rails-devel — List for discussion of Rails development

Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 Issue

[Aliza P. <ali...@gm...>]

To be more precise:

"Until the CGR has a permanent train (a type 5, type 6 or Diesel), its
token on the stock market is not adjusted from its starting position
for any reason, including sales of shares. Once the CGR acquires its
first permanent train, it may no longer borrow a Diesel."

So if (for example) the CGR forms with a 5-train and sells it to
another company for face value, it cannot borrow a Diesel, and moves
backwards normally if it has no train.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:25 AM, Stefan Filonardi <jk...@gm...> wrote:
> Hello Phil,
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:06:41 +0000
>> Von: Phil Davies <de...@gm...>
>> An: "Development list for Rails: an 18xx game" <rai...@li...>
>> Betreff: [Rails-devel] 1856 Issue
>
>> Discovered a 'bug' (ish) in 1856 whilst playing a game recently.
>> Currently rails checks to see whether the CGR is running a borrowed
>> train and if it is then rails forces the CGR to withhold.  The
>> situation that occurred in this game was that the CGR was able to run
>> a 4T inherited from it's merger corporations, I believe from the rules
>> that it must withhold revenues from a 4T until it can buy a permanent
>> train (I'm FAR from an expert on '56 though so if someone could
>> clarify that would be nice).
>
> You are right, the information is "hidden" in the section about Dividends within the CGR-Chapter:
> "When the CGR has a permanent train, it may, at the discretion of the current president, pay dividends." or
>
> http:/www.18xx.net/1856/1856f.htm
>
>> There was a further issue in that I think it was allowed to buy a 4T
>> from another corp, something it should not be allowed to do, but I
>> haven't looked into that in detail yet.
>
> Could you check if the Share Value token does move too? (It shouldn't)
>
> ciao stefan
>
>

Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 Issue

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

I clearly have misinterpreted the rules on this aspect.  Thanks for the fix,
I have applied it.

Erik.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Phil Davies [mailto:de...@gm...]
> Verzonden: donderdag 24 februari 2011 12:07
> Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Onderwerp: [Rails-devel] 1856 Issue
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> Discovered a 'bug' (ish) in 1856 whilst playing a game recently.
> Currently rails checks to see whether the CGR is running a borrowed train
> and if it is then rails forces the CGR to withhold.  The situation that
occurred
> in this game was that the CGR was able to run a 4T inherited from it's
merger
> corporations, I believe from the rules that it must withhold revenues from
a
> 4T until it can buy a permanent train (I'm FAR from an expert on '56
though so
> if someone could clarify that would be nice).
> 
> Admittedly this is one of those areas where the players should know the
> rules but it's nice to enforce these anyway, I believe the attached patch
> should fix the issue (simply changing the 'check for a borrowed train'
into a
> 'check if CGR has a permanent train') but would appreciate someone more
> skilled just double checking the impact!
> 
> There was a further issue in that I think it was allowed to buy a 4T from
> another corp, something it should not be allowed to do, but I haven't
looked
> into that in detail yet
> 
> Phil

Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 Issue

[Phil D. <de...@gm...>]

On 24 February 2011 12:25, Stefan Filonardi <jk...@gm...> wrote:
>> There was a further issue in that I think it was allowed to buy a 4T
>> from another corp, something it should not be allowed to do, but I
>> haven't looked into that in detail yet.
>
> Could you check if the Share Value token does move too? (It shouldn't)
>

Short answer: no

Longer answer: no, the share price does not move for sales or
withholding.  It moves up if the CGR pays out with a 4 train, which of
course it isn't allowed to do.  So if this fixes the forced
withholding bug then the token movement becomes a non-issue.

Phil

Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 Issue

[Stefan F. <jk...@gm...>]

Hello Phil,

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:06:41 +0000
> Von: Phil Davies <de...@gm...>
> An: "Development list for Rails: an 18xx game" <rai...@li...>
> Betreff: [Rails-devel] 1856 Issue

> Discovered a 'bug' (ish) in 1856 whilst playing a game recently.
> Currently rails checks to see whether the CGR is running a borrowed
> train and if it is then rails forces the CGR to withhold.  The
> situation that occurred in this game was that the CGR was able to run
> a 4T inherited from it's merger corporations, I believe from the rules
> that it must withhold revenues from a 4T until it can buy a permanent
> train (I'm FAR from an expert on '56 though so if someone could
> clarify that would be nice).

You are right, the information is "hidden" in the section about Dividends within the CGR-Chapter:
"When the CGR has a permanent train, it may, at the discretion of the current president, pay dividends." or

http:/www.18xx.net/1856/1856f.htm

> There was a further issue in that I think it was allowed to buy a 4T
> from another corp, something it should not be allowed to do, but I
> haven't looked into that in detail yet.

Could you check if the Share Value token does move too? (It shouldn't) 

ciao stefan

[Rails-devel] 1856 Issue

[Phil D. <de...@gm...>]

Hey all,

Discovered a 'bug' (ish) in 1856 whilst playing a game recently.
Currently rails checks to see whether the CGR is running a borrowed
train and if it is then rails forces the CGR to withhold.  The
situation that occurred in this game was that the CGR was able to run
a 4T inherited from it's merger corporations, I believe from the rules
that it must withhold revenues from a 4T until it can buy a permanent
train (I'm FAR from an expert on '56 though so if someone could
clarify that would be nice).

Admittedly this is one of those areas where the players should know
the rules but it's nice to enforce these anyway, I believe the
attached patch should fix the issue (simply changing the 'check for a
borrowed train' into a 'check if CGR has a permanent train') but would
appreciate someone more skilled just double checking the impact!

There was a further issue in that I think it was allowed to buy a 4T
from another corp, something it should not be allowed to do, but I
haven't looked into that in detail yet

Phil

Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 + Waterloo & Saugeen Railway Company

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

I'd characterize them as bug reports, rather than complaints.  :-)

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:
> Hi Stefan,
>
> Thanks a lot.  I can confirm that this problem no longer exists in the
> current code, so the next release (1.4.2?) will solve your problem.
>
> Given the number of complaints about 1.4.1, I'm thinking that perhaps we
> should release 1.4.2 pretty soon.
> Brett, what do you think?
>
> Erik.
>
>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>> Van: Stefan Filonardi [mailto:jk...@gm...]
>> Verzonden: zondag 20 februari 2011 18:12
>> Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>> Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 + Waterloo & Saugeen Railway Company
>>
>> Hello Erik,
>>
>> recap: The laying of tile #59 on the Kitchener I12 with the help of the
> special
>> ability of the private company W&SR doesn't work.
>>
>> Am 19.02.2011 17:30, schrieb Erik Vos:
>>  > Without a saved file I cannot really debug this. However, your  >
> problem
>> very much looks like a similar one with 1889, that was  > found in 1.4.1,
> and
>> that I already have fixed.
>>
>> - The BBG owns the W&SR and the TCC and it is its turn.
>>
>> - As soon as you will click on the hex I12 you will get a lot of messages
> in the
>> cmd.exe window. Furthermore no option to lay tile #59.
>>
>> ciao stefan
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
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> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>

Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 + Waterloo & Saugeen Railway Company

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Hi Stefan,

Thanks a lot.  I can confirm that this problem no longer exists in the
current code, so the next release (1.4.2?) will solve your problem.

Given the number of complaints about 1.4.1, I'm thinking that perhaps we
should release 1.4.2 pretty soon.
Brett, what do you think?

Erik.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Stefan Filonardi [mailto:jk...@gm...]
> Verzonden: zondag 20 februari 2011 18:12
> Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 + Waterloo & Saugeen Railway Company
> 
> Hello Erik,
> 
> recap: The laying of tile #59 on the Kitchener I12 with the help of the
special
> ability of the private company W&SR doesn't work.
> 
> Am 19.02.2011 17:30, schrieb Erik Vos:
>  > Without a saved file I cannot really debug this. However, your  >
problem
> very much looks like a similar one with 1889, that was  > found in 1.4.1,
and
> that I already have fixed.
> 
> - The BBG owns the W&SR and the TCC and it is its turn.
> 
> - As soon as you will click on the hex I12 you will get a lot of messages
in the
> cmd.exe window. Furthermore no option to lay tile #59.
> 
> ciao stefan

Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 + Waterloo & Saugeen Railway Company

[Stefan F. <jk...@gm...>]

Hello Erik,

recap: The laying of tile #59 on the Kitchener I12 with the help of 
the special ability of the private company W&SR doesn't work.

Am 19.02.2011 17:30, schrieb Erik Vos:
 > Without a saved file I cannot really debug this. However, your
 > problem very much looks like a similar one with 1889, that was
 > found in 1.4.1, and that I already have fixed.

- The BBG owns the W&SR and the TCC and it is its turn.

- As soon as you will click on the hex I12 you will get a lot of 
messages in the cmd.exe window. Furthermore no option to lay tile #59.

ciao stefan

Re: [Rails-devel] wiki

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

> I am already editing a little bit the wiki, but I can only do it from the
> perspective of a Rail user.

Good work so far!

>  I am already considering to try to make a users /
> tech division, maybe we could load up some nice graphic to show the
targets
> of the section. btw I have no idea of the wiki needs of the developers .

I see there already is a brief introduction to new game development in the
wiki. This could be the start of a more extensive tutorial, describing what
can be achieved via the XML config files. That, together with creating any
new tiles that might be required, would IMO always be phase 1 in adding a
new game to Rails. The end result of that phase would be a playable subset
of the game. One of my recent messages to Adam Badura already contains some
additional info. 

Phase 2 would be the Java programming work (in many cases accompanied by
some further XML work). Sometimes that will be easy, but quite often some
in-depth decisions need be taken.  And trust me: adding new private special
abilities almost always is a nightmare. IMHO, such work can generally better
be entrusted to experienced Rails developers.

As an example, I've already concluded that my suggestion to Adam about the
18GA OSR free 2-train is too simple and will not work that way.  And there
is another looming problem with trains: the two-way train certificates as
exist in e.g. 18VA and 18Scan.  My current thinking is that we need to
separate buyable trains from actual trains throughout. The former could be
named TrainCertificates. For example: an 18Scan 4/3+3-train certificate
would then be linked to two actual trains.  At buying time, the player must
decide which train is actually bought, and that train is acquired by the
company; the other one is lost.  Similarly in 18GA, a extra 2-train
certificate would not normally be buyable, but be linked to the OCR private.
Once this idea has been programmed, all usual cases would still be
configurable in the XML.  For 18GA, extra Java programming will then be
required only to accomplish the automatic transfer of the train, either to
the company or to the scrapheap, at the time that the private is bought by a
company (even that could be made configurable, but I'm reluctant to add code
to the generic code base that's applicable to one game only).

Erik.

[Rails-devel] wiki

[Stefan F. <jk...@gm...>]

Hello,

Am 19.02.2011 18:02, schrieb Erik Vos:
> Fine with me. Don't know if you can update the wiki yourself, otherwise send
> it to me.

I am already editing a little bit the wiki, but I can only do it 
from the perspective of a Rail user. I am already considering to try 
to make a users / tech division, maybe we could load up some nice 
graphic to show the targets of the section. btw I have no idea of 
the wiki needs of the developers .

ciao stefan

Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 + Waterloo & Saugeen Railway Company

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

> - On a more general note, I wanted to write an instruction for the rail
wiki
> around little fixes. At the moment some people await a new release even
for
> things that they could fix themself. Maybe we can show them that for
> instance something along the lines:

Fine with me. Don't know if you can update the wiki yourself, otherwise send
it to me.
Erik.

Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 + Waterloo & Saugeen Railway Company

[Stefan F. <jk...@gm...>]

Hello Erik,

- I am not sure if this discussion should happen here or it would
belong to rails-users. Reccomandations welcome.

Am 19.02.2011 17:30, schrieb Erik Vos:
 > Without a saved file I cannot really debug this. However, your
 > problem very much looks like a similar one with 1889, that was
 > found in 1.4.1, and that I already have fixed.

- About the bug: since it can be manually overcome the priority is
surely not that high, but if you wish I can send you a saved file.

- On a more general note, I wanted to write an instruction for
the rail wiki around little fixes. At the moment some people await a 
new release even for things that they could fix themself. Maybe we 
can show them that for instance something along the lines:

a) rename the file rails-1.4.1.jar in rails-1.4.1.zip

now you can browse the archive

b) go to /data/1889/

there you will find the file Tileset.xml

There you can edit the file by adding #39 ..

c) rename the file back to the ending .jar

is not that hard.

ciao stefan

Re: [Rails-devel] 1856 + Waterloo & Saugeen Railway Company

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Hi Stefan,

Without a saved file I cannot really debug this. However, your problem very
much looks like a similar one with 1889, that was found in 1.4.1, and that I
already have fixed.

Erik.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Stefan Filonardi [mailto:jk...@gm...]
> Verzonden: zaterdag 19 februari 2011 12:21
> Aan: 'Development list for Rails : an 18xx game'
> Onderwerp: [Rails-devel] 1856 + Waterloo & Saugeen Railway Company
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I encounter problems with the WSRG ability.
> 
> - Rails announces properly that I can lay #59 on I2 (Kitchener)
> 
> - I click with the mouse on I2, but then there is no offered tile.
> And in the cmd.exe window I can read this*.
> 
> - as an aside, now I can click on every hex in the map and get the offer
to lay
> there a tile.
> 
> With Map correction I can fix it and go on.
> 
> ciao stefan
> *
> (Little errors possible since I used omnipage to read out the cmd.exe
window
> and may have missed something)
> 
> c:\Users\....\rails-1.4.1>jawa -jar rails-1.4.1.jar log4j.configuration =
> log4j.properties Cmdline profile selection = null Profile selection = user
> loading games list from GamesList.xml
> 
> Exception in thread "AWT-EventQuEve-0" jawa.lang.NullPointerException
> at rails.ui.swing.UpgradesPanel.populate(UpgradesPanel.jawa:106)
> at
> rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.updatEvpgradesPanel(ORUIManager.jawa:1729)
> at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.setLocalStep(ORUIManager.jawa:1706)
> at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.hexClicked(ORUIManager.jawa:668)
> at rails.ui.swing.hexmap.HexMap.mouseClicked(HexMap.jawa:550)
> at jawa.awt.ANTEventMulticaster.mouseClicked(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.Component.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source) at
> jawax.swing.JComponent.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.Component.processEvent(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.Container.processEvent(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.Component.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.LightweightDispatcher.retargetMouseEvent(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.LightweightDispatcher.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.LightweightDispatcher.dispatchEvent(known Source) at
> jawa.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.Window.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilters(Unknown Source)
> at jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForFilter(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(Unknown Source)
> at jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source) at
> jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(Unknown Source)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

[Rails-devel] 18GA (was: Tiles and Their Identifiers)

[Scott P. <sc...@re...>]

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 3:14 AM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:

> I don't know if 18GA v2 (from John David Galt) is any different. There also
> seems to be a Cotton Port variant.
>

I know of very few people who have played the v1 rules.  The v2 rules are
available here:
http://www.diogenes.sacramento.ca.us/18AL_18GA.html

Here is the version history listed at the end of the current rules:

 1.0:    November 1996:  Original map includes Jacksonville as a red area in
> the south.  Atlanta is shown as a 40/(10)/80 city with slots for three
> tokens.
> 1.1:    December 1996:  Differences/FAQ section added as well as
> clarification regarding end of game.
> 1.2:    June 1997:    Athens hex moved, minor typos corrected.
> 2.0:    December 1997:  Atlanta changed with special tiles.  Privates can
> now be sold for a maximum of 1.5 times face value.  Starting money changed
> to $1800 divided by the number of players.  Train purchases now limited to
> one train per OR until the first four train is bought.
> 3.0:    May 1998:    Map revised further with number of towns reduced and
> Birmingham changed to Montgomery.  Stock chart also revised and tile mix
> changed.  Private railroads now have minor special abilities.  G&F RR
> replaces the S,A&G.
> 3.1:    June 2002:    Complete rewrite of rules by John David Galt, to
> remove any need for familiarity with other 18xx games.  Many clarifications
> but no real changes (I hope).
>

As for the Cotton Port, the only place I have seen it documented is in Peter
Mumford's redraw on BGG.  Peter had some personal communication with Mark
Derrick to request the rules.  The CP map is available here (only, I
believe).
http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/49530

Mark Derrick's Cotton Port variant of 18GA. It uses the same tile set
> (although the Savannah hex may not be upgraded), privates, companies, etc.
>
> There are only two changes:
> 1. costs for some of the river and wetland hexes have changed.
> 2. the Georgia Railroad now places two free station tokens on launch, in
> Augusta and Charleston. This leaves it with a $40 token and a $100 token.
>
> About this variant:
> Mark Derrick wrote:
> The idea with the Cotton Port variant was to add a little twist to the game
> without changing it too much. At the time, the SAL was one of the slower
> starters. With this, it is better. The reason I added the token slot was
> that I thought it would be confusing to have the GA token spot in Augusta on
> the printed map not used, players may have thought it was reserved for the
> GA, etc. In our experience, the W&A was always the first RR started and the
> GA was about the third. Now it is likely to be second or third. Having an
> extra token spot is not as great as it seems since the RR can still only buy
> one train per turn, and now it has one less token to place in someplace more
> useful like Atlanta or Macon.
>

[Rails-devel] 1856 + Waterloo & Saugeen Railway Company

[Stefan F. <jk...@gm...>]

Hello,

I encounter problems with the WSRG ability.

- Rails announces properly that I can lay #59 on I2 (Kitchener)

- I click with the mouse on I2, but then there is no offered tile. 
And in the cmd.exe window I can read this*.

- as an aside, now I can click on every hex in the map and get the 
offer to lay there a tile.

With Map correction I can fix it and go on.

ciao stefan
*
(Little errors possible since I used omnipage to read out the 
cmd.exe window and may have missed something)

c:\Users\....\rails-1.4.1>jawa —jar rails-1.4.1.jar 
log4j.configuration = log4j.properties
Cmdline profile selection = null
Profile selection = user
loading games list from GamesList.xml

Exception in thread "AWT—EventQuEve-0" jawa.lang.NullPointerException
at rails.ui.swing.UpgradesPanel.populate(UpgradesPanel.jawa:106)
at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.updatEvpgradesPanel(ORUIManager.jawa:1729)
at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.setLocalStep(ORUIManager.jawa:1706)
at rails.ui.swing.ORUIManager.hexClicked(ORUIManager.jawa:668)
at rails.ui.swing.hexmap.HexMap.mouseClicked(HexMap.jawa:550)
at jawa.awt.ANTEventMulticaster.mouseClicked(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.Component.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
at jawax.swing.JComponent.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.Component.processEvent(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.Container.processEvent(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.Component.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.LightweightDispatcher.retargetMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.LightweightDispatcher.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.LightweightDispatcher.dispatchEvent(known Source)
at jawa.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.Window.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilters(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForFilter(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
at jawa.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(Unknown Source)

[Rails-devel] 18GA (was: Tiles and Their Identifiers)

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Just had a quick glance through the 18GA rules I have (the original Mark Derrick version), and it seems to me that almost everything is already configurable in the XML files.
The only exception I see so far is the OCR special ability (free 2-train). For that aspect I think we can reuse the existing SpecialTrainBuy class, which is already used for the 18AL NDY special ability, by setting the deduction to 100%. The only new aspect, which will require some Java programming to fix,  is that the OCR train is reserved (not normally buyable).

I don't know if 18GA v2 (from John David Galt) is any different. There also seems to be a Cotton Port variant.

Erik.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Erik Vos [mailto:eri...@xs...]
> Verzonden: vrijdag 18 februari 2011 22:25
> Aan: 'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'
> Onderwerp: RE: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> 
> Well, I'd say that an unfinished game is better than no game, because
> someone else (like me) might pick it up some day.
> For instance, if you would start with creating the 18GA XML config files
> (except Tiles.xml), as far as you can get, we would already have a subgame
> that's playable, if only by the 1830 rules only. I always start by copying a set of
> existing game files, and then modify these files.
> 
> On the map you could leave out any map tiles that don't yet exist, with a
> comment that a new tile should be inserted there.
> Once we have TileSet.xml and all missing tiles, Tiles.xml can be created with a
> separate utility, so don't worry about that file.
> 
> Erik.
> 
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: ab...@o2... [mailto:ab...@o2...]
> > Verzonden: vrijdag 18 februari 2011 7:15
> > Aan: 'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'
> > Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >
> >     Well. I started implementing 18GA and there are few game specific
> > tiles (Atlanta which includes new map hex and some other cities). But
> > don't fill pressed as I'm not sure if I will indeed finish that 18GA.
> > (And working on those tile made me realize issues with tiles in
> > general.)
> >
> >     Adam Badura

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Well, I'd say that an unfinished game is better than no game, because someone else (like me) might pick it up some day.
For instance, if you would start with creating the 18GA XML config files (except Tiles.xml), as far as you can get, we would already have a subgame that's playable, if only by the 1830 rules only. I always start by copying a set of existing game files, and then modify these files.

On the map you could leave out any map tiles that don't yet exist, with a comment that a new tile should be inserted there.
Once we have TileSet.xml and all missing tiles, Tiles.xml can be created with a separate utility, so don't worry about that file.

Erik.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: ab...@o2... [mailto:ab...@o2...]
> Verzonden: vrijdag 18 februari 2011 7:15
> Aan: 'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'
> Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> 
>     Well. I started implementing 18GA and there are few game specific tiles
> (Atlanta which includes new map hex and some other cities). But don't fill
> pressed as I'm not sure if I will indeed finish that 18GA. (And working on
> those tile made me realize issues with tiles in general.)
> 
>     Adam Badura
> 
> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> From: Erik Vos
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 9:26 PM
> To: 'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> 
> >     How to use that application?
> 
> There are some hints on Marco's web page (see URL below).
> 
> >     In the mean time I did some really basic search in Yahoo 18xx
> > group just to discover that identifying tiles is not a simple task as
> > there is no final reference. And TileDesigner seems to be somehow a
> > standard.
> >     And yet I am unable to use it. After some time I discovered how to
> > add city circles. Maybe I would manage to add track too. But I am
> > unable to save it to anything else than <Tile> XML (no SVG) and even
> > this is done somewhat weirdly.
> 
> You can File|Save the dictionary, but to get tile images you have to use
> File|Export.
> For Rails, set the filename template to 'tile<c0>'. Set the tile size to 170.
> Check or uncheck ID if you want the numeric ID to be visible or not.
> 
> However, there are several  problems with TileDesigner. For one thing, since
> a while all tiles I export this way turn out to be invisible. I'm running a Perl
> script (FixInvisibility.pl, in SVN) to fix that. Then you also have to export the
> tiles as XML and convert the result by class ConvertXML to create the basic
> Tiles.xml for Rails. And if you do that, TileDesigner does NOT store that XML
> in the directory you specify, but in a place that always takes me some time to
> find, as I can't remember it.  Etc. etc.  It's a real hassle.
> 
> I'll be happy to do the tile creation chores for you and everyone else. By now
> the procedure has more or less settled into my spine (as opposed to my
> brain). Luckily, most of the positively-numbered tiles already exist.
> 
> > Also it does not open the TileDictionary.18t which I downloaded
> 
> Strange. In Windows, I associate the .18t extension with TileDesigner.exe,
> and that works fine.
> 
> Erik.
> 
> > from that page.
> >
> >     Adam Badura
> >
> > -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > From: Erik Vos
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:16 PM
> > To: 'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'
> > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >
> > To create tile images and XML description, we use TileDesigner from
> > Marco Rocci (see http://www.rails18xx.it/software.html ).
> > This program has not been maintained for many years, and we don't have
> > the source code, but this program is all we have to create tiles, so
> > we have to live with its limitations and bugs. One limitation is that
> > identifiers must be numeric.
> >
> > The program comes with a tile database, containing 442 tiles, mostly
> > tiles with IDs as defined in Blackwater Station's Tile Encyclopedia.
> > It also contains the preprinted 1830 hexes as tiles with negative
> > numbers. We have continued this approach when new tiles were added
> for
> > other games, initially without much of a system, but more recently we
> > have started to use a more systematic approach using large negative
> > numbers for preprinted tiles. The total tile set now adds up to 559
> > tiles.
> >
> > For the real (positive) tiles we follow the physical tile IDs where
> > possible, adding 1000/2000/3000 in case of duplicate IDs (as did the
> > original Tile Encyclopedia).  The occasional alphanumeric ID has to be
> > replaced by some number; there isn't yet a rule for that.
> >
> > Since some time it is possible to display a different ("external")
> > number than the (internal) tile ID to identify tiles textually in all
> > Rails windows, and from the next release this external ID can be
> > alphanumeric (see
> > 1830 Coalfields, in progress). However, the tile images still display
> > internal IDs only. I suppose the SVG tiles could be tweaked manually
> > to show alphanumeric IDs well, but I haven't looked into that. (BTW
> > the internal IDs are omitted on the preprinted tiles, TileDesigner has
> > a seperate 'export'
> > option for that).
> >
> > Some specific points raised:
> >
> > > >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely
> > > >>> aesthetic, dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very
> > > >>> centre of the tile on maps, they are usually off to one side,
> > > >>> the rotation of the tile on the map helps to match the original board
> aesthetic.
> >
> > The off-centre city (-10) and village (-1) tiles come from the
> > original TileDesigner database, and in most cases we have used these
> > in creating maps without particular attention to correct placement.
> > The simplest solution would be to rotate such tiles,and/ or to replace
> > these by the centered city
> > (-3008) and village (-3009) tiles, that have been created for 18EU in
> > a much later stage.
> >
> > > >>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL?
> > > >> As the IDs are currently required to be numbers.
> >
> > For such cases it was proposed to use six-digit negative numbers. But
> > that proposal came after 18AL and 18EU had been done, and IIRC no
> > decision has yet been taken.
> >
> >
> > Erik.
> >
> > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > > Van: brett lentz [mailto:bre...@gm...]
> > > Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 16:27
> > > Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > > Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > >
> > > Adam -
> > >
> > > If you're interested in refactoring, do it and post the patches.
> > > Reviewing the code will help further the discussion about the
> > > change's merits.
> > >
> > > ---Brett.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:26 AM,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > > >    Maybe it would be a good thing to refactor this things and
> > > > clear it a bit. This would ease development of new games.
> > > >
> > > >    Adam Badura
> > > >
> > > > -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > > > From: Phil Davies
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:12 PM
> > > > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > > > Cc: ab...@o2...
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > > >
> > > > Hmm, a quick peek into the tileset.xml shows I was probably lying
> > > > about 1830...
> > > >
> > > > The thing I described below is true for 1856 since that was
> > > > implemented recently, the older implemented games (AL, EU, 30)
> > > > seem to have a -9xx designation for preprinted offboards and city
> > > > hexes that differ from the standard tiles.  These likely have no
> > > > particular order or structure inherent to them and were just
> > > > incrementally added by whoever did them.  I believe the suggestion
> > > > was that there would be a numeric lookup for games like AL/EU but
> > > > that has never been implemented to date.
> > > >
> > > > I'm working off my assumptions as well here so consider that I may
> > > > well be very wrong, only the person who did the work originally
> > > > (likely several people) could answer but developer activity is
> > > > sporadic around here given most peoples other commitments.
> > > >
> > > > On 16 February 2011 11:00,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > > >>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL?
> > > >> As the IDs are currently required to be numbers.
> > > >>
> > > >>    Adam Badura
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > > >> From: Phil Davies
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:57 AM
> > > >> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > > >> Cc: ab...@o2...
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > > >>
> > > >> 1870 is off centre:
> > http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/650167/1870
> > > >> So is 1830:
> > > >> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89710/1830-railways-
> robber-
> > > barons
> > > >>
> > > >> 1830 is probably the most important one since this was the
> > > >> original template which rails was designed against, only later
> > > >> games have had more centralised tile icons.
> > > >>
> > > >> Overall, does it really matter?  It's clear what the tile is
> > > >> doing which is all that's really important.
> > > >>
> > > >> The 'large' tile ID's are again game prefixes (25001 is a tile
> > > >> for 1825, 30005 is a tile for 1830, 56001 is a tile for 1856 etc.).
> > > >> They are usually assigned an incremental number based on
> > > >> whichever order the developer chose to add them.  For example,
> > > >> 25001 is the London tile in 1825, this has no corresponding
> > > >> physical tile and so cannot be assigned a tile number from any
> > > >> existing tile database, it gets a
> > > >> 25 prefix for coming from 1825 and a 001 likely because it was
> > > >> the first tile of the '25 specific ones Erik chose to add when he
> > > >> did that work.
> > > >>
> > > >> Phil
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 16 February 2011 10:44,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > > >>> No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being
> > > >>> not in the center. Consider 18AL
> > > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al),
> > > >>> 1889
> > > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU
> > > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA
> > > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However
> > 1851
> > > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an
> > exception
> > > >>> here for example.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that
> > > >>> you only use numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use
> > > >>> large IDs for game specific tile. However with no clear
> > > >>> guidelines how those IDs where assigned and which are for which
> game.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Adam Badura
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > > >>> From: Phil Davies
> > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> > > >>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > > >>> Cc: ab...@o2...
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Adam,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion
> > > >>> we had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails
> > > >>> needs tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of
> > > >>> the physical tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking,
> > > >>> a grey tile that is preprinted has a negative number matching
> > > >>> the corresponding physical tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles
> > > >>> that exist only for specific games are prefixed with the games
> > > >>> ID (AL in the case of 18AL etc.)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely
> > > >>> aesthetic, dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very
> > > >>> centre of the tile on maps, they are usually off to one side,
> > > >>> the rotation of the tile on the map helps to match the original board
> aesthetic.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Phil
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > > >>>>    I thought about using IDs as on the
> > > >>>> http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ page.
> > > >>>> I
> > > >>>> think it would be better. However it would require code changes
> > > >>>> to allow non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you
> > > >>>> want it?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and
> > > >>>> cities) and negative/positive IDs.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>    Adam Badura
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > > >>>> From: brett lentz
> > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
> > > >>>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > > >>>> Cc: Adam Badura
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Adam -
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers
> > > >>>> that overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's
> > > >>>> choice in naming and our own implementation details related to
> > > >>>> how Rails handles tile filenames, etc.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile
> > > >>>> names as best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please
> > > >>>> suggest it and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ---Brett.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic
> > > >>>>> identifiers are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but
> > > >>>>> imprinted ones like the referred –3005. But still game
> > > >>>>> specific tiles are “strange”. Like for example AL441.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>     Adam Badura
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> From: Adam Badura
> > > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
> > > >>>>> To: rai...@li...
> > > >>>>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU
> > > >>>>> Berlin Yellow tile has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why
> > > >>>>> not use codes as given on http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make
> > > >>>>> them accessible for larger audience?
> > > >>>>> Also
> > > >>>>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in
> > > >>>>> the code?
> > > >>>>> Why
> > > >>>>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those
> > > >>>>> towns and cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but
> > > >>>>> rather pushed at one side and then randomly (as it seems)
> rotated?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>     Adam Badura
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> ----------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit:
> > > >>>> Intel(R) Parallel Studio
> > > >>>> XE:
> > > >>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > > >>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development
> > > >>>> cycle.
> > > >>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit
> > > >>>> performance.
> > > >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>> Rails-devel mailing list
> > > >>>> Rai...@li...
> > > >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> ---------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > > >>> Parallel Studio XE:
> > > >>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > > >>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development
> > > >>> cycle.
> > > >>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit
> > > >>> performance.
> > > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Rails-devel mailing list
> > > >>> Rai...@li...
> > > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> --
> > > >> --
> > > >> --------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > > >> Parallel Studio XE:
> > > >> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > > >> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > > >> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit
> > > >> performance.
> > > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Rails-devel mailing list
> > > >> Rai...@li...
> > > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > > -------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > > > Parallel Studio XE:
> > > > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > > > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > > > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Rails-devel mailing list
> > > > Rai...@li...
> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > -------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > > Parallel Studio XE:
> > > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rails-devel mailing list
> > > Rai...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > Parallel Studio XE:
> > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > Parallel Studio XE:
> > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

> According to a post on BGG:
> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/508098/errata-tile-upgrade-sheet
> 
> "... John Tamplin has produced a corrected tile upgrade sheet that will
> presumably be included in his future printings of the game.
> (I'll leave the official last word on the subject to him, if he desires.)"
> Posted Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:48 pm

I cannot find that corrected sheet, but I understand that the upgrade from
#57 to #205 and #206 is also missing.
Any other omissions?

Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

[<ab...@o2...>]

    Well. I started implementing 18GA and there are few game specific tiles 
(Atlanta which includes new map hex and some other cities). But don't fill 
pressed as I'm not sure if I will indeed finish that 18GA. (And working on 
those tile made me realize issues with tiles in general.)

    Adam Badura

-----Oryginalna wiadomość----- 
From: Erik Vos
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 9:26 PM
To: 'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers

>     How to use that application?

There are some hints on Marco's web page (see URL below).

>     In the mean time I did some really basic search in Yahoo 18xx group 
> just to
> discover that identifying tiles is not a simple task as there is no final
> reference. And TileDesigner seems to be somehow a standard.
>     And yet I am unable to use it. After some time I discovered how to add 
> city
> circles. Maybe I would manage to add track too. But I am unable to save it 
> to
> anything else than <Tile> XML (no SVG) and even this is done somewhat
> weirdly.

You can File|Save the dictionary, but to get tile images you have to use 
File|Export.
For Rails, set the filename template to 'tile<c0>'. Set the tile size to 
170. Check or uncheck ID if you want the numeric ID to be visible or not.

However, there are several  problems with TileDesigner. For one thing, since 
a while all tiles I export this way turn out to be invisible. I'm running a 
Perl script (FixInvisibility.pl, in SVN) to fix that. Then you also have to 
export the tiles as XML and convert the result by class ConvertXML to create 
the basic Tiles.xml for Rails. And if you do that, TileDesigner does NOT 
store that XML in the directory you specify, but in a place that always 
takes me some time to find, as I can't remember it.  Etc. etc.  It's a real 
hassle.

I'll be happy to do the tile creation chores for you and everyone else. By 
now the procedure has more or less settled into my spine (as opposed to my 
brain). Luckily, most of the positively-numbered tiles already exist.

> Also it does not open the TileDictionary.18t which I downloaded

Strange. In Windows, I associate the .18t extension with TileDesigner.exe, 
and that works fine.

Erik.

> from that page.
>
>     Adam Badura
>
> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> From: Erik Vos
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:16 PM
> To: 'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
>
> To create tile images and XML description, we use TileDesigner from Marco
> Rocci (see http://www.rails18xx.it/software.html ).
> This program has not been maintained for many years, and we don't have
> the source code, but this program is all we have to create tiles, so we 
> have to
> live with its limitations and bugs. One limitation is that identifiers 
> must be
> numeric.
>
> The program comes with a tile database, containing 442 tiles, mostly tiles 
> with
> IDs as defined in Blackwater Station's Tile Encyclopedia. It also contains 
> the
> preprinted 1830 hexes as tiles with negative numbers. We have continued
> this approach when new tiles were added for other games, initially without
> much of a system, but more recently we have started to use a more
> systematic approach using large negative numbers for preprinted tiles. The
> total tile set now adds up to 559 tiles.
>
> For the real (positive) tiles we follow the physical tile IDs where 
> possible,
> adding 1000/2000/3000 in case of duplicate IDs (as did the original Tile
> Encyclopedia).  The occasional alphanumeric ID has to be replaced by some
> number; there isn't yet a rule for that.
>
> Since some time it is possible to display a different ("external") number 
> than
> the (internal) tile ID to identify tiles textually in all Rails windows, 
> and from
> the next release this external ID can be alphanumeric (see
> 1830 Coalfields, in progress). However, the tile images still display 
> internal IDs
> only. I suppose the SVG tiles could be tweaked manually to show
> alphanumeric IDs well, but I haven't looked into that. (BTW the internal 
> IDs
> are omitted on the preprinted tiles, TileDesigner has a seperate 'export'
> option for that).
>
> Some specific points raised:
>
> > >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
> > >>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the
> > >>> tile on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of
> > >>> the tile on the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.
>
> The off-centre city (-10) and village (-1) tiles come from the original
> TileDesigner database, and in most cases we have used these in creating
> maps without particular attention to correct placement. The simplest 
> solution
> would be to rotate such tiles,and/ or to replace these by the centered 
> city
> (-3008) and village (-3009) tiles, that have been created for 18EU in a 
> much
> later stage.
>
> > >>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As
> > >> the IDs are currently required to be numbers.
>
> For such cases it was proposed to use six-digit negative numbers. But that
> proposal came after 18AL and 18EU had been done, and IIRC no decision has
> yet been taken.
>
>
> Erik.
>
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: brett lentz [mailto:bre...@gm...]
> > Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 16:27
> > Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> >
> > Adam -
> >
> > If you're interested in refactoring, do it and post the patches.
> > Reviewing the code will help further the discussion about the change's
> > merits.
> >
> > ---Brett.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:26 AM,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > >    Maybe it would be a good thing to refactor this things and clear
> > > it a bit. This would ease development of new games.
> > >
> > >    Adam Badura
> > >
> > > -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > > From: Phil Davies
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:12 PM
> > > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > > Cc: ab...@o2...
> > > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > >
> > > Hmm, a quick peek into the tileset.xml shows I was probably lying
> > > about 1830...
> > >
> > > The thing I described below is true for 1856 since that was
> > > implemented recently, the older implemented games (AL, EU, 30) seem
> > > to have a -9xx designation for preprinted offboards and city hexes
> > > that differ from the standard tiles.  These likely have no
> > > particular order or structure inherent to them and were just
> > > incrementally added by whoever did them.  I believe the suggestion
> > > was that there would be a numeric lookup for games like AL/EU but
> > > that has never been implemented to date.
> > >
> > > I'm working off my assumptions as well here so consider that I may
> > > well be very wrong, only the person who did the work originally
> > > (likely several people) could answer but developer activity is
> > > sporadic around here given most peoples other commitments.
> > >
> > > On 16 February 2011 11:00,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > >>    OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As
> > >> the IDs are currently required to be numbers.
> > >>
> > >>    Adam Badura
> > >>
> > >> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > >> From: Phil Davies
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:57 AM
> > >> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > >> Cc: ab...@o2...
> > >> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > >>
> > >> 1870 is off centre:
> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/650167/1870
> > >> So is 1830:
> > >> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89710/1830-railways-robber-
> > barons
> > >>
> > >> 1830 is probably the most important one since this was the original
> > >> template which rails was designed against, only later games have
> > >> had more centralised tile icons.
> > >>
> > >> Overall, does it really matter?  It's clear what the tile is doing
> > >> which is all that's really important.
> > >>
> > >> The 'large' tile ID's are again game prefixes (25001 is a tile for
> > >> 1825, 30005 is a tile for 1830, 56001 is a tile for 1856 etc.).
> > >> They are usually assigned an incremental number based on whichever
> > >> order the developer chose to add them.  For example, 25001 is the
> > >> London tile in 1825, this has no corresponding physical tile and so
> > >> cannot be assigned a tile number from any existing tile database,
> > >> it gets a
> > >> 25 prefix for coming from 1825 and a 001 likely because it was the
> > >> first tile of the '25 specific ones Erik chose to add when he did
> > >> that work.
> > >>
> > >> Phil
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 16 February 2011 10:44,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > >>> No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being not
> > >>> in the center. Consider 18AL
> > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al),
> > >>> 1889
> > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU
> > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA
> > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However
> 1851
> > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an
> exception
> > >>> here for example.
> > >>>
> > >>> As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that
> > >>> you only use numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use
> > >>> large IDs for game specific tile. However with no clear guidelines
> > >>> how those IDs where assigned and which are for which game.
> > >>>
> > >>> Adam Badura
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > >>> From: Phil Davies
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM
> > >>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > >>> Cc: ab...@o2...
> > >>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > >>>
> > >>> Adam,
> > >>>
> > >>> I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion
> > >>> we had on this a while ago.  One of the key issues is that rails
> > >>> needs tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the
> > >>> physical tiles that exist in the game.  Generally speaking, a grey
> > >>> tile that is preprinted has a negative number matching the
> > >>> corresponding physical tile if one such tile exists.  Tiles that
> > >>> exist only for specific games are prefixed with the games ID (AL
> > >>> in the case of 18AL etc.)
> > >>>
> > >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic,
> > >>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the
> > >>> tile on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of
> > >>> the tile on the map helps to match the original board aesthetic.
> > >>>
> > >>> Phil
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 16 February 2011 07:22,  <ab...@o2...> wrote:
> > >>>>    I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/
> > >>>> page.
> > >>>> I
> > >>>> think it would be better. However it would require code changes
> > >>>> to allow non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want 
> > >>>> it?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>    Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and
> > >>>> cities) and negative/positive IDs.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>    Adam Badura
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość-----
> > >>>> From: brett lentz
> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM
> > >>>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > >>>> Cc: Adam Badura
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Adam -
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Looks like you hit on the issue.  There are a few tile numbers
> > >>>> that overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's
> > >>>> choice in naming and our own implementation details related to
> > >>>> how Rails handles tile filenames, etc.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile
> > >>>> names as best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please
> > >>>> suggest it and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ---Brett.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>     After further investigation it seems that the problematic
> > >>>>> identifiers are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but
> > >>>>> imprinted ones like the referred –3005. But still game specific
> > >>>>> tiles are “strange”. Like for example AL441.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     Adam Badura
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> From: Adam Badura
> > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM
> > >>>>> To: rai...@li...
> > >>>>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin
> > >>>>> Yellow tile has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use
> > >>>>> codes as given on http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them
> > >>>>> accessible for larger audience?
> > >>>>> Also
> > >>>>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in
> > >>>>> the code?
> > >>>>> Why
> > >>>>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those
> > >>>>> towns and cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but
> > >>>>> rather pushed at one side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>     Adam Badura
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> ----------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > >>>> Parallel Studio
> > >>>> XE:
> > >>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > >>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development 
> > >>>> cycle.
> > >>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit
> > >>>> performance.
> > >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Rails-devel mailing list
> > >>>> Rai...@li...
> > >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> --
> > >>> ---------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > >>> Parallel Studio XE:
> > >>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > >>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development 
> > >>> cycle.
> > >>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit 
> > >>> performance.
> > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Rails-devel mailing list
> > >>> Rai...@li...
> > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> --
> > >> --------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > >> Parallel Studio XE:
> > >> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > >> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > >> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit 
> > >> performance.
> > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Rails-devel mailing list
> > >> Rai...@li...
> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > -------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > > Parallel Studio XE:
> > > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rails-devel mailing list
> > > Rai...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> > Parallel Studio XE:
> > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel 

Re: [Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug

[John A. T. <ja...@ja...>]

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:

> The upgrade chart in my copy of the 1889 rules (version 1.0c) doesn't
> specify #39 as a valid upgrade for #28 and #29.  Is that an error?
>

Yes.

-- 
John A. Tamplin

Re: [Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug

[Stefan F. <jk...@gm...>]

Hello,

Am 17.02.2011 23:43, schrieb Erik Vos:
> The upgrade chart in my copy of the 1889 rules (version 1.0c) doesn't
> specify #39 as a valid upgrade for #28 and #29.  Is that an error?

I would say yes but haven't read the whole rules to see if there is 
an unlikely exception, and no upgrade path leads to #39 in the tile 
manifest (Rules, v1.0c dated 12 July 2006):

http://www.18xx.net/tiles/e028.htm
http://www.18xx.net/tiles/e029.htm


ciao stefan

PS
According to a post on BGG:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/508098/errata-tile-upgrade-sheet

"... John Tamplin has produced a corrected tile upgrade sheet that 
will presumably be included in his future printings of the game. 
(I'll leave the official last word on the subject to him, if he 
desires.)"
Posted Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:48 pm

Re: [Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

OK, I have fixed that omission.

Erik. 

 

Van: John A. Tamplin [mailto:ja...@ja...] 
Verzonden: donderdag 17 februari 2011 23:50
Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
CC: Erik Vos
Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug

 

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:

The upgrade chart in my copy of the 1889 rules (version 1.0c) doesn't
specify #39 as a valid upgrade for #28 and #29.  Is that an error?

 

Yes.


-- 
John A. Tamplin

Re: [Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

The upgrade chart in my copy of the 1889 rules (version 1.0c) doesn't
specify #39 as a valid upgrade for #28 and #29.  Is that an error?

Erik.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Justin Rebelo [mailto:jus...@gm...]
> Verzonden: donderdag 17 februari 2011 22:58
> Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug
> 
> Stefan, if you load this up you should find that hex F5 demonstrates the
bug.
> 
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:55 PM, Justin Rebelo <jus...@gm...>
> wrote:
> > Oh, I actually had assumed that rails wasn't enforcing those types of
> > rules in any game. I will have a look and see if that's it.
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Stefan Filonardi <jk...@gm...> wrote:
> >> Hello Justin,
> >>
> >> Am 17.02.2011 21:39, schrieb Justin Rebelo:
> >>> I found in 1.4.1 during an 1889 game that I was unable to upgrade a
> >>> tile that seems like a perfectly legal upgrade. It was either a tile
> >>> #28 or #29 which should upgrade to a #39 but this was not offered as
> >>> an option. I imagine this is a really simple thing for developers to
> >>> verify, but if you need a save file, I can provide one.
> >>
> >> Are you sure that the problem is not Rule 6.2 "Upgrading Tiles"?
> >> ".... at least one new track on the new tile must form part of a
> >> legal route of the company ...."
> >>
> >> There is only one new track part going from 28/29 to 39.
> >>
> >> If you are coming from the "united" part of the track, the new track
> >> isn't automatically part of a legal route for the building company.
> >>
> >> Hoping to not have added confusion,
> >> ciao stefan
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> --------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R)
> >> Parallel Studio XE:
> >> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> >> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> >> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Rails-devel mailing list
> >> Rai...@li...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >>
> >

Re: [Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug

[Stefan F. <jk...@gm...>]

Hello Justin,

Am 17.02.2011 22:57, schrieb Justin Rebelo:
> Stefan, if you load this up you should find that hex F5
> demonstrates the bug.

I am surely not an authoritative source on rails or 18xx, so with a 
grain of salt:

Yes I think it is a bug. If you go on the tile #29 on F5 (or any 
other #28/29 on the map), you will see that there is not the option 
to upgrade to #39. The same error can be found in the Tile Manifest 
in the rules.

ciao stefan

PS
And I have no idea if the program does check the 
permissive/semi-permissive/restrictive thing.

Re: [Rails-devel] Possible 1889 tile promotion bug

[Justin R. <jus...@gm...>]

Stefan, if you load this up you should find that hex F5 demonstrates the bug.

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:55 PM, Justin Rebelo <jus...@gm...> wrote:
> Oh, I actually had assumed that rails wasn't enforcing those types of
> rules in any game. I will have a look and see if that's it.
>
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Stefan Filonardi <jk...@gm...> wrote:
>> Hello Justin,
>>
>> Am 17.02.2011 21:39, schrieb Justin Rebelo:
>>> I found in 1.4.1 during an 1889 game that I was unable to upgrade
>>> a tile that seems like a perfectly legal upgrade. It was either a
>>> tile #28 or #29 which should upgrade to a #39 but this was not
>>> offered as an option. I imagine this is a really simple thing for
>>> developers to verify, but if you need a save file, I can provide
>>> one.
>>
>> Are you sure that the problem is not Rule 6.2 "Upgrading Tiles"?
>> ".... at least one new track on the new tile must form part of a
>> legal route of the company ...."
>>
>> There is only one new track part going from 28/29 to 39.
>>
>> If you are coming from the "united" part of the track, the new track
>> isn't automatically part of a legal route for the building company.
>>
>> Hoping to not have added confusion,
>> ciao stefan
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>