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From: brian h. <bri...@py...> - 2002-07-02 15:00:21
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Thre are people subscribed, unfortunately this is a difficult place to have discussions because A.) most console details are under NDA and B.) there are pretty high quality private developer newsgroups hosted by NOA, Sony, etc. to address platform specific questions. The most likely candidates for serious discussion here are GBA and GP32 discussion, however those also already have lists devoted to them. So this is sortof a list without a purpose, but it seemed like a good idea at the time =) Brian |
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From: Dave O. <Da...@cl...> - 2002-07-02 14:48:50
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Jesus..you scared the hell out of me then....I came into this list for a nap -----Original Message----- From: Johann Fuchs [mailto:jo...@se...] Sent: 02 July 2002 14:47 To: gam...@li... Subject: [GD-Consoles] Nobody on this list? i subscribed 1 and a half month ago and got no email by now? is nobody subscribed or are there no questions abaout console development? wbr Yoshi |
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From: Tom F. <to...@mu...> - 2002-07-02 14:03:07
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It's just very very quiet. Tom Forsyth - purely hypothetical Muckyfoot bloke. This email is the product of your deranged imagination, and does not in any way imply existence of the author. -----Original Message----- From: Johann Fuchs [mailto:jo...@se...] Sent: 02 July 2002 14:47 To: gam...@li... Subject: [GD-Consoles] Nobody on this list? i subscribed 1 and a half month ago and got no email by now? is nobody subscribed or are there no questions abaout console development? wbr Yoshi |
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From: Johann F. <jo...@se...> - 2002-07-02 13:47:24
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i subscribed 1 and a half month ago and got no email by now? is nobody subscribed or are there no questions abaout console = development? wbr Yoshi |
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From: <ali...@nt...> - 2002-05-10 00:15:25
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> From: "R & D (GameBrains)" <res...@ga...> > Excuse the follow-up question if it is naiive :-) but > without the angles, doesn't positioning code like physics > become problematic? It is easy to look at a car bouncing > off a guardrail and calculate a reflected angle and new > heading vector from an angle, but how would I go about > doing that with matrices only? A matrix specifies 4 vectors: position, direction (local Z axis), up (local Y), and left/right (local X). You can rotate a matrix about its "axes" by multiplying it with a rotation transformation matrix. Perspective transform is another simple matrix multiply. Almost everything else is just vector maths, no need to mess around with trig functions. alistair |
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From: Mick W. <mi...@ne...> - 2002-05-10 00:05:30
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We use Matricies. A matrix implicity contains the three heading vectors
(X,Y,Z = Right, Up, At unit vectors), we then have such amusing code as
(abridged):
float dot_right_normal = Mth::DotProduct(mp_physics->m_matrix[X],normal);
float angle = acosf(dot_right_normal);
float turn_angle = angle * Script::GetFloat("Wall_Bounce_Angle_Multiplier")
* lerp; // angle away from the wall
mp_physics->m_matrix.RotateYLocal(turn_angle); // erm...
Hours of endless fun can be had with code such as this!
Angles are fine for 2d type problems.
Mick
-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of R
& D (GameBrains)
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 4:49 PM
To: Tom Forsyth; Gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] transforms
Tom,
Thanks for your note.
> We store animations as either quaternions or as Euler angles as
appropriate,
> then convert them to matrices, and _then_ we do maths with them. Never
> attempt to do maths with angles - you'll just hurt yourself on those
> singularities. :-)
>
Excuse the follow-up question if it is naiive :-) but without the angles,
doesn't positioning code like physics become problematic? It is easy to
look at a car bouncing off a guardrail and calculate a reflected angle and
new heading vector from an angle, but how would I go about doing that with
matrices only?
Thanks,
Brett
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From: R & D \(GameBrains\) <res...@ga...> - 2002-05-09 23:47:12
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Tom, Thanks for your note. =20 > We store animations as either quaternions or as Euler angles as = appropriate, > then convert them to matrices, and _then_ we do maths with them. Never > attempt to do maths with angles - you'll just hurt yourself on those > singularities. :-) >=20 Excuse the follow-up question if it is naiive :-) but without the = angles, doesn't positioning code like physics become problematic? It is = easy to look at a car bouncing off a guardrail and calculate a reflected = angle and new heading vector from an angle, but how would I go about = doing that with matrices only? Thanks, Brett |
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From: Tom F. <to...@mu...> - 2002-05-09 11:27:59
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> From: R & D (GameBrains) [mailto:res...@ga...] > > Hello, > Been quiet here for so long, thought I would post a question > :-) We are redesigning our object manager and I was > wondering how others are handling their object > transformations on modern hardware, especially machines with > hardware T&L. > > Overall, it seems to me that there has been a lot of research > on graphics algorithms, but not on scene graph management for > modern hardware. Personally, I think the hole notion of a unified "scene graph" is silly. Different objects require different methods. Don't try to unify a portal engine and a octree engine in a single big monolithic structure. It's not going to work.But that aside... > I did a Google search and couldn't find any > info on how to set up object transform managers to maximize > HW T&L, so if somebody knows of a term for this that would > help my search, please let me know. > > Meanwhile, my questions are: > 1. Is anybody using quats for everything, including game > models, etc.? We use quats to store animations, since they are compact. > 2. If so, are you building a new matrix from scratch every > frame for use by HW T&L? Yes. > 3. For those using good old matrices, are you building the > matrices from scratch each frame or updating one? We decompress quats to matrices, then composite the matrices together for things like hierarchial animations. > 4. If you are updating, does modern hardware with T&L choke > because you are accessing memory? No, why? It's maybe 20-odd matrices per person. this isn't a big problem. > 5. What are the implications of managing a whole bunch of > objects and keeping their transform matrices updated and > syncronized without chewing up performance? It's not really a huge amount of work. And it isn't as if there's any alternative. > 6. In the "old days" I built my engines to aggressively > check what angles changed and then called a function > specifically written to handle the minimal matrix update > needed. Is this still a good way to do things? I guess so, but it's frequently quicker to write straightline code with fewer conditionals. You may do 10% more work (how many of your joint angles don't change in a typical walk cycle? Not many), but that results in much simpler code and nicer memory-access patterns. On today's CPUs, conditional branches and memory accesses are your worst enemies. Multiplies are cheap. > 7. Are people still manipulating objects using an X, Y, Z > angle and then generating the matrices internally, or have > there other ways of doing this I should consider? (e.g. > grabbing Look At/Right/Up vectors directly from the matrix > and manipulating them, etc.) We store animations as either quaternions or as Euler angles as appropriate, then convert them to matrices, and _then_ we do maths with them. Never attempt to do maths with angles - you'll just hurt yourself on those singularities. :-) > Thanks! > Brett Bibby > GameBrains Tom Forsyth - purely hypothetical Muckyfoot bloke. This email is the product of your deranged imagination, and does not in any way imply existence of the author. |
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From: R & D \(GameBrains\) <res...@ga...> - 2002-05-09 08:38:03
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Hello, Been quiet here for so long, thought I would post a question :-) We are = redesigning our object manager and I was wondering how others are = handling their object transformations on modern hardware, especially = machines with hardware T&L. Overall, it seems to me that there has been a lot of research on = graphics algorithms, but not on scene graph management for modern = hardware. I did a Google search and couldn't find any info on how to = set up object transform managers to maximize HW T&L, so if somebody = knows of a term for this that would help my search, please let me know. Meanwhile, my questions are: 1. Is anybody using quats for everything, including game models, etc.? 2. If so, are you building a new matrix from scratch every frame for = use by HW T&L? 3. For those using good old matrices, are you building the matrices = from scratch each frame or updating one? 4. If you are updating, does modern hardware with T&L choke because you = are accessing memory? 5. What are the implications of managing a whole bunch of objects and = keeping their transform matrices updated and syncronized without chewing = up performance? 6. In the "old days" I built my engines to aggressively check what = angles changed and then called a function specifically written to handle = the minimal matrix update needed. Is this still a good way to do = things? 7. Are people still manipulating objects using an X, Y, Z angle and = then generating the matrices internally, or have there other ways of = doing this I should consider? (e.g. grabbing Look At/Right/Up vectors = directly from the matrix and manipulating them, etc.) Thanks! Brett Bibby GameBrains |
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From: Brian H. <bri...@py...> - 2002-03-08 19:54:07
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> If you are really interested in pursuing it, we can talk more > offline. Sure, drop me a private e-mail and let me know what you're up to. > small team. But what I found is that publishers are only > interested original ideas for GBA if it comes with another > big console sku. Otherwise, I could get port work for GBA or > sign up for a big licensed property. No original ideas on > GBA though. They don't seem to think the market is there. This pretty much mirrors what everyone says. The GBA market is radically different from older console markets. Licenses matter way, WAY more to the 13 year-old and under crowd. It's all about Britney Spears, Rug Rats, Spongebob Squarepants, Blue's Clues, Bear in the Big Blue House, PB & J Otter, Dragon Tales, etc. (can you tell I have a kid?) Kids know and identify with those characters. Older kids and young adults are far more into the fundamental gameplay, with licensing being a smaller influence. Adults only care about a license if it's Star Wars or Star Trek =) > My thought was that if you were working on developing a new > character franchise of an original property, if the idea and > concept were strong it shouldn't matter the initial sku. HAHAHAHAHAHH! We're talking about publishers, right? =) > Most properties now are developed top down. PS2 and down > port. Porting is huge with publishers these days. Unfortunately, you end up getting a mediocre game on multiple platforms instead of a great game on a single platform. Yes, there are a few exceptions, but by and large I'm not a big believer in trying to cross-develop on such disparate platforms. > So one option is to self fund and shop a virtually finished > product. Which is what most of the underground GBA scene > seems to be shooting for. We're not actively pursuing this at the time (we have PocketPC and Palm stuff that's a higher priority), but I'd like to do due diligence on it. Brian |
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From: Jeff L. <je...@da...> - 2002-03-08 19:32:31
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http://www.gbadev.org/ Has links to most of the underground stuff and lots of tutorials. I think that the emulators (though not official) are a pretty good suppliment to the official dev kit. Artists can preview without a full system. Of course I wouldn't officially recommend that :) If you are really interested in pursuing it, we can talk more offline. I got a dev-kit but due to my other console projects, I haven't got around to doing anything official with it yet. Like you, I like the idea of getting back to a small team. But what I found is that publishers are only interested original ideas for GBA if it comes with another big console sku. Otherwise, I could get port work for GBA or sign up for a big licensed property. No original ideas on GBA though. They don't seem to think the market is there. At least that's been my experience last time I did the rounds (~4 months ago). My thought was that if you were working on developing a new character franchise of an original property, if the idea and concept were strong it shouldn't matter the initial sku. Most properties now are developed top down. PS2 and down port. I figured prove the concept, characters, and flesh out the idea first for handhelds and then if there is interest in the characters, the world can always be expanded. Of course publishers do not see it that way. So one option is to self fund and shop a virtually finished product. Which is what most of the underground GBA scene seems to be shooting for. But even then I have been told likely that's just a lost leader to get publisher work. Maybe they would fit an established license or property to your game. -Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Hook" <bri...@py...> To: <gam...@li...> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 10:52 AM Subject: [GD-Consoles] GBA development > As part of our strategy of "small, cheap games", we've been pinged by a > couple folks about doing GBA development. I don't have a relationship > with Nintendo, and I don't know jack about GBA development. Is there a > good site that lists a lot of the pertinent information related to GBA > development, including PC based debuggers, tools, and emulators? > > Thanks, > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list > Gam...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles > Archives: > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553 > |
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From: Brian H. <bri...@py...> - 2002-03-08 19:16:50
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To answer myself: "Did you even try Google, dumbass?" Well, yes, I did, but somehow I kept getting warez sites and emulators. However, when I slightly rephrased my search, I hit a jackpot of interesting sites: www.gbadev.org http://boycottadvance.emuunlim.com/ http://pitel-lnx.uvis.fnt.hvu.nl/~drkfdr/gba/main.html There's quite a wealth of GBA development sites, authors, tools, etc. Of course, the question is "Why?" But I won't bother trying to answer that. Brian |
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From: Tom F. <to...@mu...> - 2002-03-08 19:14:14
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One place to start could be http://www.devrs.com/gba/ Tom Forsyth - purely hypothetical Muckyfoot bloke. This email is the product of your deranged imagination, and does not in any way imply existence of the author. > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Hook [mailto:bri...@py...] > Sent: 08 March 2002 18:53 > To: gam...@li... > Subject: [GD-Consoles] GBA development > > > As part of our strategy of "small, cheap games", we've been > pinged by a > couple folks about doing GBA development. I don't have a relationship > with Nintendo, and I don't know jack about GBA development. > Is there a > good site that lists a lot of the pertinent information related to GBA > development, including PC based debuggers, tools, and emulators? > > Thanks, > > Brian |
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From: Brian H. <bri...@py...> - 2002-03-08 18:52:45
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As part of our strategy of "small, cheap games", we've been pinged by a couple folks about doing GBA development. I don't have a relationship with Nintendo, and I don't know jack about GBA development. Is there a good site that lists a lot of the pertinent information related to GBA development, including PC based debuggers, tools, and emulators? Thanks, Brian |
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From: Dirk R. <ri...@ph...> - 2002-03-08 18:42:28
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Sorry, I stand corrected. I had one article in mind which had a (p)review of the linux for ps2 kit, but it seems, that my memory (or the article) has fooled me. Dirk -----Original Message----- From: gam...@li... [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of Brian Sharon Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 6:58 PM To: y o g i w p; gam...@li... Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] Linux for PS2 kit This doesn't appear to be correct: http://playstation2-linux.com/faq.php#Is_the_PlayStation_2_specific_hard ware --brian > -----Original Message----- > From: y o g i w p [mailto:yo...@ya...] > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 1:59 AM > To: gam...@li... > Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] Linux for PS2 kit > > (re-send, incorrectly replied to sender) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dirk Ringe <ri...@ph...> > > > The development on ps2/linux is totally different from development on > the > > raw ps2 machine. To protect its IP ps2/linux runs in a virtual machine, > ie. > > an abstraction layer to the hardware... I do not expect that anything > done > > on ps2/linux is of use on the ps2 itself. > > Gee, that's not good :( > But then what's the point of releasing the Linux kit? _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU3 |
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From: Brian S. <bs...@mi...> - 2002-03-08 17:59:06
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This doesn't appear to be correct: http://playstation2-linux.com/faq.php#Is_the_PlayStation_2_specific_hard ware --brian > -----Original Message----- > From: y o g i w p [mailto:yo...@ya...] > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 1:59 AM > To: gam...@li... > Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] Linux for PS2 kit >=20 > (re-send, incorrectly replied to sender) >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dirk Ringe <ri...@ph...> >=20 > > The development on ps2/linux is totally different from development on > the > > raw ps2 machine. To protect its IP ps2/linux runs in a virtual machine, > ie. > > an abstraction layer to the hardware... I do not expect that anything > done > > on ps2/linux is of use on the ps2 itself. >=20 > Gee, that's not good :( > But then what's the point of releasing the Linux kit? |
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From: xark <xa...@li...> - 2002-03-08 17:58:26
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On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Dirk Ringe wrote: > The development on ps2/linux is totally different from development on the > raw ps2 machine. To protect its IP ps2/linux runs in a virtual machine, ie. > an abstraction layer to the hardware... I do not expect that anything done > on ps2/linux is of use on the ps2 itself. > > Dirk I don't think this is totally accurate. Obviously you aren't going to make booting PS2 game discs with PS2 Linux, but I don't think it runs on a "virtual machine". The only thing locked-up AFAIK is the I/O Processor (IOP). The IOP runs a closed "driver" that Linux talks to for I/O and sound. On the EE side, you supposedly have _full_ access to the PS2 EE CPU (including VU0, VU1) and the graphical hardware (VIF, GIF, GS etc.). There is a public site Sony has set up for discussion and information about PS2 Linux, check it out: http://playstation2-linux.com/ and the especially the FAQ at http://playstation2-linux.com/faq.php Even if a PS2 doesn't make the "ultimate" Linux workstation, it at least sounds like a fun (and legal) way to get some PS2 development experience. -Xark |
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From: y o g i w p <yo...@ya...> - 2002-03-08 09:58:00
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(re-send, incorrectly replied to sender) ----- Original Message ----- From: Dirk Ringe <ri...@ph...> > The development on ps2/linux is totally different from development on the > raw ps2 machine. To protect its IP ps2/linux runs in a virtual machine, ie. > an abstraction layer to the hardware... I do not expect that anything done > on ps2/linux is of use on the ps2 itself. Gee, that's not good :( But then what's the point of releasing the Linux kit? |
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From: Dirk R. <ri...@ph...> - 2002-03-07 14:59:12
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The development on ps2/linux is totally different from development on the raw ps2 machine. To protect its IP ps2/linux runs in a virtual machine, ie. an abstraction layer to the hardware... I do not expect that anything done on ps2/linux is of use on the ps2 itself. Dirk -----Original Message----- From: gam...@li... [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of y o g i w p Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 3:14 PM To: gam...@li... Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] Linux for PS2 kit ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Boberg <sbo...@te...> > I guess you could, but I hear it is very slow compared to a "bare" > PS2, due the the MMU setup they use (I heard figures as high as 4x > slower on the EE side - don't know how true that is). Also, 32MB really > is not enough to compile, but I suppose you could try cross-compiling > from a PC. I see. Where can I look for more info like this? > Personally, I think you would be better off just prototyping on a PC. Well, let's say I'm developing an experimental engine, and just curious how well it would port to PS2. What do you think, is it worth it? Thanks. _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553 |
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From: y o g i w p <yo...@ya...> - 2002-03-07 14:14:04
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----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Boberg <sbo...@te...> > I guess you could, but I hear it is very slow compared to a "bare" > PS2, due the the MMU setup they use (I heard figures as high as 4x > slower on the EE side - don't know how true that is). Also, 32MB really > is not enough to compile, but I suppose you could try cross-compiling > from a PC. I see. Where can I look for more info like this? > Personally, I think you would be better off just prototyping on a PC. Well, let's say I'm developing an experimental engine, and just curious how well it would port to PS2. What do you think, is it worth it? Thanks. |
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From: Stefan B. <sbo...@te...> - 2002-03-07 13:00:08
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> Simple question regarding the Linux for PS2 kit: Can I really develop > engine/game prototypes on it? I guess you could, but I hear it is very slow compared to a "bare" PS2, due the the MMU setup they use (I heard figures as high as 4x slower on the EE side - don't know how true that is). Also, 32MB really is not enough to compile, but I suppose you could try cross-compiling from a PC. Personally, I think you would be better off just prototyping on a PC. -- Stefan Boberg - R&D Manager, Team17 Software Ltd. bo...@te... |
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From: y o g i w p <yo...@ya...> - 2002-03-07 10:25:43
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Simple question regarding the Linux for PS2 kit: Can I really develop engine/game prototypes on it? TIA. |
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From: <chr...@pl...> - 2002-03-06 19:42:16
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The PS2 doesn't have direct stencil buffer support, but with a little trickery you can implement one anyway. There's ample discussion in the Sony newsgroups about this, as well as documentation on the website. Christer Ericson Sony Computer Entertainment, Santa Monica |--------+-------------------------------------------------> | | "Lionel Fumery" <li...@mi...> | | | Sent by: | | | gam...@li...urc| | | eforge.net | | | | | | | | | 03/06/2002 06:52 AM | | | | |--------+-------------------------------------------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: <Gam...@li...> | | cc: | | Subject: [GD-Consoles] Stencil buffer replacement ? | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Hello, I usually like stencil buffers, for mirroring or shadowing a scene. Ok for the Xbox, which supports stencils buffers. But what about Playstation2 and GameCube ? Is it possible to use stencil buffers algo with those supports ? Thank you in advance for any comment, LiF _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553 |
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From: <phi...@pl...> - 2002-03-06 19:42:12
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While difficult, fiddly, and non-obvious, it is certainly possible to do
stencil buffer shadows on the PS2. IIRC the developer newsgroups have all
the info.
Phil
"Lionel Fumery" <li...@mi...>
Sent by: To: <Gam...@li...>
gam...@li...urc cc:
eforge.net Subject: [GD-Consoles] Stencil buffer replacement ?
03/06/2002 06:52 AM
Hello,
I usually like stencil buffers, for mirroring or shadowing a scene.
Ok for the Xbox, which supports stencils buffers.
But what about Playstation2 and GameCube ? Is it possible to use stencil
buffers algo with those supports ?
Thank you in advance for any comment,
LiF
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Archives:
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From: Lionel F. <li...@mi...> - 2002-03-06 14:51:56
|
Hello, I usually like stencil buffers, for mirroring or shadowing a scene. Ok for the Xbox, which supports stencils buffers. But what about Playstation2 and GameCube ? Is it possible to use stencil buffers algo with those supports ? Thank you in advance for any comment, LiF |
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