailto:mi...@ne...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2003 5:15 AM
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on 
> > console
> > 
> > 
> > We (Neversoft) discussed this at some length when starting 
> our first 
> > game for the PS2.  There was some movement towards using a 
> > pre-existing script language (Java was mentioned).  However 
> I decided 
> > we should roll
> > our own, as we'd need control over what it was doing.
> > 
> > I'm now insanely glad we did this.  The fine control we get over 
> > debugging, memory usage and  performance is invaluable.  
> Those kind of 
> > things may be less of a consideration on the PC, where you 
> have memory 
> > and CPU cycles to spare.  But on the PS2, I feel that if 
> we'd used a 
> > pre-existing language, then we would have had a lot more 
> trouble than 
> > we did.
> > 
> > It does not take that long either.  We shipped THPS3 less 
> than a year 
> > after we started programming our scripting language.
> > 
> > Of course, YMMV, it depends on what you use the script
> > language for.  We
> > have over 4MB of script, and a lot of the game's high level logic is
> > running in script, and a lot of the high level data is held 
> in script
> > data structures.
> > 
> > Anyway, the original questioner intends to generate their 
> scripts from 
> > UML diagrams.  This approach is inherently doomed, so the actual 
> > choice of script language is irrelevant.
> > 
> > Mick
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: gam...@li...
> > > [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> > > Behalf Of Ron Hay
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:04 AM
> > > To: gam...@li...
> > > Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting 
> > > language on console
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Has anyone on the list actually thought deeply about which
> > scripting
> > > language they choose?  If
> > > so, care to share your thoughts?  We're in the middle of
> > choosing the
> > > language, and Lua seems
> > > to be our current top pick.  The team member that is in charge of
> > > scripting is the type of person
> > > that just likes to pick and go, so I'm worried that there 
> may be a 
> > > better alternative out there...
> > > 
> > >   Ron
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > > Welcome to geek heaven.
> > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list 
> > > Gam...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> > > Archives: 
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?> forum_id=553
> > > 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > Welcome to geek heaven.
> > http://thinkgeek.com/sf 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list 
> > Gam...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> > Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553
> > 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SlickEdit Inc. Develop an 
> edge. The most comprehensive and flexible code editor you can 
> use. Code faster. C/C++, C#, Java, HTML, XML, many more. FREE 
> 30-Day Trial. www.slickedit.com/sourceforge 
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list 
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU3
> 

Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Brett B. <res...@ga...>]

There's also a middle-ground approach you might consider, and I would be
curious as to other peoples experience in implenting, and that is using
libraries.  In our case the programmers are doing the scripting, performance
is a high priority, and we can't compile the game code into the engine
because there is too much.  Our plan is to build a lib from normal C source
for the target platform and runtime link it (similar to CodeWarrior overlays
on PS2).  This translates to ELF for GC and PS2 and COFF for PC.  It is
pretty straightforward so far, but memory handling for function variables is
looking like it will give us some headaches.  We may impose some rules on
how memory is used and declared to solve that, but has anybody implemented
this before?
Brett
GameBrains

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Hay" <rh...@cy...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console


> Has anyone on the list actually thought deeply about which scripting
> language they choose?  If
> so, care to share your thoughts?  We're in the middle of choosing the
> language, and Lua seems
> to be our current top pick.  The team member that is in charge of
> scripting is the type of person
> that just likes to pick and go, so I'm worried that there may be a
> better alternative out there...
>
>   Ron
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Mark W. <Mwa...@to...>]

Mick,

At what level do access your game objects/classes? Can a script perform
something like rendering a mesh or is it completely game object centric?

Cheers,
Mark


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mick West [mailto:mi...@ne...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2003 5:15 AM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
> console
>=20
>=20
> We (Neversoft) discussed this at some length when starting our first
> game for the PS2.  There was some movement towards using a=20
> pre-existing
> script language (Java was mentioned).  However I decided we=20
> should roll
> our own, as we'd need control over what it was doing.
>=20
> I'm now insanely glad we did this.  The fine control we get over
> debugging, memory usage and  performance is invaluable.  Those kind of
> things may be less of a consideration on the PC, where you have memory
> and CPU cycles to spare.  But on the PS2, I feel that if we'd used a
> pre-existing language, then we would have had a lot more=20
> trouble than we
> did.
>=20
> It does not take that long either.  We shipped THPS3 less than a year
> after we started programming our scripting language.
>=20
> Of course, YMMV, it depends on what you use the script=20
> language for.  We
> have over 4MB of script, and a lot of the game's high level logic is
> running in script, and a lot of the high level data is held in script
> data structures.
>=20
> Anyway, the original questioner intends to generate their scripts from
> UML diagrams.  This approach is inherently doomed, so the=20
> actual choice
> of script language is irrelevant.
>=20
> Mick
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gam...@li...=20
> > [mailto:gam...@li...] On=20
> > Behalf Of Ron Hay
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:04 AM
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting=20
> > language on console
> >=20
> >=20
> > Has anyone on the list actually thought deeply about which=20
> scripting=20
> > language they choose?  If
> > so, care to share your thoughts?  We're in the middle of=20
> choosing the=20
> > language, and Lua seems
> > to be our current top pick.  The team member that is in charge of=20
> > scripting is the type of person
> > that just likes to pick and go, so I'm worried that there may be a=20
> > better alternative out there...
> >=20
> >   Ron
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > Welcome to geek heaven.
> > http://thinkgeek.com/sf=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list=20
> > Gam...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> > Archives: =
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D553
> >=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D553
>=20

Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[<Lag...@wa...>]

First, Thanx for all answer people send.

> We chose Python because it's a lot higher-level than Lua, and has pretty
> much every library you could ever want (want to read .ZIP files? Sure.
XTML?
> Certainly. Handy stuff like that). Java is out because we need it to run
on
> PS2, GC, XB, etc.
>

About the java question i have something:
Kaffe (www.kaffe.org) is an open source  JVM (garbage collector, native
library, multitasking)
with interpreter mode or jit which work on some processor like i386, powerPC
and mips.
It support jni interface too.

There are already an implementation for PS2 plateform, with few modification
(few weeks of work)
i think you can adapt this JVM for game cube and xbox. But i don't know if
it's viable in term of ressource and speed...

And with EmbeddedJava (java.sun.org) you can import only needed class
library for your JVM.

Other JVM are available like Japhar (www.japhar.org)...

I focus on java scripting because it's largely know with some great tools
(debugger, IDE...)
but python and lua are pretty good and they are my backup solution.

Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Ron H. <rh...@cy...>]

Mick West wrote:

>Anyway, the original questioner intends to generate their scripts from
>UML diagrams.  This approach is inherently doomed, so the actual choice
>of script language is irrelevant.
>  
>

Heh.  One of my peeves is when people have the "brilliant" idea to 
create a "graphical method to
express software".  Last I checked, text *was* a graphical method to 
express software...

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Mick W. <mi...@ne...>]

We (Neversoft) discussed this at some length when starting our first
game for the PS2.  There was some movement towards using a pre-existing
script language (Java was mentioned).  However I decided we should roll
our own, as we'd need control over what it was doing.

I'm now insanely glad we did this.  The fine control we get over
debugging, memory usage and  performance is invaluable.  Those kind of
things may be less of a consideration on the PC, where you have memory
and CPU cycles to spare.  But on the PS2, I feel that if we'd used a
pre-existing language, then we would have had a lot more trouble than we
did.

It does not take that long either.  We shipped THPS3 less than a year
after we started programming our scripting language.

Of course, YMMV, it depends on what you use the script language for.  We
have over 4MB of script, and a lot of the game's high level logic is
running in script, and a lot of the high level data is held in script
data structures.

Anyway, the original questioner intends to generate their scripts from
UML diagrams.  This approach is inherently doomed, so the actual choice
of script language is irrelevant.

Mick

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li... 
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> Behalf Of Ron Hay
> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:04 AM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting 
> language on console
> 
> 
> Has anyone on the list actually thought deeply about which scripting 
> language they choose?  If
> so, care to share your thoughts?  We're in the middle of choosing the 
> language, and Lua seems
> to be our current top pick.  The team member that is in charge of 
> scripting is the type of person
> that just likes to pick and go, so I'm worried that there may be a 
> better alternative out there...
> 
>   Ron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf 
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list 
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553
> 

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on consol e

[Simon O'C. <si...@cr...>]

> 
> We tried that with StarTopia, and found that the designers 
> have to learn the
> basics of coding and syntax anyway. If you dress it up to 
> look like English,
> they'll try and use it like English. And that leads to all sorts of
> misunderstandings. 

mmm "COBOL for games" <shudder> ;o)

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on consol e

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

We tried that with StarTopia, and found that the designers have to learn the
basics of coding and syntax anyway. If you dress it up to look like English,
they'll try and use it like English. And that leads to all sorts of
misunderstandings. StarTopia's scripting language was pretty good, but
high-maintenance, and not as powerful as we'd have liked.

We now let ours use Python, but only with the really basic features of the
language, and a restricted view of the "world". This means we've got a
ready-made language, easily extendable, good debugging tools, etc. If a
complex function needs coding, one of the coders can do it (either in Python
or C according to choice). But more and more the gameplay _coders_ are
moving to Python anyway, because it's such a nice language to do
non-speed-critical gameplay coding in.

I suspect similar arguemnts apply to Java and Lua.

We chose Python because it's a lot higher-level than Lua, and has pretty
much every library you could ever want (want to read .ZIP files? Sure. XTML?
Certainly. Handy stuff like that). Java is out because we need it to run on
PS2, GC, XB, etc.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mickael Pointier [mailto:mpo...@ed...]
> Sent: 18 February 2003 17:37
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
> console
> 
> 
> Ron Hay wrote:
> > Has anyone on the list actually thought deeply about which scripting
> > language they choose?  If
> > so, care to share your thoughts?  We're in the middle of 
> choosing the
> > language, and Lua seems
> > to be our current top pick.  The team member that is in charge of
> > scripting is the type of person
> > that just likes to pick and go, so I'm worried that there may be a
> > better alternative out there...
> 
> Well, I would not like to use a generic language to make 
> in-game scripting
> language. Instead I would better make a dedicated small minimalistic
> language specially made for that particular game.
> 
> The reason is that I think that asking to designers to use 
> some generic
> language with non intuitive syntax (what are these ";" "{" 
> and "}" ???),
> very non expressive content, side effects... is not really a 
> good choice.
> 
> 
>     Mickael Pointier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553
> 

Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Mickael P. <mpo...@ed...>]

Ron Hay wrote:
> Has anyone on the list actually thought deeply about which scripting
> language they choose?  If
> so, care to share your thoughts?  We're in the middle of choosing the
> language, and Lua seems
> to be our current top pick.  The team member that is in charge of
> scripting is the type of person
> that just likes to pick and go, so I'm worried that there may be a
> better alternative out there...

Well, I would not like to use a generic language to make in-game scripting
language. Instead I would better make a dedicated small minimalistic
language specially made for that particular game.

The reason is that I think that asking to designers to use some generic
language with non intuitive syntax (what are these ";" "{" and "}" ???),
very non expressive content, side effects... is not really a good choice.


    Mickael Pointier

Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Ron H. <rh...@cy...>]

Has anyone on the list actually thought deeply about which scripting 
language they choose?  If
so, care to share your thoughts?  We're in the middle of choosing the 
language, and Lua seems
to be our current top pick.  The team member that is in charge of 
scripting is the type of person
that just likes to pick and go, so I'm worried that there may be a 
better alternative out there...

  Ron

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on consol e

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

We've been using Python and SWIG for a while on all three consoles. =
It's
pretty good.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Lagarde S=E9bastien [mailto:Lag...@wa...]
Sent: 17 February 2003 22:33
To: gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console


Hello all,

I looking for some information on existing embedded scripting language =
on
console (ps2, gc).

My goal is to design some behavior with UML state diagram then =
generating
the code for the
scripting language. I have found that Java or python are appropriate
language (with rational rose , together soft etc...)
but after some research i have this result:

java is use in Vampire the masquarade base on embedded java language =
and
JNI. But no information
on other game (PC or console).
Is java interpreter (jvm) can be support on console because the lack of
ressource ?
(Nota: About vampire, a presentatoin of this script engine have been =
made in
GDC99 by Robert Huebner of Nihilistic but the slide are now =
unavailable, is
someone have it or can send a link, thanks)

python is use in many PC game , again i found only few console game =
base on
python scripting
but i think some use it.

I want use a popular existing language in order to each new team member =
are
quickly functionnal
so no proprietary language.

The lua language seem to be a good alternative for embeded scripting on
console (light an easy)
but there is no support for UML stuff.

I already know some web site on glue code for scripting language (SWIG) =
but=20
i think the major problem is beetween the virtual machine and the need =
of
ressource and on this point
few information is available.

In last is multithreading in scripting language (like java) can be =
emulate
on console
for a real-time game ?
Is there programmer that have already implement one of this language =
and can
give feedback ?
Thank a lot

Sorry for my english
Best regards.
----------------------------------
Lagarde S=E9bastien
junior programmer
Neko

Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[BG <arc...@ma...>]

On Monday, February 17, 2003, at 07:17  PM, J. Grant wrote:
> Mario 64 (all those years ago!) also used lisp for in game code if I  
> remember correctly.
>
> Cheers
>
> JG

Actually it's N-World that was written in Lisp (Allegro CL), which in  
turn was used in the development of Mario64 (along with FFVII, and Gran  
Turismo)...

On Monday, February 17, 2003, at 06:45  PM,  
chr...@pl... wrote:
> In summary, because Lisp rules! ;)

Agreed.  However...

> The drawback is, I'd think, that the number of programmers proficient
> in Lisp is somewhat smaller than the number of C-savvy programmers.

That's a wee bit of an understatement don'tcha think?  Especially since  
whenever I've brought it up with other programmers who quickly respond  
with a resounding "blech" followed by horror accounts of their first  
years in CS...  Finding the exceptions when it comes to Lisp are indeed  
difficult...

> Well, in Naughty Dog's case, the whole game is written in their Lisp
> version, so they are indeed "scripting" in the same language the engine
> is written in.

Yeah, they constructed GOAL using Allegro CL also...

On Monday, February 17, 2003, at 05:42  PM,  
phi...@pl... wrote:
> PS I do wonder why Lisp seems to be such a popular language to base  
> custom
> solutions on though (both Halo and Jak & Daxter). Most programmers I  
> know
> get headaches from Lisp syntax that I thought would fry the average
> designer. Is there something I'm missing?

Aside from my response, I think Christer said it best: Lisp rules!  
(sans winkie)

------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
--------------------------
Copyright 2002 archie4oz email -- End User Licensing Agreement -- By  
reading the above post you grant archie4oz (email author of said listed  
party name) the right to take your money, eat your cat, and urinate on  
your house. In addition you give archie4oz (above mentioned) the right  
to use your sister in anyway he sees fit. If you do not agree to these  
terms then DO NOT READ the above email.

Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[J. G. <jg-...@jg...>]

Mario 64 (all those years ago!) also used lisp for in game code if I 
remember correctly.

Cheers

JG


Chris Butcher (BUNGIE) wrote:
> We used a Lisp-like scripting system in Halo that was completely custom and in-house.
> 
>  
> 
> I can't overstate the advantages of having complete code-level control over your scripting system. Being able to add custom data types and control scheduling at a very fine level of granularity was pretty crucial for us.
> 
>  
> 
> --
> 
> Chris Butcher
> 
> Rendering & Simulation Lead
> 
> Halo 2 | Bungie Studios
> 
> bu...@bu...
> 
>  

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[<chr...@pl...>]

Phil said:
>If programmers are going to be scripting, why not just let them use the
>same language the engine is written in?

and

>PS I do wonder why Lisp seems to be such a popular language to base custom
>solutions on though (both Halo and Jak & Daxter). Most programmers I know
>get headaches from Lisp syntax that I thought would fry the average
>designer. Is there something I'm missing?

Well, in Naughty Dog's case, the whole game is written in their Lisp
version, so they are indeed "scripting" in the same language the engine
is written in.

I don't know how much scripting their designers do, but I think their
programmers do a large part of it.

Syntax aside, Lisp is really ideal as a "scripting" language as it is
trivial to extend, can be changed on-the-fly at run time, is a higher-
level language, allows code to be treated as data, etc. On top of this,
compiled Lisp is just about as efficient as C/C++, see:

http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/craps.shtml

In summary, because Lisp rules! ;)


The drawback is, I'd think, that the number of programmers proficient
in Lisp is somewhat smaller than the number of C-savvy programmers.


Christer Ericson
Sony Computer Entertainment, Santa Monica

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[<phi...@pl...>]

You should carefully consider the technical abilities of your designers=

when making this decision.

From personal experience, and observing other projects; the more like a=

full-blown programming language your scripting system is, the more like=
ly
the programmers will end up writing the actual scripts. If programmers =
are
going to be scripting, why not just let them use the same language the
engine is written in?

Of course, I may just have had primarily non-technial designer experien=
ces.
From the "heated debate" on the algorithms list a couple of weeks back,=

it's safe to assume that there are more technical designers out there, =
so
your mileage will almost certainly vary.

Cheers,
Phil

PS I do wonder why Lisp seems to be such a popular language to base cus=
tom
solutions on though (both Halo and Jak & Daxter). Most programmers I kn=
ow
get headaches from Lisp syntax that I thought would fry the average
designer. Is there something I'm missing?




                                                                       =
                                                                  =20
                    "Michael Pohoreski"                                =
                                                                  =20
                    <MPo...@cy...>                    To:  =
   <gam...@li...>                  =20
                    Sent by:                                      cc:  =
                                                                  =20
                    gam...@li...urc       Fax t=
o:                                                                =20
                    eforge.net                                    Subje=
ct:     RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on=20
                                                                   cons=
ole                                                               =20
                                                                       =
                                                                  =20
                    02/17/2003 04:41 PM                                =
                                                                  =20
                    Please respond to gamedevlists-consoles            =
                                                                  =20
                                                                       =
                                                                  =20
                                                                       =
                                                                  =20





Hello  Lagarde

On one  of our past games, we=A0used Java & C++.=A0 The main issues we =
ran
into were:
-  Duplicated entity structs in both Java & C++.
- The  run-time performance of switching back to and forth was  expensi=
ve.
- The  designers just didn't have the experience writing solid, fast co=
de,
compared to  the years the programmers did.

Needless to say, we'll be looking at a scripting system very carefully
before going back to it.=A0 We're leaning towards programmers writting
everything in C++, but with more of a data driven approach.

If I'm  not mistaken, one of the Jax and Dextor games used a lisp  syst=
em.
(Check=A0the post mortem's in Game Developer).=A0There was an  older ga=
me,
Abuse, by Dave Taylor's crack.dot that was written in Lisp as well.

Cheers
-----Original Message-----
From: Lagarde  S=E9bastien [mailto:Lag...@wa...]
Sent: Monday, February 17,  2003 5:33 PM
To:  gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-Consoles]  question: Embedded scripting language on consol=
e



I looking for some information on existing  embedded scripting language=
 on
console (ps2, gc).

My goal is to design some behavior with UML state  diagram then generat=
ing
the code for the
scripting language. I have found that Java or  python are=A0appropriate=

language=A0(with rational rose , together soft  etc...)
but after some research i have this  result:

java is use in Vampire the masquarade base on  embedded java language a=
nd
JNI. But no information
on other game (PC or console).
Is java interpreter (jvm) can be support on  console because the lack o=
f
ressource ?

python is use in many PC game , again i found  only few console game ba=
se
on python scripting
but i think some use it.

I want use a popular existing language in order  to each new team membe=
r
are quickly functionnal
so no proprietary language.

In last is multithreading in scripting language  (like java)=A0can be e=
mulate
on console
for a real-time game ?


=

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Michael P. <MPo...@cy...>]

Hello Lagarde
=20
On one of our past games, we used Java & C++.  The main issues we ran
into were:
- Duplicated entity structs in both Java & C++.
- The run-time performance of switching back to and forth was expensive.
- The designers just didn't have the experience writing solid, fast
code, compared to the years the programmers did.
=20
Needless to say, we'll be looking at a scripting system very carefully
before going back to it.  We're leaning towards programmers writting
everything in C++, but with more of a data driven approach.
=20
If I'm not mistaken, one of the Jax and Dextor games used a lisp system.
(Check the post mortem's in Game Developer). There was an older game,
Abuse, by Dave Taylor's crack.dot that was written in Lisp as well.
=20
Cheers

	-----Original Message-----
	From: Lagarde S=E9bastien [mailto:Lag...@wa...]=20
	Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 5:33 PM
	To: gam...@li...
	Subject: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
console
=09
=09
=09
	I looking for some information on existing embedded scripting
language on console (ps2, gc).
	=20
	My goal is to design some behavior with UML state diagram then
generating the code for the
	scripting language. I have found that Java or python are
appropriate language (with rational rose , together soft etc...)
	but after some research i have this result:
	=20
	java is use in Vampire the masquarade base on embedded java
language and JNI. But no information
	on other game (PC or console).
	Is java interpreter (jvm) can be support on console because the
lack of ressource ?
	=20
	python is use in many PC game , again i found only few console
game base on python scripting
	but i think some use it.
	=20
	I want use a popular existing language in order to each new team
member are quickly functionnal
	so no proprietary language.
	=20
	In last is multithreading in scripting language (like java) can
be emulate on console
	for a real-time game ?
	=20

[GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[<Lag...@wa...>]

Hello all,

I looking for some information on existing embedded scripting language =
on console (ps2, gc).

My goal is to design some behavior with UML state diagram then =
generating the code for the
scripting language. I have found that Java or python are appropriate =
language (with rational rose , together soft etc...)
but after some research i have this result:

java is use in Vampire the masquarade base on embedded java language and =
JNI. But no information
on other game (PC or console).
Is java interpreter (jvm) can be support on console because the lack of =
ressource ?
(Nota: About vampire, a presentatoin of this script engine have been =
made in GDC99 by Robert Huebner of Nihilistic but the slide are now =
unavailable, is someone have it or can send a link, thanks)

python is use in many PC game , again i found only few console game base =
on python scripting
but i think some use it.

I want use a popular existing language in order to each new team member =
are quickly functionnal
so no proprietary language.

The lua language seem to be a good alternative for embeded scripting on =
console (light an easy)
but there is no support for UML stuff.

I already know some web site on glue code for scripting language (SWIG) =
but=20
i think the major problem is beetween the virtual machine and the need =
of ressource and on this point
few information is available.

In last is multithreading in scripting language (like java) can be =
emulate on console
for a real-time game ?
Is there programmer that have already implement one of this language and =
can give feedback ?
Thank a lot

Sorry for my english
Best regards.
----------------------------------
Lagarde S=E9bastien
junior programmer
Neko

RE: [GD-Consoles] Test

[John A. Jr. <jo...@ir...>]

Certainly there's some general knowledge of the different hardwares that is
applicable for us all to discuss.  Although I'm more of a listener than a
converstation starter, I'd like to hear what people have experienced doing
multi-platform titles, without specifics to violate an NDA of course.

Anyway, just my thoughts at the moment...

-crombie


-----Original Message-----
From: Ma...@ir... [mailto:Ma...@ir...]On
Behalf Of Andrew Griffiths
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 8:12 AM
To: GameDev Console List
Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] Test


does this list no traffic because all console developers aren't allowed to
discuss anything because of NDAs ? ;)  if so...real shame!

Each console has their private newgroups, but for people interested in cross
platform issues between the major consoles this sucks.  This would be the
ideal place to talk about all consoles and their issues, but how can that be
possible with the NDAs :(

Andrew



-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.NET email is sponsored by: Thawte.com
Understand how to protect your customers personal information by
implementing
SSL on your Apache Web Server. Click here to get our FREE Thawte Apache
Guide: http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0029en
_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
Archives:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553

RE: [GD-Consoles] Test

[Wayne C. <wc...@re...>]

> does this list no traffic because all console developers aren't allowed to
> discuss anything because of NDAs ? ;)  if so...real shame!
> 
> Each console has their private newgroups, but for people interested in
> cross
> platform issues between the major consoles this sucks.  This would be the
> ideal place to talk about all consoles and their issues, but how can that
> be
> possible with the NDAs :(

Don't know why there isn't much traffic, but as for NDA's, much of the
details of the PS2 are publicly available (partly due to the Linux kit
release), I'm sure some of the Sony guys are on here too, so there isn't too
much you couldn't talk about.

I'm not sure about the NDA's for Nintendo and Microsoft. But I'm sure as
long as it isn't specific details about their machines there isn't much
they'd dislike people talking about (unless you say their machines are crap,
but they're not (phew ducked away from that one quickly :)).

Probably most issues people talk about are engineering and algorithms
related which have their own lists.

Wayney
"I'm sure at least 2% of my mails are not inane babble!" - Wayne Coles, 2003

-Virus scanned and cleared ok

Re: [GD-Consoles] Test

[Andrew G. <an...@aw...>]

does this list no traffic because all console developers aren't allowed to
discuss anything because of NDAs ? ;)  if so...real shame!

Each console has their private newgroups, but for people interested in cross
platform issues between the major consoles this sucks.  This would be the
ideal place to talk about all consoles and their issues, but how can that be
possible with the NDAs :(

Andrew

[GD-Consoles] Test

[Brian H. <ho...@py...>]

ignore

RE: [GD-Consoles] GCC on Dreamcast and PS2

[Brett B. \(GameBrains\) <res...@ga...>]

Brian,
You probably know this already, but the PS2 Linux Kit
(http://playstation2-linux.com) has all the build tools and doc and you
could get what you want from there I think.  Meanwhile, in case it
helps, CodeWarrior defines all of these in the prefix file presumably
indicating you need to set these in the configuration file.

/* MIPSEL */
#define MIPSEL
#define _MIPSEL
#define __MIPSEL__

/* R5900 */
#define R5900
#define _R5900
#define __R5900__
/* ee */
#define	__ee__

Cheers,
Brett

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li... 
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> Behalf Of brian hook
> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 11:17 AM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Consoles] GCC on Dreamcast and PS2
> 
> 
> Okay, a little bit of an odd one here, but does anyone know what 
> predefined symbols GCC sets when targeting DreamCast or a PS2?
> 
> For a Dreamcast I know it sets the processor target to _SH4 (and the 
> various permuations), but I don't know if it sets a target for the 
> operating system (presumably Linux these days?).  I haven't 
> hunted down 
> a cross-compiler just yet.
> 
> For the PS2, the GCC for EE targets the MIPS R5900(?) in, I believe, 
> little-endian mode, but I can't figure out if it actually has an OS 
> target -- I don't think it does.  So I'm not sure how to 
> build a header 
> file that targets MIPSLE but that can also identify whether 
> it will be 
> on a PS2 vs. some other (?) MIPS little-endia device like the 5900.  
> I'm looking at the stuff on ps2dev.sourceforge.net (ee-gcc) and I've 
> tried sorting through the huge amount of crap in ee-gcc -dumpspecs.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Hook
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm 
> Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size!
> http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?palm0001en
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553
> 

Re: [GD-Consoles] GCC on Dreamcast and PS2

[J. G. <jg-...@jg...>]

Hi,

brian hook wrote:
> Okay, a little bit of an odd one here, but does anyone know what 
> predefined symbols GCC sets when targeting DreamCast or a PS2?
> 
> For a Dreamcast I know it sets the processor target to _SH4 (and the 
> various permuations), but I don't know if it sets a target for the 
> operating system (presumably Linux these days?).  I haven't hunted down 
> a cross-compiler just yet.

Becareful with all PS2 issues, as this toolchain is not the main release 
from GNU, it was modified by cygnus for sony with the R5900 stuff and is 
rarther old now.

> For the PS2, the GCC for EE targets the MIPS R5900(?) in, I believe, 
> little-endian mode, but I can't figure out if it actually has an OS 
> target -- I don't think it does.  

./configure --prefix=$EE --target=mips64r5900-sf-elf

So I'm not sure how to build a header
> file that targets MIPSLE but that can also identify whether it will be 
> on a PS2 vs. some other (?) MIPS little-endia device like the 5900.  
> I'm looking at the stuff on ps2dev.sourceforge.net (ee-gcc) and I've 
> tried sorting through the huge amount of crap in ee-gcc -dumpspecs.

Not sure if I follow what you are trying to achive. There is no OS 
beyond the most basic stuff in the PS2 kernel.

JG