gamedevlists-consoles — List for discussing game development on consoles like the PS2 and XBox

Re: [GD-Consoles] Generic MP3 Player for Playstation 2

[Leath M. <Lea...@en...>]

> > I suspect there would be a market for such a thing. Imagine a WinAmp style
> > program with really neat visualization stuff. Once broadband for PS2 is
> > available then downloadable updates (stored on mem carts or HDs), user made
> > plug-ins, and streaming MP3s would also be really cool. I know I'd think
> > about buying such a thing :)

There is definately a market for this right now -- we did a small survey not
long ago with several of the larger appliance centers and it turned out (here
at least) that 25% of people looking at DVD players for the home wanted a
player that would play MP3 CD's burnt with a PC...

It surprises me Sony haven't looked at this yet as they seem to be really
pushing the PS2 as a generic home entertainment component to play games &
DVD's & CD's -- but not MP3's?
 
> Interesting, this is exactly what Modern Groove was trying to do.  They
> picked up the Ministry of Sound and then made a MP3 player / vis
> program.  Unfortunately Modern Groove is no longer with us so I don't
> know if this product will ever hit the market and if it does I think
> they only manage to accquire a publishing deal in Europe.  Here's the

I get the impression from that link that they were just playing a heap of
music that was contained on a static DVD that came with the program... I am
looking at something a little more generic...

Now where is that Sony tech. support number...

Leathal.

Re: [GD-Consoles] GameCube considerations ?

[Matthew B. <mat...@ma...>]

>Date: Fri,  5 Oct 2001 19:00:25 -0700
>From: "Research Development" <res...@ma...>
>
>THe GameCube uses a modified PowerPC processor which is big-endian 
>byte ordering, whereas the Xbox, PS2 and PC use little-endian byte 
>ordering.  If your code can run on a Mac under OpenGL you would be 
>in good shape.

I don't know what the differences between the Gamecube's CPU and
regular PowerPCs is but all the others allow you to to switch
endian mode. Even if you can't do that (I think that may require
supervisor mode) there are instructions to load and store in
both big and little endian format. I'd guess that the compiler
for it will have intrinsics defined that will let you use this
feature if Gamecube's CPU supports it. The other PowerPC compilers
I've used do that.

Matt Browne
-- 

Re: [GD-Consoles] GameCube considerations ?

[Research D. <res...@ma...>]

THe GameCube uses a modified PowerPC processor which is big-endian byte ordering, whereas the Xbox, PS2 and PC use little-endian byte ordering.  If your code can run on a Mac under OpenGL you would be in good shape.

Hope that helps.
Brett Bibby
GameBrains

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Lionel Fumery" <li...@mi...>
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:20:44 +0200

>Hello,
>
>I will have to port soon our game engines for the GameCube console. At this
>time, I don't have any GameCube dev kit.
>Our engines are built for XBox, (C++, shaders support, lot of computations
>done by GPU and not by CPU, huge levels, ...)
>
>Without going into NDA discussions, could any experienced people give me
>some general advice to prepare the work ? What are the common mistakes, ...
>
>Thank you in advance for any help,
>
>Lionel.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
>Gam...@li...
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
>

Re: [GD-Consoles] Generic MP3 Player for Playstation 2

[Arn <ar...@bl...>]

Tom Hubina wrote:
> [..] 
> I suspect there would be a market for such a thing. Imagine a WinAmp style
> program with really neat visualization stuff. Once broadband for PS2 is
> available then downloadable updates (stored on mem carts or HDs), user made
> plug-ins, and streaming MP3s would also be really cool. I know I'd think
> about buying such a thing :)

Interesting, this is exactly what Modern Groove was trying to do.  They
picked up the Ministry of Sound and then made a MP3 player / vis
program.  Unfortunately Modern Groove is no longer with us so I don't
know if this product will ever hit the market and if it does I think
they only manage to accquire a publishing deal in Europe.  Here's the
link:

http://ps2.ign.com/previews/16282.html


Arn

RE: [GD-Consoles] STLPort | Boost

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

Template support is fine on PS2 these days (at least with GCC).

Jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Tom Spilman
Sent: 05 October 2001 15:54
To: gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-Consoles] STLPort | Boost


    We are evaluating a move to STLPort and Boost for our future projects.
Has anyone had any experience with either of these libraries on a console?
Do they have good template support on compilers for console platforms?
Thanks.  Tom


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[GD-Consoles] STLPort | Boost

[Tom S. <tsp...@mo...>]

    We are evaluating a move to STLPort and Boost for our future projects.
Has anyone had any experience with either of these libraries on a console?
Do they have good template support on compilers for console platforms?
Thanks.  Tom

[GD-Consoles] GameCube considerations ?

[Lionel F. <li...@mi...>]

Hello,

I will have to port soon our game engines for the GameCube console. At this
time, I don't have any GameCube dev kit.
Our engines are built for XBox, (C++, shaders support, lot of computations
done by GPU and not by CPU, huge levels, ...)

Without going into NDA discussions, could any experienced people give me
some general advice to prepare the work ? What are the common mistakes, ...

Thank you in advance for any help,

Lionel.

Re: [GD-Consoles] Generic MP3 Player for Playstation 2

[Tom H. <to...@3d...>]

At 12:30 AM 10/5/2001, Jason G Doig wrote:
>The problem comes when you want a consumer machine to boot up a program
>to do it, because of course without a naughty modchip (which invalidates
>your warranty and will make us take you off our Christmas card list) then
>a machine will simply not boot anything other than a legitimately duplicated
>PS2 CD or DVD.  You can't get an ordinary CD writer to make CDs which boot.

This is very true. However, there may be a way to boot up with a legitimate 
CD/DVD that contains the MP3 decoder/playback program and then swap out 
that disk for a CD-R containing a bunch of MP3s. As I understand it, there 
difficulties involved with being able to swap disks after boot, but it 
isn't impossible (GameShark does it).

I suspect there would be a market for such a thing. Imagine a WinAmp style 
program with really neat visualization stuff. Once broadband for PS2 is 
available then downloadable updates (stored on mem carts or HDs), user made 
plug-ins, and streaming MP3s would also be really cool. I know I'd think 
about buying such a thing :)

>Well I've sort of answered this above. However, I'd just like to make a
>friendly suggestion that this list doesn't launch into a discussion of
>bypassing the PS2's copy protection methods :)

Such discussions would be "bad" and defeat the purpose of the list.

Tom

Re: [GD-Consoles] Generic MP3 Player for Playstation 2

[Jason G D. <jas...@py...>]

> Not having access to a development kit for the PS2, could someone please
> let me know how feasible it is to have a PS2 as a generic home MP3 player?
> 
> Maybe some software on a CD that loads up on the PS2 and plays all the MP3's
> on the disk, or a mini-player that sits on a memory card and loads up MP3's
> on CD as per normal music CD's?

Ok, so there's two parts to this.  Firstly, could you write/port an MP3
player on a PS2.  Yes.  The PS2 is more than capable of playing MP3, and
indeed I've seen it done.

The problem comes when you want a consumer machine to boot up a program
to do it, because of course without a naughty modchip (which invalidates
your warranty and will make us take you off our Christmas card list) then
a machine will simply not boot anything other than a legitimately duplicated
PS2 CD or DVD.  You can't get an ordinary CD writer to make CDs which boot.

If you're a developer then you can just get a TEST unit, which can boot
from gold CD's, but these are not available to the general public.

However, all is not lost.  The PS2 linux kit will enable people to write
their own software.  While only available in Japan right now, if enough
interest is shown in it, it will no doubt be released in the other territories.

Using this (complete with it's own HD and network interface) It would probably
be feasible to compile up an MP3 player (complete with funky user interface)
and have it play a selection of tracks stored on the internal hard drive.

For information, and to register interest in the linux kit, pop along
to the Sony technology site:-

http://www.technology.scee.net/cgi-bin/scee/scee.pl?ps2linux

That's the european one, I don't have the US one to hand.

> How hard is it to format to the PS2's format disks from a generic CD writer?
> (eg: like windows, is there an autorun?) Could a person just setup a directory
> on a CD with an included executable that auto loads?

Well I've sort of answered this above. However, I'd just like to make a
friendly suggestion that this list doesn't launch into a discussion of
bypassing the PS2's copy protection methods :)

Cheers,

Jase.

-- 
Jason G. Doig
Senior Engineer, Sony Computer Entertainment Europe.
Opinions expressed are mine, not necessarily anyone else's, yadda yadda...

[GD-Consoles] Generic MP3 Player for Playstation 2

[Leath M. <Lea...@en...>]

Not game related, but it's a quiet list so far... :)

Not having access to a development kit for the PS2, could someone please
let me know how feasible it is to have a PS2 as a generic home MP3 player?

Maybe some software on a CD that loads up on the PS2 and plays all the MP3's
on the disk, or a mini-player that sits on a memory card and loads up MP3's
on CD as per normal music CD's?

How hard is it to format to the PS2's format disks from a generic CD writer?
(eg: like windows, is there an autorun?) Could a person just setup a directory
on a CD with an included executable that auto loads?

I'm happy to talk about this offline if anybody is interested... and I don't
suspect a (yes/no/hard/easy sorta answer would really go against any NDA's :)

Leathal.

[GD-Consoles] List Reply Issues

[Tom H. <to...@3d...>]

OK, I've gotten some information back from SourceForge. The change was part 
of a recent global policy change. We were not consulted before it happened, 
it was just made for us because they feel this is the way lists should be 
run. Needless to say I don't agree with them.

I've gotten the email address of the person we'll need to talk to in order 
to get this changed (all I want it the ability to specify it on a per-list 
basis .. which is what we used to have) but he is on vacation for the rest 
of the week. Unfortunately, I'll be gone on my honeymoon next week so I 
won't be able to talk to him until around the 16th. I'm gonna drop the guy 
an email now and leave him contact information for Brian. We'll take this 
one step at a time, but hopefully we'll get things changed back to normal soon.

Tom

RE: [GD-Consoles] new to console programming...

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

A large amount of technical info has been released by Sony about the PS2 to
the public, including fairly detailed discussion of its rendering
capabilities, so the feeling is that most PS2 discussion is fine. There has
been at least one article in Develop magazine about an extremely technical
aspect of the console. And the "PS2 linux" setup that they're selling in
Japan will come with what is essentially all the current hardware manuals.
So I think it's unlikely Sony will object to fairly detailed discussions on
lists like this.

Xbox - for rendering capabilities, it's basically a GF3 with some tweaked
drivers that are a bit closer to the metal than a normal DX driver. So
there's no reason people can't discuss techniques on that - it's a GF3, but
you know exactly what it's doing. And the rest of the machine is just a
well-integrated PC with some well-known differences (not much memory, no
Windows GUI, unified memory, etc)

I know nothing about GameCube, and Nintendo will probably send squads of
ninja with tac-nukes to kill anyone talking about it.

And general algos and so on are applicable on any console of course.

It'll probably still be quite quiet though :-)

Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke.

What's he up to now (and can I have a go)?
http://www.eidosinteractive.com/downloads/search.html?gmid=86

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alistair Milne [mailto:kr...@kr...]
> Sent: 03 October 2001 00:13
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] new to console programming...
> 
> 
> Hi Marcin.
> 
> Like the other poster said, most of the interesting stuff is 
> under NDA so we
> can't talk about it unless you are too.  Once you do get 
> access to the 'good
> stuff', the samples you get with the toolchain 
> (/usr/local/sce/sample) are a
> good launch-pad to give you a general idea how the various 
> subsystems work,
> and once you are up and running they are good reference 
> material when you're
> tackling a specific problem.  Going further, the SCEA support 
> website is a
> good place to go for more advanced examples, and for other 
> useful snippets
> of code and documentation.  Browsing the conference papers on 
> the website is
> a useful way to get into it quickly.  There are also 
> newsgroups for NDA
> signees where tons of problem solving goes on.
> 
> Basically, we can't say much about it in detail unless you've 
> signed the
> NDA, sorry.
> 
> Incidentally, what is this group supposed to be for, 
> considering we can't
> discuss any technical details without breaking contracts?  
> Console game
> design paradigms versus other platforms?  Optimum controller 
> layouts?  I can
> see it getting stale pretty quickly...
> 
> Alistair
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gam...@li...
> > 
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Marcin Wieczorek
> Sent: 02 October 2001 19:03
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Consoles] new to console programming...
>
>
> Hi,
>
> 	I'm new to console programming, namely PS2, and I was
> wondering if anyone
> could point me to some resources on the net where I can read up on maybe
> general programming techniques and such.
>
> 	We recently had the Gamasutras PS2 article float around the office
> (http://www.gamasutra.com/gdce/green/green_01.htm )and I was wondering if
> maybe there are some other articles like this one that will give
> me a better
> understanding of the console before I actually sit down and start typing.
>
> Does anyone have any opinions about the above mentioned article?  Is it a
> good thing for a beginner to engrave in his head?  Pitfalls that
> I should be
> aware?
>
> I don't want this to turn into a why xbox programming is easier
> and I should
> do that' topic.  My company is looking into making a title for PS2 and I
> need as much basic knowledge of the machine as possible.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Marcin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
>


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RE: [GD-Consoles] new to console programming...

[Marcin W. <Ma...@zo...>]

well, just thought that someone might have good pointers on how to start..
but I guess I'll have to wait until suits are done with the paper work..

Thanks anyway,
Marcin

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Alistair Milne
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 4:13 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] new to console programming...


Hi Marcin.

Like the other poster said, most of the interesting stuff is under NDA so we
can't talk about it unless you are too.  Once you do get access to the 'good
stuff', the samples you get with the toolchain (/usr/local/sce/sample) are a
good launch-pad to give you a general idea how the various subsystems work,
and once you are up and running they are good reference material when you're
tackling a specific problem.  Going further, the SCEA support website is a
good place to go for more advanced examples, and for other useful snippets
of code and documentation.  Browsing the conference papers on the website is
a useful way to get into it quickly.  There are also newsgroups for NDA
signees where tons of problem solving goes on.

Basically, we can't say much about it in detail unless you've signed the
NDA, sorry.

Incidentally, what is this group supposed to be for, considering we can't
discuss any technical details without breaking contracts?  Console game
design paradigms versus other platforms?  Optimum controller layouts?  I can
see it getting stale pretty quickly...

Alistair



> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Marcin Wieczorek
> Sent: 02 October 2001 19:03
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Consoles] new to console programming...
>
>
> Hi,
>
> 	I'm new to console programming, namely PS2, and I was
> wondering if anyone
> could point me to some resources on the net where I can read up on maybe
> general programming techniques and such.
>
> 	We recently had the Gamasutras PS2 article float around the office
> (http://www.gamasutra.com/gdce/green/green_01.htm )and I was wondering if
> maybe there are some other articles like this one that will give
> me a better
> understanding of the console before I actually sit down and start typing.
>
> Does anyone have any opinions about the above mentioned article?  Is it a
> good thing for a beginner to engrave in his head?  Pitfalls that
> I should be
> aware?
>
> I don't want this to turn into a why xbox programming is easier
> and I should
> do that' topic.  My company is looking into making a title for PS2 and I
> need as much basic knowledge of the machine as possible.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Marcin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
>


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RE: [GD-Consoles] new to console programming...

[Alistair M. <kr...@kr...>]

Hi Marcin.

Like the other poster said, most of the interesting stuff is under NDA so we
can't talk about it unless you are too.  Once you do get access to the 'good
stuff', the samples you get with the toolchain (/usr/local/sce/sample) are a
good launch-pad to give you a general idea how the various subsystems work,
and once you are up and running they are good reference material when you're
tackling a specific problem.  Going further, the SCEA support website is a
good place to go for more advanced examples, and for other useful snippets
of code and documentation.  Browsing the conference papers on the website is
a useful way to get into it quickly.  There are also newsgroups for NDA
signees where tons of problem solving goes on.

Basically, we can't say much about it in detail unless you've signed the
NDA, sorry.

Incidentally, what is this group supposed to be for, considering we can't
discuss any technical details without breaking contracts?  Console game
design paradigms versus other platforms?  Optimum controller layouts?  I can
see it getting stale pretty quickly...

Alistair



> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Marcin Wieczorek
> Sent: 02 October 2001 19:03
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Consoles] new to console programming...
>
>
> Hi,
>
> 	I'm new to console programming, namely PS2, and I was
> wondering if anyone
> could point me to some resources on the net where I can read up on maybe
> general programming techniques and such.
>
> 	We recently had the Gamasutras PS2 article float around the office
> (http://www.gamasutra.com/gdce/green/green_01.htm )and I was wondering if
> maybe there are some other articles like this one that will give
> me a better
> understanding of the console before I actually sit down and start typing.
>
> Does anyone have any opinions about the above mentioned article?  Is it a
> good thing for a beginner to engrave in his head?  Pitfalls that
> I should be
> aware?
>
> I don't want this to turn into a why xbox programming is easier
> and I should
> do that' topic.  My company is looking into making a title for PS2 and I
> need as much basic knowledge of the machine as possible.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Marcin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
>

Re: [GD-Consoles] new to console programming...

[Jeff L. <je...@da...>]

If your company is NDA'd with Sony already, you should have access to the developer's website and newsgroups.  There is quite a bit of material there covering all aspects of PS2 development.  The newsgroups are pretty active and the website has a lot of sample code and docs.  Definitely get the code off the developer website.  The demo code that comes with the system is horrible but I wouldn't let that discourage you too much.  

I doubt you will find too much on any public forums or websites.  All the material is under NDA.

-Jeff

At 11:02 AM 10/2/2001 -0700, Marcin Wieczorek wrote:
>Hi,
>
>         I'm new to console programming, namely PS2, and I was wondering if anyone
>could point me to some resources on the net where I can read up on maybe
>general programming techniques and such.
>
>         We recently had the Gamasutras PS2 article float around the office
>(http://www.gamasutra.com/gdce/green/green_01.htm )and I was wondering if
>maybe there are some other articles like this one that will give me a better
>understanding of the console before I actually sit down and start typing.
>
>Does anyone have any opinions about the above mentioned article?  Is it a
>good thing for a beginner to engrave in his head?  Pitfalls that I should be
>aware?
>
>I don't want this to turn into a why xbox programming is easier and I should
>do that' topic.  My company is looking into making a title for PS2 and I
>need as much basic knowledge of the machine as possible.
>
>Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>Marcin
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
>Gam...@li...
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles

[GD-Consoles] new to console programming...

[Marcin W. <Ma...@zo...>]

Hi,

	I'm new to console programming, namely PS2, and I was wondering if anyone
could point me to some resources on the net where I can read up on maybe
general programming techniques and such.

	We recently had the Gamasutras PS2 article float around the office
(http://www.gamasutra.com/gdce/green/green_01.htm )and I was wondering if
maybe there are some other articles like this one that will give me a better
understanding of the console before I actually sit down and start typing.

Does anyone have any opinions about the above mentioned article?  Is it a
good thing for a beginner to engrave in his head?  Pitfalls that I should be
aware?

I don't want this to turn into a why xbox programming is easier and I should
do that' topic.  My company is looking into making a title for PS2 and I
need as much basic knowledge of the machine as possible.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Marcin