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From: <jue...@we...> - 2003-12-11 09:42:41
|
I'm inclined to agree, but this implies a further issue: To be able to =
compile all the tests and the framework sources in the first place, we =
need to ship all the libraries that we depend on. We're talking about =
additional 1.6 MB of libs here (excluding Xerces and Clover). The test =
sources amount to 1.3 MB themselves (400 KB zipped). So in total, around =
2 MB increase in distribution size: from 12.1 MB (M3 + JPetStore) to =
14.1 MB. If we agree to accept that, I'll be happy to include the tests =
in the upcoming release.
=20
Juergen
=20
________________________________
Von: spr...@li... im Auftrag =
von Rod Johnson
Gesendet: Do 11.12.2003 10:06
An: spr...@li...
Betreff: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
I agree with Rong. I think we should include tests in M4.
Regards,
Rod
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ou, Rong" <Ro...@sa...>
To: <spr...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:43 PM
Subject: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
Hi all,
First time poster here. I've had Rod's book for a while, just haven't
finished reading it yet. :) Which I plan to do during the holidays.
I was a bit disappointed when I pulled down the m3 release and didn't =
find
any tests in it. Since we are all doing XP, agile, TDD now, isn't it =
high
time that tests are released together with production code? It would be =
so
much easier for newcomers to come up to speed with the framework ("Tests =
are
documentation") and contribute new tests and patches (dealing with cvs =
is a
lot of hassle from behind firewalls).
Any thoughts?
Rong
-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials.
Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for =
IBM's
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From: <jue...@we...> - 2003-12-11 10:32:17
|
I think that the difference isn't big enough to warrant separate =
releases just because of the tests. A more convincing option would be to =
ship a distribution that contains everything (even including tests) but =
just the minimum set of libraries (i.e. aop-alliance and =
commons-logging). No working samples, no compiling of framework sources.
=20
That would result in a 7.5 MB "light edition", as opposed to >14 MB for =
the "full edition" with all libraries. I guess that many users would =
consider the "light edition" sufficient in that case: After all, it =
includes everything as sources plus pre-built framework libraries - just =
without the option to build samples, framework, or tests!
=20
We could pursue that after M4 if we feel the need to, starting to offer =
two such distributions as of RC1. For the time being, a single 14 MB =
distribution should be fine, IMO.
=20
Juergen
=20
________________________________
Von: spr...@li... im Auftrag =
von Alef Arendsen
Gesendet: Do 11.12.2003 10:47
An: spr...@li...
Betreff: RE: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
I think it's good to have the tests distributed as well, but maybe we
could have two releases? One including the tests, one not including the
tests (or does this result in too much work)...
-----Original Message-----
From: spr...@li...
[mailto:spr...@li...] On Behalf
Of j=FCrgen h=F6ller [werk3AT]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:41 AM
To: spr...@li...
Subject: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
I'm inclined to agree, but this implies a further issue: To be able to
compile all the tests and the framework sources in the first place, we
need to ship all the libraries that we depend on. We're talking about
additional 1.6 MB of libs here (excluding Xerces and Clover). The test
sources amount to 1.3 MB themselves (400 KB zipped). So in total, around
2 MB increase in distribution size: from 12.1 MB (M3 + JPetStore) to
14.1 MB. If we agree to accept that, I'll be happy to include the tests
in the upcoming release.
Juergen
________________________________
Von: spr...@li... im Auftrag
von Rod Johnson
Gesendet: Do 11.12.2003 10:06
An: spr...@li...
Betreff: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
I agree with Rong. I think we should include tests in M4.
Regards,
Rod
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ou, Rong" <Ro...@sa...>
To: <spr...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:43 PM
Subject: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
Hi all,
First time poster here. I've had Rod's book for a while, just haven't
finished reading it yet. :) Which I plan to do during the holidays.
I was a bit disappointed when I pulled down the m3 release and didn't
find any tests in it. Since we are all doing XP, agile, TDD now, isn't
it high time that tests are released together with production code? It
would be so much easier for newcomers to come up to speed with the
framework ("Tests are
documentation") and contribute new tests and patches (dealing with cvs
is a lot of hassle from behind firewalls).
Any thoughts?
Rong
-------------------------------------------------------
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_______________________________________________
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Spr...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer
-------------------------------------------------------
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Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for
IBM's Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys
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-------------------------------------------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------
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Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for =
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|
From: Colin S. <col...@ex...> - 2003-12-11 14:31:36
|
This is the solution I like. Somebody who is already using Spring and
just wants to do a point upgrade or have an install image for use
somewhere could pull down the light version. Somebody who really wants
to learn Spring and get going with it would pull down the heavy version...
jürgen höller [werk3AT] wrote:
>I think that the difference isn't big enough to warrant separate releases just because of the tests. A more convincing option would be to ship a distribution that contains everything (even including tests) but just the minimum set of libraries (i.e. aop-alliance and commons-logging). No working samples, no compiling of framework sources.
>
>That would result in a 7.5 MB "light edition", as opposed to >14 MB for the "full edition" with all libraries. I guess that many users would consider the "light edition" sufficient in that case: After all, it includes everything as sources plus pre-built framework libraries - just without the option to build samples, framework, or tests!
>
>We could pursue that after M4 if we feel the need to, starting to offer two such distributions as of RC1. For the time being, a single 14 MB distribution should be fine, IMO.
>
>Juergen
>
>
>________________________________
>
>Von: spr...@li... im Auftrag von Alef Arendsen
>Gesendet: Do 11.12.2003 10:47
>An: spr...@li...
>Betreff: RE: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
>
>
>
>I think it's good to have the tests distributed as well, but maybe we
>could have two releases? One including the tests, one not including the
>tests (or does this result in too much work)...
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: spr...@li...
>[mailto:spr...@li...] On Behalf
>Of jürgen höller [werk3AT]
>Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:41 AM
>To: spr...@li...
>Subject: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
>
>
>I'm inclined to agree, but this implies a further issue: To be able to
>compile all the tests and the framework sources in the first place, we
>need to ship all the libraries that we depend on. We're talking about
>additional 1.6 MB of libs here (excluding Xerces and Clover). The test
>sources amount to 1.3 MB themselves (400 KB zipped). So in total, around
>2 MB increase in distribution size: from 12.1 MB (M3 + JPetStore) to
>14.1 MB. If we agree to accept that, I'll be happy to include the tests
>in the upcoming release.
>
>Juergen
>
>
>________________________________
>
>Von: spr...@li... im Auftrag
>von Rod Johnson
>Gesendet: Do 11.12.2003 10:06
>An: spr...@li...
>Betreff: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
>
>
>
>I agree with Rong. I think we should include tests in M4.
>
>Regards,
>Rod
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ou, Rong" <Ro...@sa...>
>To: <spr...@li...>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:43 PM
>Subject: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>First time poster here. I've had Rod's book for a while, just haven't
>finished reading it yet. :) Which I plan to do during the holidays.
>
>I was a bit disappointed when I pulled down the m3 release and didn't
>find any tests in it. Since we are all doing XP, agile, TDD now, isn't
>it high time that tests are released together with production code? It
>would be so much easier for newcomers to come up to speed with the
>framework ("Tests are
>documentation") and contribute new tests and patches (dealing with cvs
>is a lot of hassle from behind firewalls).
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Rong
>
>
|
|
From: <jue...@we...> - 2003-12-11 10:42:05
|
Darren, =20 I'm not sure if the samples add any complexity, but I think you're right = about the test tree. So I suggest to refine the "light edition" from my = last mail to a 7.1 MB one with pre-built binaries, docs, framework = sources, sample sources, but without tests and just the minimum set of = third-party libraries. =20 I think that it's very helpful to include framework sources in your IDE, = to get better argument naming when overriding methods, quick navigation = to sources of framework base classes, etc. I do that all the time with = the JDK and Hibernate; so do my werk3AT colleagues. And after all, Sun = is shipping the JDK with sources included - you just need to download = the docs separately there. Hibernate and Log4J ship with out-of-the-box = sources too. =20 Furthermore, I believe that the samples are important particularly for = "just want to use it" people. After all, polished examples are a good = companion to proper framework documentation, easing the entry into the = framework rather than making it more complex, IMO. =20 Juergen =20 ________________________________ Von: spr...@li... im Auftrag = von Rod Johnson Gesendet: Do 11.12.2003 11:28 An: spr...@li... Betreff: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests? I think we need a binary release also when we release 1.0 final. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Davison" <dda...@kg...> To: <spr...@li...> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests? > > Or the second release could just be the binaries. But I'm inclined > > to agree with Mike that people don't much care about size of > > download. Does anyone really download Spring over a modem? So I > > would just stick with the single 14Mb download: it's a modest = increase. > > I don't think it's so much the file size as the perceived complexity. Opening > the zip and seeing an enormous test tree along side the main source = tree and > all the samples could make you think "boy, I don't have time to learn = all this > stuff". > > A smaller download with just the vitals and some good doco can be a = big aide > in promoting takeup among those who "just want to use it". It's = purely a > mindset thing - I'm not suggesting that the additional increase in the = zip > really does add any complexity. The argument perhaps makes a stronger case > too for a binary only file release which I'd also like to see. > > We could always give it a go and if the SF d/l stats show there's = really no > need for the cut down versions, we can stop building them. > > -- > Darren Davison > Public Key: http://www.davison.uk.net/key.jsp > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. > Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for = IBM's > Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys = admin. > Click now! = http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D1278&alloc_id=3D3371&op=3Dclick > _______________________________________________ > Springframework-developer mailing list > Spr...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer > ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for = IBM's Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys = admin. Click now! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D1278&alloc_id=3D3371&op=3Dclick _______________________________________________ Springframework-developer mailing list Spr...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer |
|
From: Janek B. <ya...@st...> - 2003-12-11 10:55:15
|
On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 05:40, j=C3=BCrgen h=C3=B6ller [werk3AT] wrote: > Darren, > =20 > I'm not sure if the samples add any complexity, but I think you're right = about the test tree. So I suggest to refine the "light edition" from my las= t mail to a 7.1 MB one with pre-built binaries, docs, framework sources, sa= mple sources, but without tests and just the minimum set of third-party lib= raries. > =20 > I think that it's very helpful to include framework sources in your IDE, = to get better argument naming when overriding methods, quick navigation to = sources of framework base classes, etc. I do that all the time with the JDK= and Hibernate; so do my werk3AT colleagues. And after all, Sun is shipping= the JDK with sources included - you just need to download the docs separat= ely there. Hibernate and Log4J ship with out-of-the-box sources too. > =20 > Furthermore, I believe that the samples are important particularly for "j= ust want to use it" people. After all, polished examples are a good compani= on to proper framework documentation, easing the entry into the framework r= ather than making it more complex, IMO. > =20 > Juergen > =20 As a new user of the framework I am finding it very useful to have the sources available within the IDE. It is often easier to search the=20 sources to establish facts about the framework than to use the external documentation. On the size issue, as a 28.8k modem user (at one location) the size of downloads (JBoss, JDKs) is an issue I normally solve by burning CD-Rs or using USB drives at another location. So an few extra megabytes won't affect me and shouldn't really be a consideration as I would guess other users in a similar situation use a similar tactic with large downloads.=20 -Janek |
|
From: Darren D. <dda...@kg...> - 2003-12-11 12:40:18
|
> Furthermore, I believe that the samples are important particularly > for "just want to use it" people. After all, polished examples are a > good companion to proper framework documentation, easing the entry > into the framework rather than making it more complex, IMO. sorry if I wasn't clear originally - I was certainly advocating that the samples *should* form a part of all release versions. Regards, -- Darren Davison Public Key: http://www.davison.uk.net/key.jsp |
|
From: Rod J. <rod...@in...> - 2003-12-11 13:14:02
|
Of course publishing the tests means we'll have to ensure they're intelligible to users. But of course that's no bad thing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Davison" <dda...@kg...> To: <spr...@li...> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests? > > > Furthermore, I believe that the samples are important particularly > > for "just want to use it" people. After all, polished examples are a > > good companion to proper framework documentation, easing the entry > > into the framework rather than making it more complex, IMO. > > sorry if I wasn't clear originally - I was certainly advocating that the > samples *should* form a part of all release versions. > > Regards, > > > -- > Darren Davison > Public Key: http://www.davison.uk.net/key.jsp > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. > Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for IBM's > Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys admin. > Click now! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1278&alloc_id=3371&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Springframework-developer mailing list > Spr...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer > |
|
From: Alef A. <al...@jt...> - 2003-12-11 09:47:28
|
I think it's good to have the tests distributed as well, but maybe we
could have two releases? One including the tests, one not including the
tests (or does this result in too much work)...
-----Original Message-----
From: spr...@li...
[mailto:spr...@li...] On Behalf
Of j=FCrgen h=F6ller [werk3AT]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:41 AM
To: spr...@li...
Subject: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
I'm inclined to agree, but this implies a further issue: To be able to
compile all the tests and the framework sources in the first place, we
need to ship all the libraries that we depend on. We're talking about
additional 1.6 MB of libs here (excluding Xerces and Clover). The test
sources amount to 1.3 MB themselves (400 KB zipped). So in total, around
2 MB increase in distribution size: from 12.1 MB (M3 + JPetStore) to
14.1 MB. If we agree to accept that, I'll be happy to include the tests
in the upcoming release.
=20
Juergen
=20
________________________________
Von: spr...@li... im Auftrag
von Rod Johnson
Gesendet: Do 11.12.2003 10:06
An: spr...@li...
Betreff: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
I agree with Rong. I think we should include tests in M4.
Regards,
Rod
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ou, Rong" <Ro...@sa...>
To: <spr...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:43 PM
Subject: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
Hi all,
First time poster here. I've had Rod's book for a while, just haven't
finished reading it yet. :) Which I plan to do during the holidays.
I was a bit disappointed when I pulled down the m3 release and didn't
find any tests in it. Since we are all doing XP, agile, TDD now, isn't
it high time that tests are released together with production code? It
would be so much easier for newcomers to come up to speed with the
framework ("Tests are
documentation") and contribute new tests and patches (dealing with cvs
is a lot of hassle from behind firewalls).
Any thoughts?
Rong
-------------------------------------------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------
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|
From: Rod J. <rod...@in...> - 2003-12-11 09:52:41
|
Or the second release could just be the binaries. But I'm inclined to agr=
ee
with Mike that people don't much care about size of download. Does anyone
really download Spring over a modem? So I would just stick with the singl=
e
14Mb download: it's a modest increase.
Rod
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Alef Arendsen" <al...@jt...>
To: <spr...@li...>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
I think it's good to have the tests distributed as well, but maybe we
could have two releases? One including the tests, one not including the
tests (or does this result in too much work)...
-----Original Message-----
From: spr...@li...
[mailto:spr...@li...] On Behalf
Of j=FCrgen h=F6ller [werk3AT]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:41 AM
To: spr...@li...
Subject: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
I'm inclined to agree, but this implies a further issue: To be able to
compile all the tests and the framework sources in the first place, we
need to ship all the libraries that we depend on. We're talking about
additional 1.6 MB of libs here (excluding Xerces and Clover). The test
sources amount to 1.3 MB themselves (400 KB zipped). So in total, around
2 MB increase in distribution size: from 12.1 MB (M3 + JPetStore) to
14.1 MB. If we agree to accept that, I'll be happy to include the tests
in the upcoming release.
Juergen
________________________________
Von: spr...@li... im Auftrag
von Rod Johnson
Gesendet: Do 11.12.2003 10:06
An: spr...@li...
Betreff: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
I agree with Rong. I think we should include tests in M4.
Regards,
Rod
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ou, Rong" <Ro...@sa...>
To: <spr...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 9:43 PM
Subject: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests?
Hi all,
First time poster here. I've had Rod's book for a while, just haven't
finished reading it yet. :) Which I plan to do during the holidays.
I was a bit disappointed when I pulled down the m3 release and didn't
find any tests in it. Since we are all doing XP, agile, TDD now, isn't
it high time that tests are released together with production code? It
would be so much easier for newcomers to come up to speed with the
framework ("Tests are
documentation") and contribute new tests and patches (dealing with cvs
is a lot of hassle from behind firewalls).
Any thoughts?
Rong
-------------------------------------------------------
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|
From: Darren D. <dda...@kg...> - 2003-12-11 10:25:43
|
> Or the second release could just be the binaries. But I'm inclined > to agree with Mike that people don't much care about size of > download. Does anyone really download Spring over a modem? So I > would just stick with the single 14Mb download: it's a modest increase. I don't think it's so much the file size as the perceived complexity. Opening the zip and seeing an enormous test tree along side the main source tree and all the samples could make you think "boy, I don't have time to learn all this stuff". A smaller download with just the vitals and some good doco can be a big aide in promoting takeup among those who "just want to use it". It's purely a mindset thing - I'm not suggesting that the additional increase in the zip really does add any complexity. The argument perhaps makes a stronger case too for a binary only file release which I'd also like to see. We could always give it a go and if the SF d/l stats show there's really no need for the cut down versions, we can stop building them. -- Darren Davison Public Key: http://www.davison.uk.net/key.jsp |
|
From: Rod J. <rod...@in...> - 2003-12-11 10:28:39
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I think we need a binary release also when we release 1.0 final. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Davison" <dda...@kg...> To: <spr...@li...> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [Springframework-developer] Releasing Tests? > > Or the second release could just be the binaries. But I'm inclined > > to agree with Mike that people don't much care about size of > > download. Does anyone really download Spring over a modem? So I > > would just stick with the single 14Mb download: it's a modest increase. > > I don't think it's so much the file size as the perceived complexity. Opening > the zip and seeing an enormous test tree along side the main source tree and > all the samples could make you think "boy, I don't have time to learn all this > stuff". > > A smaller download with just the vitals and some good doco can be a big aide > in promoting takeup among those who "just want to use it". It's purely a > mindset thing - I'm not suggesting that the additional increase in the zip > really does add any complexity. The argument perhaps makes a stronger case > too for a binary only file release which I'd also like to see. > > We could always give it a go and if the SF d/l stats show there's really no > need for the cut down versions, we can stop building them. > > -- > Darren Davison > Public Key: http://www.davison.uk.net/key.jsp > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. > Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for IBM's > Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys admin. > Click now! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1278&alloc_id=3371&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Springframework-developer mailing list > Spr...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/springframework-developer > |
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From: Darren D. <dda...@kg...> - 2003-12-11 09:59:28
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> I think it's good to have the tests distributed as well, but maybe we > could have two releases? One including the tests, one not including the > tests (or does this result in too much work)... I agree - I suggested this a while back too. My impression is that the majority of people want a usable but minimal release (with samples) and online documentation. Those who want the tests and any extra stuff can grab a different release. As we pass 1.0 final, the group wanting the former type of release will become significantly larger. There's no issue with SF's storage limits is there? - at least not judging by the amount the jboss project uses there isn't - so it should only require a change to the main build.xml to create the additional zip(s). Regards, -- Darren Davison Public Key: http://www.davison.uk.net/key.jsp |
