gamedevlists-consoles — List for discussing game development on consoles like the PS2 and XBox

[GD-Consoles] what to do with little cash

[Raymond L. M. <ra...@wa...>]

Hello!  I have a question about programming a console that has a small =
cache.  Now I'm new to this console so I don't know all the details =
about it except I've read from other people on this group about how the =
cache is very small and that you can stall the the system if you don't =
watch out.  I was wondering if you could give me any tips and pointers =
about what to watch out for in a engine framework or composition.  For =
example, I heard you want to avoid virtual functions because the vtable =
can cause a cache miss.  The problem is I do mostly c++ with a good deal =
of virtual functions.  Does this mean I can't use an object heirarcy =
with virtual or pure virtual functions?  My main concern is that my =
engine layout is a pretty strict c++ implementation and I'm worried the =
performance will suffer.  I've looked through the documention on the =
website provided for the console and I didn't see anything specific to =
my question but if you know of anything let me know.  I appreciate your =
time and knowledge.

    Thanks,
    Raymond L. Maple
    WayForward Technologies

RE: [GD-Consoles] Compiling MS-Windows Builds Under Wine

[Troy G. <Tr...@cs...>]

As was mentioned at the top of post, the document was written in furtherance
of a PS2Linux project. Perhaps a second-degree relation to a console (or
third-degree...).


> From: chr...@pl...
> J GHrant wrote:
> > [...] The results are very positive: with
> > some configuration the same source code can be compiled and the
> > resulting binary can run on any MS-Windows computer.
> 
> Umm, eh, hmm.. how exactly does this relate to _consoles_?
> 
> Christer Ericson
> Sony Computer Entertainment, Santa Monica

Re: [GD-Consoles] Compiling MS-Windows Builds Under Wine

[<chr...@pl...>]

J GHrant wrote:
> [...] The results are very positive: with
> some configuration the same source code can be compiled and the
> resulting binary can run on any MS-Windows computer.

Umm, eh, hmm.. how exactly does this relate to _consoles_?

Christer Ericson
Sony Computer Entertainment, Santa Monica

Re: [GD-Consoles] Game programming for playstation One?

[Research \(GameBrains\) <res...@ga...>]

PS1 <shudder> ....  Not an answer to your question, but why not PS2 =
using PS2 linux kit?  Sony gives you enough stuff in the kit to do some =
nice game stuff.   People on this list also deal with the PS2 daily and =
you'll likely get better help especially with PS1 knowledge getting =
rusty...=20

BTW, I'll save someone else pointing this out, but you'll get better =
answers on this list if you at least _try_ to appear that you did a =
thorough search yourself.  A google search on what you want easily gives =
you what you're looking for on PS1.

Brett

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Henrik Andersen" <pet...@ho...>
To: <Gam...@li...>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 7:40 PM
Subject: [GD-Consoles] Game programming for playstation One?


> Hi!
> I am a newbie in game programming for Sony Playstation PSOne. I am =
familiar
> with game programming in c++ for windows. Which tools are used for the
> playstation? Are there any open source programming tools to ease the =
porting
> from windows to playstation?
>=20
> Thanks in advance!
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> Welcome to geek heaven.
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> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D553

[GD-Consoles] Compiling MS-Windows Builds Under Wine

[J. G. <jg-...@jg...>]

Hi,

I wrote an article for http://codingstyle.com/ about how I saved time on 
a multi-platform project I was working on
(http://www.chaotica.u-net.com/page/dnld_ps2.htm) for the PS2Linux Kit.


http://codingstyle.com/articles/using-ms-vcpp-with-gnu-wine.html

Abstract

This article documents my investigation into how to use the MS Visual 
C++ compiler with Wine (Free Software MS-Windows compatible API 
implementation) on the GNU System.  The results are very positive: with 
some configuration the same source code can be compiled and the 
resulting binary can run on any MS-Windows computer.  Reducing the 
development time wasted was the main goal of this investigation.  In a 
consolidated game development environment, where one computer can 
compile everything this provides flexibility and lets the programmers 
get back to programming.  However, nothing is perfect and, in this case, 
there was a slowdown of between 40-57% when compiling under GNU/Wine. 
This is not a major problem because MS-Windows specific builds are not 
as frequent as GCC builds in my specific case.  Development time and 
effort was saved because of no necessity to move source code to 
MS-Windows to compile.  The time previously used maintaining other 
computers and builds can now be put to better use in the development 
process.



Hopefully this URL will still work (it has just been slashdotted).

I would be interested to know if it is useful to others, as 
multi-platform game projects are reasonably common now.

Cheers

JG

[GD-Consoles] Game programming for playstation One?

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

Back when I used to work on PSOne, it was the SN tools (compiler, linker),
and the DOS debugger (as the Windows debugger was busted). The debugger may
work these days :)

Open source programming tools? Porting from Windows to PlayStation? I think
you're in for a bit of a shock, unless things have moved on a lot. There
were no open source tools. And expect to rewrite almost all your code
(unless you usually do your arithmetic in fixed point on a PC :)

Jamie


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[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
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Sent: 24 February 2003 11:41
To: Gam...@li...
Subject: *****SPAM***** [GD-Consoles] Game programming for playstation
One?


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Hi!
I am a newbie in game programming for Sony Playstation PSOne. I am familiar
with game programming in c++ for windows. Which tools are used for the
playstation? Are there any open source programming tools to ease the porting
from windows to playstation?

Thanks in advance!





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Welcome to geek heaven.
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[GD-Consoles] Game programming for playstation One?

[Henrik A. <pet...@ho...>]

Hi!
I am a newbie in game programming for Sony Playstation PSOne. I am familiar
with game programming in c++ for windows. Which tools are used for the
playstation? Are there any open source programming tools to ease the porting
from windows to playstation?

Thanks in advance!

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on consol e

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

Python is a strange case, because everything is incredibly introspective -
every Python class knows what its members are, and you can simply ask it. In
fact, that's what a lot of Python programs use as a core feature - you don't
check what class things are, you just ask them if they have a certain member
function/variable - because you can construct classes at runtime (i.e. add
and remove members dynamically). Coming from an assembly/C background, this
messed with my head a bit before I learned to stop worrying and love the
snake :-)

So the Python debugger is written in Python, and it's not a normal "take
over the machine" debugger - it doesn't "run" the code under scrutiny, it
just runs "beside" it - they're both just different programs both running
under the same bytecode interpreter, and one happens to know about the
other. It's a fairly crazy concept, but it works wonderfully.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ivan-Assen Ivanov [mailto:as...@ha...]
> Sent: 21 February 2003 11:52
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
> console
> 
> 
> Something that I've found no good explanation of, or even 
> a bad explanation for that matter: a good debugger is touted as
> one of the pros of integrating an external language for scripting.
> But how do you integrate a debugger into the typical
> massively multithreaded, realtime environment of a game?
> 
> How would a standard Python debugger like your heavily customized
> interpreter?
> 
> We're using a custom scripting language, and we basically resort
> to printf-style debugging, along with a few tricks like "last 100
> script lines executed", displaying AI info where the unit's health
> is supposed to be shown, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SlickEdit Inc. Develop an edge.
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> 

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on consol e

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

The actual memory size is pretty tiny - it's "compiled" to bytecode, and all
the symbol names are referenced, not passed around, so it's fine on that
respects. It was the fragmentation and new/delete performance that was
killing us, but that's all solved with a stack-based allocator.

Speed is the major concern - we'll have to see how we get on with that, and
just how much stuff we'll have to throw over the wall to C. The PS2 is
definately the worst case - the other platforms have bigger caches and
faster CPUs and don't have much of a problem with it.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Perella [mailto:aj...@eu...]
> Sent: 21 February 2003 11:31
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
> console
> 
> 
> Thanks Tom.
> Its good of you to spend the time giving such a detailed reply.
> Given your experience, it is certainly something I will look 
> into here.
> Have you know what sort of memory footprint this takes up?
> Cheers,
> Andrew
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Tom Forsyth
> Sent: 20 February 2003 11:23
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
> console
> 
> 
> Bear in mind that the project is only about a third of the 
> way through, so
> we haven't hit any evil crunch times yet.
> 
> Porting was pretty simple. You need to override the memory 
> handling stuff to
> use your own heaps of course, but that was pretty simple.
> 
> You also probably want to give Python its own heap because it 
> does a lot of
> 12-byte allocations, and if you throw that in the general 
> heap you'll get
> horrible fragmentation. We used a stack-based allocator hard-coded to
> deliver 12-byte entries - nice and fast, no fragmentation.
> 
> Biggest worry is speed on the PS2, because its cache is sooo tiny. But
> Python is hardly a speed demon in the best of times, so you 
> need to make
> sure you're not using a "heartbeat" system (i.e. calling each 
> object each
> frame) - you need a queue-based event system and a C 
> "autonomic" system to
> do the mundane work. This is just good programming practice, whatever
> language you use, but it's especially important when using a 
> slow scripting
> language for your high-level stuff.
> 
> SWIG takes a bit of work to integrate into the toolchain, and 
> it's still not
> great - it doesn't auto-SWIG headers very well, and we do 
> tend to have to
> manually do a "SWIG rebuild" quite often. However, it is 
> pretty fast, so
> that's not a big problem, it's just a bit annoying. I suspect 
> we could fix
> it easily if we just wrote a makefile (rather than trying to 
> use VC.net's
> stuff, which isn't very suited to this sort of stuff).
> 
> Benefits are that Python is incredibly easy to code, and 
> we've got some good
> stuff up and working very quickly. And of course you get a scripting
> language that the designers can use "for free".
> 
> Yes, it's a brave step. But we know that if it does all fall 
> down around our
> ears and speed is a big problem, we can just port the code 
> back to C, and
> only use Python for actual "level scripts" (this switch opens 
> this door,
> stuff like that). SWIG is probably the most important bit of 
> the puzzle,
> because it means that you can freely mix and match Python and 
> C - they can
> access each others members and fucntions quite happily, which 
> means you can
> throw code from one to the other in case of speed 
> emergencies. But we've not
> had to so far.
> 
> Even if the worst happens and no trace of Python survives to 
> the shipped
> game (which I very very much doubt), Python is a great 
> prototyping tool.
> 
> We were inspired by Humungous's work with Python and SWIG - they've
> definately had more experience with this sort of stuff. IIRC, 
> there's a GDC
> talk they did on the pros and cons and gotchas. Definately 
> worth checking
> out.
> 
> 
> Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.
> 
> This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> and does not in any way imply existence of the author.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andrew Perella [mailto:aj...@eu...]
> > Sent: 20 February 2003 10:54
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
> > console
> >
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> > 	Can you tell us more of your experiences with using
> > python on ps2/xbox/gc?
> > What problems have you had? What unexpected benefits did 
> you get? What
> > worries do you have at the back of your mind? My feeling is
> > that this was a
> > brave step to make at this time.
> > Regards,
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> > Dr Andrew Perella
> > Programming Manager
> > aj...@eu...
> >
> > Eutechnyx Limited is a Deloitte & Touche Fast 50 and a Sunday
> > Times Tech
> > Track 100 company.
> >
> > Eutechnyx Limited
> > Metro Centre East Business Park
> > Gateshead
> > Tyne & Wear
> > NE11 9HU
> > UK
> > Phone: +44 (0) 191 460 60 60
> > Fax: +44 (0) 191 460 22 66
> > www.eutechnyx.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________
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> read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. No 
> communication sent by e-mail to or from Eutechnyx is intended 
> to give rise to contractual or other legal liability, apart 
> from liability which cannot be excluded under English law. 
> 
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> Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. 
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Re: [mlist] RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Ivan-Assen I. <as...@ha...>]

> Ivan-Assen Ivanov wrote:
> >But how do you integrate a debugger into the typical
> >massively multithreaded, realtime environment of a game?
> 
> Massively multithreaded? On a console? On the next generation
> of consoles, yes probably, but using threading on e.g. the PS2
> is IMO not a smart call.

I didn't mean multithreading in the classical OS/CPU context switch sense,
but rather logically multithreaded, as in many simultaneously
executing scripts for all the "agents" in the game world.

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[<phi...@pl...>]

Christer Ericson:
> Massively multithreaded? On a console? On the next generation of
consoles, yes probably, but using threading on e.g. the PS2 is IMO not a
smart call.



Even on the next generation of consoles, you're still unlikely to need more
than one thread per processor. Maybe another to service inter-processor
comms, but I don't see the benefit of a full-blown pre-emptive
multi-threaded game engine. The cost of task switching is one of those
things that goes down and up, since although the processor and memory gets
faster, the register file, and task state information gets larger.

Pre-emptive multi threading is great for applications that need to maintain
an interactive UI while doing some huge monolithic background tasks.

I suppose maybe if your game is also acting as the server for multiplayer.

Cheers,
Phil

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[<chr...@pl...>]

Ivan-Assen Ivanov wrote:
>But how do you integrate a debugger into the typical
>massively multithreaded, realtime environment of a game?

Massively multithreaded? On a console? On the next generation
of consoles, yes probably, but using threading on e.g. the PS2
is IMO not a smart call.

Christer Ericson
Sony Computer Entertainment, Santa Monica

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Ivan-Assen I. <as...@ha...>]

Something that I've found no good explanation of, or even 
a bad explanation for that matter: a good debugger is touted as
one of the pros of integrating an external language for scripting.
But how do you integrate a debugger into the typical
massively multithreaded, realtime environment of a game?

How would a standard Python debugger like your heavily customized
interpreter?

We're using a custom scripting language, and we basically resort
to printf-style debugging, along with a few tricks like "last 100
script lines executed", displaying AI info where the unit's health
is supposed to be shown, etc.

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Andrew P. <aj...@eu...>]

Thanks Tom.
Its good of you to spend the time giving such a detailed reply.
Given your experience, it is certainly something I will look into here.
Have you know what sort of memory footprint this takes up?
Cheers,
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Tom Forsyth
Sent: 20 February 2003 11:23
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
console


Bear in mind that the project is only about a third of the way through, so
we haven't hit any evil crunch times yet.

Porting was pretty simple. You need to override the memory handling stuff to
use your own heaps of course, but that was pretty simple.

You also probably want to give Python its own heap because it does a lot of
12-byte allocations, and if you throw that in the general heap you'll get
horrible fragmentation. We used a stack-based allocator hard-coded to
deliver 12-byte entries - nice and fast, no fragmentation.

Biggest worry is speed on the PS2, because its cache is sooo tiny. But
Python is hardly a speed demon in the best of times, so you need to make
sure you're not using a "heartbeat" system (i.e. calling each object each
frame) - you need a queue-based event system and a C "autonomic" system to
do the mundane work. This is just good programming practice, whatever
language you use, but it's especially important when using a slow scripting
language for your high-level stuff.

SWIG takes a bit of work to integrate into the toolchain, and it's still not
great - it doesn't auto-SWIG headers very well, and we do tend to have to
manually do a "SWIG rebuild" quite often. However, it is pretty fast, so
that's not a big problem, it's just a bit annoying. I suspect we could fix
it easily if we just wrote a makefile (rather than trying to use VC.net's
stuff, which isn't very suited to this sort of stuff).

Benefits are that Python is incredibly easy to code, and we've got some good
stuff up and working very quickly. And of course you get a scripting
language that the designers can use "for free".

Yes, it's a brave step. But we know that if it does all fall down around our
ears and speed is a big problem, we can just port the code back to C, and
only use Python for actual "level scripts" (this switch opens this door,
stuff like that). SWIG is probably the most important bit of the puzzle,
because it means that you can freely mix and match Python and C - they can
access each others members and fucntions quite happily, which means you can
throw code from one to the other in case of speed emergencies. But we've not
had to so far.

Even if the worst happens and no trace of Python survives to the shipped
game (which I very very much doubt), Python is a great prototyping tool.

We were inspired by Humungous's work with Python and SWIG - they've
definately had more experience with this sort of stuff. IIRC, there's a GDC
talk they did on the pros and cons and gotchas. Definately worth checking
out.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Perella [mailto:aj...@eu...]
> Sent: 20 February 2003 10:54
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
> console
>
>
> Hi Tom,
> 	Can you tell us more of your experiences with using
> python on ps2/xbox/gc?
> What problems have you had? What unexpected benefits did you get? What
> worries do you have at the back of your mind? My feeling is
> that this was a
> brave step to make at this time.
> Regards,
> Andrew
>
>
> Dr Andrew Perella
> Programming Manager
> aj...@eu...
>
> Eutechnyx Limited is a Deloitte & Touche Fast 50 and a Sunday
> Times Tech
> Track 100 company.
>
> Eutechnyx Limited
> Metro Centre East Business Park
> Gateshead
> Tyne & Wear
> NE11 9HU
> UK
> Phone: +44 (0) 191 460 60 60
> Fax: +44 (0) 191 460 22 66
> www.eutechnyx.com




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_______________________________________________
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Archives:
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_____________________________________________________________________
This e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It may be read, copied
and used only by the intended recipient. No communication sent by e-mail to
or from Eutechnyx is intended to give rise to contractual or other legal
liability, apart from liability which cannot be excluded under English law.

This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet
delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre.

www.eutechnyx.com Eutechnyx Limited. Registered in England No: 2172322


_____________________________________________________________________
This e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. No communication sent by e-mail to or from Eutechnyx is intended to give rise to contractual or other legal liability, apart from liability which cannot be excluded under English law. 

This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. 

www.eutechnyx.com Eutechnyx Limited. Registered in England No: 2172322

RE: [GD-Consoles] selector patent

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

personally, i found it very irritating :) options were pretty cryptic.

jamie

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Mickael Pointier
Sent: 20 February 2003 09:59
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] selector patent


Brett Bibby wrote:
> I would like to implement a "menu" selector on consoles in such a way
> that the choices appear in a circle so they can be directly selected
> with an analog controller or dpad without scrolling.
> [...]

Recently, the best implementation I saw was in NeverWinter Nights where you
can select all possibles actions on yourself or on some item by using this
kind of radial menu.
It even handles submenus. When an option will access a submenu you see the
new menu in small version, the main menu then fade out while the small one
replace it. You can get back to the previous level menu by simply clicking
without moving (select the center).

Works very well.

Funny the didn't use it for game parameters :)

    Mike




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RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on consol e

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

Bear in mind that the project is only about a third of the way through, so
we haven't hit any evil crunch times yet.

Porting was pretty simple. You need to override the memory handling stuff to
use your own heaps of course, but that was pretty simple.

You also probably want to give Python its own heap because it does a lot of
12-byte allocations, and if you throw that in the general heap you'll get
horrible fragmentation. We used a stack-based allocator hard-coded to
deliver 12-byte entries - nice and fast, no fragmentation.

Biggest worry is speed on the PS2, because its cache is sooo tiny. But
Python is hardly a speed demon in the best of times, so you need to make
sure you're not using a "heartbeat" system (i.e. calling each object each
frame) - you need a queue-based event system and a C "autonomic" system to
do the mundane work. This is just good programming practice, whatever
language you use, but it's especially important when using a slow scripting
language for your high-level stuff.

SWIG takes a bit of work to integrate into the toolchain, and it's still not
great - it doesn't auto-SWIG headers very well, and we do tend to have to
manually do a "SWIG rebuild" quite often. However, it is pretty fast, so
that's not a big problem, it's just a bit annoying. I suspect we could fix
it easily if we just wrote a makefile (rather than trying to use VC.net's
stuff, which isn't very suited to this sort of stuff).

Benefits are that Python is incredibly easy to code, and we've got some good
stuff up and working very quickly. And of course you get a scripting
language that the designers can use "for free".

Yes, it's a brave step. But we know that if it does all fall down around our
ears and speed is a big problem, we can just port the code back to C, and
only use Python for actual "level scripts" (this switch opens this door,
stuff like that). SWIG is probably the most important bit of the puzzle,
because it means that you can freely mix and match Python and C - they can
access each others members and fucntions quite happily, which means you can
throw code from one to the other in case of speed emergencies. But we've not
had to so far.

Even if the worst happens and no trace of Python survives to the shipped
game (which I very very much doubt), Python is a great prototyping tool.

We were inspired by Humungous's work with Python and SWIG - they've
definately had more experience with this sort of stuff. IIRC, there's a GDC
talk they did on the pros and cons and gotchas. Definately worth checking
out.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Perella [mailto:aj...@eu...]
> Sent: 20 February 2003 10:54
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
> console
> 
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 	Can you tell us more of your experiences with using 
> python on ps2/xbox/gc?
> What problems have you had? What unexpected benefits did you get? What
> worries do you have at the back of your mind? My feeling is 
> that this was a
> brave step to make at this time.
> Regards,
> Andrew
> 
> 
> Dr Andrew Perella
> Programming Manager
> aj...@eu...
> 
> Eutechnyx Limited is a Deloitte & Touche Fast 50 and a Sunday 
> Times Tech
> Track 100 company.
> 
> Eutechnyx Limited
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> Gateshead
> Tyne & Wear
> NE11 9HU
> UK
> Phone: +44 (0) 191 460 60 60
> Fax: +44 (0) 191 460 22 66
> www.eutechnyx.com

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on console

[Andrew P. <aj...@eu...>]

Hi Tom,
	Can you tell us more of your experiences with using python on ps2/xbox/gc?
What problems have you had? What unexpected benefits did you get? What
worries do you have at the back of your mind? My feeling is that this was a
brave step to make at this time.
Regards,
Andrew


Dr Andrew Perella
Programming Manager
aj...@eu...

Eutechnyx Limited is a Deloitte & Touche Fast 50 and a Sunday Times Tech
Track 100 company.

Eutechnyx Limited
Metro Centre East Business Park
Gateshead
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Fax: +44 (0) 191 460 22 66
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Re: [GD-Consoles] selector patent

[Mickael P. <mpo...@ed...>]

Brett Bibby wrote:
> I would like to implement a "menu" selector on consoles in such a way
> that the choices appear in a circle so they can be directly selected
> with an analog controller or dpad without scrolling.
> [...]

Recently, the best implementation I saw was in NeverWinter Nights where you
can select all possibles actions on yourself or on some item by using this
kind of radial menu.
It even handles submenus. When an option will access a submenu you see the
new menu in small version, the main menu then fade out while the small one
replace it. You can get back to the previous level menu by simply clicking
without moving (select the center).

Works very well.

Funny the didn't use it for game parameters :)

    Mike

Re: [GD-Consoles] selector patent

[<phi...@pl...>]

I reccomend you do a bit of research before assuming you need a license for
this sort of menu.

http://www.piemenus.com/DDJPieMenuArticle.html

(indeed, pretty much all of http://www.piemenus.com/)

http://www.sm.luth.se/~david/carl/www/piedscrp.html






                                                                                                                                          
                    "Christian Laforte"                                                                                                   
                    <cla...@aw...>                         To:     <gam...@li...>                   
                    Sent by:                                      cc:                                                                     
                    gam...@li...urc       Fax to:                                                                 
                    eforge.net                                    Subject:     Re: [GD-Consoles] selector patent                          
                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                          
                    02/19/2003 07:25 AM                                                                                                   
                    Please respond to gamedevlists-consoles                                                                               
                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                          




Yep, it's Alias|wavefront's Maya.

I won't comment on that kind of patent, since I work for that company...
but
if you're interested in licensing that kind of interface I can put you in
contact with our research team.

Christian Laforte
Rendering&Vis Team, Alias | wavefront

----- Original Message -----
From: "Troy Gilbert" <Tr...@cs...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 3:46 AM
Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] selector patent


> And to add to what my fine colleague (from France) had to say...
>
> The art package you're thinking of is Maya, and they were educated by
> Clanton on the subject. In fact, there was actually a recent article in
Game
> Developer on this very subject; I believe it was referring to the
interface
> in the Sims (an example of its use in a game).
>
> On a more general note, I would place a patent like this in the "evil
> patents" pile if it existed, and would happily fight/violate it to the
> death... (but I digress!)
>
> Troy
> Developer Relations
> Criterion Software
> www.csl.com
>
>
> > ----- [relevant parts from thread] -----
> > From: Alistair Milne [mailto:kru...@ya...]
>
> > We were doing a similar thing at Dogfish before we went
> > under, which was
> > inspired by hearing a guy called Chuck Clanton speaking to us
> > all at Bullfrog
> > about pie menus.  Chuck (who hails from Stanford Uni and
> > specialised in GUI
> > design for part of his career) gave us the impression that
> > this idea had been
> > around for decades, and that it was therefore completely
> > unpatentable.
>
> > --- Brett Bibby <res...@ga...> wrote:
>
> > > analog controller or dpad without scrolling.  I thought I
> > remember one of
> > > the 3D art packages doing this years ago and that they were
> > going to seek a
> > > patent, but I have no idea how to search if it is patented
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [GD-Consoles] selector patent

[Ruslan S. <si...@gs...>]

TF> 8-way options interfaces are as old as the hills.

It will be of no surprise if hills are already patented too :)

Ruslan Shestopalyuk, GSC Game World

RE: [GD-Consoles] selector patent

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

8-way options interfaces are as old as the hills.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Laforte [mailto:cla...@aw...]
> Sent: 19 February 2003 15:25
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] selector patent
> 
> 
> Yep, it's Alias|wavefront's Maya.
> 
> I won't comment on that kind of patent, since I work for that 
> company... but
> if you're interested in licensing that kind of interface I 
> can put you in
> contact with our research team.
> 
> Christian Laforte
> Rendering&Vis Team, Alias | wavefront
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Troy Gilbert" <Tr...@cs...>
> To: <gam...@li...>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 3:46 AM
> Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] selector patent
> 
> 
> > And to add to what my fine colleague (from France) had to say...
> >
> > The art package you're thinking of is Maya, and they were 
> educated by
> > Clanton on the subject. In fact, there was actually a 
> recent article in
> Game
> > Developer on this very subject; I believe it was referring to the
> interface
> > in the Sims (an example of its use in a game).
> >
> > On a more general note, I would place a patent like this in 
> the "evil
> > patents" pile if it existed, and would happily 
> fight/violate it to the
> > death... (but I digress!)
> >
> > Troy
> > Developer Relations
> > Criterion Software
> > www.csl.com
> >
> >
> > > ----- [relevant parts from thread] -----
> > > From: Alistair Milne [mailto:kru...@ya...]
> >
> > > We were doing a similar thing at Dogfish before we went
> > > under, which was
> > > inspired by hearing a guy called Chuck Clanton speaking to us
> > > all at Bullfrog
> > > about pie menus.  Chuck (who hails from Stanford Uni and
> > > specialised in GUI
> > > design for part of his career) gave us the impression that
> > > this idea had been
> > > around for decades, and that it was therefore completely
> > > unpatentable.
> >
> > > --- Brett Bibby <res...@ga...> wrote:
> >
> > > > analog controller or dpad without scrolling.  I thought I
> > > remember one of
> > > > the 3D art packages doing this years ago and that they were
> > > going to seek a
> > > > patent, but I have no idea how to search if it is patented
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: SlickEdit Inc. Develop an edge.
> > The most comprehensive and flexible code editor you can use.
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> 30-Day Trial.
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> > Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> > Gam...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> > Archives:
> > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> The most comprehensive and flexible code editor you can use.
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Re: [GD-Consoles] selector patent

[Christian L. <cla...@aw...>]

Yep, it's Alias|wavefront's Maya.

I won't comment on that kind of patent, since I work for that company... but
if you're interested in licensing that kind of interface I can put you in
contact with our research team.

Christian Laforte
Rendering&Vis Team, Alias | wavefront

----- Original Message -----
From: "Troy Gilbert" <Tr...@cs...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 3:46 AM
Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] selector patent


> And to add to what my fine colleague (from France) had to say...
>
> The art package you're thinking of is Maya, and they were educated by
> Clanton on the subject. In fact, there was actually a recent article in
Game
> Developer on this very subject; I believe it was referring to the
interface
> in the Sims (an example of its use in a game).
>
> On a more general note, I would place a patent like this in the "evil
> patents" pile if it existed, and would happily fight/violate it to the
> death... (but I digress!)
>
> Troy
> Developer Relations
> Criterion Software
> www.csl.com
>
>
> > ----- [relevant parts from thread] -----
> > From: Alistair Milne [mailto:kru...@ya...]
>
> > We were doing a similar thing at Dogfish before we went
> > under, which was
> > inspired by hearing a guy called Chuck Clanton speaking to us
> > all at Bullfrog
> > about pie menus.  Chuck (who hails from Stanford Uni and
> > specialised in GUI
> > design for part of his career) gave us the impression that
> > this idea had been
> > around for decades, and that it was therefore completely
> > unpatentable.
>
> > --- Brett Bibby <res...@ga...> wrote:
>
> > > analog controller or dpad without scrolling.  I thought I
> > remember one of
> > > the 3D art packages doing this years ago and that they were
> > going to seek a
> > > patent, but I have no idea how to search if it is patented
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: SlickEdit Inc. Develop an edge.
> The most comprehensive and flexible code editor you can use.
> Code faster. C/C++, C#, Java, HTML, XML, many more. FREE 30-Day Trial.
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>

RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on consol e

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

Normally our game objects just have the "brains" done in Python. Most of
them have low-level autonomic systems written in C ("keep walking toards
this point", "be bouncy and physics-y", "go to sleep", etc), and then the
script does the higher-level thinking - this is usually not done every
frame, it's done in an event queue style. So people walking around plot a
route of waypoints in Python (with raycast & A* assistance from C
libraries), and then feed the waypoint list to the autonomic
waypoint-follower. Then the script goes to sleep until it reaches a
waypoint, or there's something in the way (the autonomic system prods it
awake) or they get shot at or whatever.

But the script can render stuff - the whole frontend menu system and HUD
(with little 3D world map) is done that way.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Wayland [mailto:Mwa...@to...]
> Sent: 19 February 2003 03:52
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
> console
> 
> 
> You pretty much answered it with "create a game object" rather
> than exposing some of your lower level systems. Pretty obvious
> stuff, but some scripters want more and more power - I was just
> wondering at what level you restricted this.
> 
> Mark.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mick West [mailto:mi...@ne...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2003 2:05 PM
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting language on
> > console
> > 
> > 
> > Well now, that depends on how you look at it.
> > 
> > The meshes are rendered by the rendering engine, but the 
> > object that is
> > comprised of meshes is created and modified by script.  For 
> > example, the
> > skater is comprised of several meshes with various scales, 
> > materials and
> > colors, all of which is controlled by script.
> > 
> > The scripts could not render a mesh in isolation, and I 
> can't see why
> > you would want to.  But they could create a game object that just
> > comprised of a mesh component, which is essentially the same 
> > thing, just
> > with some useful framework. 
> > 
> > Maybe I'm not understanding your question?  
> > 
> > Mick
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: gam...@li... 
> > > [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> > > Behalf Of Mark Wayland
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 6:35 PM
> > > To: gam...@li...
> > > Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting 
> > > language on console
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Mick,
> > > 
> > > At what level do access your game objects/classes? Can a 
> > > script perform something like rendering a mesh or is it 
> > > completely game object centric?
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > Mark
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Mick West [mailto:mi...@ne...]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2003 5:15 AM
> > > > To: gam...@li...
> > > > Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting 
> > language on 
> > > > console
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > We (Neversoft) discussed this at some length when starting 
> > > our first 
> > > > game for the PS2.  There was some movement towards using a 
> > > > pre-existing script language (Java was mentioned).  However 
> > > I decided 
> > > > we should roll
> > > > our own, as we'd need control over what it was doing.
> > > > 
> > > > I'm now insanely glad we did this.  The fine control we 
> get over 
> > > > debugging, memory usage and  performance is invaluable.  
> > > Those kind of 
> > > > things may be less of a consideration on the PC, where you 
> > > have memory 
> > > > and CPU cycles to spare.  But on the PS2, I feel that if 
> > > we'd used a 
> > > > pre-existing language, then we would have had a lot more 
> > > trouble than 
> > > > we did.
> > > > 
> > > > It does not take that long either.  We shipped THPS3 less 
> > > than a year 
> > > > after we started programming our scripting language.
> > > > 
> > > > Of course, YMMV, it depends on what you use the script
> > > > language for.  We
> > > > have over 4MB of script, and a lot of the game's high 
> > level logic is
> > > > running in script, and a lot of the high level data is held 
> > > in script
> > > > data structures.
> > > > 
> > > > Anyway, the original questioner intends to generate their 
> > > scripts from 
> > > > UML diagrams.  This approach is inherently doomed, so 
> the actual 
> > > > choice of script language is irrelevant.
> > > > 
> > > > Mick
> > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: gam...@li...
> > > > > [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> > > > > Behalf Of Ron Hay
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:04 AM
> > > > > To: gam...@li...
> > > > > Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] question: Embedded scripting 
> > > > > language on console
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Has anyone on the list actually thought deeply about which
> > > > scripting
> > > > > language they choose?  If
> > > > > so, care to share your thoughts?  We're in the middle of
> > > > choosing the
> > > > > language, and Lua seems
> > > > > to be our current top pick.  The team member that is in 
> > charge of
> > > > > scripting is the type of person
> > > > > that just likes to pick and go, so I'm worried that there 
> > > may be a 
> > > > > better alternative out there...
> > > > > 
> > > > >   Ron
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> > > > > Welcome to geek heaven.
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> > > > Archives: 
> > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?> forum_id=553
> > > > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > -------------------------------------------------------
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RE: [GD-Consoles] selector patent

[Troy G. <Tr...@cs...>]

And to add to what my fine colleague (from France) had to say...

The art package you're thinking of is Maya, and they were educated by
Clanton on the subject. In fact, there was actually a recent article in Game
Developer on this very subject; I believe it was referring to the interface
in the Sims (an example of its use in a game).

On a more general note, I would place a patent like this in the "evil
patents" pile if it existed, and would happily fight/violate it to the
death... (but I digress!)

Troy
Developer Relations
Criterion Software
www.csl.com


> ----- [relevant parts from thread] -----
> From: Alistair Milne [mailto:kru...@ya...]

> We were doing a similar thing at Dogfish before we went 
> under, which was
> inspired by hearing a guy called Chuck Clanton speaking to us 
> all at Bullfrog
> about pie menus.  Chuck (who hails from Stanford Uni and 
> specialised in GUI
> design for part of his career) gave us the impression that 
> this idea had been
> around for decades, and that it was therefore completely 
> unpatentable.  

> --- Brett Bibby <res...@ga...> wrote:

> > analog controller or dpad without scrolling.  I thought I 
> remember one of
> > the 3D art packages doing this years ago and that they were 
> going to seek a
> > patent, but I have no idea how to search if it is patented 

Re: [GD-Consoles] selector patent

[<kru...@ya...>]

Hi Brett

We were doing a similar thing at Dogfish before we went under, which was
inspired by hearing a guy called Chuck Clanton speaking to us all at Bullfrog
about pie menus.  Chuck (who hails from Stanford Uni and specialised in GUI
design for part of his career) gave us the impression that this idea had been
around for decades, and that it was therefore completely unpatentable.  

For us at Dogfish, menu options were grouped into rings of around eight to
twelve which could be pointed at with a highlight using the analogue
controller, and then selected with X (on PS2).  We tried using click-down
select on the analogue stick as well, but it was too awkward trying to click it
down when it was off at an angle, we would forever be moving the stick slightly
and selecting the wrong item.  To scroll through the different rings we'd use
shoulder buttons.

We were doing this for Sony, and had spent 18 months on it before we closed up
shop, and we never heard any word from them that this idea was going to cause a
legal problem with patents.

In the more general case, you could search at Delphion
http://www.delphion.com/simple but it's hard to directly search for your cool
idea X, unless you know exactly how other people would have worded it in their
own patent application.  This is why patent lawyers exist, to hire researchers
who do all that legwork for you.

Alistair Milne
Criterion Software Ltd


 --- Brett Bibby <res...@ga...> wrote: 
> I would like to implement a "menu" selector on consoles in such a way that
> the choices appear in a circle so they can be directly selected with an
> analog controller or dpad without scrolling.  I thought I remember one of
> the 3D art packages doing this years ago and that they were going to seek a
> patent, but I have no idea how to search if it is patented or not.  Also,
> for this type of thing, would the patent be on the algorithm to do it, the
> layout or ???  Finally, it got me to wondering if Sony, NOA or MS has
> licensed patents pertaining to these kinds of software patents or not.  If
> so, how does one find out what has been licensed?  I have never seen
> anything other than Dolby or image licenses mentioned in their SDKs.
> 
> I'm asking on this list because this is the best place I can think of where
> somebody may have encountered this before.  If it is inappropriate, please
> email me directly rather than posting as I do not want to perpetuate the
> problem :-)
> 
> Thanks,
> Brett
> res...@ga...
> GameBrains
> 
> 
> 
> 
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