rails-devel — List for discussion of Rails development

Re: [Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug

[Justin R. <jus...@gm...>]

Oh, I actually had assumed that rails wasn't enforcing those types of
rules in any game. I will have a look and see if that's it.

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Stefan Filonardi <jk...@gm...> wrote:
> Hello Justin,
>
> Am 17.02.2011 21:39, schrieb Justin Rebelo:
>> I found in 1.4.1 during an 1889 game that I was unable to upgrade
>> a tile that seems like a perfectly legal upgrade. It was either a
>> tile #28 or #29 which should upgrade to a #39 but this was not
>> offered as an option. I imagine this is a really simple thing for
>> developers to verify, but if you need a save file, I can provide
>> one.
>
> Are you sure that the problem is not Rule 6.2 "Upgrading Tiles"?
> ".... at least one new track on the new tile must form part of a
> legal route of the company ...."
>
> There is only one new track part going from 28/29 to 39.
>
> If you are coming from the "united" part of the track, the new track
> isn't automatically part of a legal route for the building company.
>
> Hoping to not have added confusion,
> ciao stefan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug

[Stefan F. <jk...@gm...>]

Hello Justin,

Am 17.02.2011 21:39, schrieb Justin Rebelo:
> I found in 1.4.1 during an 1889 game that I was unable to upgrade
> a tile that seems like a perfectly legal upgrade. It was either a
> tile #28 or #29 which should upgrade to a #39 but this was not
> offered as an option. I imagine this is a really simple thing for
> developers to verify, but if you need a save file, I can provide
> one.

Are you sure that the problem is not Rule 6.2 "Upgrading Tiles"? 
".... at least one new track on the new tile must form part of a 
legal route of the company ...."

There is only one new track part going from 28/29 to 39.

If you are coming from the "united" part of the track, the new track 
isn't automatically part of a legal route for the building company.

Hoping to not have added confusion,
ciao stefan

[Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug

[Justin R. <jus...@gm...>]

I found in 1.4.1 during an 1889 game that I was unable to upgrade a
tile that seems like a perfectly legal upgrade. It was either a tile
#28 or #29 which should upgrade to a #39 but this was not offered as
an option. I imagine this is a really simple thing for developers to
verify, but if you need a save file, I can provide one.

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

>     How to use that application?

There are some hints on Marco's web page (see URL below).

>     In the mean time I did some really basic search in Yahoo 18xx group just to
> discover that identifying tiles is not a simple task as there is no final
> reference. And TileDesigner seems to be somehow a standard.
>     And yet I am unable to use it. After some time I discovered how to add city
> circles. Maybe I would manage to add track too. But I am unable to save it to
> anything else than <Tile> XML (no SVG) and even this is done somewhat
> weirdly. 

You can File|Save the dictionary, but to get tile images you have to use File|Export.
For Rails, set the filename template to 'tile<c0>'. Set the tile size to 170. Check or uncheck ID if you want the numeric ID to be visible or not.

However, there are several  problems with TileDesigner. For one thing, since a while all tiles I export this way turn out to be invisible. I'm running a Perl script (FixInvisibility.pl, in SVN) to fix that. Then you also have to export the tiles as XML and convert the result by class ConvertXML to create the basic Tiles.xml for Rails. And if you do that, TileDesigner does NOT store that XML in the directory you specify, but in a place that always takes me some time to find, as I can't remember it.  Etc. etc.  It's a real hassle.

I'll be happy to do the tile creation chores for you and everyone else. By now the procedure has more or less settled into my spine (as opposed to my brain). Luckily, most of the positively-numbered tiles already exist. 

> Also it does not open the TileDictionary.18t which I downloaded

Strange. In Windows, I associate the .18t extension with TileDesigner.exe, and that works fine.

Erik.

> from that page.
> 
>     Adam Badura
> 
> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> From: Erik Vos
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:16 PM
> To: 'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> 
> To create tile images and XML description, we use TileDesigner from Marco
> Rocci (see http://www.rails18xx.it/software.html ).
> This program has not been maintained for many years, and we don't have
> the source code, but this program is all we have to create tiles, so we have to
> live with its limitations and bugs. One limitation is that identifiers must be
> numeric.
> 
> The program comes with a tile database, containing 442 tiles, mostly tiles with
> IDs as defined in Blackwater Station's Tile Encyclopedia. It also contains the
> preprinted 1830 hexes as tiles with negative numbers. We have continued
> this approach when new tiles were added for other games, initially without
> much of a system, but more recently we have started to use a more
> systematic approach using large negative numbers for preprinted tiles. The
> total tile set now adds up to 559 tiles.
> 
> For the real (positive) tiles we follow the physical tile IDs where possible,
> adding 1000/2000/3000 in case of duplicate IDs (as did the original Tile
> Encyclopedia).  The occasional alphanumeric ID has to be replaced by some
> number; there isn't yet a rule for that.
> 
> Since some time it is possible to display a different ("external") number than
> the (internal) tile ID to identify tiles textually in all Rails windows, and from
> the next release this external ID can be alphanumeric (see
> 1830 Coalfields, in progress). However, the tile images still display internal IDs
> only. I suppose the SVG tiles could be tweaked manually to show
> alphanumeric IDs well, but I haven't looked into that. (BTW the internal IDs
> are omitted on the preprinted tiles, TileDesigner has a seperate 'export'
> option for that).
> 
> Some specific points raised:
> 
> > >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
> > >>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the
> > >>> tile on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of
> > >>> the tile on the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.
> 
> The off-centre city (-10) and village (-1) tiles come from the original
> TileDesigner database, and in most cases we have used these in creating
> maps without particular attention to correct placement. The simplest solution
> would be to rotate such tiles,and/ or to replace these by the centered city
> (-3008) and village (-3009) tiles, that have been created for 18EU in a much
> later stage.
> 
> > >>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As
> > >> the IDs are currently required to be numbers.
> 
> For such cases it was proposed to use six-digit negative numbers. But that
> proposal came after 18AL and 18EU had been done, and IIRC no decision has
> yet been taken.
> 
> 
> Erik.
> 
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: brett lentz [mailto:bre...@gm...]
> > Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 16:27
> > Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >
> > Adam -
> >
> > If you're interested in refactoring, do it and post the patches.
> > Reviewing the code will help further the discussion about the change's
> > merits.
> >
> > ---Brett.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:26 AM,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > >    Maybe it would be a good thing to refactor this things and clear
> > > it a bit. This would ease development of new games.
> > >
> > >    Adam Badura
> > >
> > > -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > > From: Phil Davies
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:12 PM
> > > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > > Cc: ab...@o2...
> > > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > >
> > > Hmm, a quick peek into the tileset.xml shows I was probably lying
> > > about 1830...
> > >
> > > The thing I described below is true for 1856 since that was
> > > implemented recently, the older implemented games (AL, EU, 30) seem
> > > to have a -9xx designation for preprinted offboards and city hexes
> > > that differ from the standard tiles.  These likely have no
> > > particular order or structure inherent to them and were just
> > > incrementally added by whoever did them.  I believe the suggestion
> > > was that there would be a numeric lookup for games like AL/EU but
> > > that has never been implemented to date.
> > >
> > > I'm working off my assumptions as well here so consider that I may
> > > well be very wrong, only the person who did the work originally
> > > (likely several people) could answer but developer activity is
> > > sporadic around here given most peoples other commitments.
> > >
> > > On 16 February 2011 11:00,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > >>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As
> > >> the IDs are currently required to be numbers.
> > >>
> > >>    Adam Badura
> > >>
> > >> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > >> From: Phil Davies
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:57 AM
> > >> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > >> Cc: ab...@o2...
> > >> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > >>
> > >> 1870 is off centre:
> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/650167/1870
> > >> So is 1830:
> > >> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89710/1830-railways-robber-
> > barons
> > >>
> > >> 1830 is probably the most important one since this was the original
> > >> template which rails was designed against, only later games have
> > >> had more centralised tile icons.
> > >>
> > >> Overall, does it really matter?  It's clear what the tile is doing
> > >> which is all that's really important.
> > >>
> > >> The 'large' tile ID's are again game prefixes (25001 is a tile for
> > >> 1825, 30005 is a tile for 1830, 56001 is a tile for 1856 etc.).
> > >> They are usually assigned an incremental number based on whichever
> > >> order the developer chose to add them.  For example, 25001 is the
> > >> London tile in 1825, this has no corresponding physical tile and so
> > >> cannot be assigned a tile number from any existing tile database,
> > >> it gets a
> > >> 25 prefix for coming from 1825 and a 001 likely because it was the
> > >> first tile of the '25 specific ones Erik chose to add when he did
> > >> that work.
> > >>
> > >> Phil
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 16 February 2011 10:44,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > >>> No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being not
> > >>> in the center. Consider 18AL
> > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al),
> > >>> 1889
> > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU
> > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA
> > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However
> 1851
> > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an
> exception
> > >>> here for example.
> > >>>
> > >>> As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that
> > >>> you only use numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use
> > >>> large IDs for game specific tile. However with no clear guidelines
> > >>> how those IDs where assigned and which are for which game.
> > >>>
> > >>> Adam Badura
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > >>> From: Phil Davies
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> > >>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > >>> Cc: ab...@o2...
> > >>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > >>>
> > >>> Adam,
> > >>>
> > >>> I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion
> > >>> we had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails
> > >>> needs tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the
> > >>> physical tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking, a grey
> > >>> tile that is preprinted has a negative number matching the
> > >>> corresponding physical tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles that
> > >>> exist only for specific games are prefixed with the games ID (AL
> > >>> in the case of 18AL etc.)
> > >>>
> > >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
> > >>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the
> > >>> tile on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of
> > >>> the tile on the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.
> > >>>
> > >>> Phil
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > >>>>    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/
> > >>>> page.
> > >>>> I
> > >>>> think it would be better. However it would require code changes
> > >>>> to allow non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and
> > >>>> cities) and negative/positive IDs.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>    Adam Badura
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > >>>> From: brett lentz
> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
> > >>>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > >>>> Cc: Adam Badura
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Adam -
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers
> > >>>> that overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's
> > >>>> choice in naming and our own implementation details related to
> > >>>> how Rails handles tile filenames, etc.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile
> > >>>> names as best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please
> > >>>> suggest it and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ---Brett.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic
> > >>>>> identifiers are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but
> > >>>>> imprinted ones like the referred –3005. But still game specific
> > >>>>> tiles are “strange”. Like for example AL441.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     Adam Badura
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> From: Adam Badura
> > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
> > >>>>> To: rai...@li...
> > >>>>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin
> > >>>>> Yellow tile has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use
> > >>>>> codes as given on http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them
> > >>>>> accessible for larger audience?
> > >>>>> Also
> > >>>>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in
> > >>>>> the code?
> > >>>>> Why
> > >>>>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those
> > >>>>> towns and cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but
> > >>>>> rather pushed at one side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     Adam Badura
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> ----------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > >>>> Parallel Studio
> > >>>> XE:
> > >>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > >>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > >>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit
> > >>>> performance.
> > >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Rails-devel mailing list
> > >>>> Rai...@li...
> > >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> --
> > >>> ---------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > >>> Parallel Studio XE:
> > >>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > >>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > >>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Rails-devel mailing list
> > >>> Rai...@li...
> > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> --
> > >> --------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > >> Parallel Studio XE:
> > >> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > >> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > >> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Rails-devel mailing list
> > >> Rai...@li...
> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > -------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > > Parallel Studio XE:
> > > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rails-devel mailing list
> > > Rai...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > Parallel Studio XE:
> > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[<ab...@o2...>]

    How to use that application?
    In the mean time I did some really basic search in Yahoo 18xx group just 
to discover that identifying tiles is not a simple task as there is no final 
reference. And TileDesigner seems to be somehow a standard.
    And yet I am unable to use it. After some time I discovered how to add 
city circles. Maybe I would manage to add track too. But I am unable to save 
it to anything else than <Tile> XML (no SVG) and even this is done somewhat 
weirdly. Also it does not open the TileDictionary.18t which I downloaded 
from that page.

    Adam Badura

-----Oryginalna wiadomość----- 
From: Erik Vos
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:16 PM
To: 'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

To create tile images and XML description, we use TileDesigner from Marco 
Rocci (see http://www.rails18xx.it/software.html ).
This program has not been maintained for many years, and we don't have the 
source code, but this program is all we have to create tiles, so we have to 
live with its limitations and bugs. One limitation is that identifiers must 
be numeric.

The program comes with a tile database, containing 442 tiles, mostly tiles 
with IDs as defined in Blackwater Station's Tile Encyclopedia. It also 
contains the preprinted 1830 hexes as tiles with negative numbers. We have 
continued this approach when new tiles were added for other games, initially 
without much of a system, but more recently we have started to use a more 
systematic approach using large negative numbers for preprinted tiles. The 
total tile set now adds up to 559 tiles.

For the real (positive) tiles we follow the physical tile IDs where 
possible, adding 1000/2000/3000 in case of duplicate IDs (as did the 
original Tile Encyclopedia).  The occasional alphanumeric ID has to be 
replaced by some number; there isn't yet a rule for that.

Since some time it is possible to display a different ("external") number 
than the (internal) tile ID to identify tiles textually in all Rails 
windows, and from the next release this external ID can be alphanumeric (see 
1830 Coalfields, in progress). However, the tile images still display 
internal IDs only. I suppose the SVG tiles could be tweaked manually to show 
alphanumeric IDs well, but I haven't looked into that. (BTW the internal IDs 
are omitted on the preprinted tiles, TileDesigner has a seperate 'export' 
option for that).

Some specific points raised:

> >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
> >>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the
> >>> tile on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the
> >>> tile on the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.

The off-centre city (-10) and village (-1) tiles come from the original 
TileDesigner database, and in most cases we have used these in creating maps 
without particular attention to correct placement. The simplest solution 
would be to rotate such tiles,and/ or to replace these by the centered city 
(-3008) and village (-3009) tiles, that have been created for 18EU in a much 
later stage.

> >>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As
> >> the IDs are currently required to be numbers.

For such cases it was proposed to use six-digit negative numbers. But that 
proposal came after 18AL and 18EU had been done, and IIRC no decision has 
yet been taken.


Erik.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: brett lentz [mailto:bre...@gm...]
> Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 16:27
> Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>
> Adam -
>
> If you're interested in refactoring, do it and post the patches.
> Reviewing the code will help further the discussion about the change's
> merits.
>
> ---Brett.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:26 AM,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> >    Maybe it would be a good thing to refactor this things and clear it
> > a bit. This would ease development of new games.
> >
> >    Adam Badura
> >
> > -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > From: Phil Davies
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:12 PM
> > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > Cc: ab...@o2...
> > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >
> > Hmm, a quick peek into the tileset.xml shows I was probably lying
> > about 1830...
> >
> > The thing I described below is true for 1856 since that was
> > implemented recently, the older implemented games (AL, EU, 30) seem to
> > have a -9xx designation for preprinted offboards and city hexes that
> > differ from the standard tiles.  These likely have no particular order
> > or structure inherent to them and were just incrementally added by
> > whoever did them.  I believe the suggestion was that there would be a
> > numeric lookup for games like AL/EU but that has never been
> > implemented to date.
> >
> > I'm working off my assumptions as well here so consider that I may
> > well be very wrong, only the person who did the work originally
> > (likely several people) could answer but developer activity is
> > sporadic around here given most peoples other commitments.
> >
> > On 16 February 2011 11:00,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> >>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As
> >> the IDs are currently required to be numbers.
> >>
> >>    Adam Badura
> >>
> >> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> >> From: Phil Davies
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:57 AM
> >> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> >> Cc: ab...@o2...
> >> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >>
> >> 1870 is off centre: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/650167/1870
> >> So is 1830:
> >> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89710/1830-railways-robber-
> barons
> >>
> >> 1830 is probably the most important one since this was the original
> >> template which rails was designed against, only later games have had
> >> more centralised tile icons.
> >>
> >> Overall, does it really matter?  It's clear what the tile is doing
> >> which is all that's really important.
> >>
> >> The 'large' tile ID's are again game prefixes (25001 is a tile for
> >> 1825, 30005 is a tile for 1830, 56001 is a tile for 1856 etc.).  They
> >> are usually assigned an incremental number based on whichever order
> >> the developer chose to add them.  For example, 25001 is the London
> >> tile in 1825, this has no corresponding physical tile and so cannot
> >> be assigned a tile number from any existing tile database, it gets a
> >> 25 prefix for coming from 1825 and a 001 likely because it was the
> >> first tile of the '25 specific ones Erik chose to add when he did that 
> >> work.
> >>
> >> Phil
> >>
> >>
> >> On 16 February 2011 10:44,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> >>> No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being not in
> >>> the center. Consider 18AL
> >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al),
> >>> 1889
> >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU
> >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA
> >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However 1851
> >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an exception
> >>> here for example.
> >>>
> >>> As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that you
> >>> only use numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use large
> >>> IDs for game specific tile. However with no clear guidelines how
> >>> those IDs where assigned and which are for which game.
> >>>
> >>> Adam Badura
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> >>> From: Phil Davies
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> >>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> >>> Cc: ab...@o2...
> >>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >>>
> >>> Adam,
> >>>
> >>> I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion we
> >>> had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails needs
> >>> tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the physical
> >>> tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking, a grey tile that
> >>> is preprinted has a negative number matching the corresponding
> >>> physical tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles that exist only for
> >>> specific games are prefixed with the games ID (AL in the case of
> >>> 18AL etc.)
> >>>
> >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
> >>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the
> >>> tile on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the
> >>> tile on the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.
> >>>
> >>> Phil
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> >>>>    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ 
> >>>> page.
> >>>> I
> >>>> think it would be better. However it would require code changes to
> >>>> allow non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it?
> >>>>
> >>>>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and
> >>>> cities) and negative/positive IDs.
> >>>>
> >>>>    Adam Badura
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> >>>> From: brett lentz
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
> >>>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> >>>> Cc: Adam Badura
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >>>>
> >>>> Adam -
> >>>>
> >>>> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers that
> >>>> overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in
> >>>> naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails
> >>>> handles tile filenames, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names
> >>>> as best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest
> >>>> it and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> ---Brett.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...>
> wrote:
> >>>>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic
> >>>>> identifiers are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but
> >>>>> imprinted ones like the referred –3005. But still game specific
> >>>>> tiles are “strange”. Like for example AL441.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     Adam Badura
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: Adam Badura
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
> >>>>> To: rai...@li...
> >>>>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin
> >>>>> Yellow tile has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes
> >>>>> as given on http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for
> >>>>> larger audience?
> >>>>> Also
> >>>>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the
> >>>>> code?
> >>>>> Why
> >>>>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those
> >>>>> towns and cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but
> >>>>> rather pushed at one side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     Adam Badura
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> ----------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> >>>> Parallel Studio
> >>>> XE:
> >>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> >>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> >>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit 
> >>>> performance.
> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Rails-devel mailing list
> >>>> Rai...@li...
> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ---------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> >>> Parallel Studio XE:
> >>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> >>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> >>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Rails-devel mailing list
> >>> Rai...@li...
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> --------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> >> Parallel Studio XE:
> >> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> >> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> >> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Rails-devel mailing list
> >> Rai...@li...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >>
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > Parallel Studio XE:
> > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel 

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

To create tile images and XML description, we use TileDesigner from Marco Rocci (see http://www.rails18xx.it/software.html ).
This program has not been maintained for many years, and we don't have the source code, but this program is all we have to create tiles, so we have to live with its limitations and bugs. One limitation is that identifiers must be numeric.

The program comes with a tile database, containing 442 tiles, mostly tiles with IDs as defined in Blackwater Station's Tile Encyclopedia. It also contains the preprinted 1830 hexes as tiles with negative numbers. We have continued this approach when new tiles were added for other games, initially without much of a system, but more recently we have started to use a more systematic approach using large negative numbers for preprinted tiles. The total tile set now adds up to 559 tiles.

For the real (positive) tiles we follow the physical tile IDs where possible, adding 1000/2000/3000 in case of duplicate IDs (as did the original Tile Encyclopedia).  The occasional alphanumeric ID has to be replaced by some number; there isn't yet a rule for that. 

Since some time it is possible to display a different ("external") number than the (internal) tile ID to identify tiles textually in all Rails windows, and from the next release this external ID can be alphanumeric (see 1830 Coalfields, in progress). However, the tile images still display internal IDs only. I suppose the SVG tiles could be tweaked manually to show alphanumeric IDs well, but I haven't looked into that. (BTW the internal IDs are omitted on the preprinted tiles, TileDesigner has a seperate 'export'  option for that).

Some specific points raised:

> >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
> >>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the
> >>> tile on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the
> >>> tile on the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.

The off-centre city (-10) and village (-1) tiles come from the original TileDesigner database, and in most cases we have used these in creating maps without particular attention to correct placement. The simplest solution would be to rotate such tiles,and/ or to replace these by the centered city (-3008) and village (-3009) tiles, that have been created for 18EU in a much later stage.

> >>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As
> >> the IDs are currently required to be numbers.

For such cases it was proposed to use six-digit negative numbers. But that proposal came after 18AL and 18EU had been done, and IIRC no decision has yet been taken.


Erik.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: brett lentz [mailto:bre...@gm...]
> Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 16:27
> Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> 
> Adam -
> 
> If you're interested in refactoring, do it and post the patches.
> Reviewing the code will help further the discussion about the change's
> merits.
> 
> ---Brett.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:26 AM,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> >    Maybe it would be a good thing to refactor this things and clear it
> > a bit. This would ease development of new games.
> >
> >    Adam Badura
> >
> > -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > From: Phil Davies
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:12 PM
> > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > Cc: ab...@o2...
> > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >
> > Hmm, a quick peek into the tileset.xml shows I was probably lying
> > about 1830...
> >
> > The thing I described below is true for 1856 since that was
> > implemented recently, the older implemented games (AL, EU, 30) seem to
> > have a -9xx designation for preprinted offboards and city hexes that
> > differ from the standard tiles.  These likely have no particular order
> > or structure inherent to them and were just incrementally added by
> > whoever did them.  I believe the suggestion was that there would be a
> > numeric lookup for games like AL/EU but that has never been
> > implemented to date.
> >
> > I'm working off my assumptions as well here so consider that I may
> > well be very wrong, only the person who did the work originally
> > (likely several people) could answer but developer activity is
> > sporadic around here given most peoples other commitments.
> >
> > On 16 February 2011 11:00,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> >>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As
> >> the IDs are currently required to be numbers.
> >>
> >>    Adam Badura
> >>
> >> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> >> From: Phil Davies
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:57 AM
> >> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> >> Cc: ab...@o2...
> >> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >>
> >> 1870 is off centre: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/650167/1870
> >> So is 1830:
> >> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89710/1830-railways-robber-
> barons
> >>
> >> 1830 is probably the most important one since this was the original
> >> template which rails was designed against, only later games have had
> >> more centralised tile icons.
> >>
> >> Overall, does it really matter?  It's clear what the tile is doing
> >> which is all that's really important.
> >>
> >> The 'large' tile ID's are again game prefixes (25001 is a tile for
> >> 1825, 30005 is a tile for 1830, 56001 is a tile for 1856 etc.).  They
> >> are usually assigned an incremental number based on whichever order
> >> the developer chose to add them.  For example, 25001 is the London
> >> tile in 1825, this has no corresponding physical tile and so cannot
> >> be assigned a tile number from any existing tile database, it gets a
> >> 25 prefix for coming from 1825 and a 001 likely because it was the
> >> first tile of the '25 specific ones Erik chose to add when he did that work.
> >>
> >> Phil
> >>
> >>
> >> On 16 February 2011 10:44,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> >>> No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being not in
> >>> the center. Consider 18AL
> >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al),
> >>> 1889
> >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU
> >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA
> >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However 1851
> >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an exception
> >>> here for example.
> >>>
> >>> As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that you
> >>> only use numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use large
> >>> IDs for game specific tile. However with no clear guidelines how
> >>> those IDs where assigned and which are for which game.
> >>>
> >>> Adam Badura
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> >>> From: Phil Davies
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> >>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> >>> Cc: ab...@o2...
> >>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >>>
> >>> Adam,
> >>>
> >>> I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion we
> >>> had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails needs
> >>> tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the physical
> >>> tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking, a grey tile that
> >>> is preprinted has a negative number matching the corresponding
> >>> physical tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles that exist only for
> >>> specific games are prefixed with the games ID (AL in the case of
> >>> 18AL etc.)
> >>>
> >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
> >>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the
> >>> tile on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the
> >>> tile on the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.
> >>>
> >>> Phil
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> >>>>    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ page.
> >>>> I
> >>>> think it would be better. However it would require code changes to
> >>>> allow non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it?
> >>>>
> >>>>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and
> >>>> cities) and negative/positive IDs.
> >>>>
> >>>>    Adam Badura
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> >>>> From: brett lentz
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
> >>>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> >>>> Cc: Adam Badura
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >>>>
> >>>> Adam -
> >>>>
> >>>> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers that
> >>>> overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in
> >>>> naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails
> >>>> handles tile filenames, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names
> >>>> as best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest
> >>>> it and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> ---Brett.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...>
> wrote:
> >>>>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic
> >>>>> identifiers are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but
> >>>>> imprinted ones like the referred –3005. But still game specific
> >>>>> tiles are “strange”. Like for example AL441.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     Adam Badura
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: Adam Badura
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
> >>>>> To: rai...@li...
> >>>>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin
> >>>>> Yellow tile has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes
> >>>>> as given on http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for
> >>>>> larger audience?
> >>>>> Also
> >>>>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the
> >>>>> code?
> >>>>> Why
> >>>>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those
> >>>>> towns and cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but
> >>>>> rather pushed at one side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     Adam Badura
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> ----------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> >>>> Parallel Studio
> >>>> XE:
> >>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> >>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> >>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Rails-devel mailing list
> >>>> Rai...@li...
> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ---------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> >>> Parallel Studio XE:
> >>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> >>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> >>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Rails-devel mailing list
> >>> Rai...@li...
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> --------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> >> Parallel Studio XE:
> >> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> >> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> >> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Rails-devel mailing list
> >> Rai...@li...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >>
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > Parallel Studio XE:
> > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[brett l. <bre...@gm...>]

Adam -

If you're interested in refactoring, do it and post the patches.
Reviewing the code will help further the discussion about the change's
merits.

---Brett.



On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:26 AM,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>    Maybe it would be a good thing to refactor this things and clear it a
> bit. This would ease development of new games.
>
>    Adam Badura
>
> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> From: Phil Davies
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:12 PM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Cc: ab...@o2...
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>
> Hmm, a quick peek into the tileset.xml shows I was probably lying about
> 1830...
>
> The thing I described below is true for 1856 since that was
> implemented recently, the older implemented games (AL, EU, 30) seem to
> have a -9xx designation for preprinted offboards and city hexes that
> differ from the standard tiles.  These likely have no particular order
> or structure inherent to them and were just incrementally added by
> whoever did them.  I believe the suggestion was that there would be a
> numeric lookup for games like AL/EU but that has never been
> implemented to date.
>
> I'm working off my assumptions as well here so consider that I may
> well be very wrong, only the person who did the work originally
> (likely several people) could answer but developer activity is
> sporadic around here given most peoples other commitments.
>
> On 16 February 2011 11:00,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As the IDs
>> are currently required to be numbers.
>>
>>    Adam Badura
>>
>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
>> From: Phil Davies
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:57 AM
>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>> Cc: ab...@o2...
>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>
>> 1870 is off centre: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/650167/1870
>> So is 1830:
>> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89710/1830-railways-robber-barons
>>
>> 1830 is probably the most important one since this was the original
>> template which rails was designed against, only later games have had
>> more centralised tile icons.
>>
>> Overall, does it really matter?  It's clear what the tile is doing
>> which is all that's really important.
>>
>> The 'large' tile ID's are again game prefixes (25001 is a tile for
>> 1825, 30005 is a tile for 1830, 56001 is a tile for 1856 etc.).  They
>> are usually assigned an incremental number based on whichever order
>> the developer chose to add them.  For example, 25001 is the London
>> tile in 1825, this has no corresponding physical tile and so cannot be
>> assigned a tile number from any existing tile database, it gets a 25
>> prefix for coming from 1825 and a 001 likely because it was the first
>> tile of the '25 specific ones Erik chose to add when he did that work.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> On 16 February 2011 10:44,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>> No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being not in the
>>> center. Consider 18AL (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al),
>>> 1889
>>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU
>>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA
>>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However 1851
>>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an exception here for
>>> example.
>>>
>>> As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that you only
>>> use
>>> numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use large IDs for game
>>> specific tile. However with no clear guidelines how those IDs where
>>> assigned
>>> and which are for which game.
>>>
>>> Adam Badura
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
>>> From: Phil Davies
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
>>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>>> Cc: ab...@o2...
>>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>>
>>> Adam,
>>>
>>> I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion we
>>> had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails needs
>>> tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the physical
>>> tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking, a grey tile that is
>>> preprinted has a negative number matching the corresponding physical
>>> tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles that exist only for specific
>>> games are prefixed with the games ID (AL in the case of 18AL etc.)
>>>
>>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
>>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the tile
>>> on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the tile on
>>> the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>>>    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ page.
>>>> I
>>>> think it would be better. However it would require code changes to allow
>>>> non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it?
>>>>
>>>>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and cities)
>>>> and
>>>> negative/positive IDs.
>>>>
>>>>    Adam Badura
>>>>
>>>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
>>>> From: brett lentz
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
>>>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>>>> Cc: Adam Badura
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>>>
>>>> Adam -
>>>>
>>>> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers that
>>>> overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in
>>>> naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails handles
>>>> tile filenames, etc.
>>>>
>>>> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names as
>>>> best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
>>>>
>>>> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest it
>>>> and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
>>>>
>>>> ---Brett.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>>>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic
>>>>> identifiers
>>>>> are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but imprinted ones like
>>>>> the
>>>>> referred –3005. But still game specific tiles are “strange”. Like for
>>>>> example AL441.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Adam Badura
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Adam Badura
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
>>>>> To: rai...@li...
>>>>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>>>>
>>>>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin Yellow
>>>>> tile
>>>>> has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes as given on
>>>>> http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for larger audience?
>>>>> Also
>>>>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the
>>>>> code?
>>>>> Why
>>>>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those towns
>>>>> and
>>>>> cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but rather pushed at
>>>>> one
>>>>> side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
>>>>>
>>>>>     Adam Badura
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio
>>>> XE:
>>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Rails-devel mailing list
>>>> Rai...@li...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Rails-devel mailing list
>>> Rai...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[<ab...@o2...>]

    Maybe it would be a good thing to refactor this things and clear it a 
bit. This would ease development of new games.

    Adam Badura

-----Oryginalna wiadomość----- 
From: Phil Davies
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:12 PM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Cc: ab...@o2...
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

Hmm, a quick peek into the tileset.xml shows I was probably lying about 
1830...

The thing I described below is true for 1856 since that was
implemented recently, the older implemented games (AL, EU, 30) seem to
have a -9xx designation for preprinted offboards and city hexes that
differ from the standard tiles.  These likely have no particular order
or structure inherent to them and were just incrementally added by
whoever did them.  I believe the suggestion was that there would be a
numeric lookup for games like AL/EU but that has never been
implemented to date.

I'm working off my assumptions as well here so consider that I may
well be very wrong, only the person who did the work originally
(likely several people) could answer but developer activity is
sporadic around here given most peoples other commitments.

On 16 February 2011 11:00,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As the IDs
> are currently required to be numbers.
>
>    Adam Badura
>
> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> From: Phil Davies
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:57 AM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Cc: ab...@o2...
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>
> 1870 is off centre: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/650167/1870
> So is 1830:
> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89710/1830-railways-robber-barons
>
> 1830 is probably the most important one since this was the original
> template which rails was designed against, only later games have had
> more centralised tile icons.
>
> Overall, does it really matter?  It's clear what the tile is doing
> which is all that's really important.
>
> The 'large' tile ID's are again game prefixes (25001 is a tile for
> 1825, 30005 is a tile for 1830, 56001 is a tile for 1856 etc.).  They
> are usually assigned an incremental number based on whichever order
> the developer chose to add them.  For example, 25001 is the London
> tile in 1825, this has no corresponding physical tile and so cannot be
> assigned a tile number from any existing tile database, it gets a 25
> prefix for coming from 1825 and a 001 likely because it was the first
> tile of the '25 specific ones Erik chose to add when he did that work.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On 16 February 2011 10:44,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>> No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being not in the
>> center. Consider 18AL (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al),
>> 1889
>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU
>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA
>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However 1851
>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an exception here for
>> example.
>>
>> As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that you only
>> use
>> numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use large IDs for game
>> specific tile. However with no clear guidelines how those IDs where
>> assigned
>> and which are for which game.
>>
>> Adam Badura
>>
>>
>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
>> From: Phil Davies
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>> Cc: ab...@o2...
>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>
>> Adam,
>>
>> I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion we
>> had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails needs
>> tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the physical
>> tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking, a grey tile that is
>> preprinted has a negative number matching the corresponding physical
>> tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles that exist only for specific
>> games are prefixed with the games ID (AL in the case of 18AL etc.)
>>
>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the tile
>> on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the tile on
>> the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>>    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ page. 
>>> I
>>> think it would be better. However it would require code changes to allow
>>> non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it?
>>>
>>>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and cities) 
>>> and
>>> negative/positive IDs.
>>>
>>>    Adam Badura
>>>
>>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
>>> From: brett lentz
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
>>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>>> Cc: Adam Badura
>>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>>
>>> Adam -
>>>
>>> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers that
>>> overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in
>>> naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails handles
>>> tile filenames, etc.
>>>
>>> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names as
>>> best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
>>>
>>> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest it
>>> and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
>>>
>>> ---Brett.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic
>>>> identifiers
>>>> are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but imprinted ones like
>>>> the
>>>> referred –3005. But still game specific tiles are “strange”. Like for
>>>> example AL441.
>>>>
>>>>     Adam Badura
>>>>
>>>> From: Adam Badura
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
>>>> To: rai...@li...
>>>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>>>
>>>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin Yellow
>>>> tile
>>>> has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes as given on
>>>> http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for larger audience?
>>>> Also
>>>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the 
>>>> code?
>>>> Why
>>>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those towns 
>>>> and
>>>> cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but rather pushed at
>>>> one
>>>> side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
>>>>
>>>>     Adam Badura
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio 
>>> XE:
>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Rails-devel mailing list
>>> Rai...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> 

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[Phil D. <de...@gm...>]

Hmm, a quick peek into the tileset.xml shows I was probably lying about 1830...

The thing I described below is true for 1856 since that was
implemented recently, the older implemented games (AL, EU, 30) seem to
have a -9xx designation for preprinted offboards and city hexes that
differ from the standard tiles.  These likely have no particular order
or structure inherent to them and were just incrementally added by
whoever did them.  I believe the suggestion was that there would be a
numeric lookup for games like AL/EU but that has never been
implemented to date.

I'm working off my assumptions as well here so consider that I may
well be very wrong, only the person who did the work originally
(likely several people) could answer but developer activity is
sporadic around here given most peoples other commitments.

On 16 February 2011 11:00,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As the IDs
> are currently required to be numbers.
>
>    Adam Badura
>
> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> From: Phil Davies
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:57 AM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Cc: ab...@o2...
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>
> 1870 is off centre: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/650167/1870
> So is 1830:
> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89710/1830-railways-robber-barons
>
> 1830 is probably the most important one since this was the original
> template which rails was designed against, only later games have had
> more centralised tile icons.
>
> Overall, does it really matter?  It's clear what the tile is doing
> which is all that's really important.
>
> The 'large' tile ID's are again game prefixes (25001 is a tile for
> 1825, 30005 is a tile for 1830, 56001 is a tile for 1856 etc.).  They
> are usually assigned an incremental number based on whichever order
> the developer chose to add them.  For example, 25001 is the London
> tile in 1825, this has no corresponding physical tile and so cannot be
> assigned a tile number from any existing tile database, it gets a 25
> prefix for coming from 1825 and a 001 likely because it was the first
> tile of the '25 specific ones Erik chose to add when he did that work.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On 16 February 2011 10:44,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>> No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being not in the
>> center. Consider 18AL (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al),
>> 1889
>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU
>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA
>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However 1851
>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an exception here for
>> example.
>>
>> As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that you only
>> use
>> numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use large IDs for game
>> specific tile. However with no clear guidelines how those IDs where
>> assigned
>> and which are for which game.
>>
>> Adam Badura
>>
>>
>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
>> From: Phil Davies
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>> Cc: ab...@o2...
>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>
>> Adam,
>>
>> I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion we
>> had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails needs
>> tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the physical
>> tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking, a grey tile that is
>> preprinted has a negative number matching the corresponding physical
>> tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles that exist only for specific
>> games are prefixed with the games ID (AL in the case of 18AL etc.)
>>
>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the tile
>> on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the tile on
>> the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>>    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ page. I
>>> think it would be better. However it would require code changes to allow
>>> non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it?
>>>
>>>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and cities) and
>>> negative/positive IDs.
>>>
>>>    Adam Badura
>>>
>>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
>>> From: brett lentz
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
>>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>>> Cc: Adam Badura
>>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>>
>>> Adam -
>>>
>>> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers that
>>> overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in
>>> naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails handles
>>> tile filenames, etc.
>>>
>>> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names as
>>> best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
>>>
>>> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest it
>>> and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
>>>
>>> ---Brett.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic
>>>> identifiers
>>>> are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but imprinted ones like
>>>> the
>>>> referred –3005. But still game specific tiles are “strange”. Like for
>>>> example AL441.
>>>>
>>>>     Adam Badura
>>>>
>>>> From: Adam Badura
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
>>>> To: rai...@li...
>>>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>>>
>>>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin Yellow
>>>> tile
>>>> has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes as given on
>>>> http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for larger audience?
>>>> Also
>>>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the code?
>>>> Why
>>>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those towns and
>>>> cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but rather pushed at
>>>> one
>>>> side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
>>>>
>>>>     Adam Badura
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Rails-devel mailing list
>>> Rai...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[<ab...@o2...>]

    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As the IDs 
are currently required to be numbers.

    Adam Badura

-----Oryginalna wiadomość----- 
From: Phil Davies
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:57 AM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Cc: ab...@o2...
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

1870 is off centre: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/650167/1870
So is 1830: 
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89710/1830-railways-robber-barons

1830 is probably the most important one since this was the original
template which rails was designed against, only later games have had
more centralised tile icons.

Overall, does it really matter?  It's clear what the tile is doing
which is all that's really important.

The 'large' tile ID's are again game prefixes (25001 is a tile for
1825, 30005 is a tile for 1830, 56001 is a tile for 1856 etc.).  They
are usually assigned an incremental number based on whichever order
the developer chose to add them.  For example, 25001 is the London
tile in 1825, this has no corresponding physical tile and so cannot be
assigned a tile number from any existing tile database, it gets a 25
prefix for coming from 1825 and a 001 likely because it was the first
tile of the '25 specific ones Erik chose to add when he did that work.

Phil


On 16 February 2011 10:44,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being not in the
> center. Consider 18AL (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al), 
> 1889
> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU
> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA
> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However 1851
> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an exception here for
> example.
>
> As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that you only 
> use
> numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use large IDs for game
> specific tile. However with no clear guidelines how those IDs where 
> assigned
> and which are for which game.
>
> Adam Badura
>
>
> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> From: Phil Davies
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Cc: ab...@o2...
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>
> Adam,
>
> I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion we
> had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails needs
> tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the physical
> tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking, a grey tile that is
> preprinted has a negative number matching the corresponding physical
> tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles that exist only for specific
> games are prefixed with the games ID (AL in the case of 18AL etc.)
>
> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the tile
> on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the tile on
> the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ page. I
>> think it would be better. However it would require code changes to allow
>> non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it?
>>
>>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and cities) and
>> negative/positive IDs.
>>
>>    Adam Badura
>>
>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
>> From: brett lentz
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>> Cc: Adam Badura
>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>
>> Adam -
>>
>> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers that
>> overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in
>> naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails handles
>> tile filenames, etc.
>>
>> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names as
>> best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
>>
>> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest it
>> and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
>>
>> ---Brett.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic 
>>> identifiers
>>> are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but imprinted ones like
>>> the
>>> referred –3005. But still game specific tiles are “strange”. Like for
>>> example AL441.
>>>
>>>     Adam Badura
>>>
>>> From: Adam Badura
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
>>> To: rai...@li...
>>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>>
>>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin Yellow
>>> tile
>>> has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes as given on
>>> http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for larger audience?
>>> Also
>>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the code?
>>> Why
>>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those towns and
>>> cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but rather pushed at 
>>> one
>>> side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
>>>
>>>     Adam Badura
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> 

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[Phil D. <de...@gm...>]

1870 is off centre: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/650167/1870
So is 1830: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89710/1830-railways-robber-barons

1830 is probably the most important one since this was the original
template which rails was designed against, only later games have had
more centralised tile icons.

Overall, does it really matter?  It's clear what the tile is doing
which is all that's really important.

The 'large' tile ID's are again game prefixes (25001 is a tile for
1825, 30005 is a tile for 1830, 56001 is a tile for 1856 etc.).  They
are usually assigned an incremental number based on whichever order
the developer chose to add them.  For example, 25001 is the London
tile in 1825, this has no corresponding physical tile and so cannot be
assigned a tile number from any existing tile database, it gets a 25
prefix for coming from 1825 and a 001 likely because it was the first
tile of the '25 specific ones Erik chose to add when he did that work.

Phil


On 16 February 2011 10:44,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being not in the
> center. Consider 18AL (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al), 1889
> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU
> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA
> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However 1851
> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an exception here for
> example.
>
> As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that you only use
> numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use large IDs for game
> specific tile. However with no clear guidelines how those IDs where assigned
> and which are for which game.
>
> Adam Badura
>
>
> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> From: Phil Davies
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Cc: ab...@o2...
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>
> Adam,
>
> I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion we
> had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails needs
> tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the physical
> tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking, a grey tile that is
> preprinted has a negative number matching the corresponding physical
> tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles that exist only for specific
> games are prefixed with the games ID (AL in the case of 18AL etc.)
>
> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the tile
> on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the tile on
> the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ page. I
>> think it would be better. However it would require code changes to allow
>> non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it?
>>
>>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and cities) and
>> negative/positive IDs.
>>
>>    Adam Badura
>>
>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
>> From: brett lentz
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>> Cc: Adam Badura
>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>
>> Adam -
>>
>> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers that
>> overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in
>> naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails handles
>> tile filenames, etc.
>>
>> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names as
>> best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
>>
>> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest it
>> and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
>>
>> ---Brett.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic identifiers
>>> are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but imprinted ones like
>>> the
>>> referred –3005. But still game specific tiles are “strange”. Like for
>>> example AL441.
>>>
>>>     Adam Badura
>>>
>>> From: Adam Badura
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
>>> To: rai...@li...
>>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>>
>>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin Yellow
>>> tile
>>> has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes as given on
>>> http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for larger audience?
>>> Also
>>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the code?
>>> Why
>>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those towns and
>>> cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but rather pushed at one
>>> side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
>>>
>>>     Adam Badura
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[<ab...@o2...>]

No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being not in the 
center. Consider 18AL (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al), 1889 
(http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU 
(http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA 
(http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However 1851 
(http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an exception here for 
example.

As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that you only use 
numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use large IDs for game 
specific tile. However with no clear guidelines how those IDs where assigned 
and which are for which game.

Adam Badura


-----Oryginalna wiadomość----- 
From: Phil Davies
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Cc: ab...@o2...
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

Adam,

I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion we
had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails needs
tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the physical
tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking, a grey tile that is
preprinted has a negative number matching the corresponding physical
tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles that exist only for specific
games are prefixed with the games ID (AL in the case of 18AL etc.)

Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the tile
on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the tile on
the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.

Phil



On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ page. I
> think it would be better. However it would require code changes to allow
> non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it?
>
>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and cities) and
> negative/positive IDs.
>
>    Adam Badura
>
> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> From: brett lentz
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Cc: Adam Badura
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>
> Adam -
>
> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers that
> overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in
> naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails handles
> tile filenames, etc.
>
> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names as
> best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
>
> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest it
> and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
>
> ---Brett.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic identifiers
>> are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but imprinted ones like 
>> the
>> referred –3005. But still game specific tiles are “strange”. Like for
>> example AL441.
>>
>>     Adam Badura
>>
>> From: Adam Badura
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
>> To: rai...@li...
>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>
>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin Yellow
>> tile
>> has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes as given on
>> http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for larger audience?
>> Also
>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the code?
>> Why
>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those towns and
>> cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but rather pushed at one
>> side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
>>
>>     Adam Badura
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> 

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[Phil D. <de...@gm...>]

Adam,

I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion we
had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails needs
tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the physical
tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking, a grey tile that is
preprinted has a negative number matching the corresponding physical
tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles that exist only for specific
games are prefixed with the games ID (AL in the case of 18AL etc.)

Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the tile
on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the tile on
the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.

Phil



On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ page. I
> think it would be better. However it would require code changes to allow
> non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it?
>
>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and cities) and
> negative/positive IDs.
>
>    Adam Badura
>
> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> From: brett lentz
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Cc: Adam Badura
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>
> Adam -
>
> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers that
> overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in
> naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails handles
> tile filenames, etc.
>
> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names as
> best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
>
> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest it
> and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
>
> ---Brett.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic identifiers
>> are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but imprinted ones like the
>> referred –3005. But still game specific tiles are “strange”. Like for
>> example AL441.
>>
>>     Adam Badura
>>
>> From: Adam Badura
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
>> To: rai...@li...
>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>>
>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin Yellow
>> tile
>> has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes as given on
>> http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for larger audience?
>> Also
>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the code?
>> Why
>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those towns and
>> cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but rather pushed at one
>> side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
>>
>>     Adam Badura
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[<ab...@o2...>]

    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ page. I 
think it would be better. However it would require code changes to allow 
non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it?

    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and cities) and 
negative/positive IDs.

    Adam Badura

-----Oryginalna wiadomość----- 
From: brett lentz
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Cc: Adam Badura
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

Adam -

Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers that
overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in
naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails handles
tile filenames, etc.

In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names as
best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.

If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest it
and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)

---Brett.



On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic identifiers
> are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but imprinted ones like the
> referred –3005. But still game specific tiles are “strange”. Like for
> example AL441.
>
>     Adam Badura
>
> From: Adam Badura
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
> To: rai...@li...
> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>
>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin Yellow 
> tile
> has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes as given on
> http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for larger audience? 
> Also
> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the code? 
> Why
> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those towns and
> cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but rather pushed at one
> side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
>
>     Adam Badura
> 

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[brett l. <bre...@gm...>]

Adam -

Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers that
overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in
naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails handles
tile filenames, etc.

In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names as
best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.

If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest it
and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)

---Brett.



On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...> wrote:
>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic identifiers
> are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but imprinted ones like the
> referred –3005. But still game specific tiles are “strange”. Like for
> example AL441.
>
>     Adam Badura
>
> From: Adam Badura
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
> To: rai...@li...
> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>
>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin Yellow tile
> has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes as given on
> http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for larger audience? Also
> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the code? Why
> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those towns and
> cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but rather pushed at one
> side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
>
>     Adam Badura
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[Adam B. <ab...@o2...>]

    After further investigation it seems that the problematic identifiers are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but imprinted ones like the referred –3005. But still game specific tiles are “strange”. Like for example AL441.

    Adam Badura

From: Adam Badura 
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
To: rai...@li... 
Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

    How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin Yellow tile has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes as given on http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for larger audience? Also what is the difference between negative and positive number in the code? Why base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those towns and cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but rather pushed at one side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?

    Adam Badura


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

[Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[Adam B. <ab...@o2...>]

    How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin Yellow tile has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes as given on http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for larger audience? Also what is the difference between negative and positive number in the code? Why base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those towns and cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but rather pushed at one side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?

    Adam Badura

Re: [Rails-devel] Can't lay port tile, 1889, version 1.4.1

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

It wasn't clear on my reading of the other thread that the issue applied to
1.4.1.  Nor had anyone posted the workaround.

Thanks.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 10:49 PM, Justin Rebelo <jus...@gm...>wrote:

> This was already addressed in a separate thread. The problem is fixed
> but won't be out in circulation unless you get dev code or a release
> comes out sooner.
>
> I had the issue and was able to place the port by just loading it in
> 1.4 and then saving later and loading it back in 1.4.1.
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 8:52 PM, Chris Shaffer <chr...@gm...>
> wrote:
> > We are playing a game of 1889, just begun using Rails 1.4.1.  When the
> port
> > owner tries to lay the tile, no tile is offered.  The console dump is
> below.
> >  I think this is related to a bug discussed recently, but that was in
> > development code, not 1.4.1.
> > --
> > Chris
> >
> > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> >
> >
> > log4j.configuration =  log4j.properties
> > Cmdline profile selection = null
> > Profile selection = user
> > Loading games list from GamesList.xml
> > Exception in thread "AWT-EventQueue-0" java.lang.NullPointerException
> > at rails.ui.swing.UpgradesPanel.populate(UpgradesPanel.java:106)
> > at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.updateUpgradesPanel(ORUIManager.java:1729)
> > at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.setLocalStep(ORUIManager.java:1706)
> > at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.hexClicked(ORUIManager.java:668)
> > at rails.ui.swing.hexmap.HexMap.mouseClicked(HexMap.java:550)
> > at
> java.awt.AWTEventMulticaster.mouseClicked(AWTEventMulticaster.java:269)
> > at java.awt.Component.processMouseEvent(Component.java:6178)
> > at javax.swing.JComponent.processMouseEvent(JComponent.java:3267)
> > at java.awt.Component.processEvent(Component.java:5940)
> > at java.awt.Container.processEvent(Container.java:2105)
> > at java.awt.Component.dispatchEventImpl(Component.java:4536)
> > at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Container.java:2163)
> > at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Component.java:4362)
> > at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.retargetMouseEvent(Container.java:4461)
> > at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.processMouseEvent(Container.java:4134)
> > at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.dispatchEvent(Container.java:4055)
> > at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Container.java:2149)
> > at java.awt.Window.dispatchEventImpl(Window.java:2478)
> > at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Component.java:4362)
> > at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(EventQueue.java:604)
> > at
> >
> java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilters(EventDispatchThread.java:275)
> > at
> >
> java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForFilter(EventDispatchThread.java:200)
> > at
> >
> java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(EventDispatchThread.java:190)
> > at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(EventDispatchThread.java:185)
> > at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(EventDispatchThread.java:177)
> > at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(EventDispatchThread.java:138)
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Can't lay port tile, 1889, version 1.4.1

[Justin R. <jus...@gm...>]

This was already addressed in a separate thread. The problem is fixed
but won't be out in circulation unless you get dev code or a release
comes out sooner.

I had the issue and was able to place the port by just loading it in
1.4 and then saving later and loading it back in 1.4.1.

On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 8:52 PM, Chris Shaffer <chr...@gm...> wrote:
> We are playing a game of 1889, just begun using Rails 1.4.1.  When the port
> owner tries to lay the tile, no tile is offered.  The console dump is below.
>  I think this is related to a bug discussed recently, but that was in
> development code, not 1.4.1.
> --
> Chris
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>
>
> log4j.configuration =  log4j.properties
> Cmdline profile selection = null
> Profile selection = user
> Loading games list from GamesList.xml
> Exception in thread "AWT-EventQueue-0" java.lang.NullPointerException
> at rails.ui.swing.UpgradesPanel.populate(UpgradesPanel.java:106)
> at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.updateUpgradesPanel(ORUIManager.java:1729)
> at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.setLocalStep(ORUIManager.java:1706)
> at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.hexClicked(ORUIManager.java:668)
> at rails.ui.swing.hexmap.HexMap.mouseClicked(HexMap.java:550)
> at java.awt.AWTEventMulticaster.mouseClicked(AWTEventMulticaster.java:269)
> at java.awt.Component.processMouseEvent(Component.java:6178)
> at javax.swing.JComponent.processMouseEvent(JComponent.java:3267)
> at java.awt.Component.processEvent(Component.java:5940)
> at java.awt.Container.processEvent(Container.java:2105)
> at java.awt.Component.dispatchEventImpl(Component.java:4536)
> at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Container.java:2163)
> at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Component.java:4362)
> at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.retargetMouseEvent(Container.java:4461)
> at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.processMouseEvent(Container.java:4134)
> at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.dispatchEvent(Container.java:4055)
> at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Container.java:2149)
> at java.awt.Window.dispatchEventImpl(Window.java:2478)
> at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Component.java:4362)
> at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(EventQueue.java:604)
> at
> java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilters(EventDispatchThread.java:275)
> at
> java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForFilter(EventDispatchThread.java:200)
> at
> java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(EventDispatchThread.java:190)
> at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(EventDispatchThread.java:185)
> at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(EventDispatchThread.java:177)
> at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(EventDispatchThread.java:138)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
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[Rails-devel] Can't lay port tile, 1889, version 1.4.1

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

We are playing a game of 1889, just begun using Rails 1.4.1.  When the port
owner tries to lay the tile, no tile is offered.  The console dump is below.
 I think this is related to a bug discussed recently, but that was in
development code, not 1.4.1.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


log4j.configuration =  log4j.properties
Cmdline profile selection = null
Profile selection = user
Loading games list from GamesList.xml
Exception in thread "AWT-EventQueue-0" java.lang.NullPointerException
at rails.ui.swing.UpgradesPanel.populate(UpgradesPanel.java:106)
 at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.updateUpgradesPanel(ORUIManager.java:1729)
at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.setLocalStep(ORUIManager.java:1706)
 at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.hexClicked(ORUIManager.java:668)
at rails.ui.swing.hexmap.HexMap.mouseClicked(HexMap.java:550)
 at java.awt.AWTEventMulticaster.mouseClicked(AWTEventMulticaster.java:269)
at java.awt.Component.processMouseEvent(Component.java:6178)
 at javax.swing.JComponent.processMouseEvent(JComponent.java:3267)
at java.awt.Component.processEvent(Component.java:5940)
 at java.awt.Container.processEvent(Container.java:2105)
at java.awt.Component.dispatchEventImpl(Component.java:4536)
 at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Container.java:2163)
at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Component.java:4362)
 at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.retargetMouseEvent(Container.java:4461)
at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.processMouseEvent(Container.java:4134)
 at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.dispatchEvent(Container.java:4055)
at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Container.java:2149)
 at java.awt.Window.dispatchEventImpl(Window.java:2478)
at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Component.java:4362)
 at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(EventQueue.java:604)
at
java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilters(EventDispatchThread.java:275)
 at
java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForFilter(EventDispatchThread.java:200)
at
java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(EventDispatchThread.java:190)
 at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(EventDispatchThread.java:185)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(EventDispatchThread.java:177)
 at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(EventDispatchThread.java:138)

[Rails-devel] can't lay port tile in 1889.

[Peter M. <sun...@gm...>]

Hey Rails Folks,
I'm playing 1889 and I own the port private.  Rails is telling me I may lay the port tile, but it won't put the port tile on the board in the highlighted hexes.  Do you folks have this on your fix-list?

Peter Mumford

Re: [Rails-devel] 1889 Regression: private B and laying the porttile?

[Phil D. <de...@gm...>]

Cool, thanks Erik

On 11 February 2011 22:56, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:
> Fixed.
>
>>     It worked fine on my machine. I did:
>
> Indeed.  The error was probably introduced by one of my most recent changes.
>
> Erik.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
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> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>

Re: [Rails-devel] 1830 The Coalfields

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

I have done a first step towards implementing 1830 Coalfields. The map and
tiles have been done, and the N&W company shares have been added. No other
changes so far.

A basic game can be played, but don't expect adherence to the special rules
of this variant yet.

 

To allow displaying non-numeric tile names ("BA"and "G17" in this case), I
have changed the external IDs to strings rather than integers.  Reminder:
these external IDs are (or should be) displayed everywhere in Rails, except
on the tile images which (after zooming in) show the internal tile IDs (2061
and 1717).

 

Erik.

 

Van: Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...] 
Verzonden: zondag 30 januari 2011 4:22
Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] 1830 The Coalfields

 

Train obsolescence is already implemented in 18AL, so shouldn't be too
difficult.


--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Scott Petersen <sc...@re...>
wrote:

Here is a change list for 1830 The Coalfields.  Most of the changes will be
easy to implement, but the following might not?
-Train obsolescence (run one more time after rusting)
-Coalfields access rights (see #2 below)

I could help by generating the SVG files for the new tiles and map hexes,
unless there is anything special about them(?).

The full list of rules changes is here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/11477/the-coalfields-zip

I took a Coalfields map and placed stars on all the hexes that have changed
from base 1830:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40149/coalfields_chgs.pdf

The hex numbers are consistent with the ones in Rails.

1830 The Coalfields Change List

1. Various map changes (see pdf above that shows all the hexes that have
changed)  
2. New Coalfields hex (L10) that operates like a pass through offboard, but
requires a "Coalfields access rights" certificate. This may be purchased by
a connected company during that company's track building phase. 
3. Additional company, Norfolk & Western (N&W) starts in L16. C&O home is
moved.
4. Additional trains: one 4T, one 6T, two 7Ts (7Ts cost $710, available upon
first 6T purchase), diesels repriced at $900 or $750 with a trade in.
5. Cert limits raised by one at all player counts
6. Various changed tiles (tile manifest:
http://www.diogenes.sacramento.ca.us/18xx_net/tiles/1830.htm, then scroll
down a bit for Coalfields)
 -Remove two #53 (green "B")
 -Add two green "B", same as #53 except two city spots
 -Remove two #61 tiles
 -Add one #997 http://www.diogenes.sacramento.ca.us/18xx_net/tiles/e997.htm
 -Add one #BA http://www.diogenes.sacramento.ca.us/18xx_net/tiles/e_BA.htm
 -Remove #62
 -Add #CF62 http://www.diogenes.sacramento.ca.us/18xx_net/tiles/e_CF62.htm
 -Add one #G17 http://www.diogenes.sacramento.ca.us/18xx_net/tiles/e_G17.htm
This tile upgrades a yellow double-dit in G17 only
 -Add two #57
 -Add one #14
 -Add one #15
 -Add one #63
7. Train obsolescence.  Rusted trains get one extra run and then disappear.
8. Optionally add $8,000 to the bank

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Re: [Rails-devel] 1889 Regression: private B and laying the porttile?

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Fixed.

>     It worked fine on my machine. I did:

Indeed.  The error was probably introduced by one of my most recent changes.

Erik.

Re: [Rails-devel] 1889 Regression: private B and laying the port tile?

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Ah, the ConcurrentModificationException: an old friend....  That occurs when
a List is modified while it is being iterated.
I'll look at it a.s.a.p.

Erik.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Phil Davies [mailto:de...@gm...]
> Verzonden: donderdag 10 februari 2011 16:24
> Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] 1889 Regression: private B and laying the
port
> tile?
> 
> Erik,
> 
> I think something is going funny with the tile laying code in games where
you
> can lay multiple tiles in a turn.  Try loading up the attached saved game
and
> try and lay a yellow tile somewhere, you get the following error noted
below.
> I spotted this trying to do some work on 1825 but it's present in 1851, I
> haven't tried 1835 yet but I imagine it might have the same situation.
Seems
> to be a failure around decreasing the number of allowed tile lays for the
> company.
> 
> 
> Exception in thread "AWT-EventQueue-0"
> java.util.ConcurrentModificationException
> 	at java.util.HashMap$HashIterator.nextEntry(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.util.HashMap$KeyIterator.next(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.util.Collections$UnmodifiableCollection$1.next(Unknown
> Source)
> 	at
> rails.game.OperatingRound.updateAllowedTileColours(OperatingRound.java
> :476)
> 	at
> rails.game.OperatingRound.checkNormalTileLay(OperatingRound.java:458)
> 	at
> rails.game.OperatingRound.registerNormalTileLay(OperatingRound.java:445)
> 	at rails.game.OperatingRound.layTile(OperatingRound.java:429)
> 	at rails.game.OperatingRound.process(OperatingRound.java:192)
> 	at rails.game.GameManager.process(GameManager.java:824)
> 	at
> rails.ui.swing.GameUIManager.processOnServer(GameUIManager.java:239)
> 	at rails.ui.swing.ORWindow.process(ORWindow.java:154)
> 	at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.layTile(ORUIManager.java:796)
> 	at
> rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.executeUpgrade(ORUIManager.java:1328)
> 	at
> rails.ui.swing.UpgradesPanel.actionPerformed(UpgradesPanel.java:399)
> 	at javax.swing.AbstractButton.fireActionPerformed(Unknown
> Source)
> 	at javax.swing.AbstractButton$Handler.actionPerformed(Unknown
> Source)
> 	at javax.swing.DefaultButtonModel.fireActionPerformed(Unknown
> Source)
> 	at javax.swing.DefaultButtonModel.setPressed(Unknown Source)
> 	at
> javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicButtonListener.mouseReleased(Unknown
> Source)
> 	at java.awt.Component.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
> 	at javax.swing.JComponent.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.Component.processEvent(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.Container.processEvent(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.Component.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.retargetMouseEvent(Unknown
> Source)
> 	at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.processMouseEvent(Unknown
> Source)
> 	at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.Window.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
> 	at
> java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilters(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForFilter(Unknown
> Source)
> 	at
> java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
> 	at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(Unknown Source)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 4 February 2011 18:42, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:
> > Fixed bug #3165621: 1889 port token could not be laid.
> > Tile laying code has been generally cleaned up and simplified. Some
> > other
> > (unrelated) minor bugs have been found and fixed.
> > Cases where both a regular and a special property-originating tile can
> > be laid on the same hex now work correctly (such as in 1899 hex G10 in
> > the saved file provided with the above bug).
> >
> > Please let me know if any unwanted change in behaviour of tile laying
> > processes are found. I have done quite some testing (and found some
> > more bugs in that process, still to fix), but it's not really possible
> > to check for all potential side effects of changing such old code.
> >
> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> >> Van: Bill Rosgen [mailto:ro...@gm...]
> >> Verzonden: dinsdag 25 januari 2011 11:42
> >> Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> >> Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] 1889 Regression: private B and laying
> >> the
> > port
> >> tile?
> >>
> >> Hi Phil,
> >>
> >> I encounter this error when playing a new game created in the trunk
> code.
> > If
> >> it works for others, it's probably some sort of misconfiguration on
> >> my
> > end.
> >> As far as I can tell I have the latest version of the source, but I'm
> >> not
> > very
> >> familiar with Eclipse.
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >> On 2011-01-25, at 18:23 , Phil Davies wrote:
> >>
> >> > Bill,
> >> >
> >> > I've just checked this against the trunk code checked out today and
> >> > I don't have this problem.
> >> >
> >> > Are you using a saved game made with 1.4?  There has been a change
> >> > to the tile manifest to 1889 (tile 440 was broken) so it's likely
> >> > that your saved game won't work with the trunk code because of this
> change.
> >> > Starting a new game from scratch and using B's power worked okay
> >> > for me.
> >> >
> >> > Phil
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 25 January 2011 09:57, Bill Rosgen <ro...@gm...> wrote:
> >> >> Hello,
> >> >>
> >> >> Hopefully this is the right place to post this.  I've recently
> >> >> checked
> > the
> >> source out of svn and have been playing around with rails (so that I
> >> can
> > play
> >> 18EU on my laptop with small screen).  When playing 1889 I run into a
> >> problem that the owner of private B cannot lay the port tile, but
> >> only if
> > I use
> >> the code I've checked out of svn -- version 1.4 works correctly.
> >> >>
> >> >> Specifically, when the user clicks on a map space where he can lay
> >> >> the
> >> port tile there's a NullPointerException thrown from line 106 of
> >> UpgradesPanel.populate().   It looks like the call to
> > layTile.getTileColours()
> >> returns a null pointer for at least one of the tiles in the list (I
> >> assume
> > it's the
> >> port tile, since it's a special tile, so the constructed of LayTile
> >> is
> > called for the
> >> SPECIAL_PROPERTY case where LayTile.tileColours does not get set.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have a savegame that can be used as a test-case, but I encounter
> >> >> this
> >> problem literally anytime the owner of private B attempts to lay the
> >> port
> > tile
> >> (which can be as early as the first tile lay), so I'm not sure it's
> >> worth
> > sending
> >> out.
> >> >>
> >> >> I am able to get around the problem my testing that
> >> layTile.getTileColours() returns non-null, but as I'm not familiar
> >> with
> > the code,
> >> I'm not sure if that will break anything else.  Specifically, if I
> >> change
> > lines 104-
> >> 115 of UpgradesPanel.populate() to the following:
> >> >>
> >> >>                for (TileI tile : tiles) {
> >> >>                    // Skip if not allowed in LayTile
> >> >>                    if (layTile.getTileColours() != null &&
> >> >> layTile.getTileColours().get(tile.getColourName()) < 1) continue;
> >> >>
> >> >>                    // special check: does the tile increase the
> >> >> colour
> > number?
> >> >>                    // this avoids that a special tile lay down or
> > equalgrades existing
> >> tiles
> >> >>                    // TODO EV: I'm not sure if this is a necessary
> > precaution.
> >> >>                    if (layTile.getTileColours() != null &&
> >> >> !layTile.isTileColourAllowed(tile.getColourName())) continue;
> >> >>
> >> >>                    if (!orUIManager.tileUpgrades.contains(tile))
> >> >>                        orUIManager.tileUpgrades.add(tile);
> >> >>                }
> >> >>
> >> >> then it seems that the private power works correctly.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'd send a patch, but I'm not convinced that UpgradesPanel is the
> >> >> right
> >> place to make this change and I'm also not sure that the bug isn't
> >> some artifact of me misconfiguring Eclipse.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >> Bill Rosgen
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> ---
> >> >> --------- Special Offer-- Download ArcSight Logger for FREE (a $49
> >> >> USD value)!
> >> >> Finally, a world-class log management solution at an even better
> >> >> price-
> >> free!
> >> >> Download using promo code Free_Logger_4_Dev2Dev. Offer expires
> >> >> February 28th, so secure your free ArcSight Logger TODAY!
> >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/arcsight-sfd2d
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Rails-devel mailing list
> >> >> Rai...@li...
> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > ---
> >> > -------- Special Offer-- Download ArcSight Logger for FREE (a $49
> >> > USD value)!
> >> > Finally, a world-class log management solution at an even better
> > price-free!
> >> > Download using promo code Free_Logger_4_Dev2Dev. Offer expires
> >> > February 28th, so secure your free ArcSight Logger TODAY!
> >> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/arcsight-sfd2d
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Rails-devel mailing list
> >> > Rai...@li...
> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------
> > --
> >> Special Offer-- Download ArcSight Logger for FREE (a $49 USD value)!
> >> Finally, a world-class log management solution at an even better
> > price-free!
> >> Download using promo code Free_Logger_4_Dev2Dev. Offer expires
> >> February 28th, so secure your free ArcSight Logger TODAY!
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/arcsight-sfd2d
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Rails-devel mailing list
> >> Rai...@li...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> >
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