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#2630 resource output in Col1
This ticket is an attempt to combine outdoors resource output values of col1 into 1 formula
BR#2628 : ore output
BR@2629 : silver output
In many cases the formula is simple :
output = base_terrain_output + bonus_resource_value + road_bonus + rebel_bonus
apply specialist modifier
The specialist modifier can be a multiplier or an addifier depending on the resource.
according to colopedia (col1 dos v3, gog version) :
product | expert modifier
-------- | ---------
food | +2
fish | 2
ore | 2
silver | 2
timber | 2
furs | 2
tobacco | 2
sugar | 2
cotton | 2
These values need to be verified though.
If so, there are many differences in FreeCol. (An expert gives Food +3 https://sourceforge.net/p/freecol/improvement-requests/176/attachment/IMG_0028.JPG etc).
I am sure, we can find many of them. The question is how to report - many micro-bug-reports, or (which is I think better) take enough time and create a big chart.
Also, we have many types of bonuses (basic tile outcome, additional special resource bonus, rivers, roads, experts, songs, Gods Party..) We really need to know the calculation order for all of this.
Last edit: Evgeny 2014-01-03
Beware, this is an area that has already been gone over carefully. I do not doubt that there are problems, but FreeCol's current behaviour is based on actual reports of Col1. I have to suspect that Col1 versions varied here.
Well, we both have Colonization1 (GoG) ver.3.0 from 07-Feb-95. It runs great.
Manual is the same (attached). I have not found any information that MicroProse (1994) version has any differences. It is good to get Misiulo's opinion on that.
If we will get agreement about Col1 version, we can go through again. There are differences with current FreeCol. And give you the results.. after a month :) or two. I will spend time with pleasure on that. Have never played original Col1 before.
Edit: found on < http://www.colonizationfans.com/ > Colonization Buildings -> Cathedral description:
v.3.0 the newest I found info about.
Last edit: Evgeny 2014-01-03
For example, we can create a constantly editable topic in Discussion -> FreeCol.
Main part (Lone_Wolf)
- terrains _ all characteristics list from Col1.
- Difference with current FreeCol.
Below - Supplementary editable posts from other testers. We will make notes to the main editable list.
Last edit: Evgeny 2014-01-03
I am sorry, that is a long chart :)
Code for chart:
x,y: x is the amount produced by a normal colonist, y is the amount produced by an expert in that area. Production in the center square is always -1 from the normal colonist amount. Indentured servants are also typically -1. Indians show different results depending on the specialty. To this is added -1,-2 if production penalty incurred, +1,+2 if 50% of colony is rebel, and +2,+4 if 100% of colony is rebel.
x1/x2,y1/y2: are the amounts if improving terrain helps. Improving terrain by plowing helps crop production, while improving by roads helps non-crop production. Plowing any forest terrain automatically converts it to its corresponding non-forest type, and removes any special resource type that was there (but may create one for the non-forest type). Note that this is true even when there is the same resource available for the forest and non-forest type, i.e. Oasis and Mineral. (I have plowed plain scrub brush and gotten Oasis desert, and I have plowed Oasis scrub brush and gotten plain desert).
Source for table: Colonopedia and personal observation. Note that the resource chart that comes with the game is an incredible fiction. The Colonopedia is correct except that they indicate that the expert bonus for farmers and fishermen is +3 when it is really +2.
The following maximums are thus obtained for each resource production:
Food: 17 (100% rebel, expert farmer working plowed river wheat plains)
Sugar: 22 (100% rebel, expert sugar grower working plowed river sugar cane savannah)
Tobacco: 22 (100% rebel, expert tobacco grower working plowed river tobacco leaf grassland)
Cotton: 22 (100% rebel, expert cotton grower working plowed river cotton grassland)
Fur: 24 (100% rebel, expert fur trapper working roaded river beaver mixed forest)
Lumber: 32 (100% rebel, expert lumberjack working roaded river tree conifer forest)
Ore: 18 (100% rebel, riv+mineral+(Swamp or Marsh) or Hills+ore)
Silver: 12 (100% rebel, expert silver miner working roaded silver mountain)
Colonists working in buildings work as follows:
3,6 (with first level building)
6,12 (second level building)
9,18 (factory level building)
This uses the same -1,-2 decrement and +1,+2 and +2,+4 increments due
to sons of liberty membership as before. Note that this puts the
maximum for sugar, tobacco, cotton, and ore conversion at 22 (pretty
similar to the maximum of their production). But since there is no
factory level lumber mill, one lumberjack working prime timber can
feed two carpenters (maximum of 16).
An ideal colony is one on a regular plowed square with one adjacent
timber-rich square, one adjacent resource (sugar, tobacco, cotton, or
fur) square, two adjacent ore-producing squares, and one adjacent
food-rich square. This colony could have 4 colonists producing food,
2 ore miners, 1 producing a resource, 1 converting the resource, 1
lumberjack, 2 carpenters, 1 blacksmith, 1 preacher, 1 statesman, and 2
teachers or 1 teacher and a gunsmith, for a total population of 16.
All should be expert except some of the food producers (although the
one working the food-rich square should always be expert). There is no
need for a colony ever to get larger than 16.
Last edit: Evgeny 2014-01-03
found here < http://www.colonizationfans.com/Downloads.html >
Last edit: Evgeny 2014-01-03
Mike,
i feel freecol devs should decide which col1 version is to be used as base.
The col dos v3 patch can still be found online and includes a map editor and a cheat mode that makes testing a lot easier.
Those that have the original can apply that patch themselves.
The dos v3 version is also sold by GoG for USD 5,99 thus available to all for a low cost.
I suggest freecol devs decide freecol will be based on the Col1 dos v3 version.
A post in freecol forum might work, but a wiki page with subsections seems a better solution.
Does the sourceforge supplied wiki allow categories / subsections and such ?
If not, we could use the free www.wikia.com (it's based on mediawiki, same as wikipedia)
If we use wikia, 1 or more of the freecol devs should register the wiki there and we should use that as official wiki imo.
If you want an example of what can be achieved with wikia, check http://masterofmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Master_of_Magic_Wiki
It has a mount of useful information and is completely done by volunteers.
How to test :
For now, we should focus on terrain resources only.
The data i found indicates there are many variables and special cases.
rebel bonus, colonist skill, colony square and goods party bonus are special cases, difficulty level could be one.
(it is for the colony square i think)
We need to establish a base line.
i feel the baseline should be be :
a free colonist in a city with 0 rebel bonus, non-colony square, no goods party bonus
Testing should take place at both discoverer and viceroy difficulty to verify if diff level does have an influence.
The baseline should include these groups :
a. basic terrain
b, basic terrain with river
c, basic terrain with bonus resource
d. basic terrain with bonus respource with river
for each we need 4 cases :
no improvements
road
plowed
road + plowed
Looks like we'll need custom made Col1 maps / savegames to ease testing.
Edit :
i am aware that there already has been done a lot of work wrt resource output, but the data i already got about silver and ore from dos v3 differs a lot from what freecol uses now.
Either MPS changed lots of things in between versions, or the earlier testing was flawed.
Last edit: Lone_Wolf 2014-01-03
I am gonna create a chart-file like this, just because it is very easy to verify with Col1.
After deep verification, I am gonna start comparison with current FreeCol.
P.S. Even base outcome & movement cost might have some differences now.
P.S.2. Note "3.png". It assumes you can PLOW conifer forest for tobacco +1.
Last edit: Evgeny 2014-01-03
evgeny, there are reasons why i put up that baseline of 4x4 cases we need to verify.
We know next to nothing with 100% certainty about the fomulae Col1 uses.
To figure out those formulae so the devs can code them we need to be sure what happens and how things combine.
The only way we can avoid future changes to the formulae is by taking into account all things we can think of and verify what col1 does.
Colopedia data is a simplified version and leaves many questions.
example : lumber on conifer forest , road/river bonus is listed as +2
what bonus is given for a conifer forest square with a river AND a road ?
river is a terrain feature, road is a player improvement, chances are those are treated differently by Col1.We don't know and need to find out!
Last edit: Lone_Wolf 2014-01-04
Mike pope has given me higher access to the sourceforge wiki and started a new thread on freecol-dev mailing list about the questions i raised,
see http://sourceforge.net/p/freecol/mailman/message/31808024/
I've been thinking about this more and feel the 4x4 schema above is a LOT of work and may be the wrong approach.
for now let's take a pause with collecting numbers and identify which questions need answers and what data is needed to for the answer.
I'll be creating a new wiki page soon to investigate this.
The whole issue of Col1 production is now being handled on the wiki, and through PF#51. Closing.