Re: [Audacity-quality] Mute and Solo priority.

[Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...>]

On 29 July 2012 23:05, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
>
> | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
> | Sun, 29 Jul 2012 21:51:03 +0100
> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Mute and Solo priority.
>> On 29 July 2012 21:20, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
>> >
>> > | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
>> > | Sun, 29 Jul 2012 15:18:49 +0100
>> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Mute and Solo priority.
>> >> On 28 July 2012 23:51, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
>> >> > | Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:57:43 +0100
>> >> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Mute and Solo priority.
>> >> >> When the "Solo Button" button behaviour is set to "Standard" in
>> >> >> Preferences > Tracks.
>> >> >> Solo has priority over Mute for playback, but Mute has priority over
>> >> >> Solo for export.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This means that if one or more  tracks have both mute and solo buttons
>> >> >> depressed, the exported audio will be different to what is heard when
>> >> >> playing back in Audacity.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As a user wrote recently on the forum:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Consider this situation from the perspective of a blind user. They
>> >> >> have just created a mix within Audacity. They have confirmed it is
>> >> >> what they want by listening to it on playback in Audacity. They now
>> >> >> instruct Audacity to export the project to, let's say, a WAV file.
>> >> >> They play that WAV file back - and it isn't what they just listened
>> >> >> to!"
>> >> >> http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?p=187345#p187345
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It can be useful to be able to solo more than one track at a time, but
>> >> >> as the above example shows there is a serious downside if the priority
>> >> >> of solo and mute buttons are different for playback and export.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It would probably be better if either:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1) Solo has priority for both playback and recording. If the solo
>> >> >> button on one or more tracks is depressed, the soloed tracks will play
>> >> >> and the other tracks will not. The soloed tracks will export and the
>> >> >> other tracks will not.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2) Mute has priority for both playback and recording. If the Mute
>> >> >> button on one or more tracks is depressed, the muted tracks will not
>> >> >> play regardless of whether the Solo button is pressed or not. Muted
>> >> >> tracks will not be exported. This is the default behaviour in Ardour
>> >> >> and is the usual behaviour on hardware mixers.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> My preference would be for option 2 (which is how Export currently
>> >> >> works). When a track is muted, it is muted.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks, Steve.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm surprised this is the usual behaviour on hardware mixers as
>> >> > I recall mixer behaviour was cited as the reason for having solo
>> >> > priority as default behaviour (rather than a default of the soloed
>> >> > track being the only one that is heard).
>> >> >
>> >> > The Manual claims that the current default behaviour "will suit
>> >> > those used to mixing desks and other professional audio software".
>> >>
>> >> The ability to "solo" more than one track at a time is the usual
>> >> behaviour on hardware mixers and will be familiar to "those used to
>> >> mixing desks and other professional audio software". We do not want to
>> >> lose this behaviour as it can be useful in some situations.
>> >>
>> >> Where the hardware analogy falls down is with "export". Hardware
>> >> mixers don't have "export", but will often have a variety of different
>> >> mixes (main out, monitor mix, stereo bus, sub-group mix,
>> >> headphone/control room mix, Aux send, and so on). The
>> >> headphone/control room mix is probably the closest analogy to the
>> >> Audacity "Play" mix. On hardware mixers the headphone/control room mix
>> >> can usually be switched to monitor any individual channel or any of
>> >> the available mixes.
>> >>
>> >> The problem in Audacity is that there is in effect two different mixes
>> >> - the "Play" mix (which the user hears) and the "Export" mix, There is
>> >> no way for the user to hear the Export mix. I agree with the original
>> >> poster that this is a design flaw.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > I agree that 2) would possibly be more intuitive to those who are
>> >> > not familiar with hardware mixers and who can't find the "Simple"
>> >> > preference for Solo Button behaviour. Is it more intuitive for
>> >> > those who are familiar? Is it too late to change?
>> >>
>> >> I don't think that it ever too late to fix a problem, and in my
>> >> opinion this is a problem that should be fixed.
>> >>
>> >> People that are new to Audacity but familiar with hardware mixers or
>> >> professional audio software should have no problem with Mute taking
>> >> priority over Solo.
>> >>
>> >> The possible problem is for those that are familiar with the Audacity
>> >> "Standard" behaviour. For this group it may be surprising if they can
>> >> no longer solo a muted track (though all they would need to do is to
>> >> un-mute it). It would possibly be less of a shock if tracks can only
>> >> be soloed or muted but not both as the behaviour is then unambiguous.
>> >
>> > When we discussed all this at the time, I don't recall "mute taking
>> > priority" was even considered.  It was apparently clear that we
>> > needed to solo multiple tracks but also needed a way to press mute
>> > on a track without it being audibly silenced.
>>
>> I'm missing part of the picture here.
>> Could you describe an example work-flow where it is necessary to mute
>> a track without audibly silencing it.
>
> No. I did not want the current "Standard" solo button behaviour
> to be default, though I and most people can live with it OK.
>
> Maybe you can find some elucidation here:
> http://tinyurl.com/c4euefo ?
>
>
>> >> >> An additional possibility for option 2 could be that pressing the Solo
>> >> >> button on a muted track automatically releases the mute button on that
>> >> >> track and/or pressing the mute button on a soloed track automatically
>> >> >> releases the Solo button. In other words, a track may be either muted,
>> >> >> soloed or not muted or soloed, but not muted and soloed.
>> >> >
>> >> > I am guessing that will be unpopular with power users. Before
>> >> > the Solo Button preference was brought in, they used to
>> >> > complain about "losing" the Mute button state.
>> >>
>> >> I can see that, but it is not 'only' because tracks can only be in one state.
>> >>
>> >> Looking at Audacity 1.3.4, when the solo button is released on a
>> >> soloed track, all muted tracks become un-muted. The mute button state
>> >> is lost for all tracks.
>> >>
>> >> The behaviour that I'm suggesting is that "Standard" behaviour is that
>> >> if a track is muted and the solo button is pressed, that track becomes
>> >> soloed and the mute button on that track (only) is released. If a
>> >> track is set to to Solo and the Mute button is pressed, that track
>> >> becomes muted and the Solo button is released. The mute/solo status of
>> >> other tracks would not be changed.  Is there a down side to this
>> >> proposed behaviour?
>> >
>> > Conceptually I prefer that to "mute takes priority". But the same
>> > objection is there - if people have workflows where they need to
>> > "flag" tracks as muted while soloing them, they are not going to
>> > be happy.
>>
>> As above, I can't envisage this work-flow, could you give an example?
>>
>>
>> >I would hate to have a fourth Solo button preference.
>>
>> I agree it would be better to avoid that if possible.
>>
>> >
>> > What about the OP's subsequent suggestion that in effect we
>> > only mute the export if the Audacity track is greyed (audibly
>> > muted)?  Then we don't need to change the Mute/Solo button
>> > behaviour.
>>
>> So would that be, Solo takes precedence over mute for both playback
>> and recording?
>
> I'll confess I am unclear what you mean by "and recording".


Sorry - a typing error. I meant "playback and exporting".


> A
> track created by pressing Record is neither selected (I feel that
> is incorrect) nor has Mute or Solo depressed.
>
> Anyway the suggestion was that button interactions don't change.
> When considering what tracks to exclude from export, we exclude
> those that have greyed waveform and disregard Mute button state
> in that decision.

So that IS "Solo takes priority over mute for both playback and exporting?

Steve

>
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>
>> > I have to say though that I have no problem with the current
>> > scheme where the tracks where the Mute button is depressed
>> > are not exported. There may be cases where you actually want
>> > to export a different subset of the mix to what you hear, and a
>> > button may be a more intuitive way of setting this.
>> >
>> > And until now, I think the cases of confusion we have had with
>> > muted exports would still have occurred if we had instead not
>> > exported greyed tracks.
>> >
>> >
>> >> >> I think that the important issue is that the behaviour should be the
>> >> >> same for both playback and export.
>> >> >
>> >> > I feel that muting tracks not intended for export is a good deal more
>> >> > intuitive than soloing them (even if behaviour between playback and
>> >> > export differs).
>> >> >
>> >> > The blind user should hear when they select the tracks "Solo on"
>> >> > and/or "Mute on", so have a positive indication if mute is on.
>> >>
>> >> Does that rely on selecting each track in turn to check the Mute button
>> >> status?
>> >
>> > It relies on moving the focus to each track.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Gale
>> >
>> >
>> >> For sighted users it may not be obvious that there are tracks
>> >> simultaneously muted and soloed if the number of tracks is greater
>> >> than will fit on screen.
>
>
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