From: Warner, C. <Chr...@ny...> - 2008-11-22 14:09:03
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At this point i'm confused as to why we need official plone blessing. Not that i'd like to work outside the fold or not work with people to reach a goal but from these emails I'm getting it seems like this has been going on for a while. If that's the case I can setup plonedoc.net or something and any like minded people that want to work together to get something done can come together and we can get it done. If the official plone blessing comes later or never that's quite alright with me so long as the documentation exists somewhere the users and developers will find it. If it exists behind closed doors or doesn't exist at all it doesn't even matter if it's officially blessed or not because it doesn't exist. -C -----Original Message----- From: Dylan Jay [mailto:dy...@dy...] Sent: Sat 11/22/2008 1:23 AM To: Warner, Christopher Subject: RE: [Plone-docs] If core code is undocumented it's broken(Was:where should developer documentation go?) I couldn't agree with you more. Which is why I setup kaizenplone.org in the first place. However I can't see an effort like that ever making it if it doesn't have official plone blessing. Dylan Jay Technical Solutions Manager, PretaWeb.com --- M:+61421477460 ~ MSN:dj...@ho... ~ Y!+Skype:dylan_jay ~ ICQ:520341 ________________________________ From: Warner, Christopher [mailto:Chr...@ny...] Sent: Saturday, 22 November 2008 4:36 PM To: Marco De Vitis; plo...@li... Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] If core code is undocumented it's broken(Was:where should developer documentation go?) I disagree with this.. Primarily because it's people like me who get blocks of time to contribute back to a wiki like setup. So I get a day or two, or thanksgiving vacation to reflect and catchup. I jot down a page, two, more. Even if it's a paragraph it's more than what existed before. What happens now is this when I want to do or find something out about Plone. 1. Open Terminal. 2. cd /Plone 3. grep -rw "whatever i need" * That's unacceptable and it gets increasingly annoying. What really provoked my whole document diatribe is because new developers can't even get started. New users can't even understand half of what is coming out of my mouth. Explaining it to them and then letting them loose without documentation is pointless. They don't know what's going on, they get frustrated and no business is going to bet their CONTENT on something that doesn't even have documentation. Do you know how hard it would of been for me to sell Zope/Plone if I was at NBC, Universal, Conde Nast? Do you know how much content those places have?? We don't even have a foot in the door. Far less finding developers who don't bad mouth Zope and Plone. It's not like i'm making this stuff up; In the media industry especially.. Zope and Plone specifically have a very very bad name. It'd be ok if it was just the developers but it's the business types who are saying it now and what they are saying is obviously true. "Yeah we had the Zope people do it for us but it turned out to be inflexible because we couldn't figure it out" WORD FOR WORD "Did you deploy your stuff yet Chris?? I wanted to use Plone but I can't justify it, because there is no documentation, so I had to nix this go round; Drupal is gonna kill us for a 2-3 years" WORD FOR WORD All I keep hearing about is Drupal this and Drupal that.. It sickens me. Then there's my own situation where there are developers that want to learn but they aren't highly proficient, they are learning.. This guy Wayne Glover just sent some high level documentation and I wish he would share it with the list. If the documentation situation is getting better; then fine I realize I'm new to this debate but new developers, new people to Plone need some cohesive documentation; To. Day. If you think it's good now; it can be much much better and I just want to get this process started and morph all these paragraphs into something useful. So what's next? I'm not trying to step on anyones toes or anyones contributions. I love everyone. So, are we setting up this wiki or what? -C -----Original Message----- From: Marco De Vitis [mailto:sta...@sp...] Sent: Fri 11/21/2008 7:22 PM To: plo...@li... Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] If core code is undocumented it's broken (Was:where should developer documentation go?) Il 19-11-2008 4:19, Dylan Jay ha scritto: > One way we could do that is publish earlier rather than later. > That whole roadmap pretty much falls on the doc team to implement it alone, > which is huge amount of work as veda hinted. > > This is just an idea but it might solve the getting people to help problem. > > We could release the manuals uncompleted like argouml has > > http://argouml-stats.tigris.org/documentation/manual-0.26/ > > with (to be written) all over the place. Hi, sorry but I have to say I personally hate this. I hate it when I start reading a doc, browse through its juicy table of contents thinking "Hmm, I'm gonna learn lots of great stuff here!", but then, soon after a first newbie-stuff-I-already-knew part, I start banging on "to be written" pages and do not find any of the great contents I expected to be there. It happened to me a couple of times at least, while reading docs for some other open source project, and it left me with a bitter taste of "useless documentation". I also don't think it really exhorts people to write missing content, because people reading the doc are most probably not yet able to contribute content, while people possessing the required expertise can contribute content anyway if they feel like doing it, regardless of any "to be written" sign. Sorry if this is my only post in recent times but I'm still trying to clear up the mess in my life. I still love Plone and love docs, but can't find the time to contribute. I'm catching up with all recent messages here right now, and I'm amazed at the recent activity, you're all doing a great job! -- Ciao, Marco. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plo...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
From: JoAnna S. <jl...@gm...> - 2008-11-22 17:08:16
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On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Warner, Christopher <Chr...@ny...> wrote: > At this point i'm confused as to why we need official plone blessing. Not > that i'd like to work outside the fold or not work with people to reach a > goal but from these emails I'm getting it seems like this has been going on > for a while. If that's the case I can setup plonedoc.net or something and > any like minded people that want to work together to get something done can > come together and we can get it done. If the official plone blessing comes > later or never that's quite alright with me so long as the documentation > exists somewhere the users and developers will find it. > > If it exists behind closed doors or doesn't exist at all it doesn't even > matter if it's officially blessed or not because it doesn't exist. Not 100% sure but I think you need to ask for permission from the board on the URL. Jon Stahl or Steve M would know more about that. But as far as starting on something now, no nothing is stopping you. Dylan set up kaizenplone awhile ago. To be really honest with you though, I don't think it matters what/how you set it up. Ultimately, it's finding people to contribute. That's going to be the issue no matter what direction we go. Not everyone knows everything about Plone. So we're at the mercy of those with the knowledge to find time to contribute. I think you'll run into the same thing once you've exhausted your own knowledge. If you're willing to try and have the time then by all means do it. Everyone just stop bitching and put your words into actions. Write it in a text file on your hard drive. I don't care. Just get it written down. If whatever method you chose ends up being successful, we'll definitely take a look at it for plone.org. But for now the doc team will continue as planned with the roadmap. We have many different things we want to accomplish and I don't see why we can't focus on more than one at a time. |
From: Dylan J. <dy...@dy...> - 2008-11-22 17:38:18
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Feel free to contribute to kaizenplone although please note the email notifications aren't functioning yet. However as Joanna rightly points out its not about permission but more about contributors. If it's not on Plone.org is will be harder to get people you don't directly know to contribute as they may feel like their effort won't be seen or may disappear. At the conference Martin rightly pointed this out as a pitfall in what he otherwise considered a good idea. Which has lead me back to these discussions with the docteam about the possibility of being slightly more flexible with their roadmap, if only with regard to developer documentation as it has the unique needs. > -----Original Message----- > From: JoAnna Springsteen [mailto:jl...@gm...] > Sent: Sunday, 23 November 2008 4:08 AM > To: Warner, Christopher > Cc: Dylan Jay; plo...@li...; cw...@ke... > Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] If core code is undocumented it's > broken(Was:where should developer documentation go?) > > On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Warner, Christopher > <Chr...@ny...> wrote: > > At this point i'm confused as to why we need official plone blessing. > Not > > that i'd like to work outside the fold or not work with people to reach > a > > goal but from these emails I'm getting it seems like this has been going > on > > for a while. If that's the case I can setup plonedoc.net or something > and > > any like minded people that want to work together to get something done > can > > come together and we can get it done. If the official plone blessing > comes > > later or never that's quite alright with me so long as the documentation > > exists somewhere the users and developers will find it. > > > > If it exists behind closed doors or doesn't exist at all it doesn't even > > matter if it's officially blessed or not because it doesn't exist. > > Not 100% sure but I think you need to ask for permission from the > board on the URL. Jon Stahl or Steve M would know more about that. > But as far as starting on something now, no nothing is stopping you. > Dylan set up kaizenplone awhile ago. > To be really honest with you though, I don't think it matters what/how > you set it up. Ultimately, it's finding people to contribute. That's > going to be the issue no matter what direction we go. Not everyone > knows everything about Plone. So we're at the mercy of those with the > knowledge to find time to contribute. I think you'll run into the same > thing once you've exhausted your own knowledge. If you're willing to > try and have the time then by all means do it. Everyone just stop > bitching and put your words into actions. Write it in a text file on > your hard drive. I don't care. Just get it written down. > If whatever method you chose ends up being successful, we'll > definitely take a look at it for plone.org. But for now the doc team > will continue as planned with the roadmap. We have many different > things we want to accomplish and I don't see why we can't focus on > more than one at a time. |