scrollkeeper-devel — Developer discussion list for ScrollKeeper

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Eric B. <e.b...@no...>]

Le Friday 18 May 2001 21:48, Norman Walsh a =E9crit :
> / Dan Mueth <d-...@uc...> was heard to say:
> | How do these deal with the lack of encoding specification for
> | DocBook/SGML docs?  It isn't obvious to me why it is a problem for XM=
L
> | docs and libxml2 but not for SGML docs with jade/SP.
>
> I'm not sure.

At KDE we assumed that <book lang=3D"ru"> induced koi-8r encoding, <book=20
lang=3D"fr"> induced iso-8859-15 encoding, etc.

(now we moved to XML and UTF-8 so this is history)

--=20
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| =C9ric Bischoff                              mailto:e.b...@no... =
|
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[<las...@Su...>]

Gregory Leblanc wrote:
> =

> On 18 May 2001 10:44:54 -0500, Dan Mueth wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 17 May 2001, L=E1szl=F3 Kov=E1cs wrote:
> >
> > > 1. The SGML parser is not perfect, there are DocBook tags it doesnt=
 know
> > > about. This is easy to fix though, I already sent a couple of patch=
es to
> > > Daniel and I will send more.
> >
> > I don't understand this, but I'm probably just being dumb.  What sort=
 of
> > tags does the SGML parser need to know about?  Most tags are defined =
in
> > the DocBook DTD, not in the parser.
> =

> I think your confusion comes from calling this a parser.  It's not a
> fully-fledged SGML parser, just a "hack" to allow us to process out SGM=
L
> docs.  I'm still a bit torn here, but I think we might want to look at
> taking advantage of the code in jade or openjade to do a real SGML to
> XML conversion for us, on the fly (since it seems to only take a
> fraction of a second for the conversion using sx/osx).  I don't know ho=
w
> unfriendly that would be.
>     Greg
> =


I have to rectify this, the problems are not because of the parser, but
because of the poor quality of the DocBook/SGML docs I am parsing. This
is the latest Ximian Gnome docs, some of them having embarassing errors
in them.

Laszlo

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Norman W. <Nor...@ea...>]

/ Daniel Veillard <vei...@re...> was heard to say:
| On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 03:48:05PM -0400, Norman Walsh wrote:
| > / Dan Mueth <d-...@uc...> was heard to say:
| > | How do these deal with the lack of encoding specification for DocBook/SGML
| > | docs?  It isn't obvious to me why it is a problem for XML docs and libxml2
| > | but not for SGML docs with jade/SP.
| > 
| > I'm not sure.
| 
|   Argh, if you don't know, who will ... Maybe we will have to ask James.

The answer occurred to me while I was working in the garden this
morning.  While XML has a fixed SGML Declaration, SGML does not. So if
you want to use some character encoding other than the one described
by the reference concrete syntax, you have to provide the SGML
Declaration that indicates what characters are used (and what they
mean).

Although now that I write this, I'm not sure if that's the whole answer.
Just because I say that code point 0xED is a name character that doesn't
tell the processor what glyph to use. Hmm...

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Nor...@Su...   | Resist the urge to hurry; it will only slow
XML Standards Engineer | you down--Bruce Eckel
Technology Dev. Group  | 
Sun Microsystems, Inc. | 

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Daniel V. <vei...@re...>]

On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 03:48:05PM -0400, Norman Walsh wrote:
> / Dan Mueth <d-...@uc...> was heard to say:
> | How do these deal with the lack of encoding specification for DocBook/SGML
> | docs?  It isn't obvious to me why it is a problem for XML docs and libxml2
> | but not for SGML docs with jade/SP.
> 
> I'm not sure.

  Argh, if you don't know, who will ... Maybe we will have to ask James.

BTW, if automatic encoding detection is not possible, is there a way in
DocBook to indicate the encoding if known (for example on the root element) ?
If this detection/advertizing requires human input, it would be great to
have to deal with it only once.

Daniel

-- 
Daniel Veillard      | Red Hat Network http://redhat.com/products/network/
vei...@re...  | libxml Gnome XML XSLT toolkit  http://xmlsoft.org/
http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Norman W. <Nor...@ea...>]

/ Dan Mueth <d-...@uc...> was heard to say:
| How do these deal with the lack of encoding specification for DocBook/SGML
| docs?  It isn't obvious to me why it is a problem for XML docs and libxml2
| but not for SGML docs with jade/SP.

I'm not sure.

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Nor...@Su...   | The truest wild beasts live in the most
XML Standards Engineer | populous places.--Graci\'an
Technology Dev. Group  | 
Sun Microsystems, Inc. | 

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Dan M. <d-...@uc...>]

On 18 May 2001, Norman Walsh wrote:

> / L=E1szl=F3 Kov=E1cs <las...@su...> was heard to say:
> | > And simply linking to SP isn't an option because...?
> |
> | What is SP?
>
> James Clark's SGML parser. The heart of nsgmls, jade, sx, etc.

How do these deal with the lack of encoding specification for DocBook/SGM=
L
docs?  It isn't obvious to me why it is a problem for XML docs and libxml=
2
but not for SGML docs with jade/SP.

Dan

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Norman W. <Nor...@ea...>]

/ László Kovács <las...@su...> was heard to say:
| > And simply linking to SP isn't an option because...?
| 
| What is SP?

James Clark's SGML parser. The heart of nsgmls, jade, sx, etc.

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Nor...@Su...   | Everything should be made as simple as
XML Standards Engineer | possible, but no simpler.
Technology Dev. Group  | 
Sun Microsystems, Inc. | 

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[<las...@su...>]

> And simply linking to SP isn't an option because...?
> 
>                                         Be seeing you,
>                                           norm

What is SP?

Laszlo

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Daniel V. <vei...@re...>]

On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 12:52:53PM -0400, Norman Walsh wrote:
> / Daniel Veillard <vei...@re...> was heard to say:
> |   libxml don't read SGML Dtds, this parser is an had-hoc parser. All tags
> | need to be compiled in. Sorry it's gross but developping a full blown
> | SGML parser is not a good use of anybody's time now :-)
> 
> And simply linking to SP isn't an option because...?

  Because I don't know how to do it. If scrollkeeper developers want to do
it, fine by me :-)
  There is no good reason to do it for libxml, the goal of the exercise was
to provide a tool (a hack agreed) to smooth the transition (and provide a
way to save external parsed entities when converting existing docs to XML).
Now if someone has a better solution, fine by me.

Daniel

-- 
Daniel Veillard      | Red Hat Network http://redhat.com/products/network/
vei...@re...  | libxml Gnome XML XSLT toolkit  http://xmlsoft.org/
http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Norman W. <nd...@nw...>]

/ Daniel Veillard <vei...@re...> was heard to say:
|   libxml don't read SGML Dtds, this parser is an had-hoc parser. All tags
| need to be compiled in. Sorry it's gross but developping a full blown
| SGML parser is not a good use of anybody's time now :-)

And simply linking to SP isn't an option because...?

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Norman Walsh <nd...@nw...> | 'Heartless Cynics,' the young men
http://nwalsh.com/            | shout, / Blind to the world of Fact
                              | without; / 'Silly Dreamers,' the old
                              | men grin / Deaf to the world of Purpose
                              | within.--W. H. Auden

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Daniel V. <vei...@re...>]

On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 09:04:26AM -0700, Gregory Leblanc wrote:
> I think your confusion comes from calling this a parser.  It's not a
> fully-fledged SGML parser, just a "hack" to allow us to process out SGML
> docs.  I'm still a bit torn here, but I think we might want to look at
> taking advantage of the code in jade or openjade to do a real SGML to
> XML conversion for us, on the fly (since it seems to only take a
> fraction of a second for the conversion using sx/osx).  I don't know how
> unfriendly that would be.

  Sure you can use the existing tools to convert your content to XML.
But all our docs uses external parsed entities. Your scheme won't deal
with this cleanly (basically you will get everything substitued in a single
flat file as the output, I doubt anybody who wrote docs for Gnome will
like this).

  Now if you feel compelled for providing a better solution I would
be *extremely* pleased if you could volunteer to do this conversion for
the GNOME project in general, thanks you in advance !

Daniel

-- 
Daniel Veillard      | Red Hat Network http://redhat.com/products/network/
vei...@re...  | libxml Gnome XML XSLT toolkit  http://xmlsoft.org/
http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Daniel V. <vei...@re...>]

On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:57:31PM +0100, L=E1szl=F3 Kov=E1cs wrote:
> Dan Mueth wrote:
> >=20
> > On Thu, 17 May 2001, L=E1szl=F3 Kov=E1cs wrote:
> >=20
> > > 1. The SGML parser is not perfect, there are DocBook tags it doesnt=
 know
> > > about. This is easy to fix though, I already sent a couple of patch=
es to
> > > Daniel and I will send more.
> >=20
> > I don't understand this, but I'm probably just being dumb.  What sort=
 of
> > tags does the SGML parser need to know about?  Most tags are defined =
in
> > the DocBook DTD, not in the parser.
> That is a question for DV, not for me. In the source file of the SGML
> parser there is a big table with the DocBook tags. If the tag is not
> there then it is not recognized by the parser.

  libxml don't read SGML Dtds, this parser is an had-hoc parser. All tags
need to be compiled in. Sorry it's gross but developping a full blown
SGML parser is not a good use of anybody's time now :-)

> > Did you discuss this with DV?  I thought the reason he put the SGML p=
arser
> > into libxml2 was to handle these sort of docs and problems.  I doubt =
he
> > expected all SGML docs to have the encoding specified.
> No, he didnt expect them to have the encoding inside them, but the SGML
> parser routines take an extra parameter which is the encoding. As far a=
s
> the SGML parser is concerned the encoding has to be passed in by the
> caller. As far as I see the situation the SGML parser is not able to
> detect the encoding. I think (seeing Norman's mail) that DocBook SGML
> does not have any way to specify the encoding in the file while XML in
> general specifies it in the header. This is why it can be detected in
> XML, it is not based on the content.

  Yes that's the problem.
We need to know what is the encoding used by the SGML document. I don't k=
now
how to guess/compute it.

Daniel

--=20
Daniel Veillard      | Red Hat Network http://redhat.com/products/network=
/
vei...@re...  | libxml Gnome XML XSLT toolkit  http://xmlsoft.org/
http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Gregory L. <gle...@cu...>]

On 18 May 2001 10:44:54 -0500, Dan Mueth wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 17 May 2001, László Kovács wrote:
> 
> > 1. The SGML parser is not perfect, there are DocBook tags it doesnt know
> > about. This is easy to fix though, I already sent a couple of patches to
> > Daniel and I will send more.
> 
> I don't understand this, but I'm probably just being dumb.  What sort of
> tags does the SGML parser need to know about?  Most tags are defined in
> the DocBook DTD, not in the parser.

I think your confusion comes from calling this a parser.  It's not a
fully-fledged SGML parser, just a "hack" to allow us to process out SGML
docs.  I'm still a bit torn here, but I think we might want to look at
taking advantage of the code in jade or openjade to do a real SGML to
XML conversion for us, on the fly (since it seems to only take a
fraction of a second for the conversion using sx/osx).  I don't know how
unfriendly that would be.
    Greg

-- 
Troll, troll, troll your post
Gently down the feed
Merrily, merrily troll along
A life is what you need...

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Question about <see> and <seealso>

[Norman W. <nd...@nw...>]

/ Mary Dwyer <Mar...@Su...> was heard to say:
| and you want to create a see(or seealso) reference - is the following correct?
| <indexterm><primary>Chapter</primary><secondary>Example</secondary>
| <see>Book Division, Example</see></indexterm>

Yes, that's correct. Ideally these should be constructed by ID/IDREF
or something, but back in '94 there weren't any processors around that
could do that.

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Norman Walsh <nd...@nw...> | To achieve great things we must live as
http://nwalsh.com/            | though we were never going to
                              | die.--Vauvenargues

[Scrollkeeper-devel] Re: Locale fallback

[Dan M. <d-...@uc...>]

Hi,

I thought I would forward Laszlo's question to the mailing list for GNOME
translators so they could comment.

To put a little context around this for anybody who isn't following
ScrollKeeper: ScrollKeeper is being used to populate the help browser wit=
h
a list of documents available.  Because many locales do not have
all documents translated, Laszlo is allowing for locale fallback.  This
way one can list the order of preference of locales.  If the document
isn't available in your first choice locale, it goes on to see if it is
available in your second choice, ...

Dan

On Thu, 17 May 2001, L=E1szl=F3 Kov=E1cs wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This is mostly finished now, I have on issue to be sorted. The fallback
> is basically a merge of trees according to a couple of locale related
> environment variables. The ones I consider are LC_MESSAGES, LC_ALL and
> LANG. I take the locale list from whichever is first set (in the order
> described previously) and use that.
>
> E.g. if LC_MESSAGES is da:de:en_US then these three category trees plus
> the C locale tree at the end get merged and the result is returned. Wha=
t
> doesnt happen is to try to find partial locale trees if the full locale
> ones are not available. Example:
>
> if LC_MESSAGES is es:pt_BR:C then I check for es, pt_BR and C, but I
> dont check for pt if pt_BR is not there. Do people think this is ok or
> it should be changed (so that it would check for pt if pt_BR is not
> there)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Laszlo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Scrollkeeper-devel mailing list
> Scr...@li...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scrollkeeper-devel
>

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[<las...@Su...>]

Dan Mueth wrote:
> =

> On Thu, 17 May 2001, L=E1szl=F3 Kov=E1cs wrote:
> =

> > 1. The SGML parser is not perfect, there are DocBook tags it doesnt k=
now
> > about. This is easy to fix though, I already sent a couple of patches=
 to
> > Daniel and I will send more.
> =

> I don't understand this, but I'm probably just being dumb.  What sort o=
f
> tags does the SGML parser need to know about?  Most tags are defined in=

> the DocBook DTD, not in the parser.
That is a question for DV, not for me. In the source file of the SGML
parser there is a big table with the DocBook tags. If the tag is not
there then it is not recognized by the parser.

> Did you discuss this with DV?  I thought the reason he put the SGML par=
ser
> into libxml2 was to handle these sort of docs and problems.  I doubt he=

> expected all SGML docs to have the encoding specified.
No, he didnt expect them to have the encoding inside them, but the SGML
parser routines take an extra parameter which is the encoding. As far as
the SGML parser is concerned the encoding has to be passed in by the
caller. As far as I see the situation the SGML parser is not able to
detect the encoding. I think (seeing Norman's mail) that DocBook SGML
does not have any way to specify the encoding in the file while XML in
general specifies it in the header. This is why it can be detected in
XML, it is not based on the content.

Laszlo

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Dan M. <d-...@uc...>]

On Thu, 17 May 2001, L=E1szl=F3 Kov=E1cs wrote:

> 1. The SGML parser is not perfect, there are DocBook tags it doesnt kno=
w
> about. This is easy to fix though, I already sent a couple of patches t=
o
> Daniel and I will send more.

I don't understand this, but I'm probably just being dumb.  What sort of
tags does the SGML parser need to know about?  Most tags are defined in
the DocBook DTD, not in the parser.

> 2. This is more serious, libxml2 expects either UTF-8 input or encoding
> specified. There are loads of SGML docs out there that are not UTF-8 an=
d
> while in XML it is possible to specify the encoding in the header, this
> is not in SGML (AFAIK). So libxml2 expects the encoding to be passed in
> by the caller. This means we would need to come up with some way of
> detecting the encoding based on the contents of the SGML file.

Did you discuss this with DV?  I thought the reason he put the SGML parse=
r
into libxml2 was to handle these sort of docs and problems.  I doubt he
expected all SGML docs to have the encoding specified.

Dan

[Scrollkeeper-devel] Question about <see> and <seealso>

[Mary D. <Mar...@Su...>]

hi

quick question about use of see and seealso references.

Do these references always refer to a primary term 
eg 
<indexterm><primary>Chapter</primary><secondary>Example</secondary>
<see>Example Chapter</see></indexterm>

which refers to an index entry where "Example Chapter" is the primary term.

Or, if the reference is not required to be a primary term, how is the see 
reference constructed.
eg you have an index entry as follows:
<indexterm><primary>Book Division</primary><secondary>Example></secondary>
<indexterm>

and you want to create a see(or seealso) reference - is the following correct?
<indexterm><primary>Chapter</primary><secondary>Example</secondary>
<see>Book Division, Example</see></indexterm>


hope the question makes sense, if not let me know


TIA
Mary

~ I speak for myself, not for my employer ~
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Mary Dwyer
Desktop Applications & Middleware Grp
Sun Microsystems Ireland
Tel: +353-1-8199222 (xt 19222)
Fax: +353-1-8199078
email: mar...@ir...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[<las...@Su...>]

> While something like that is an option, I think our problem is a large
> body of completed and/or installed docs out there. It would be nice to
> have some way of detecting the encoding at run time. Is such a thing
> possible?

I dont know about any. I asked some localization people here and they
said there is no way.

Laszlo

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[John F. <jf...@in...>]

On Thu, May 17, 2001 at 08:47:58AM -0400, Norman Walsh wrote:
> / L=E1szl=F3 Kov=E1cs <las...@Su...> was heard to say:
> | 2. This is more serious, libxml2 expects either UTF-8 input or encodi=
ng
> | specified. There are loads of SGML docs out there that are not UTF-8 =
and
> | while in XML it is possible to specify the encoding in the header, th=
is
> | is not in SGML (AFAIK).
>=20
> You could put
>=20
> <?sgml-declaration encoding=3D"ISO-8859-1">
>=20
> Or something at the top of your SGML documents if you wanted to. The
> SGML parser wouldn't care.
>=20

While something like that is an option, I think our problem is a large
body of completed and/or installed docs out there. It would be nice to
have some way of detecting the encoding at run time. Is such a thing
possible?

Cheers,
--=20
John Fleck
jf...@in... (h)
jf...@ab... (w)
http://www.abqjournal.com/scitech/
http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[Norman W. <nd...@nw...>]

/ László Kovács <las...@Su...> was heard to say:
| 2. This is more serious, libxml2 expects either UTF-8 input or encoding
| specified. There are loads of SGML docs out there that are not UTF-8 and
| while in XML it is possible to specify the encoding in the header, this
| is not in SGML (AFAIK).

You could put

<?sgml-declaration encoding="ISO-8859-1">

Or something at the top of your SGML documents if you wanted to. The
SGML parser wouldn't care.

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Norman Walsh <nd...@nw...> | Success is relative; it is what we make
http://nwalsh.com/            | of the mess we have made of things.--T.
                              | S. Eliot

[Scrollkeeper-devel] Locale fallback

[<las...@Su...>]

Hi,

This is mostly finished now, I have on issue to be sorted. The fallback
is basically a merge of trees according to a couple of locale related
environment variables. The ones I consider are LC_MESSAGES, LC_ALL and
LANG. I take the locale list from whichever is first set (in the order
described previously) and use that.

E.g. if LC_MESSAGES is da:de:en_US then these three category trees plus
the C locale tree at the end get merged and the result is returned. What
doesnt happen is to try to find partial locale trees if the full locale
ones are not available. Example:

if LC_MESSAGES is es:pt_BR:C then I check for es, pt_BR and C, but I
dont check for pt if pt_BR is not there. Do people think this is ok or
it should be changed (so that it would check for pt if pt_BR is not
there)?

Thanks,

Laszlo

[Scrollkeeper-devel] Migration to libxml2

[<las...@Su...>]

Hi,

I sent out an email a while ago saying that I moved Scrollkeeper to
libxml2. I think for the near future at least we might need to consider
the migrated version wildly incompatible with previous releases. This is
because of the libxml2 library, mainly the SGML parser built into it.
There are two problems:

1. The SGML parser is not perfect, there are DocBook tags it doesnt know
about. This is easy to fix though, I already sent a couple of patches to
Daniel and I will send more.

2. This is more serious, libxml2 expects either UTF-8 input or encoding
specified. There are loads of SGML docs out there that are not UTF-8 and
while in XML it is possible to specify the encoding in the header, this
is not in SGML (AFAIK). So libxml2 expects the encoding to be passed in
by the caller. This means we would need to come up with some way of
detecting the encoding based on the contents of the SGML file. 

Both problems flood the screen with error messages when run on a variety
of SGML files from various locales.

Any ideas?

Laszlo

Re: [Scrollkeeper-devel] ScrollKeeper support in khelpcenter

[David M. <da...@lu...>]

On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 06:18:36PM +0200, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
> I've just comitted the code, which makes KHelpcenter support ScrollKeeper 
> (http://scrollkeeper.sourceforge.net/). If you don't have ScrollKeeper 
> installed nothing changes.
> 
> If you install packages which use ScrollKeeper for providing metadata about 
> their documentation, this documentation now automatically gets visible in the 
> tree view of KHelpcenter. You can get the same effect by installing metadata 
> files manually and calling scrollkeeper-update.
> 
> The next step would be to (automatically) generate metadata files for the KDE 
> documentation and install them with ScrollKeeper. Then the KDE docs would 
> also be accessible by non-KDE documentation browsers supporting ScrollKeeper. 
> This would be a nice step forward regarding desktop interoperability

Greg Ferguson at the LDP wrote a script called, appropriately enough,
db2omf, which generates omf files from DocBook SGML. Write to him for
a copy: gf...@sg....

Regards,

-- 
Dr. David C. Merrill                     http://www.lupercalia.net
Linux Documentation Project                   da...@lu...
Collection Editor & Coordinator            http://www.linuxdoc.org
                                       Finger me for my public key

At first sight, the idea of any rules or principles being superimposed on
the creative mind seems more likely to hinder than to help, but this is
quite untrue in practice.  Disciplined thinking focuses inspiration rather
than blinkers it.
		-- G.L. Glegg, "The Design of Design"

[Scrollkeeper-devel] ScrollKeeper support in khelpcenter

[Cornelius S. <sch...@kd...>]

I've just comitted the code, which makes KHelpcenter support ScrollKeeper 
(http://scrollkeeper.sourceforge.net/). If you don't have ScrollKeeper 
installed nothing changes.

If you install packages which use ScrollKeeper for providing metadata about 
their documentation, this documentation now automatically gets visible in the 
tree view of KHelpcenter. You can get the same effect by installing metadata 
files manually and calling scrollkeeper-update.

The next step would be to (automatically) generate metadata files for the KDE 
documentation and install them with ScrollKeeper. Then the KDE docs would 
also be accessible by non-KDE documentation browsers supporting ScrollKeeper. 
This would be a nice step forward regarding desktop interoperability

-- 
Cornelius Schumacher <sch...@kd...>