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[Pcgen-trackers] [ pcgen-Feature Requests-883078 ] Weapon finesse for grappling?
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From: SourceForge.net <no...@so...> - 2005-08-15 23:05:01
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Feature Requests item #883078, was opened at 2004-01-23 16:00 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by nuance You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=384722&aid=883078&group_id=25576 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. Category: Campaign Support Group: None >Status: Closed Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Siegfried Frosch (siegfried1) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Weapon finesse for grappling? Initial Comment: My personal interpretation of the feat weapon finesse was always that you get the DEX bonus instead of the STR bonus in all forms of attack with the finesseable weapons. As unarmed strikes are finesseable and grappling obviously is done without weapons (--> unarmed) I do apply my DEX bonus to the grapple check also instead of the STR bonus. There are no rules that make this very explicit, so I don't know whether the above is correct, but at least there are a number of monsters that do grapple and that use the feat weapon finesse. If my interpretation is correct, then PCGen needs to be adjusted, since for grappling it always uses the STR bonus, not the DEX bonus. Do you have a rules guru to decide this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Comment By: Andrew Wilson (nuance) Date: 2005-08-15 23:04 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=41667 Weapon finesse is working with the current Monk weapons. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: Martijn Verburg (karianna) Date: 2004-02-14 01:54 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=252169 It certainly can be, shifting to freqs now :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: Siegfried Frosch (siegfried1) Date: 2004-02-13 19:32 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=750257 Please forgive me opening the "bug" and adding one more comment to this tricky discussion: On Page 41 of the PHB v3.5 in the monk's class description it is stated "A monks unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells)." And I would consider a feat "Weapon finesse" an effect that improves things. Which in turn is pro applying the feat. However I am totally fine with your ruling. Yes, that'll be a house rule then. Any chances this can be converted in a FREQ to have an option added to PCGen that allows to choose the behaviour here in some distant later version? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: Martijn Verburg (karianna) Date: 2004-02-12 23:34 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=252169 Right here's the answer, deleting this bug :-) "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike." From Equipment::Weapons of the RSRD. So, yes, an unarmed strike is absolutely finesse-able. No FAQ or Sage needed for that part. They way they worded it above, it sounds just plain wrong, but keep reading... The unarmed strike is not a natural weapon. Those are both very specific game terms and one is not a subset of the other. An unarmed strike is the thing delivered by an unarmed attack. You are considered armed if you have natural weapons, but not by default with an unarmed strike unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike or are a monk. What you were asking about was grappling. The initial melee touch attack roll (the "Grab") does not specify a delivery mechanism explicitly in the rules. It is not an unarmed strike because you do not deliver damage with the touch attack roll. It is more like you are delivering the attempt to grapple. So, I would have to rule that strictly by the rules, Weapon Finesse does not apply. However, I think it's harmless to house rule that one. Now, for the grapple checks, they are definitely not finesse- able. They are not attack rolls at all, but "grapple checks". They have a very specific rule for how they are rolled and they do not include any latitude for feats in their definition. Improved Grapple explicitly grants you a +4 bonus, but Weapon Finesse says it applies "on attack rolls". A grapple check is not an attack roll. That's my take... I'd say the CS answer is unhelpful, if not wrong, but I might be reading into it too much. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: Martijn Verburg (karianna) Date: 2004-02-12 20:28 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=252169 Oh hells, another weird ruling from WoTC, To the boards this goes. K TM SB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: samuel (notmousse) Date: 2004-02-12 10:44 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=866875 According to customer service natural weapons are finesseable, but not unarmed strikes. The direct quote is below. 'Natural weapons are considered finessable weapons but unarmed attacks are not. That means that you cannot apply weapon finesse to grapple checks' Personally this doesn't make sense to me. Light weapons are all finesseable, unarmed is considered a light weapon, Furthermore unarmed is a 'natural weapon'. And monks can deal their special unarmed damage in a grapple, leading me to believe that since grappling is just another form of unarmed attack, which is natural weapon, you should be able to use your dex mod instead of strength mod when grappling. I'll let you decide K. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment By: Martijn Verburg (karianna) Date: 2004-01-25 19:31 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=252169 Here's a new task for ya ;p. See if you can scour the latest version of the SRD and RSRD and see if you can find an official ruling - K TM SB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=384722&aid=883078&group_id=25576 |