gamedevlists-consoles — List for discussing game development on consoles like the PS2 and XBox

Re: [GD-Consoles] usb cable

[Research \(GameBrains\) <res...@ga...>]

Jase,
Thanks for your note.  We're not trying to debug (we use TOOLs for =
that), we are testing and the testers want to download the elf to the =
ps2 via a pc.  They asked me to have a look as there's no doc =
(strangely) about connecting the debug station to a pc in any of the =
Metrowerks docs, only the T10K.  Anyway, you answered my question, =
thanks!  We got loads of ethernet-usb adapters laying around :-)
Cheers,
Brett

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Jason G Doig" <jas...@py...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] usb cable


>=20
> The simple answer is that you can't do what you want to do - thats not =
how
> it works at all. The USB option in CW is for connecting using a USB =
network
> adapter on the PS2, not a USB->USB cable. Also, you can't debug across =
it,
> so I'm not sure it'll be much use to you. It's really aimed at people =
using
> the existing Sony comms stuff for TEST machines, not as a replacement =
devkit
> (because we don't actually permit that usage of a TEST). In other =
words you
> have to write special code to support it anyway.
>=20
> But anyway, this is the kind of thing that really should be discussed =
in the
> private forums where both MW and Sony people can speak freely about =
such
> things.
>=20
> Jase.
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Research (GameBrains)" <res...@ga...>
> To: <Gam...@li...>
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 9:04 AM
> Subject: [GD-Consoles] usb cable
>=20
>=20
> Okay, here's a lame question.  We use PS2 devkits normally, now we're
> (finally) ready to start testing with debug stations.  So =
CodeWarrior's
> ComUtil allows connection via USB, so far so good.  Can I just plug =
the
> cable into the debug kit from the PC (A to A cable!)?  Normally this =
would
> FRY two PCs and the PS2 seems to be a standard USB port so I'm =
worried.
> Funny, the debug kit doesn't seem to come with a special cable and the
> CodeWarrior doc doesn't mention it (at least in an obvious way).
>=20
> If it would fry my PS2 you'd think there be a bright neon-green notice
> screaming "don't use a normal A to A cable on this device".  Anyway, =
if
> somebody could let me know what kind of cable (A to A, A to B or USB =
Bridge)
> I need to connect my PC to a PS2 I would greatly appreciate it!
>=20
> Thanks,
> Brett Bibby
> GameBrains
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [GD-Consoles] usb cable

[Jason G D. <jas...@py...>]

The simple answer is that you can't do what you want to do - thats not how
it works at all. The USB option in CW is for connecting using a USB network
adapter on the PS2, not a USB->USB cable. Also, you can't debug across it,
so I'm not sure it'll be much use to you. It's really aimed at people using
the existing Sony comms stuff for TEST machines, not as a replacement devkit
(because we don't actually permit that usage of a TEST). In other words you
have to write special code to support it anyway.

But anyway, this is the kind of thing that really should be discussed in the
private forums where both MW and Sony people can speak freely about such
things.

Jase.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Research (GameBrains)" <res...@ga...>
To: <Gam...@li...>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 9:04 AM
Subject: [GD-Consoles] usb cable


Okay, here's a lame question.  We use PS2 devkits normally, now we're
(finally) ready to start testing with debug stations.  So CodeWarrior's
ComUtil allows connection via USB, so far so good.  Can I just plug the
cable into the debug kit from the PC (A to A cable!)?  Normally this would
FRY two PCs and the PS2 seems to be a standard USB port so I'm worried.
Funny, the debug kit doesn't seem to come with a special cable and the
CodeWarrior doc doesn't mention it (at least in an obvious way).

If it would fry my PS2 you'd think there be a bright neon-green notice
screaming "don't use a normal A to A cable on this device".  Anyway, if
somebody could let me know what kind of cable (A to A, A to B or USB Bridge)
I need to connect my PC to a PS2 I would greatly appreciate it!

Thanks,
Brett Bibby
GameBrains

[GD-Consoles] usb cable

[Research \(GameBrains\) <res...@ga...>]

Okay, here's a lame question.  We use PS2 devkits normally, now we're =
(finally) ready to start testing with debug stations.  So CodeWarrior's =
ComUtil allows connection via USB, so far so good.  Can I just plug the =
cable into the debug kit from the PC (A to A cable!)?  Normally this =
would FRY two PCs and the PS2 seems to be a standard USB port so I'm =
worried.  Funny, the debug kit doesn't seem to come with a special cable =
and the CodeWarrior doc doesn't mention it (at least in an obvious way).

If it would fry my PS2 you'd think there be a bright neon-green notice =
screaming "don't use a normal A to A cable on this device".  Anyway, if =
somebody could let me know what kind of cable (A to A, A to B or USB =
Bridge) I need to connect my PC to a PS2 I would greatly appreciate it!

Thanks,
Brett Bibby
GameBrains

Re: [GD-Consoles] username dictionaries

[Research \(GameBrains\) <res...@ga...>]

Thanks everyone for the enlightening posts.  Sounds like human approval =
is ultimately the only workable solution.  We could allow any username =
and then check them after the fact when time permits and then revoke or =
change them.

Does the same (dictionaries) go for in-game chat?  I know that AA =
changes profanity to asterisks but only if it exactly spelt.  I'm =
guessing this is just lip-service to trying to show some effort to =
thwart it to keep parents happy?  You'll never stop "kampers" from using =
"tactics" :-)

Cheers,
Brett

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Todd Showalter" <to...@ro...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] username dictionaries


> On Tue, 27 May 2003 18:21:27 +0800
> "Research \(GameBrains\)" <res...@ga...> wrote:
>=20
> > I'm trying to find a dictionary of vulgar, profane and obscene
> > usernames so that we can prevent users from signing up for an
> > account using one.  This must be a solved problem but I can't
> > seem to find any resources for this.  I thought perhaps the
> > console people that hang out in this forum might be more likely
> > to know something about this?
>=20
>     If by "solved problem" you mean "quagmire of madness in which
> many a good programmer has been lost", or perhaps "a solved problem
> the same way natural language parsing is a solved problem", then
> yes.  You'll get to something that handles some of the trivial stuff
> quite quickly, but you'll never get it all.
>=20
>     It's the strong ai problem, and you've got people working
> against you trying to see what they can slip by your validator.  Not
> only that, but you have people who's legitimate names may well
> contain substrings that match against your "bad word" dictionary
> (Sexton, Crapper...).  The best you can hope for is to flag
> suspicious names for later evaluation by a human.
>=20
>     It gets that much worse if you have to internationalize the
> thing; "shite" (shitay) is the imperative form of "suru" ("to do") in
> Japanese, and "phuque" is French for "sea lion" or "seal".  Every
> language in the world used for human discourse has its fair share of
> the vulgar, the profane and the obscene, and in many cases there's
> bad phonetic crosstalk with "good" words in other languages.
>=20
>     You also have the problem that if you do this kind of filtering,
> you've legally taken on a policy, which may have wider implications
> than you think.  For example, if you're filtering what people say
> in the slightest way (even just username validation), in some of the
> more litigious parts of the world you might find that opened you up
> to liability if some legal dispute (harassment?  slander?  mp3
> trading?) came up between some of your users, or between one of your
> users and the outside world.
>=20
>     Fundamentally, however, your biggest problem is your users;  =
Anyone
> who was going to try to use a "bad word" as their user name is going
> to try to do the same within whatever limits your system imposes.  =
You'll
> wind up with standard h4x0r speak, rude combinations of allowed words
> (how do you plan on blocking something like "HamsterStuffer" or
> "ManPole" or...?), and words that you won't know are offensive until =
you
> get mail from the offended.  Do you really think you can easily =
assemble
> a dictionary of all the racial slurs in the world?
>=20
>     If you really must filter user names, you're going to need a =
person
> to do it, and you're probably going to want a tool that deals with =
batches
> of names and categorizes them based on suspiciousness.  You'll still =
have
> lots of misses, the human reviewer will make mistakes and be subject =
to
> sliding standards based on their mood, but that's about the best you
> can hope for.
>=20
>     Or you could just assign a name, or give them whatever name you =
find
> on the billing address.  Most users will hate that, though.
>=20
>     If it's for kids, and you really, really want to sand off all the
> corners, you could always make the user name something like "adjective
> adjective noun", and you supply the lists of from which to pick in
> clickable form.  That solves the profanity problem (unless people can
> chat in-game, in which case you're screwed anyways...), at the expense
> of making initial name selection a trying experience for the user:
>=20
>     "Sorry, user name 'happy fluffy bunny' is already in use.  Sorry, =
user
> name 'fluffy happy bunny' is already in use.  Sorry, user name...".
>=20
> Todd.
>=20
> --=20
>   Todd Showalter
>   to...@ro...
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: ObjectStore.
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RE: [GD-Consoles] username dictionaries

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

StarTopia used a very tiny vocabulary of the commonest English profanities.
The code to replace them was incredibly simple - it could only change a
single letter. What started as a cheap hack became a game, and we had fun
finding stuff that swaer words could be transformed into by changing only
one letter.

Thing is, it was so laughably simplistic and ineffective at spotting swear
words (I think even putting stuff in caps fooled it) that nobody bothered
h4x0ring round it, so the amount of actual swearing was quite low, even
though everyone was calling each other funking punts and ship-eating tankers
(the nautical theme just sort of happened).


A handy list of English profanities can be found here. Good luck filtering
even this incomplete list from your game: www.profanisaurus.com (and it's
worth a laugh every now and then)


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hook [mailto:bri...@py...]
> Sent: 27 May 2003 16:18
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] username dictionaries
> 
> 
> >It gets that much worse if you have to internationalize the thing;
> 
> Like PlanetSide's insistence on filtering out "Jesus", even though 
> it's a common first name in the Hispanic world.
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: ObjectStore.
> If flattening out C++ or Java code to make your application fit in a
> relational database is painful, don't do it! Check out ObjectStore.
> Now part of Progress Software. http://www.objectstore.net/sourceforge
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU3
> 

RE: [GD-Consoles] username dictionaries

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

That's also a problem if you're a brit in the US; 'Jesus' is a common (and
_very_ weak... grandparent-friendly) swear word here, and it's always very
strange when some US guy gets offended by it.

On the other hand, of course, you can use (iirc) 'tosser' with impunity :)
And then you hit words like 'homely', which means 'like a home' in UK
English, and 'ugly' in US English. And remember, in the UK we walk on the
pavement, but don't have to dodge cars :)

Jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Brian Hook
Sent: 27 May 2003 16:18
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] username dictionaries


>It gets that much worse if you have to internationalize the thing;

Like PlanetSide's insistence on filtering out "Jesus", even though
it's a common first name in the Hispanic world.

Brian




-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: ObjectStore.
If flattening out C++ or Java code to make your application fit in a
relational database is painful, don't do it! Check out ObjectStore.
Now part of Progress Software. http://www.objectstore.net/sourceforge
_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
Archives:
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Re: [GD-Consoles] username dictionaries

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

>It gets that much worse if you have to internationalize the=
 thing;

Like PlanetSide's insistence on filtering out "Jesus", even=
 though 
it's a common first name in the Hispanic world.

Brian

Re: [GD-Consoles] username dictionaries

[Mickael P. <mpo...@ed...>]

>> I'm trying to find a dictionary of vulgar, profane and obscene
>> usernames so that we can prevent users from signing up for an
>> account using one.  This must be a solved problem but I can't
>> seem to find any resources for this.  I thought perhaps the
>> console people that hang out in this forum might be more likely
>> to know something about this?
>
>     If by "solved problem" you mean "quagmire of madness in which
> many a good programmer has been lost", or perhaps "a solved problem
> the same way natural language parsing is a solved problem", then
> yes.  You'll get to something that handles some of the trivial stuff
> quite quickly, but you'll never get it all.
>
>     It's the strong ai problem, and you've got people working
> against you trying to see what they can slip by your validator.  Not
> only that, but you have people who's legitimate names may well
> contain substrings that match against your "bad word" dictionary
> (Sexton, Crapper...).  The best you can hope for is to flag
> suspicious names for later evaluation by a human.
>
>     It gets that much worse if you have to internationalize the
> thing; "shite" (shitay) is the imperative form of "suru" ("to do") in
> Japanese, and "phuque" is French for "sea lion" or "seal".  Every

"Phoque" :)


> [...]

I agree with almost all that answer.
I've been playing on EverQuest for a while, and managing to find a name for
my character that got accepted by the system was painful. I'm French, and I
didn't understand why my 30 first proposals where rejected :(

I think the best system is to clearly ennounce rules, log everything that is
said by anyone and allow players to signal problems, the log file can then
be used to check if there's really a problem. Then give a warning, and after
few warnings get them banned definitively from the game.

After a very short while you can be almost sure that people will mostly self
discipline.

    Mickael Pointier

Re: [GD-Consoles] username dictionaries

[Todd S. <to...@ro...>]

On Tue, 27 May 2003 18:21:27 +0800
"Research \(GameBrains\)" <res...@ga...> wrote:

> I'm trying to find a dictionary of vulgar, profane and obscene
> usernames so that we can prevent users from signing up for an
> account using one.  This must be a solved problem but I can't
> seem to find any resources for this.  I thought perhaps the
> console people that hang out in this forum might be more likely
> to know something about this?

    If by "solved problem" you mean "quagmire of madness in which
many a good programmer has been lost", or perhaps "a solved problem
the same way natural language parsing is a solved problem", then
yes.  You'll get to something that handles some of the trivial stuff
quite quickly, but you'll never get it all.

    It's the strong ai problem, and you've got people working
against you trying to see what they can slip by your validator.  Not
only that, but you have people who's legitimate names may well
contain substrings that match against your "bad word" dictionary
(Sexton, Crapper...).  The best you can hope for is to flag
suspicious names for later evaluation by a human.

    It gets that much worse if you have to internationalize the
thing; "shite" (shitay) is the imperative form of "suru" ("to do") in
Japanese, and "phuque" is French for "sea lion" or "seal".  Every
language in the world used for human discourse has its fair share of
the vulgar, the profane and the obscene, and in many cases there's
bad phonetic crosstalk with "good" words in other languages.

    You also have the problem that if you do this kind of filtering,
you've legally taken on a policy, which may have wider implications
than you think.  For example, if you're filtering what people say
in the slightest way (even just username validation), in some of the
more litigious parts of the world you might find that opened you up
to liability if some legal dispute (harassment?  slander?  mp3
trading?) came up between some of your users, or between one of your
users and the outside world.

    Fundamentally, however, your biggest problem is your users;  Anyone
who was going to try to use a "bad word" as their user name is going
to try to do the same within whatever limits your system imposes.  You'll
wind up with standard h4x0r speak, rude combinations of allowed words
(how do you plan on blocking something like "HamsterStuffer" or
"ManPole" or...?), and words that you won't know are offensive until you
get mail from the offended.  Do you really think you can easily assemble
a dictionary of all the racial slurs in the world?

    If you really must filter user names, you're going to need a person
to do it, and you're probably going to want a tool that deals with batches
of names and categorizes them based on suspiciousness.  You'll still have
lots of misses, the human reviewer will make mistakes and be subject to
sliding standards based on their mood, but that's about the best you
can hope for.

    Or you could just assign a name, or give them whatever name you find
on the billing address.  Most users will hate that, though.

    If it's for kids, and you really, really want to sand off all the
corners, you could always make the user name something like "adjective
adjective noun", and you supply the lists of from which to pick in
clickable form.  That solves the profanity problem (unless people can
chat in-game, in which case you're screwed anyways...), at the expense
of making initial name selection a trying experience for the user:

    "Sorry, user name 'happy fluffy bunny' is already in use.  Sorry, user
name 'fluffy happy bunny' is already in use.  Sorry, user name...".

							Todd.

-- 
  Todd Showalter
  to...@ro...

[GD-Consoles] username dictionaries

[Research \(GameBrains\) <res...@ga...>]

I'm trying to find a dictionary of vulgar, profane and obscene usernames =
so that we can prevent users from signing up for an account using one.  =
This must be a solved problem but I can't seem to find any resources for =
this.  I thought perhaps the console people that hang out in this forum =
might be more likely to know something about this?
Thanks,
Brett Bibby
GameBrains

RE: [GD-Consoles] Re: New PS1 dev ??

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

Sure, but in most cases (N-Gage, PS2 Linux, PC-pretending-to-be-XBox, etc),
you can make a pretty good game with freely-available stuff, then pitch it
to a publisher, saying "and obviously it'll be 20% better on the real kit".
It's not terribly hard to get a deal based on a 90% finished game, even in
these days of misery and torment.

Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: TyN [mailto:cs...@oz...]
> Sent: 12 May 2003 02:08
> To: Gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Consoles] Re: New PS1 dev ??
> 
> 
> I hate to waste bandwidth with circular conversations that 
> don't go anywhere
> but I have also looked into this and although you can get the 
> Nokia Series
> 60 SDK without any trouble, as I have, the N-Gage SDK is a 
> very different
> proposition.
> 
> The N-Gage is based on the Series 60 platform however the 
> differences are
> what make the platform interesting and you cannot access 
> these (accelerated
> hardware access, additional features, etc.) without using the 
> Nokia N-Gage
> SDK, which you cannot get until you are a successful company 
> with a bunch of
> cash.
> 
> My point is simply that all the console platforms seem to be closed to
> independent (or garage) developers.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Ty
> 
> "Tom Forsyth" <to...@mu...> wrote in message
> news:F9CD80F99127D211BA2B00A0C9D855CD01288605@LORDANDMASTER...
> > > The same is true
> > > for Nokia and their, as yet unreleased, N-Gage hardware.
> >
> > Er... don't think so. The SDK is freely available, you can start
> developing
> > on existing phones - it's just a Series 60 in a different 
> package and with
> > some extra hardware (cartridge, FM reciever, network stuff, etc). So
> > starting development is easy.
> >
> > Now getting a game published is a different kettle of fish 
> of course, but
> if
> > you have an actual game developed, it's pretty simple to go to the
> platform
> > vendors and get it out into the marketplace.
> >
> > The gotcha with the consoles is that you can't even start 
> development
> until
> > you've done this process. But that's not true of N-Gage.
> >
> >
> > I'm not associated with Nokia, and Muckyfoot don't develop 
> for them or
> > anything - I've just looked into this because as a hobby I 
> like to code on
> > mobile devices.
> >
> >
> > Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.
> >
> > This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> > and does not in any way imply existence of the author.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: TyN [mailto:cs...@oz...]
> > > Sent: 09 May 2003 06:13
> > > To: Gam...@li...
> > > Subject: [GD-Consoles] New PS1 dev ??
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am hoping this list is frequented by some Sony representatives.
> > >
> > > Does Sony support new developers coming into the PS1 platform
> > > now, or is
> > > everything focused on the PS2?
> > >
> > > I am interested in building games that would suite the PS1
> > > more than the
> > > PS2, given the hype that surrounds the next generation'ness
> > > of the PS2.  I
> > > am an independent developer and would like to get whatever
> > > kit is necessary
> > > to break into the PS1 marketplace.  Does anyone know how to
> > > do this, or even
> > > if it is possible?
> > >
> > > I know that Nintendo has such overbearing requirements for
> > > their developer
> > > licences that you pretty much have to be a successful game
> > > company with a
> > > bunch of cash before you can even get into the GBA market.
> > > The same is true
> > > for Nokia and their, as yet unreleased, N-Gage hardware.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Ty
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > Enterprise Linux Forum Conference & Expo, June 4-6, 2003, 
> Santa Clara
> > > The only event dedicated to issues related to Linux
> > > enterprise solutions
> > > www.enterpriselinuxforum.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> > > Gam...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> > > Archives:
> > > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553
> > >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > Enterprise Linux Forum Conference & Expo, June 4-6, 2003, 
> Santa Clara
> > The only event dedicated to issues related to Linux 
> enterprise solutions
> > www.enterpriselinuxforum.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> > Gam...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> > Archives:
> > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Enterprise Linux Forum Conference & Expo, June 4-6, 2003, Santa Clara
> The only event dedicated to issues related to Linux 
> enterprise solutions
> www.enterpriselinuxforum.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives:
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> 

Re: [GD-Consoles] Re: New PS1 dev ??

[Jason G D. <jas...@py...>]

From: "TyN" <cs...@oz...>
> My point is simply that all the console platforms seem to be closed to
> independent (or garage) developers.

For those who wish to develop on a Sony platform and don't have the
resources to sign up as a licensed developer, there are other official
routes available. For PS1, there was Net Yaroze and for PS2, we offer PS2
Linux. There isn't a direct distribution route you can take from there, but
you can quite happily develop stuff for next to no money at all, and once
you put something together you can probably find a publisher to back you.

I don't know if there's much life left in Yaroze, except amongst a small
hardcore of users, or students at one of the universities where PSX
programming is part of the course - and technically you're not supposed to
sell the systems on either, as there was a big bunch of paperwork to sign
before you could get one. PS2 Linux on the other hand is easy to obtain and
has a pretty active community, and you also get direct support from Sony
staff.

Jase

[GD-Consoles] Re: New PS1 dev ??

[TyN <cs...@oz...>]

I hate to waste bandwidth with circular conversations that don't go anywhere
but I have also looked into this and although you can get the Nokia Series
60 SDK without any trouble, as I have, the N-Gage SDK is a very different
proposition.

The N-Gage is based on the Series 60 platform however the differences are
what make the platform interesting and you cannot access these (accelerated
hardware access, additional features, etc.) without using the Nokia N-Gage
SDK, which you cannot get until you are a successful company with a bunch of
cash.

My point is simply that all the console platforms seem to be closed to
independent (or garage) developers.


Regards,
Ty

"Tom Forsyth" <to...@mu...> wrote in message
news:F9CD80F99127D211BA2B00A0C9D855CD01288605@LORDANDMASTER...
> > The same is true
> > for Nokia and their, as yet unreleased, N-Gage hardware.
>
> Er... don't think so. The SDK is freely available, you can start
developing
> on existing phones - it's just a Series 60 in a different package and with
> some extra hardware (cartridge, FM reciever, network stuff, etc). So
> starting development is easy.
>
> Now getting a game published is a different kettle of fish of course, but
if
> you have an actual game developed, it's pretty simple to go to the
platform
> vendors and get it out into the marketplace.
>
> The gotcha with the consoles is that you can't even start development
until
> you've done this process. But that's not true of N-Gage.
>
>
> I'm not associated with Nokia, and Muckyfoot don't develop for them or
> anything - I've just looked into this because as a hobby I like to code on
> mobile devices.
>
>
> Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.
>
> This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> and does not in any way imply existence of the author.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TyN [mailto:cs...@oz...]
> > Sent: 09 May 2003 06:13
> > To: Gam...@li...
> > Subject: [GD-Consoles] New PS1 dev ??
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am hoping this list is frequented by some Sony representatives.
> >
> > Does Sony support new developers coming into the PS1 platform
> > now, or is
> > everything focused on the PS2?
> >
> > I am interested in building games that would suite the PS1
> > more than the
> > PS2, given the hype that surrounds the next generation'ness
> > of the PS2.  I
> > am an independent developer and would like to get whatever
> > kit is necessary
> > to break into the PS1 marketplace.  Does anyone know how to
> > do this, or even
> > if it is possible?
> >
> > I know that Nintendo has such overbearing requirements for
> > their developer
> > licences that you pretty much have to be a successful game
> > company with a
> > bunch of cash before you can even get into the GBA market.
> > The same is true
> > for Nokia and their, as yet unreleased, N-Gage hardware.
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> > Ty
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > Enterprise Linux Forum Conference & Expo, June 4-6, 2003, Santa Clara
> > The only event dedicated to issues related to Linux
> > enterprise solutions
> > www.enterpriselinuxforum.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> > Gam...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> > Archives:
> > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553
> >
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Enterprise Linux Forum Conference & Expo, June 4-6, 2003, Santa Clara
> The only event dedicated to issues related to Linux enterprise solutions
> www.enterpriselinuxforum.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553
>

RE: [GD-Consoles] New PS1 dev ??

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

> The same is true
> for Nokia and their, as yet unreleased, N-Gage hardware.

Er... don't think so. The SDK is freely available, you can start developing
on existing phones - it's just a Series 60 in a different package and with
some extra hardware (cartridge, FM reciever, network stuff, etc). So
starting development is easy.

Now getting a game published is a different kettle of fish of course, but if
you have an actual game developed, it's pretty simple to go to the platform
vendors and get it out into the marketplace.

The gotcha with the consoles is that you can't even start development until
you've done this process. But that's not true of N-Gage.


I'm not associated with Nokia, and Muckyfoot don't develop for them or
anything - I've just looked into this because as a hobby I like to code on
mobile devices.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: TyN [mailto:cs...@oz...]
> Sent: 09 May 2003 06:13
> To: Gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Consoles] New PS1 dev ??
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am hoping this list is frequented by some Sony representatives.
> 
> Does Sony support new developers coming into the PS1 platform 
> now, or is
> everything focused on the PS2?
> 
> I am interested in building games that would suite the PS1 
> more than the
> PS2, given the hype that surrounds the next generation'ness 
> of the PS2.  I
> am an independent developer and would like to get whatever 
> kit is necessary
> to break into the PS1 marketplace.  Does anyone know how to 
> do this, or even
> if it is possible?
> 
> I know that Nintendo has such overbearing requirements for 
> their developer
> licences that you pretty much have to be a successful game 
> company with a
> bunch of cash before you can even get into the GBA market.  
> The same is true
> for Nokia and their, as yet unreleased, N-Gage hardware.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Ty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Enterprise Linux Forum Conference & Expo, June 4-6, 2003, Santa Clara
> The only event dedicated to issues related to Linux 
> enterprise solutions
> www.enterpriselinuxforum.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553
> 

Re: [GD-Consoles] New PS1 dev ??

[Jason G D. <jas...@py...>]

> Hi,
>
> I am hoping this list is frequented by some Sony representatives.
>
> Does Sony support new developers coming into the PS1 platform now, or is
> everything focused on the PS2?

Support is definitely focused on PS2, I can't pretend otherwise. However we
do still get a small amount of PS1 related traffic, and I think in theory at
least we'll support it until no-one cares any more. PS1 still sells a lot of
units after all. Of course most PS1 developers have been around a while and
typically don't need much in the way of support. I think most information on
development is already out there so very rarely does anyone need to ask us
anything anymore.

Of course you still need to sign up to get proper development kit and access
to the support website etc.

> I am interested in building games that would suite the PS1 more than the
> PS2, given the hype that surrounds the next generation'ness of the PS2.  I

Hmmm...  I kind of figured the whole next-generation hype had died down now,
several years into the lifetime of the platform...

PS1 kit is pretty cheap now though I think...

> am an independent developer and would like to get whatever kit is
necessary
> to break into the PS1 marketplace.  Does anyone know how to do this, or
even
> if it is possible?

It's possible, yes...  see below.

> I know that Nintendo has such overbearing requirements for their developer
> licences that you pretty much have to be a successful game company with a
> bunch of cash before you can even get into the GBA market.  The same is
true
> for Nokia and their, as yet unreleased, N-Gage hardware.

I'm not sure how much better we are... However if you want to try signing
up, just pop along to our website and fill in the appropriate forms. If
(guessing by your email address) you're based in Australia, you're part of
the SCEE territory:

http://www.technology.scee.net/sceesite/software.html

Information about signing up to our developer programs can be found there.
It basically just outlines the initial requirements and then if you're still
interested we'll send you a bunch more forms in which you have to sell us
your soul, and first born child before we let you give us money in exchange
for kit.

Cheers,

Jase.

[GD-Consoles] New PS1 dev ??

[TyN <cs...@oz...>]

Hi,

I am hoping this list is frequented by some Sony representatives.

Does Sony support new developers coming into the PS1 platform now, or is
everything focused on the PS2?

I am interested in building games that would suite the PS1 more than the
PS2, given the hype that surrounds the next generation'ness of the PS2.  I
am an independent developer and would like to get whatever kit is necessary
to break into the PS1 marketplace.  Does anyone know how to do this, or even
if it is possible?

I know that Nintendo has such overbearing requirements for their developer
licences that you pretty much have to be a successful game company with a
bunch of cash before you can even get into the GBA market.  The same is true
for Nokia and their, as yet unreleased, N-Gage hardware.


Thanks
Ty

Re: [GD-Consoles] pipelines

[Research \(GameBrains\) <res...@ga...>]

Should have been clearer :-)  Our 3d assets come out with a root file =
name and an extension as to their type (e.g. LVL001.BSP).  If the source =
asset needs/has platform specific versions (e.g. higher poly, =
multi-texture, etc.) it comes out with a platform code in the name (e.g. =
LVL001.PS2.BSP).  We use MAKE to process the files, extract the platform =
code, and pass the files to custom (platform specific) backend tools to =
generate optimized runtime assets.

The glue to hold it all together is XML via a scenegraph.  So for a =
given actor (or light, camera, texture, etc.), I specify the model name, =
attributes, position, etc., etc. in the XML (level editor can read/write =
scenegraph or you can use text editor).  It is here that we are =
currently specifying what pipes go with what assets on which platform.  =
Where the model data comes out with platform specific versions, all =
platforms use the XML scenegraph to build the runtime database.  Without =
the pipeline info in the XML, it is clean so I wanted to get it out, and =
I wondered how others are storing their shaders, etc. and keeping them =
linked to the assets they render.

In case anybody is wondering why we do it in XML and not MAX it's =
because a) it's easier b) the programmers can change the pipe without =
bugging an artist (or needing their own license for MAX) and c) we =
seldom need Tom's Big-Artist-Stick (tm) because the artists don't need =
to worry about pipelines (but they do use the various effects and our =
exporters figure out what they are trying to do and we take care of =
reproducing it on the console)

The final phase is building a runtime scenegraph with pre-selected, =
pre-instanced assets so that at runtime we just load the graph in the =
blink of an eye and we're done.  So we don't carry any excess baggage =
around, no load searching, etc.

So more exactly, is anybody binding the shaders/custom code to the =
assets in their tool chain like we are?  Or is the binding done ad hoc =
in code by programmers?  Or are the pipes loaded, asset tagged, and =
binding done at runtime?  Or are they being embedded in the assets in =
the 3d package?  Or???

Thanks,
Brett Bibby
GameBrains


----- Original Message -----=20
From: <phi...@pl...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 1:54 AM
Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] pipelines


>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > I hope I understand what you are saying, are you saying that you put =
all
> your data assets for every console into one file format, so one file =
can be
> loaded into any console?
>=20
> I read it as the first half, but not the second half. As in you'd =
author
> for cross-platform, and all of that data would be held in one file. =
Then
> you have back ends for each platform that compiles into platform =
specific
> formats.
>=20
> Even if your output container format is fundamentally cross platform =
(which
> I'd reccomend), most of your larger chunks are going to be platform
> specific (i.e. texture, model and audio data), or your load times are =
going
> to be needlessly long as you'd be doing the per-platform processing on =
the
> fly.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Phil
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D553

Re: [GD-Consoles] pipelines

[<phi...@pl...>]

> I hope I understand what you are saying, are you saying that you put all
your data assets for every console into one file format, so one file can be
loaded into any console?

I read it as the first half, but not the second half. As in you'd author
for cross-platform, and all of that data would be held in one file. Then
you have back ends for each platform that compiles into platform specific
formats.

Even if your output container format is fundamentally cross platform (which
I'd reccomend), most of your larger chunks are going to be platform
specific (i.e. texture, model and audio data), or your load times are going
to be needlessly long as you'd be doing the per-platform processing on the
fly.

Cheers,
Phil

Re: [GD-Consoles] pipelines

[MAIL <ma...@si...>]

I hope I understand what you are saying, are you saying that you put all
your data assets for every console into one file format, so one file can be
loaded into any console?

If so wouldn't it be easier to just have separate data assets for each
console type and then just tack on XML and whatever else onto each one.
Wouldn't it save on space, be less confusing and have faster load times.

It would probably be better to have a separate export function in your tools
for each different console.  IE:  PC has it's own data format and a specific
export function in the tool and PS2 will have it's own ect...

If you look at it from a more simplistic view, you would not have PS2
textures and Directx surface textures each in the same file so that only one
file would be created that could be loaded on any console, would you?

But to answer your question and not tell you to not do what you are doing, I
would just simply have a console type hook in the file that the console
specific engine looks for when it is loading the file, and you could
abstract the hook type function into your platform independent engine so
that at load time the engine would know what specific console hook to look
for, since that was loaded at run-time and it handles itself without the
engine having to know what console it is running on.

cheers,
Paul Hope
SimuDream.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Research (GameBrains)" <res...@ga...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 9:05 PM
Subject: [GD-Consoles] pipelines


Hello,
I was wondering how people here handle the different rendering pipelines
across multiple platforms from a tool chain perspective.  For instance, if
you had VU code for PS2, TEV settings for GCN and PS/VS for PC how do you
tag the asset to use the correct "pipe" on different platforms for assets
that are multi-platform capable?

Currently we use XML as a scene description language on the front-end, with
MAKE utility on the backend, and we tie the asset, data and miscellaneous
stuff to it in there (XML, not makefile).  Works well so far (although a bit
ugly), but wondering if we ought to do it another way....

Cheers,
Brett Bibby
GameBrains


-------------------------------------------------------
This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
Welcome to geek heaven.
http://thinkgeek.com/sf
_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
Archives:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU3

[GD-Consoles] pipelines

[Research \(GameBrains\) <res...@ga...>]

Hello,
I was wondering how people here handle the different rendering pipelines =
across multiple platforms from a tool chain perspective.  For instance, =
if you had VU code for PS2, TEV settings for GCN and PS/VS for PC how do =
you tag the asset to use the correct "pipe" on different platforms for =
assets that are multi-platform capable?

Currently we use XML as a scene description language on the front-end, =
with MAKE utility on the backend, and we tie the asset, data and =
miscellaneous stuff to it in there (XML, not makefile).  Works well so =
far (although a bit ugly), but wondering if we ought to do it another =
way....

Cheers,
Brett Bibby
GameBrains

RE: [GD-Consoles] anyone used Ogg Vorbis on PS2/GCN?

[Mat N. \(\(BUNGIE\)\) <mat...@mi...>]

Depends on the sound type. Usually music and background ambience was
stereo; the rest was mono 3d-positioned sound.

MSN

-----Original Message-----
From: Mickael Pointier [mailto:mpo...@ed...]=20
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 8:24 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] anyone used Ogg Vorbis on PS2/GCN?

Mat Noguchi ((BUNGIE)) wrote:
> Talking with our audio guys (admittedly for non PS2/GCN games), even
> at a high quality bitrate, psychoacoustic compression (MP3, Ogg, WMA)
> tends to yield a much higher compression than 4:1 (in our case
> ~3.5:1). Considering that even on the Xbox we had 150 MB of
> compressed 22kHz sound data per level, most of which was level
> specific dialog, you can see how much even just a10:1 compression
> scheme would help, even with a CPU hit.

Is this all stereo sound ?
(I don't expect "dialogs" to be stored as stereo samples)

    Mickael Pointier






-------------------------------------------------------
This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
Welcome to geek heaven.
http://thinkgeek.com/sf
_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
Archives:
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Re: [GD-Consoles] anyone used Ogg Vorbis on PS2/GCN?

[Mickael P. <mpo...@ed...>]

Mat Noguchi ((BUNGIE)) wrote:
> Talking with our audio guys (admittedly for non PS2/GCN games), even
> at a high quality bitrate, psychoacoustic compression (MP3, Ogg, WMA)
> tends to yield a much higher compression than 4:1 (in our case
> ~3.5:1). Considering that even on the Xbox we had 150 MB of
> compressed 22kHz sound data per level, most of which was level
> specific dialog, you can see how much even just a10:1 compression
> scheme would help, even with a CPU hit.

Is this all stereo sound ?
(I don't expect "dialogs" to be stored as stereo samples)

    Mickael Pointier

RE: [GD-Consoles] anyone used Ogg Vorbis on PS2/GCN?

[Mat N. \(\(BUNGIE\)\) <mat...@mi...>]

Talking with our audio guys (admittedly for non PS2/GCN games), even at =
a high quality bitrate, psychoacoustic compression (MP3, Ogg, WMA) tends =
to yield a much higher compression than 4:1 (in our case ~3.5:1). =
Considering that even on the Xbox we had 150 MB of compressed 22kHz =
sound data per level, most of which was level specific dialog, you can =
see how much even just a10:1 compression scheme would help, even with a =
CPU hit.
=20
MSN

________________________________

From: Michael Pohoreski [mailto:MPo...@cy...]
Sent: Mon 4/14/2003 7:53 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-Consoles] anyone used Ogg Vorbis on PS2/GCN?



I'm not sure why this myth has started that you can't stream audio and =
data at the same time.  We, and many other people are doing it.  We're =
also are using a smart IOP streamer (Multistream rocks!), so streaming =
audio data has no EE hit.

My conclusion on PS2 OGG (cool factor aside) is why would someone take =
an IOP hit decoding MP3 in software, when there already is hardware =
support for compressed audio at a 4:1 compression ratio (over WAVs.)  =
You're not saving "that much" IOP / SPU memory.

-----Original Message-----=20
From: brian sharon [mailto:pud...@po...]=20
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 12:59 PM=20
To: gam...@li...=20
Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] anyone used Ogg Vorbis on PS2/GCN?=20


Key points from the newsgroup discussion:=20

But what I really got out of the discussion was a need to question the=20
ancient wisdom that you can't stream audio and data at the same time=20
(you'd think GTA3 would have caused me to do that, but I'm kinda slow=20
sometimes).  On PS2, the Multistream library looks like it can give me=20
a pretty efficient implementation of streaming audio while streaming=20
data.  Obviously on Xbox you have so much flexibility with the hard=20
drive that it's dead simple to do both.  So the thing I need to figure=20
out now is whether I can pull off streaming music and data=20
simultaneously on GCN.  And if not, maybe I'll end up using Vorbis=20
there.=20

--brian=20

On Saturday, April 12, 2003, at 07:55  PM, J. Grant wrote:=20

> Hi Michael,=20
>=20
> Out of interest what was the conclusion of this discussion? I do not=20
> have access to sce.* newsgroups.=20
>=20
> Which released console titles use Ogg Vorbis steams?=20
>=20
> Do sound API's like Miles support Ogg Streams now?=20

RE: [GD-Consoles] anyone used Ogg Vorbis on PS2/GCN?

[Michael P. <MPo...@cy...>]

I'm not sure why this myth has started that you can't stream audio and
data at the same time.  We, and many other people are doing it.  We're
also are using a smart IOP streamer (Multistream rocks!), so streaming
audio data has no EE hit.

My conclusion on PS2 OGG (cool factor aside) is why would someone take
an IOP hit decoding MP3 in software, when there already is hardware
support for compressed audio at a 4:1 compression ratio (over WAVs.)
You're not saving "that much" IOP / SPU memory.

-----Original Message-----
From: brian sharon [mailto:pud...@po...]=20
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 12:59 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-Consoles] anyone used Ogg Vorbis on PS2/GCN?


Key points from the newsgroup discussion:

But what I really got out of the discussion was a need to question the=20
ancient wisdom that you can't stream audio and data at the same time=20
(you'd think GTA3 would have caused me to do that, but I'm kinda slow=20
sometimes).  On PS2, the Multistream library looks like it can give me=20
a pretty efficient implementation of streaming audio while streaming=20
data.  Obviously on Xbox you have so much flexibility with the hard=20
drive that it's dead simple to do both.  So the thing I need to figure=20
out now is whether I can pull off streaming music and data=20
simultaneously on GCN.  And if not, maybe I'll end up using Vorbis=20
there.

--brian

On Saturday, April 12, 2003, at 07:55  PM, J. Grant wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> Out of interest what was the conclusion of this discussion? I do not
> have access to sce.* newsgroups.
>
> Which released console titles use Ogg Vorbis steams?
>
> Do sound API's like Miles support Ogg Streams now?

RE: [GD-Consoles] anyone used Ogg Vorbis on PS2/GCN?

[Amy P. <Am...@cs...>]

Hello!

>  So the thing I need 
> to figure 
> out now is whether I can pull off streaming music and data 
> simultaneously on GCN.  And if not, maybe I'll end up using Vorbis 
> there.
We streamed music and data in for Burnout 2 on GCN, and with a little
tweaking it all worked fine.  We set the priority of music reads to be
higher than that of other reads.  We also had to break up some of the larger
track data reads into chunks, because once a read has started it doesn't
seem to get interrupted by any new higher priority reads.  And if you can
stream it all in fast enough overall on PS2, you'll be fine on GCN :)

HTH,

	Amy