simspark-devel — Discussion about Spark development

[simspark-devel] New Nao models

[Sander v. D. <sgv...@gm...>]

Hey MC (and others),

At [1] you can find a screenshot of the new Nao models supplied by Aldeberan
in SimSpark. As you can see a great improvement and everything still runs
smoothly on my (nowadays) mid-range laptop. I still need to fix some small
things, like the team color switch and the uniform numbers and I am still
waiting on a reply from Aldeberan about licensing. If that's all sorted I'll
put the stuff in the repository.

Cheers,

Sander

[1] http://www.ai.rug.nl/~sgdijk/simspark.png

Re: [simspark-devel] [Sserver-three-d] Perfect positions from message ?

[Mahdi <zig...@gm...>]

Hi

  Actually, I am working on a new simulator<->monitor protocol. A real time
one. First of all, I made a list of problems that the current protocol has,
and I tried to investigate, whether this protocol can be updated to not have
the list of problems, or a new one shall be created. I want everyone comment
on the points I mention, so that the new protocol would be a refreshing one.

The problems arise in 3 different aspects
 1 - Simulator aspect
    * The simulator sends cycle data every 10 cycles, not every cycle. This
means that if the perfect information are sent to trainer, only each 10
cycles there will be such information, and only within that cycles the
information are correct.
    * The simulator sends all the physical data in scene node form. This
means that if the position of a player is going to be analyzed, The position
and orientation of all the nodes that the player is in, shall be taken in
account and at last the players position is calculated.
    * The simulator sends information only about the nodes that have been
changed in the past cycles. Although this is very useful for the current
state of simulator which the network traffic is very high, But it also makes
very difficult to cycle through simulation cycles, since to get to next or
previous cycles, the properties of all objects shall be calculated and
evaluated.

2 - Trainer aspect
    * Current set of trainer commands are very limited, and even lack some
functionality.

3 - Log aspect
    * The logfile of the simulator is actually the whole data that are sent
to the monitor, nothing more or less. This makes the logfile very huge. The
data are raw, and and even worse, they are in string representation, which
consumes even more space. In iranopen games, around 1Gb space were used in
the internet server to hold the gzipped packages of the logfiles.
    * The problem makes another negative point: The WHOLE data is in string
form. Take in account the qualification process for teams. They should send
logfiles of their teams in play with eg. the third ranking team of the
previous tournament. Someone can easily throw a game between two teams, and
only change one of the names in the logfile and send it!


  Considering these points, I thought of updating the current protocol to
satisfy a solution to the specified problems. But there was another problem:
If the new protocol shall use binary form of communication, then no more the
current logfiles can be viewed at later times. This means the history of the
3d soccer simulation, and mainly the start point at which all of it started,
will be lost and history won't remember it! Cause the newly updated protocol
won't support the features of the previous version of itself. The solution
is to create a selectable protocol framework for the simulator. When a
monitor/logplayer/trainer connects to the simulator, it shall request a
protocol version when connecting. If the monitor does not provide such a
version, then the simulator assumes it's the legacy protocol that the
monitor can read. This version numbered protocol selection also has another
benefit. A typical monitor only needs some part of a cycle's data, but a
trainer will need all of the data possible to examine and train the agent's
behaviour and skills. With providing this solution, the bandwidth and
network latency of connections to the simulator can be drastically reduced.

  Please everyone provide the MC with other problems that are in your mind,
or suggestions to make the protocol better. If anyone can help, surely is
appreciated.



On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Hedayat Vatankhah <hed...@gm...>wrote:

>  Hi Hugo,
>
> *Hugo Picado <hug...@gm...> <hug...@gm...>* wrote on ۰۹/۰۴/۱۵
> 12:14:03:
>
> Hi,
>
> Here is the patch for sensing the ball global position. It works similarly
> to the setSenseMyPos.
> To apply the patch just run *patch -p0 -i ballsensepos.diff* in top level
> directory of your SVN
> branch of the simulator.
>
> To receive the ball global position add the predicate setSenseBallPos to
> the file naoneckhead.rsg like:
>
>         (nd RestrictedVisionPerceptor
>             (setViewCones 120 120)
>             (setSenseMyPos false)
>             *(setSenseBallPos true)*
>             (setStaticSenseAxis false)
>             (addNoise true)
>             (setInterval 3)
>         )
>
> Hope it works :)
> Hedayat, if you don't mind give me some feedback please.
>
> Thanks a lot for the patch. I'm a little busy now and I didn't really ran
> it, but the patch seems to be OK. :)
> But it currently only sends the exact position of the ball, and it is
> possible to make it more generic to report the exact position of everything.
>
> But I'm wondering if we can add debugging facilities a little more
> organized (separate from the main protocol for example) and make it more
> extendable for future additions.
>
> I will (hopefully!) start a discussion about this among MC and include you.
> BTW, please don't wait for it and let me know about your opinions. :)
>
> Thanks,
> Hedayat
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Hugo.
>
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Hedayat Vatankhah <hed...@gm...>wrote:
>
>> Hi! :)
>>
>> *Hugo Picado <hug...@gm...> <hug...@gm...>* wrote on ۰۹/۰۴/۱۴
>> 09:19:56:
>>
>> Hi, thanks for the reply.
>>
>> Actually, I would like to receive both instead of one of them.
>>
>>  You can't do this currently. I think it is a useful feature too, and it
>> is easy to implement. It would be nice if you send us the patch, or I will
>> (if I don't forget it!) add it to the next version of rcssserver3d.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Hedayat
>>
>>
>> For example, I can compute my own position and I can set the predicate
>> setSenseMyPos to receive the
>> correct global position of the agent. Then I check the error between the
>> position computed and the
>> correct global position.
>>
>> I would like to do the same thing for the ball and other players to check
>> how far is the agent knowledge from
>> the correct information.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Hugo.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Hedayat Vatankhah <hed...@gm...>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> *Hugo Picado <hug...@gm...> <hug...@gm...>* wrote on
>>> ۰۹/۰۴/۱۴ 07:36:06:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Is there any way to get the perfect ball / opponents position from the
>>> message as we can do
>>> with the agent's own position (setSenseMyPos predicate) ?
>>>
>>>  Yes, you can change addNoise to false in naoneckhead.rsg.
>>>
>>> Good luck,
>>> Hedayat
>>>
>>>
>>> This could be useful for debugging.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>> Hugo.
>>>
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>>>
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Re: [simspark-devel] Some URGENT TODOs!

[Hedayat V. <hed...@ai...>]

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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Hi all,<span><br>
<br>
<style type="text/css">blockquote {color: navy !important; background-color: RGB(245,245,245) !important; padding: 0 15 10 15 !important; margin: 15 0 0 0; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid;}  blockquote blockquote {color: maroon !important; background-color: RGB(235,235,235) !important; border-left-color:maroon !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: green !important; background-color: RGB(225,225,225) !important; border-left-color:teal !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: purple !important; background-color: RGB(215,215,215) !important; border-left-color: purple !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: teal !important; background-color: RGB(205,205,205) !important; border-left-color: green !important}</style><i><b>Sander
van Dijk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sgv...@gm...">&lt;sgv...@gm...&gt;</a></b></i> wrote on ۰۹/۰۴/۱۲ 09:13:16:</span><br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:efd...@ma..."   type="cite">Hey,<br>
  <br>
  <div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Mahdi <span   dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"   href="mailto:zig...@gm...">zig...@gm...</a>&gt;</span>
wrote:<br>
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"   style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
    <br>
    <div class="gmail_quote">2009/4/10 Hedayat Vatankhah <span   dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:hed...@ai..."   target="_blank">hed...@ai...</a>&gt;</span>
    <div class="im"><br>
    <blockquote class="gmail_quote"   style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
      <div style="direction: ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
      <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Hi all,</p>
      <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">If we are going
to
change some settings for 2009, it should be done ASAP. Please share
your opinions about these matters. Also, it would be nice if you can do
this changes.</p>
      <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">These are what
might be
necessary to be done for 2009:</p>
      <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">1. Adding more
flags
around the field.</p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </div>
    <div><br>
Adding field boundry lines seems to work just good. But if we are going
to have more vision noise that the current rate (which is proposed by
Hedayat in next todo item), it seems better if there be more flags on
the two longitude lines of the field.</div>
    </div>
  </blockquote>
  <div><br>
I find that localization is very well possible with the current amount
of markers. But if only a few teams are able to get it working
competitions will be rather boring. Next week during the German Open we
will try to use restricted vision, after that we'll have a better idea
if the teams manage to cope with it I think.<br>
  </div>
  </div>
</blockquote>
Nice! But IMHO adding boundary lines as mentioned in the sserver
mailing list is not a bad idea anyway.<br>
<br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:efd...@ma..."   type="cite">
  <div class="gmail_quote">
  <div><br>
  </div>
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"   style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
    <div class="gmail_quote">
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div class="im">
    <blockquote class="gmail_quote"   style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
      <div style="direction: ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
      <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"></p>
      <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">2. Increasing the
vision noise. The current noise parameters are tuned for a much bigger
field that what we have now, and in the current field the vision noise
is probably near zero.</p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </div>
    </div>
  </blockquote>
  <div><br>
I agree to this, the error currently is in the order of milimeters I
believe. Perhaps a reasonable way to define the parameters is to look
at the view angle and resolution of the real NAO and set the error
variance such that it corresponds to 1 (or 2) pixels off. Or see if any
team has any real data on measurement errors (I'll see if I can contact
some humanoid teams).<br>
  </div>
  </div>
</blockquote>
Great, thanks. <br>
<br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:efd...@ma..."   type="cite">
  <div class="gmail_quote">
  <div><br>
  </div>
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"   style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
    <div class="gmail_quote">
    <div class="im">
    <blockquote class="gmail_quote"   style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
      <div style="direction: ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
      <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">3. Adding noise
to
agent's joint actuators and/or perceptors.</p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </div>
    </div>
  </blockquote>
  <div><br>
I think this isnj't too hard to implement and we can see how that works
out. However, I feel that we have to keep in mind that the simulation
league is more about higher level control (in my opinion). It is good
to make it more realistic, but 3D teams shouldn't have to spend too
much time on problems that other leagues are already working on.<br>
  </div>
  </div>
</blockquote>
Maybe we should discuss about it with TC. Since the current trend in 3D
is to be more realistic as we go. And if I remember correctly, this is
the decision of TC. BTW, I don't know if it is too late to introduce
noise in joints.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:efd...@ma..."   type="cite">
  <div class="gmail_quote">
  <div>�<br>
  </div>
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"   style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
    <div class="gmail_quote">
    <div class="im">
    <blockquote class="gmail_quote"   style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
      <div style="direction: ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
      <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"></p>
      <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Did I miss
anything?</p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </div>
    </div>
  </blockquote>
  <div><br>
The automatic referee could use a lookover I think, like balls hitting
the goal post being registered as goals or clear goals being registered
as goal kicks. And perhaps we can explicitely implement some of the
keeper rules that are now enforced by the human referee (eg. handling
the ball outside the penalty area, lieing in front of the goal longer
than so many seconds).<br>
  </div>
  </div>
</blockquote>
Yes, you're right. The current referee is not dependable! A good point
to consider.<br>
<br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:efd...@ma..."   type="cite">
  <div class="gmail_quote">
  <div><br>
  </div>
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"   style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
    <div class="gmail_quote">
    <div class="im">
    <blockquote class="gmail_quote"   style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
      <div style="direction: ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
      <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"><br>
      </p>
      <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Finally, would
you
please provide a summary of your current status with regard to simspark
development? </p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    </div>
  </blockquote>
  </div>
  <br>
I am afraid I will be quite busy too. I will put the meshes we received
from Aldebaran into the simulator (as soon as they have resolved
license issues), other than that I can't guarantee I will have much
time unfortunately..<br>
  <br>
</blockquote>
Thank you anyway :)<br>
<br>
Good luck,<br>
Hedayat<br>
<br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:efd...@ma..."   type="cite">Cheers,<br>
Sander<br>
</blockquote>
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Re: [simspark-devel] Some URGENT TODOs!

[Sander v. D. <sgv...@gm...>]

Hey,

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Mahdi <zig...@gm...> wrote:

>
>
> 2009/4/10 Hedayat Vatankhah <hed...@ai...>
>
>>  Hi all,
>>
>> If we are going to change some settings for 2009, it should be done ASAP.
>> Please share your opinions about these matters. Also, it would be nice if
>> you can do this changes.
>>
>> These are what might be necessary to be done for 2009:
>>
>> 1. Adding more flags around the field.
>>
>
> Adding field boundry lines seems to work just good. But if we are going to
> have more vision noise that the current rate (which is proposed by Hedayat
> in next todo item), it seems better if there be more flags on the two
> longitude lines of the field.
>

I find that localization is very well possible with the current amount of
markers. But if only a few teams are able to get it working competitions
will be rather boring. Next week during the German Open we will try to use
restricted vision, after that we'll have a better idea if the teams manage
to cope with it I think.


>  2. Increasing the vision noise. The current noise parameters are tuned
>> for a much bigger field that what we have now, and in the current field the
>> vision noise is probably near zero.
>>
>
I agree to this, the error currently is in the order of milimeters I
believe. Perhaps a reasonable way to define the parameters is to look at the
view angle and resolution of the real NAO and set the error variance such
that it corresponds to 1 (or 2) pixels off. Or see if any team has any real
data on measurement errors (I'll see if I can contact some humanoid teams).

3. Adding noise to agent's joint actuators and/or perceptors.
>>
>
I think this isnj't too hard to implement and we can see how that works out.
However, I feel that we have to keep in mind that the simulation league is
more about higher level control (in my opinion). It is good to make it more
realistic, but 3D teams shouldn't have to spend too much time on problems
that other leagues are already working on.


>  Did I miss anything?
>>
>
The automatic referee could use a lookover I think, like balls hitting the
goal post being registered as goals or clear goals being registered as goal
kicks. And perhaps we can explicitely implement some of the keeper rules
that are now enforced by the human referee (eg. handling the ball outside
the penalty area, lieing in front of the goal longer than so many seconds).


>>  Finally, would you please provide a summary of your current status with
>> regard to simspark development?
>>
>
>
I am afraid I will be quite busy too. I will put the meshes we received from
Aldebaran into the simulator (as soon as they have resolved license issues),
other than that I can't guarantee I will have much time unfortunately..

Cheers,
Sander

Re: [simspark-devel] Some URGENT TODOs!

[Mahdi <zig...@gm...>]

2009/4/10 Hedayat Vatankhah <hed...@ai...>

>  Hi all,
>
> If we are going to change some settings for 2009, it should be done ASAP.
> Please share your opinions about these matters. Also, it would be nice if
> you can do this changes.
>
> These are what might be necessary to be done for 2009:
>
> 1. Adding more flags around the field.
>

Adding field boundry lines seems to work just good. But if we are going to
have more vision noise that the current rate (which is proposed by Hedayat
in next todo item), it seems better if there be more flags on the two
longitude lines of the field.


> 2. Increasing the vision noise. The current noise parameters are tuned for
> a much bigger field that what we have now, and in the current field the
> vision noise is probably near zero.
>
> 3. Adding noise to agent's joint actuators and/or perceptors.
>
>
>  Did I miss anything?
>
>
>  Finally, would you please provide a summary of your current status with
> regard to simspark development?
>

I am working on a simple binary protocol for simulator<->monitor
connections, thus enabling more details to be sent to monitor/trainer and
vice versa. A full briefing will be made after completion of this task.


> Personally, I was too busy in the past months and so I didn't do much
> (except that the current simspark and rcssserver3d can be compiled on
> Windows completely). But hopefully I'll be able to do some work on Player
> integration, so that it might be a part of what we can show in RoboCup 2009
> as one of the features of the server for 2010. If we have enough new
> features, we might be able to present the new features in RoboCup 2009. (It
> seems that we can't have any new features to be used in 2009, since there is
> not much time till the competition.).
>
>
>  Thanks a lot,
>
> Hedayat
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by:
> High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment.
> Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now!
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>
>

[simspark-devel] Some URGENT TODOs!

[Hedayat V. <hed...@ai...>]

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html style="direction: ltr;">
<head>
</head>
<body style="direction: ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Hi all,</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">If we are going to
change some settings for 2009, it should be done ASAP. Please share
your opinions about these matters. Also, it would be nice if you can do
this changes.</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">These are what might be
necessary to be done for 2009:</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">1. Adding more flags
around the field.</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">2. Increasing the
vision noise. The current noise parameters are tuned for a much bigger
field that what we have now, and in the current field the vision noise
is probably near zero.</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">3. Adding noise to
agent's joint actuators and/or perceptors.</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Did I miss anything?</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Finally, would you
please provide a summary of your current status with regard to simspark
development? </p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Personally, I was too
busy in the past months and so I didn't do much (except that the
current simspark and rcssserver3d can be compiled on Windows
completely). But hopefully I'll be able to do some work on Player
integration, so that it might be a part of what we can show in RoboCup
2009 as one of the features of the server for 2010. If we have enough
new features, we might be able to present the new features in RoboCup
2009. (It seems that we can't have any new features to be used in 2009,
since there is not much time till the competition.).</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Thanks a lot,</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Hedayat</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"><br>
</p>
</body>
</html>

Re: [simspark-devel] (no subject)

[Hedayat V. <hed...@ai...>]

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html style="direction: ltr;">
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body style="direction: ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Hi,<br>
That's OK. <br>
<br>
Have fun,<br>
Hedayat<br>
<span><br>
<style type="text/css">blockquote {color: navy !important; background-color: RGB(245,245,245) !important; padding: 0 15 10 15 !important; margin: 15 0 0 0; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid;}  blockquote blockquote {color: maroon !important; background-color: RGB(235,235,235) !important; border-left-color:maroon !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: green !important; background-color: RGB(225,225,225) !important; border-left-color:teal !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: purple !important; background-color: RGB(215,215,215) !important; border-left-color: purple !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: teal !important; background-color: RGB(205,205,205) !important; border-left-color: green !important}</style><i><b>ali
valehi <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:aj...@ya...">&lt;aj...@ya...&gt;</a></b></i> wrote on ۰۹/۰۴/۱۰ 02:17:27:</span><br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:702...@we..." type="cite">
  <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
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      <tr>
        <td   style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;"   valign="top">
        <div>Hi i  have error when I run simspark in my terminal:</div>
        <div>ERROR: skipping remaining time </div>
        </td>
      </tr>
    </tbody>
  </table>
  <br>
  <hr size="1"> <a moz-do-not-send="true"   href="http://sg.rd.yahoo.com/aa/mail/domainchoice/mail/signature/*http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/">
Get your preferred Email name! </a> <br>
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com.
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[simspark-devel] (no subject)

[ali v. <aj...@ya...>]

Hi i  have error when I run simspark in my terminal:
ERROR: skipping remaining time 


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Re: [simspark-devel] Nao models

[Hedayat V. <hed...@ai...>]

Hi,


/*Oliver Obst <oli...@cs...>*/ wrote on 03/17/2009 02:09:18 AM:
> On 17/03/2009, at 1:51 AM, Sander van Dijk wrote:
>
>   
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I have received the Nao models from Aldebaran. I will try and get  
>> them into the simulator, which shouldn't be too hard since they are  
>> in .obj files. The only thing is, that they mentioned they don't  
>> want to have it so that people can just change them and give them  
>> three ears or a mexican hat. At the least this will probably mean we  
>> will have to supply them in a seperate package under another  
>> license. I will discuss this further with them.
>>     
>
> I'd suggest that this just means that for the competition (and showing  
> off the Nao model as part of the competition), i.e. the organisers  
> take care that the simulator on a competition is using the "official"  
> model... so no special license would be needed. But it's good to ask  
> them, I agree.
>   
I hope that they don't want to have a 'not-modifiable'  license (and if
they are going to have one, it is safer that they provide it themselves),
but if so, I'm suspected that we could host such files in sf.net (and
certainly it would be impossible to provide such models in distributions
like Fedora which doesn't permit non-free packages.).

> While I understand that they don't want to have Nao's with 3 ears or a  
> Mexican hat (though ...), it also means teams cannot use individual  
> uniforms or something like that (?).
>
>   
>> They also sent the latest documentation with more elaborate specs  
>> (mass, motors, sizes, etc.), but with instructions not to spread it  
>> too easily, since it's still in beta. Am I correct that this mailing  
>> list is open to the public?
>>     
>
> this is correct, anyone can subscribe.
> "not spread too easily" could mean we implement the specs, but make no  
> big fuss out of it. In this case, I probably would probably only ask  
> if it's OK to publish them once they are final.
>
> cheers
> Oliver
>   

Thanks  a lot,
Hedayat
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/simspark-devel
>   

Re: [simspark-devel] Nao models

[Oliver O. <oli...@cs...>]

On 17/03/2009, at 1:51 AM, Sander van Dijk wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I have received the Nao models from Aldebaran. I will try and get  
> them into the simulator, which shouldn't be too hard since they are  
> in .obj files. The only thing is, that they mentioned they don't  
> want to have it so that people can just change them and give them  
> three ears or a mexican hat. At the least this will probably mean we  
> will have to supply them in a seperate package under another  
> license. I will discuss this further with them.

I'd suggest that this just means that for the competition (and showing  
off the Nao model as part of the competition), i.e. the organisers  
take care that the simulator on a competition is using the "official"  
model... so no special license would be needed. But it's good to ask  
them, I agree.

While I understand that they don't want to have Nao's with 3 ears or a  
Mexican hat (though ...), it also means teams cannot use individual  
uniforms or something like that (?).

> They also sent the latest documentation with more elaborate specs  
> (mass, motors, sizes, etc.), but with instructions not to spread it  
> too easily, since it's still in beta. Am I correct that this mailing  
> list is open to the public?

this is correct, anyone can subscribe.
"not spread too easily" could mean we implement the specs, but make no  
big fuss out of it. In this case, I probably would probably only ask  
if it's OK to publish them once they are final.

cheers
Oliver

Re: [simspark-devel] CMake and Autotools support

[Sander v. D. <sgv...@gm...>]

Hey,

I will try setting the minimum version to 2.4 and see what happens. If it
won't work it shouldn't be too big a problem to install a newer version (or
compile it, as on these systems we don't have root access). If it's too much
work to make it work under 2.4 I agree it's not worth it, was just wondering
if it would be a small fix to have it working out of the box with older
versions as in Ubuntu 8.04.

Thanks!

Sander

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Hedayat Vatankhah <hed...@ai...>wrote:

>  Hi,
>
> *Sander van Dijk <sgv...@gm...> <sgv...@gm...>* wrote on
> 03/16/2009 05:59:10 PM:
>
> Hey all,
>
> We encountered a small issue with using cmake. As defined in
> CMakeLists.txt, the minimum required version is 2.6. However, on some
> systems we have 2.4, which is the version used in Ubuntu 8.04. Since this is
> the latest Long Term Support version I can imagine more people stick to this
> version. I am not familir with cmake at all besides the use for simspark,
> but is there some functionality that we rely on that is not in version 2.4.
> Or can we perhaps just set the required version to 2.4 so it can be used on
> more systems?
>
> I'm not sure about it, but CMake had a rapid growth recently and many
> changes, so I guess that the current files won't work with 2.4 versions.
> But, you can try changing the min version to 2.4 to see what happens. But,
> again, I think it will fail with a high probability. And I think it will
> need many dirty changes to make it compatible with 2.4 (but I'm not sure
> again!!).
> On the other hand, if I remember correctly, cmake.org provides binary
> packages for Linux, so it might be easy to get a binary version of cmake 2.6
> and run under Ubuntu 8.04.
> Finally, compiling cmake should not be problematic and it won't need extra
> requirements I think.
> What's your opinion?
>
> Thanks a lot,
> Hedayat
>
>
> Cheers,
> Sander
>
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Hedayat Vatankhah <hed...@ai...>wrote:
>
>>  Hi again!
>>
>> I've almost finished adding CMake support to our projects in SVN. It needs
>> testing on systems with different configurations, but the needed changes
>> would not be much. So, it seems that removing autotools support will not
>> hurt the project itself.
>>
>>
>>  First, from now on please consider CMake as the primary build system,
>> and use it instead of auto-tools yourselves, and report any problems you
>> have (and possibly fix them).
>>
>>
>>  Second, sooner or later we are going to drop auto-tools support. I think
>> there are 2 reasonable options (you can add new ones though): 1. removing
>> autotools support now (before releasing a new version) or 2. maintaining
>> autotools support until the next release of the simulator and dropping the
>> support after that.
>>
>> I'm still not sure if the second option have any advantages. Please let us
>> know what you think about it.
>>
>>
>>  Finally, it would be nice if you can test our CMake build system on Mac
>> OSX and Windows,� and help us to improve our CMake support so the we can use
>> cmake for all platforms and not using any other build systems for that
>> purpose (like VS project files).
>>
>> Also, CPack (a part of cmake suit) supports generating installers for
>> those systems (on Windows, it support NSIS installer). It'll enable us to
>> create binary installers easily. I'll try to improve our support for those
>> systems, but it needs testing specially on Mac OSX as I'm not much familiar
>> with it and I don't have access to one of those. (It seems that CPack
>> supports creating RPMs and DEBs too, but I've not investigated� them yet.)
>>
>>
>>  Thanks for your support,
>>
>> Hedayat
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by:
>> SourcForge Community
>> SourceForge wants to tell your story.
>> http://p..sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword<http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Simspark Generic Physical MAS Simulator
>> simspark-devel mailing list
>> sim...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/simspark-devel
>>
>>
>

Re: [simspark-devel] CMake and Autotools support

[Hedayat V. <hed...@ai...>]

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html style="direction: ltr;">
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body style="direction: ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<span></span>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Hi,<br>
</p>
<span><br>
<style type="text/css">blockquote {color: navy !important; background-color: RGB(245,245,245) !important; padding: 0 15 10 15 !important; margin: 15 0 0 0; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid;}  blockquote blockquote {color: maroon !important; background-color: RGB(235,235,235) !important; border-left-color:maroon !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: green !important; background-color: RGB(225,225,225) !important; border-left-color:teal !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: purple !important; background-color: RGB(215,215,215) !important; border-left-color: purple !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: teal !important; background-color: RGB(205,205,205) !important; border-left-color: green !important}</style><i><b>Sander
van Dijk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"   href="mailto:sgv...@gm...">&lt;sgv...@gm...&gt;</a></b></i>
wrote on 03/16/2009
05:59:10 PM:</span><br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:efd...@ma..."   type="cite">Hey all,<br>
  <br>
We encountered a small issue with using cmake. As defined in
CMakeLists.txt, the minimum required version is 2.6. However, on some
systems we have 2.4, which is the version used in Ubuntu 8.04. Since
this is the latest Long Term Support version I can imagine more people
stick to this version. I am not familir with cmake at all besides the
use for simspark, but is there some functionality that we rely on that
is not in version 2.4. Or can we perhaps just set the required version
to 2.4 so it can be used on more systems?<br>
</blockquote>
I'm not sure about it, but CMake had a rapid growth recently and many
changes, so I guess that the current files won't work with 2.4
versions. But, you can try changing the min version to 2.4 to see what
happens. But, again, I think it will fail with a high probability. And
I think it will need many dirty changes to make it compatible with 2.4
(but I'm not sure again!!).<br>
On the other hand, if I remember correctly, cmake.org provides binary
packages for Linux, so it might be easy to get a binary version of
cmake 2.6 and run under Ubuntu 8.04. <br>
Finally, compiling cmake should not be problematic and it won't need
extra requirements I think.<br>
What's your opinion?<br>
<br>
Thanks a lot,<br>
Hedayat<br>
<br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:efd...@ma..."   type="cite"> <br>
Cheers,<br>
Sander<br>
  <br>
  <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Hedayat
Vatankhah <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"   href="mailto:hed...@ai...">hed...@ai...</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"   style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
    <div style="direction: ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Hi again!</p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">I've almost
finished
adding CMake support to our projects in SVN. It needs testing on
systems with different configurations, but the needed changes would not
be much. So, it seems that removing autotools support will not hurt the
project itself. </p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"><br>
    </p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">First, from now on
please consider CMake as the primary build system, and use it instead
of auto-tools yourselves, and report any problems you have (and
possibly fix them). </p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"><br>
    </p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Second, sooner or
later
we are going to drop auto-tools support. I think there are 2 reasonable
options (you can add new ones though): 1. removing autotools support
now (before releasing a new version) or 2. maintaining autotools
support until the next release of the simulator and dropping the
support after that. </p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">I'm still not sure
if
the second option have any advantages. Please let us know what you
think about it.</p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"><br>
    </p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Finally, it would
be
nice if you can test our CMake build system on Mac OSX and Windows,�
and help us to improve our CMake support so the we can use cmake for
all platforms and not using any other build systems for that purpose
(like VS project files).</p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Also, CPack (a part
of
cmake suit) supports generating installers for those systems (on
Windows, it support NSIS installer). It'll enable us to create binary
installers easily. I'll try to improve our support for those systems,
but it needs testing specially on Mac OSX as I'm not much familiar with
it and I don't have access to one of those. (It seems that CPack
supports creating RPMs and DEBs too, but I've not investigated� them
yet.)<br>
    </p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"><br>
    </p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Thanks for your
support,</p>
    <p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Hedayat<br>
    </p>
    </div>
    <br>
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This SF.net email is sponsored by:<br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
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simspark-devel mailing list<br>
    <a moz-do-not-send="true"   href="mailto:sim...@li...">sim...@li...</a><br>
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    <br>
  </blockquote>
  </div>
  <br>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

[simspark-devel] Nao models

[Sander v. D. <sgv...@gm...>]

Hey all,

I have received the Nao models from Aldebaran. I will try and get them into
the simulator, which shouldn't be too hard since they are in .obj files. The
only thing is, that they mentioned they don't want to have it so that people
can just change them and give them three ears or a mexican hat. At the least
this will probably mean we will have to supply them in a seperate package
under another license. I will discuss this further with them.

They also sent the latest documentation with more elaborate specs (mass,
motors, sizes, etc.), but with instructions not to spread it too easily,
since it's still in beta. Am I correct that this mailing list is open to the
public?

Cheers,
Sander

Re: [simspark-devel] CMake and Autotools support

[Sander v. D. <sgv...@gm...>]

Hey all,

We encountered a small issue with using cmake. As defined in CMakeLists.txt,
the minimum required version is 2.6. However, on some systems we have 2.4,
which is the version used in Ubuntu 8.04. Since this is the latest Long Term
Support version I can imagine more people stick to this version. I am not
familir with cmake at all besides the use for simspark, but is there some
functionality that we rely on that is not in version 2.4. Or can we perhaps
just set the required version to 2.4 so it can be used on more systems?

Cheers,
Sander

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Hedayat Vatankhah <hed...@ai...>wrote:

>  Hi again!
>
> I've almost finished adding CMake support to our projects in SVN. It needs
> testing on systems with different configurations, but the needed changes
> would not be much. So, it seems that removing autotools support will not
> hurt the project itself.
>
>
>  First, from now on please consider CMake as the primary build system, and
> use it instead of auto-tools yourselves, and report any problems you have
> (and possibly fix them).
>
>
>  Second, sooner or later we are going to drop auto-tools support. I think
> there are 2 reasonable options (you can add new ones though): 1. removing
> autotools support now (before releasing a new version) or 2. maintaining
> autotools support until the next release of the simulator and dropping the
> support after that.
>
> I'm still not sure if the second option have any advantages. Please let us
> know what you think about it.
>
>
>  Finally, it would be nice if you can test our CMake build system on Mac
> OSX and Windows,  and help us to improve our CMake support so the we can use
> cmake for all platforms and not using any other build systems for that
> purpose (like VS project files).
>
> Also, CPack (a part of cmake suit) supports generating installers for those
> systems (on Windows, it support NSIS installer). It'll enable us to create
> binary installers easily. I'll try to improve our support for those systems,
> but it needs testing specially on Mac OSX as I'm not much familiar with it
> and I don't have access to one of those. (It seems that CPack supports
> creating RPMs and DEBs too, but I've not investigated  them yet.)
>
>
>  Thanks for your support,
>
> Hedayat
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by:
> SourcForge Community
> SourceForge wants to tell your story.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword
> _______________________________________________
> Simspark Generic Physical MAS Simulator
> simspark-devel mailing list
> sim...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/simspark-devel
>
>

Re: [simspark-devel] OSX support and autotools

[Marian B. <mar...@gm...>]

Hi Takenori
Thank you for your support in Mac OS X. If you have a little bit leisure
time, please rewrite part Installation on Mac OS X[1] on Simspark Wiki (like
Installation on Linux[2]). I think it's help many people, who have this
operating system. 

Thank you
Best Regards

Marian Buchta

[1] http://simspark.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Installation_on_Mac_OS_X 
[2] http://simspark.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Installation_on_Linux 
 

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database 3936 (20090313) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

Re: [simspark-devel] CMake and Autotools support

[Hedayat V. <hed...@ai...>]

Hi,

/*evn1984 <ev...@12...>*/ wrote on ۰۹/۰۳/۱۴ 06:41:31:
> hi Hedayat
>     i'm sorry for not tell you clearly,i truely want to build satic 
> libraries on linux.for spark,i have changed CMakeLists.txt (mainly 
> change SHARED to STATIC),then i do cmake ../make ,it's ok.but for 
> rcsserver3d,i also do the previouse work ,and change the FINDXXX.cmake 
> in linker,it linked the static libraries which were built in 
> spark.(include libspark.a libsalt.a libzeitgeist.a liboxygen.a 
> libkerosin.a librcssnet3D.a).and then i compile rcsserver3d 
> ,when compile soccermonitor it present error,i check it and add 
> ${RCSSNET3D_INCLUDE_DIR} in soccermonitor/CMakeLists.txt 's line for 
> include_directories .it passed.
> but when compile rcssagent, it present error again but for different 
> reasons,for example:
> libzeitgeist.a   xxxx.cpp    undefined reference to "salt::path::xxx()" 
> it seems that libzeitgeist.a need to add some libraries,could you give 
> me some advise.thx
Yes, you should add salt to the rcssagent's linked libraries list. The 
same error may happen again, just add other libraries too (e.g. 
rcssnet3D). (look at the error to find out which library is needed.)

Good luck,
Hedayat

>
>
> 在2009-03-14 03:46:53，"Hedayat Vatankhah" <hed...@ai...> 写道：
>
>     Hi,
>
>     Buildint static libraries on Linux is not supported. If you build
>     simspark on Windows, you'll automatically get static libraries.
>     But you can't build rcssserver3d on Windows currently. And I think
>     support for static libraries on Windows will be dropped soon too.
>     You can try building static libraries but you'll get undefined
>     symbol errors in rcssserver3d. However, if you really like, you
>     can try building static libraries but you'll need to add all of
>     the libraries linked to simspark to rcssserver3d.
>
>     For building static libraries on Linux, just have a look at
>     spark/CMakeLists.txt, you can find how it is enabled on Windows.
>
>
>     Good luck,
>
>     Hedayat
>
>
>     /*evn1984 <ev...@12...>*/ wrote on 03/13/2009 06:34:53 PM:
>>
>>     hi Hedayat
>>
>>      i was planning to compile the release server3d(mainly in
>>     rcsserver3d and spark) to a static version,but i have found there
>>     it is difficult to realize.do you have a static version of the
>>     server3d ,or could you give me a sample.
>>
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     �������䣬 �й��һ������ʼ������� <http://www.yeah.net/> 
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 网易邮箱，中国第一大电子邮件服务商 <http://www.yeah.net> 

Re: [simspark-devel] CMake and Autotools support

[evn1984 <ev...@12...>]

hi Hedayat
    i'm sorry for not tell you clearly,i truely want to build satic libraries on linux.for spark,i have changed CMakeLists.txt (mainly change SHARED to STATIC),then i do cmake ../make ,it's ok.but for rcsserver3d,i also do the previouse work ,and change the FINDXXX.cmake in linker,it linked the static libraries which were built in spark.(include libspark.a libsalt.a libzeitgeist.a liboxygen.a libkerosin.a librcssnet3D.a).and then i compile rcsserver3d ,when compile soccermonitor it present error,i check it and add ${RCSSNET3D_INCLUDE_DIR} in soccermonitor/CMakeLists.txt 's line for include_directories .it passed.
but when compile rcssagent, it present error again but for different reasons,for example:
libzeitgeist.a   xxxx.cpp    undefined reference to "salt::path::xxx()" 
it seems that libzeitgeist.a need to add some libraries,could you give me some advise.thx



在2009-03-14 03:46:53，"Hedayat Vatankhah" <hed...@ai...> 写道：


Hi,

Buildint static libraries on Linux is not supported. If you build simspark on Windows, you'll automatically get static libraries. But you can't build rcssserver3d on Windows currently. And I think support for static libraries on Windows will be dropped soon too. You can try building static libraries but you'll get undefined symbol errors in rcssserver3d. However, if you really like, you can try building static libraries but you'll need to add all of the libraries linked to simspark to rcssserver3d. 

For building static libraries on Linux, just have a look at spark/CMakeLists.txt, you can find how it is enabled on Windows.




Good luck,

Hedayat



evn1984 <ev...@12...> wrote on 03/13/2009 06:34:53 PM:


hi Hedayat

 i was planning to compile the release server3d(mainly in rcsserver3d and spark) to a static version,but i have found there it is difficult to realize.do you have a static version of the server3d ,or could you give me a sample.




�������䣬�й��һ������ʼ�������

[simspark-devel] Windows support for simspark

[Hedayat V. <hed...@ai...>]

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html style="direction: ltr;">
<head>
</head>
<body style="direction: ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Hi all,</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">You can now build
simspark on Windows using CMake. Marian did most of the work; thanks. :)</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Currently, it is not
possible to create shared libraries (DLL files) in Windows, since it
needs modification in sources (symbols should be exported explicitly).
So, currently it'll build static libraries.</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Have fun,</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt;">Hedayat<br>
</p>
</body>
</html>

Re: [simspark-devel] Nao model

[Jie Ma <ji...@co...>]

Hi Feng,

> However, "the unrealistic results" are not just because of the models.
> And I think it is largely caused by the current simulator.

True; that's why MC members have been working hard to improve our
simulator.  But on the other hand, when a more powerful simulator is
established (with a more powerful physics engine) in the near future,
physical models such as mass distributions, servo motor models will play
even a more important role than today.

Cheers,
Jie

> Hi,
>  
> I totally agree with you that the physical models are much more 
> important than how a robot looks like.
>  
> However, "the unrealistic results" are not just because of the models. 
> And I think it is largely caused by the current simulator. Such 
> as, unrealistic servo motor models, the control system via servo speed, 
> ODE can not simulate elastic joint, friction   force of the soccer 
> environment and the rigid bodies (robot and ball), noise models, etc.
>  
> 04:56:16 2009-03-06 Jie Ma:
> 
>     Hi All,
>      From a research perspective physical models are much more important 
>     than how a robot look like -- even it may be too late to use them in 
>     this years' competition.  We've examined the current physical models 
>     under the biped locomotion problem, but the current models leaded to 
>     very unrealistic results compared with the published work based on the 
>     real NAOs.  So it would be extremely useful if Aldeberan can help us to 
>     establish more realistic physical models.
>     Regards,
>     Jie
>     Sander van Dijk wrote:
>      > Hello all,
>      > 
>      > We have contact with the people from Aldeberan, they will supply us with 
>      > meshes for the graphical model. In the simulator this model is seperate 
>      > from the physical model, so changes in the looks have no effect on the 
>      > performance.
>      > 
>      > Peter and I have also asked them for some details for the physical model 
>      > (mass distributions, sensor noise, etc.). It may be too late to push 
>      > them into the simulator for this year, since they will change the 
>      > performance and teams may need a lot of time to addept their behaviors 
>      > to them, but it will help to make the model more realistic later on.
>      > 
>      > Cheers,
>      > Sander
>      > 
>      > On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Daniel Polani <d.p...@he... 
>      > <mailto:d.p...@he...>> wrote:
>      > 
>      >     Hi,
>      > 
>      >     Aldebaran seemed quite concerned with the appearance of the robot, in
>      >     fact more so than on the technical specs. Question to the MC: will a
>      >     detailed modeling of the appearance affect simulation performance?
>      > 
>      >     A second issue is the following: we need to be careful that the
>      >     requirements of the simulation league are not necessarily dictated by
>      >     the exact technical specifications where this is not yet relevant. Of
>      >     course, in the course of years we want to converge to model the actual
>      >     Nao, but we need to be careful that our scientific goals are dictated
>      >     by what we want and are able to do this year in terms of scientific
>      >     challenge.
>      > 
>      >     - Daniel
>      > 
>      >     Sahar Asadi writes:
>      >      > Hi,
>      >      >
>      >      > In Suzhou, I talked with one of the guys from Aldebaran and he
>      >     gave me his
>      >      > contact info. He was positive and said they can provide us more
>      >     details for
>      >      > improving our model. I wanted to link Feng Xue to him but
>      >     meanwhile I became
>      >      > so busy and I forgot. I will send you the contact information. I
>      >     really
>      >      > apologize for forgetting this issue.
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      > Best,
>      >      > Sahar
>      >      >
>      >      > On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Peter Stone <ps...@cs...
>      >     <mailto:ps...@cs...>> wrote:
>      >      >
>      >      > >
>      >      > > Hi all,
>      >      > >
>      >      > > I'll email my contact at Aldebaran to ask how they would like to
>      >      > > proceed, and will report back.
>      >      > >
>      >      > > I'll try to set it up so that there can be direct contact between
>      >      > > Aldebaran and the MC.
>      >      > >
>      >      > > Best,
>      >      > >         Peter
>      >      > >
>      >      > >
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > > On 05/03/2009, at 5:11 AM, Sander van Dijk wrote:
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > > > Hello MC, OC, TC, executive and trustee,
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > > There is an issue that we have to resolve before the
>      >     competitions in
>      >      > > > > Graz: the use of the Nao model in the 3D simulation league.
>      >     As you
>      >      > > > > probably know, in Suzhou there was some controversy about this,
>      >      > > > > since the people from Aldeberan were surprised to see the model
>      >      > > > > without them being notified. In my contact with them at
>      >     that time
>      >      > > > > they seemed quite willing to let us use it and to supply
>      >     details to
>      >      > > > > possibly make the model more realistic, but I think it is still
>      >      > > > > necessary to get some sort of formal agreement. We don't
>      >     want to
>      >      > > > > have a clash again in Graz.
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > > At which level should this be done? At least when the
>      >     agreement is
>      >      > > > > there, I think it's best that the MC discusses with them
>      >     about the
>      >      > > > > details?
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > > I agree it's an important issue, and if I remember correctly,
>      >     Joschka
>      >      > > > tried to contact them not too long ago, but didn't get a reply (I
>      >      > > > don't know the details. I'm pretty sure it wasn't about
>      >     getting an
>      >      > > > agreement, but about technical issues because Aldebaran was
>      >     apparently
>      >      > > > interested in contributing to improving the model).
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > > An agreement is a separate issue, I'm not sure how formal it
>      >     needs to
>      >      > > > be though. An email from Aldebaran would probably be enough
>      >     for now -
>      >      > > > probably not too difficult to get, I would hope.
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > > I know Daniel was part of the discussion last year, so I've
>      >     cc'ed him
>      >      > > > and Joschka too.
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > > cheers
>      >      > > > Oliver
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > > --
>      >      > > > Oliver Obst                     form follows function (Louis
>      >     Sullivan).
>      >      > > > Fon: +61 2 9325 3278                            
>      >     http://oliver.obst.eu/
>      >      > > > Autonomous Systems Lab  CSIRO ICT Centre  
>      >     http://www.ict.csiro.au/asl/
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > >
>      >      > >
>      >      > >
>      >      > Hi,<br><br>In Suzhou, I talked with one of the guys from
>      >     Aldebaran and
>      >      > he gave me his contact info. He was positive and said they can
>      >     provide
>      >      > us more details for improving our model. I wanted to link Feng Xue to
>      >      > him but meanwhile I became so busy and I forgot. I will send you the
>      >      > contact information. I really apologize for forgetting this
>      >     issue.<br>
>      >      > <br><br>Best,<br><font color="#888888">Sahar</font><br><br><div
>      >     class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Peter Stone
>      >     <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:ps...@cs...
>      >     <mailto:ps...@cs...>">ps...@cs...
>      >     <mailto:ps...@cs...></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
>      >      > <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
>      >     rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
>      >      > Hi all,<br>
>      >      > <br>
>      >      > I&#39;ll email my contact at Aldebaran to ask how they would like
>      >     to<br>
>      >      > proceed, and will report back.<br>
>      >      > <br>
>      >      > I&#39;ll try to set it up so that there can be direct contact
>      >     between<br>
>      >      > Aldebaran and the MC.<br>
>      >      > <br>
>      >      > Best,<br>
>      >      > <font color="#888888">        Peter<br>
>      >      > </font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
>      >      > <br>
>      >      > &gt;<br>
>      >      > &gt; On 05/03/2009, at 5:11 AM, Sander van Dijk wrote:<br>
>      >      > &gt;<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; Hello MC, OC, TC, executive and trustee,<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt;<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; There is an issue that we have to resolve before the
>      >     competitions in<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; Graz: the use of the Nao model in the 3D simulation
>      >     league. As you<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; probably know, in Suzhou there was some controversy
>      >     about this,<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; since the people from Aldeberan were surprised to see
>      >     the model<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; without them being notified. In my contact with them at
>      >     that time<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; they seemed quite willing to let us use it and to
>      >     supply details to<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; possibly make the model more realistic, but I think it
>      >     is still<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; necessary to get some sort of formal agreement. We
>      >     don&#39;t want to<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; have a clash again in Graz.<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt;<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; At which level should this be done? At least when the
>      >     agreement is<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; there, I think it&#39;s best that the MC discusses with
>      >     them about the<br>
>      >      > &gt; &gt; details?<br>
>      >      > &gt;<br>
>      >      > &gt; I agree it&#39;s an important issue, and if I remember
>      >     correctly, Joschka<br>
>      >      > &gt; tried to contact them not too long ago, but didn&#39;t get a
>      >     reply (I<br>
>      >      > &gt; don&#39;t know the details. I&#39;m pretty sure it
>      >     wasn&#39;t about getting an<br>
>      >      > &gt; agreement, but about technical issues because Aldebaran was
>      >     apparently<br>
>      >      > &gt; interested in contributing to improving the model).<br>
>      >      > &gt;<br>
>      >      > &gt; An agreement is a separate issue, I&#39;m not sure how
>      >     formal it needs to<br>
>      >      > &gt; be though. An email from Aldebaran would probably be enough
>      >     for now -<br>
>      >      > &gt; probably not too difficult to get, I would hope.<br>
>      >      > &gt;<br>
>      >      > &gt; I know Daniel was part of the discussion last year, so
>      >     I&#39;ve cc&#39;ed him<br>
>      >      > &gt; and Joschka too.<br>
>      >      > &gt;<br>
>      >      > &gt; cheers<br>
>      >      > &gt; Oliver<br>
>      >      > &gt;<br>
>      >      > &gt; --<br>
>      >      > &gt; Oliver Obst                     form follows function (Louis
>      >     Sullivan).<br>
>      >      > &gt; Fon: +61 2 9325 3278                             <a
>      >     href="http://oliver.obst.eu/"
>      >     target="_blank">http://oliver.obst.eu/</a><br>
>      >      > &gt; Autonomous Systems Lab  CSIRO ICT Centre   <a
>      >     href="http://www.ict.csiro.au/asl/"
>      >     target="_blank">http://www.ict.csiro.au/asl/</a><br>
>      >      > &gt;<br>
>      >      > &gt;<br>
>      >      > <br>
>      >      > </div></div></blockquote></div><br>
>      > 
>      > 
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Open Source Business Conference (OSBC), March 24-25, 2009, San Francisco, CA
>     -OSBC tackles the biggest issue in open source: Open Sourcing the Enterprise
>     -Strategies to boost innovation and cut costs with open source participation
>     -Receive a $600 discount off the registration fee with the source code: SFAD
>     http://p.sf.net/sfu/XcvMzF8H
>     _______________________________________________
>     Simspark Generic Physical MAS Simulator
>     simspark-devel mailing list
>     sim...@li...
>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/simspark-devel
> 
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Best Regards,
> Feng Xue
> 2009-03-06
>  

Re: [simspark-devel] Nao model

[Feng X. <hen...@ma...>]

Hi,

I totally agree with you that the physical models are much more important than how a robot looks like.

However, "the unrealistic results" are not just because of the models. And I think it is largely caused by the current simulator. Such as, unrealistic servo motor models, the control system via servo speed, ODE can not simulate elastic joint, friction   force of the soccer environment and the rigid bodies (robot and ball), noise models, etc.

04:56:16 2009-03-06 Jie Ma:
Hi All,
 From a research perspective physical models are much more important 
than how a robot look like -- even it may be too late to use them in 
this years' competition.  We've examined the current physical models 
under the biped locomotion problem, but the current models leaded to 
very unrealistic results compared with the published work based on the 
real NAOs.  So it would be extremely useful if Aldeberan can help us to 
establish more realistic physical models.
Regards,
Jie






Best Regards,
Feng Xue
2009-03-06
 

Re: [simspark-devel] Nao model

[Feng X. <hen...@ma...>]

Hi,

I totally agree with you that the physical models are much more important than how a robot looks like.

However, "the unrealistic results" are not just because of the models. And I think it is largely caused by the current simulator. Such as, unrealistic servo motor models, the control system via servo speed, ODE can not simulate elastic joint, friction   force of the soccer environment and the rigid bodies (robot and ball), noise models, etc.

04:56:16 2009-03-06 Jie Ma:
Hi All,
 From a research perspective physical models are much more important 
than how a robot look like -- even it may be too late to use them in 
this years' competition.  We've examined the current physical models 
under the biped locomotion problem, but the current models leaded to 
very unrealistic results compared with the published work based on the 
real NAOs.  So it would be extremely useful if Aldeberan can help us to 
establish more realistic physical models.
Regards,
Jie
Sander van Dijk wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> We have contact with the people from Aldeberan, they will supply us with 
> meshes for the graphical model. In the simulator this model is seperate 
> from the physical model, so changes in the looks have no effect on the 
> performance.
> 
> Peter and I have also asked them for some details for the physical model 
> (mass distributions, sensor noise, etc.). It may be too late to push 
> them into the simulator for this year, since they will change the 
> performance and teams may need a lot of time to addept their behaviors 
> to them, but it will help to make the model more realistic later on.
> 
> Cheers,
> Sander
> 
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Daniel Polani <d.p...@he... 
> <mailto:d.p...@he...>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi,
> 
>     Aldebaran seemed quite concerned with the appearance of the robot, in
>     fact more so than on the technical specs. Question to the MC: will a
>     detailed modeling of the appearance affect simulation performance?
> 
>     A second issue is the following: we need to be careful that the
>     requirements of the simulation league are not necessarily dictated by
>     the exact technical specifications where this is not yet relevant. Of
>     course, in the course of years we want to converge to model the actual
>     Nao, but we need to be careful that our scientific goals are dictated
>     by what we want and are able to do this year in terms of scientific
>     challenge.
> 
>     - Daniel
> 
>     Sahar Asadi writes:
>      > Hi,
>      >
>      > In Suzhou, I talked with one of the guys from Aldebaran and he
>     gave me his
>      > contact info. He was positive and said they can provide us more
>     details for
>      > improving our model. I wanted to link Feng Xue to him but
>     meanwhile I became
>      > so busy and I forgot. I will send you the contact information. I
>     really
>      > apologize for forgetting this issue.
>      >
>      >
>      > Best,
>      > Sahar
>      >
>      > On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Peter Stone <ps...@cs...
>     <mailto:ps...@cs...>> wrote:
>      >
>      > >
>      > > Hi all,
>      > >
>      > > I'll email my contact at Aldebaran to ask how they would like to
>      > > proceed, and will report back.
>      > >
>      > > I'll try to set it up so that there can be direct contact between
>      > > Aldebaran and the MC.
>      > >
>      > > Best,
>      > >         Peter
>      > >
>      > >
>      > > >
>      > > > On 05/03/2009, at 5:11 AM, Sander van Dijk wrote:
>      > > >
>      > > > > Hello MC, OC, TC, executive and trustee,
>      > > > >
>      > > > > There is an issue that we have to resolve before the
>     competitions in
>      > > > > Graz: the use of the Nao model in the 3D simulation league.
>     As you
>      > > > > probably know, in Suzhou there was some controversy about this,
>      > > > > since the people from Aldeberan were surprised to see the model
>      > > > > without them being notified. In my contact with them at
>     that time
>      > > > > they seemed quite willing to let us use it and to supply
>     details to
>      > > > > possibly make the model more realistic, but I think it is still
>      > > > > necessary to get some sort of formal agreement. We don't
>     want to
>      > > > > have a clash again in Graz.
>      > > > >
>      > > > > At which level should this be done? At least when the
>     agreement is
>      > > > > there, I think it's best that the MC discusses with them
>     about the
>      > > > > details?
>      > > >
>      > > > I agree it's an important issue, and if I remember correctly,
>     Joschka
>      > > > tried to contact them not too long ago, but didn't get a reply (I
>      > > > don't know the details. I'm pretty sure it wasn't about
>     getting an
>      > > > agreement, but about technical issues because Aldebaran was
>     apparently
>      > > > interested in contributing to improving the model).
>      > > >
>      > > > An agreement is a separate issue, I'm not sure how formal it
>     needs to
>      > > > be though. An email from Aldebaran would probably be enough
>     for now -
>      > > > probably not too difficult to get, I would hope.
>      > > >
>      > > > I know Daniel was part of the discussion last year, so I've
>     cc'ed him
>      > > > and Joschka too.
>      > > >
>      > > > cheers
>      > > > Oliver
>      > > >
>      > > > --
>      > > > Oliver Obst                     form follows function (Louis
>     Sullivan).
>      > > > Fon: +61 2 9325 3278                            
>     http://oliver.obst.eu/
>      > > > Autonomous Systems Lab  CSIRO ICT Centre  
>     http://www.ict.csiro.au/asl/
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > >
>      > >
>      > Hi,<br><br>In Suzhou, I talked with one of the guys from
>     Aldebaran and
>      > he gave me his contact info. He was positive and said they can
>     provide
>      > us more details for improving our model. I wanted to link Feng Xue to
>      > him but meanwhile I became so busy and I forgot. I will send you the
>      > contact information. I really apologize for forgetting this
>     issue.<br>
>      > <br><br>Best,<br><font color="#888888">Sahar</font><br><br><div
>     class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Peter Stone
>     <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:ps...@cs...
>     <mailto:ps...@cs...>">ps...@cs...
>     <mailto:ps...@cs...></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
>      > <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
>     rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
>      > Hi all,<br>
>      > <br>
>      > I&#39;ll email my contact at Aldebaran to ask how they would like
>     to<br>
>      > proceed, and will report back.<br>
>      > <br>
>      > I&#39;ll try to set it up so that there can be direct contact
>     between<br>
>      > Aldebaran and the MC.<br>
>      > <br>
>      > Best,<br>
>      > <font color="#888888">        Peter<br>
>      > </font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
>      > <br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; On 05/03/2009, at 5:11 AM, Sander van Dijk wrote:<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; Hello MC, OC, TC, executive and trustee,<br>
>      > &gt; &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; There is an issue that we have to resolve before the
>     competitions in<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; Graz: the use of the Nao model in the 3D simulation
>     league. As you<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; probably know, in Suzhou there was some controversy
>     about this,<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; since the people from Aldeberan were surprised to see
>     the model<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; without them being notified. In my contact with them at
>     that time<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; they seemed quite willing to let us use it and to
>     supply details to<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; possibly make the model more realistic, but I think it
>     is still<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; necessary to get some sort of formal agreement. We
>     don&#39;t want to<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; have a clash again in Graz.<br>
>      > &gt; &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; At which level should this be done? At least when the
>     agreement is<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; there, I think it&#39;s best that the MC discusses with
>     them about the<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; details?<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; I agree it&#39;s an important issue, and if I remember
>     correctly, Joschka<br>
>      > &gt; tried to contact them not too long ago, but didn&#39;t get a
>     reply (I<br>
>      > &gt; don&#39;t know the details. I&#39;m pretty sure it
>     wasn&#39;t about getting an<br>
>      > &gt; agreement, but about technical issues because Aldebaran was
>     apparently<br>
>      > &gt; interested in contributing to improving the model).<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; An agreement is a separate issue, I&#39;m not sure how
>     formal it needs to<br>
>      > &gt; be though. An email from Aldebaran would probably be enough
>     for now -<br>
>      > &gt; probably not too difficult to get, I would hope.<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; I know Daniel was part of the discussion last year, so
>     I&#39;ve cc&#39;ed him<br>
>      > &gt; and Joschka too.<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; cheers<br>
>      > &gt; Oliver<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; --<br>
>      > &gt; Oliver Obst                     form follows function (Louis
>     Sullivan).<br>
>      > &gt; Fon: +61 2 9325 3278                             <a
>     href="http://oliver.obst.eu/"
>     target="_blank">http://oliver.obst.eu/</a><br>
>      > &gt; Autonomous Systems Lab  CSIRO ICT Centre   <a
>     href="http://www.ict.csiro.au/asl/"
>     target="_blank">http://www.ict.csiro.au/asl/</a><br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > <br>
>      > </div></div></blockquote></div><br>
> 
> 
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Best Regards,
Feng Xue
2009-03-06
 

Re: [simspark-devel] OSX support and autotools

[Takenori K. <tk...@gm...>]

2009/3/6 Takenori KUBO <tk...@gm...>:

> I always give up to use autotools again or  I don't fix cmake support.
I already give up to use autotools again or  I don't fix cmake support.
...orz

Regards
Takenori

Re: [simspark-devel] OSX support and autotools

[Takenori K. <tk...@gm...>]

Hi Hedayat,

2009/3/6 Hedayat Vatankhah <hed...@ai...>:
> Does the user need to supply the installation paths of libraries (such as
> SDL) to cmake like what you did? (It seems that it was not needed before as
> stated in [1], so we should be able to do so with CMake too).

Probably, yes.
It depends installation paths of libraries.


> Yes, it is not that elaborate. But:
> 1. In Linux, we have not received any reports about compiling problems till
> now. So, it seems that it covers most common cases and its usable. If we
> found any problems, we will fix it. I think there is no need for autotools
> support here.

I was surprised, when I saw "error: boost/shared_ptr.hpp: No such file
or directory".


> And autotools support is removed now. So, please accept CMake as our build
> system :)

I accepted cmake support from the beginning.
I always give up to use autotools again or  I don't fix cmake support.
# Because, cmake is easier than english :)

Regards,
Takenori KUBO

Re: [simspark-devel] Nao model

[Jie Ma <ji...@co...>]

Hi All,

 From a research perspective physical models are much more important 
than how a robot look like -- even it may be too late to use them in 
this years' competition.  We've examined the current physical models 
under the biped locomotion problem, but the current models leaded to 
very unrealistic results compared with the published work based on the 
real NAOs.  So it would be extremely useful if Aldeberan can help us to 
establish more realistic physical models.

Regards,
Jie

Sander van Dijk wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> We have contact with the people from Aldeberan, they will supply us with 
> meshes for the graphical model. In the simulator this model is seperate 
> from the physical model, so changes in the looks have no effect on the 
> performance.
> 
> Peter and I have also asked them for some details for the physical model 
> (mass distributions, sensor noise, etc.). It may be too late to push 
> them into the simulator for this year, since they will change the 
> performance and teams may need a lot of time to addept their behaviors 
> to them, but it will help to make the model more realistic later on.
> 
> Cheers,
> Sander
> 
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Daniel Polani <d.p...@he... 
> <mailto:d.p...@he...>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi,
> 
>     Aldebaran seemed quite concerned with the appearance of the robot, in
>     fact more so than on the technical specs. Question to the MC: will a
>     detailed modeling of the appearance affect simulation performance?
> 
>     A second issue is the following: we need to be careful that the
>     requirements of the simulation league are not necessarily dictated by
>     the exact technical specifications where this is not yet relevant. Of
>     course, in the course of years we want to converge to model the actual
>     Nao, but we need to be careful that our scientific goals are dictated
>     by what we want and are able to do this year in terms of scientific
>     challenge.
> 
>     - Daniel
> 
>     Sahar Asadi writes:
>      > Hi,
>      >
>      > In Suzhou, I talked with one of the guys from Aldebaran and he
>     gave me his
>      > contact info. He was positive and said they can provide us more
>     details for
>      > improving our model. I wanted to link Feng Xue to him but
>     meanwhile I became
>      > so busy and I forgot. I will send you the contact information. I
>     really
>      > apologize for forgetting this issue.
>      >
>      >
>      > Best,
>      > Sahar
>      >
>      > On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Peter Stone <ps...@cs...
>     <mailto:ps...@cs...>> wrote:
>      >
>      > >
>      > > Hi all,
>      > >
>      > > I'll email my contact at Aldebaran to ask how they would like to
>      > > proceed, and will report back.
>      > >
>      > > I'll try to set it up so that there can be direct contact between
>      > > Aldebaran and the MC.
>      > >
>      > > Best,
>      > >         Peter
>      > >
>      > >
>      > > >
>      > > > On 05/03/2009, at 5:11 AM, Sander van Dijk wrote:
>      > > >
>      > > > > Hello MC, OC, TC, executive and trustee,
>      > > > >
>      > > > > There is an issue that we have to resolve before the
>     competitions in
>      > > > > Graz: the use of the Nao model in the 3D simulation league.
>     As you
>      > > > > probably know, in Suzhou there was some controversy about this,
>      > > > > since the people from Aldeberan were surprised to see the model
>      > > > > without them being notified. In my contact with them at
>     that time
>      > > > > they seemed quite willing to let us use it and to supply
>     details to
>      > > > > possibly make the model more realistic, but I think it is still
>      > > > > necessary to get some sort of formal agreement. We don't
>     want to
>      > > > > have a clash again in Graz.
>      > > > >
>      > > > > At which level should this be done? At least when the
>     agreement is
>      > > > > there, I think it's best that the MC discusses with them
>     about the
>      > > > > details?
>      > > >
>      > > > I agree it's an important issue, and if I remember correctly,
>     Joschka
>      > > > tried to contact them not too long ago, but didn't get a reply (I
>      > > > don't know the details. I'm pretty sure it wasn't about
>     getting an
>      > > > agreement, but about technical issues because Aldebaran was
>     apparently
>      > > > interested in contributing to improving the model).
>      > > >
>      > > > An agreement is a separate issue, I'm not sure how formal it
>     needs to
>      > > > be though. An email from Aldebaran would probably be enough
>     for now -
>      > > > probably not too difficult to get, I would hope.
>      > > >
>      > > > I know Daniel was part of the discussion last year, so I've
>     cc'ed him
>      > > > and Joschka too.
>      > > >
>      > > > cheers
>      > > > Oliver
>      > > >
>      > > > --
>      > > > Oliver Obst                     form follows function (Louis
>     Sullivan).
>      > > > Fon: +61 2 9325 3278                            
>     http://oliver.obst.eu/
>      > > > Autonomous Systems Lab  CSIRO ICT Centre  
>     http://www.ict.csiro.au/asl/
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > >
>      > >
>      > Hi,<br><br>In Suzhou, I talked with one of the guys from
>     Aldebaran and
>      > he gave me his contact info. He was positive and said they can
>     provide
>      > us more details for improving our model. I wanted to link Feng Xue to
>      > him but meanwhile I became so busy and I forgot. I will send you the
>      > contact information. I really apologize for forgetting this
>     issue.<br>
>      > <br><br>Best,<br><font color="#888888">Sahar</font><br><br><div
>     class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Peter Stone
>     <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:ps...@cs...
>     <mailto:ps...@cs...>">ps...@cs...
>     <mailto:ps...@cs...></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
>      > <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
>     rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
>      > Hi all,<br>
>      > <br>
>      > I&#39;ll email my contact at Aldebaran to ask how they would like
>     to<br>
>      > proceed, and will report back.<br>
>      > <br>
>      > I&#39;ll try to set it up so that there can be direct contact
>     between<br>
>      > Aldebaran and the MC.<br>
>      > <br>
>      > Best,<br>
>      > <font color="#888888">        Peter<br>
>      > </font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
>      > <br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; On 05/03/2009, at 5:11 AM, Sander van Dijk wrote:<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; Hello MC, OC, TC, executive and trustee,<br>
>      > &gt; &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; There is an issue that we have to resolve before the
>     competitions in<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; Graz: the use of the Nao model in the 3D simulation
>     league. As you<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; probably know, in Suzhou there was some controversy
>     about this,<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; since the people from Aldeberan were surprised to see
>     the model<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; without them being notified. In my contact with them at
>     that time<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; they seemed quite willing to let us use it and to
>     supply details to<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; possibly make the model more realistic, but I think it
>     is still<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; necessary to get some sort of formal agreement. We
>     don&#39;t want to<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; have a clash again in Graz.<br>
>      > &gt; &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; At which level should this be done? At least when the
>     agreement is<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; there, I think it&#39;s best that the MC discusses with
>     them about the<br>
>      > &gt; &gt; details?<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; I agree it&#39;s an important issue, and if I remember
>     correctly, Joschka<br>
>      > &gt; tried to contact them not too long ago, but didn&#39;t get a
>     reply (I<br>
>      > &gt; don&#39;t know the details. I&#39;m pretty sure it
>     wasn&#39;t about getting an<br>
>      > &gt; agreement, but about technical issues because Aldebaran was
>     apparently<br>
>      > &gt; interested in contributing to improving the model).<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; An agreement is a separate issue, I&#39;m not sure how
>     formal it needs to<br>
>      > &gt; be though. An email from Aldebaran would probably be enough
>     for now -<br>
>      > &gt; probably not too difficult to get, I would hope.<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; I know Daniel was part of the discussion last year, so
>     I&#39;ve cc&#39;ed him<br>
>      > &gt; and Joschka too.<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; cheers<br>
>      > &gt; Oliver<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt; --<br>
>      > &gt; Oliver Obst                     form follows function (Louis
>     Sullivan).<br>
>      > &gt; Fon: +61 2 9325 3278                             <a
>     href="http://oliver.obst.eu/"
>     target="_blank">http://oliver.obst.eu/</a><br>
>      > &gt; Autonomous Systems Lab  CSIRO ICT Centre   <a
>     href="http://www.ict.csiro.au/asl/"
>     target="_blank">http://www.ict.csiro.au/asl/</a><br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > &gt;<br>
>      > <br>
>      > </div></div></blockquote></div><br>
> 
> 

Re: [simspark-devel] OSX support and autotools

[Hedayat V. <hed...@ai...>]

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html style="direction: ltr;">
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body style="direction: ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<span>Hi Takenori,<br>
<br>
<style type="text/css">blockquote {color: navy !important; background-color: RGB(245,245,245) !important; padding: 0 15 10 15 !important; margin: 15 0 0 0; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid;}  blockquote blockquote {color: maroon !important; background-color: RGB(235,235,235) !important; border-left-color:maroon !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: green !important; background-color: RGB(225,225,225) !important; border-left-color:teal !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: purple !important; background-color: RGB(215,215,215) !important; border-left-color: purple !important}  blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote blockquote {color: teal !important; background-color: RGB(205,205,205) !important; border-left-color: green !important}</style><i><b>Takenori
KUBO <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tk...@gm...">&lt;tk...@gm...&gt;</a></b></i> wrote on ۰۹/۰۳/۰۵ 06:34:32:</span><br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:f87...@ma..."   type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Hi,

2009/3/5 Hedayat Vatankhah <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hed...@ai...">&lt;hed...@ai...&gt;</a>:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">That's great, thank you. It would be nice if you commit your changes. Some
cleanups are needed, but I'll do that after your commit. So, please do it.
:)
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
I commited my changes.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Thanks :)<br>
<br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:f87...@ma..."   type="cite">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Just one thing, it would be nice if you put the variables configured in
configure.cmake.sh to CMakeList.txt file so that we don't need
configure.cmake.sh. (I'm not sure if it can be completely omitted, but I
hope so!).
Anyway, if configure.cmake.sh is going to exist, please choose a name for it
which shows that it is MacOSX specific.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Configure.cmake.sh, /opt/boost-static, /Applications/rcssserver3d.app/*
These files and Pathnames are just for examples.
These are not contained my changes.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Does the user need to supply the installation paths of libraries (such
as SDL) to cmake like what you did? (It seems that it was not needed
before as stated in [1], so we should be able to do so with CMake too).<br>
<br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:f87...@ma..."   type="cite">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">I think maintaining two separate build systems is not an option for us. We
should either stick to CMake, or revert back to autotools (or use something
better!). But we should stick with CMake except if there are good reasons
for switching. Why do you like to have autotools support? What do you miss
now?
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
I feel that cmake support is not as elaborate as autotools support.
I think it is too early to remove autotools support.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Yes, it is not that elaborate. But:<br>
1. In Linux, we have not received any reports about compiling problems
till now. So, it seems that it covers most common cases and its usable.
If we found any problems, we will fix it. I think there is no need for
autotools support here.<br>
<br>
2. autotools don't support Windows. So, it doesn't have any advantages
over CMake here. (And with the help of Marian, we are going to support
Windows using CMake).<br>
<br>
3. It seems that our CMake support works in MacOSX now (by your help!).
So, it seems that we don't need autotools support here too!<br>
<br>
And autotools support is removed now. So, please accept CMake as our
build system :)<br>
<br>
<blockquote   style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); color: navy; background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); padding-left: 15px;"   cite="mid:f87...@ma..."   type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">

Regards,
Takenori KUBO
  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Thanks a lot,<br>
Hedayat<br>
<br>
[1]
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://simspark.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Installation_on_Mac_OS_X">http://simspark.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Installation_on_Mac_OS_X</a><br>
</body>
</html>