New feature request
System-wide PC Audio Equalizer and Effects app for Windows 7 to 11
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I'm looking forward to it. Thank you for your consideration. =)
I've made a first version of the upmix interface but without a phase shift. And there's a good reason for this. After thorough investigation a phase shift isn't used to improve the sound. It's used to decode an encoded multichannel stereo signal into it's original multichannel output. After decoding there are losses btw. Encoding multiple channels to 2 channels was a way to compress the sound data. Nowadays sending (streaming, etc) multiple channels isn't an issue any longer. But in the days of early game consoles encoding was a good trick. That's what Dogway is providing when running an emulator of these game consoles.
However, I still tried several phase shifts, just to listen if there any good. Well, they aren't. Besides the obvious gain changes due to the phase shift audio techniques (filters or convolution) the sound doesn't get any better. I was hoping for some spaciousness. All I got was the gain changes which add bass and lessened the treble, a sound change but nothing to do with the phase shift.
Although the above is a bit disappointing the new upmix interface does have its benefits over the upmix knob on the Peace effects panel. You're now able to precisely select the upmix including 5.1 to 7.1 as you requested. And as a bonus I've added a way to move the listening point in the room (in meters and feet) to another position. This moving can also be used to change the sound space. But I'm not sure if that is useful.
If you want to try it, download the Peace.exe file and put it in c:\program files\equalizerapo\config, overwriting the existing file.
Thank you for not forgetting to consider this.
new upmix panel is very intuitive. I also tried manually adjusting the phase and didn't find much of an advantage. The biggest thing that worked (positively, negatively) was the delay.
But that doesn't make some sense either. I remember last year looking at files measured by Auro3D all channels with timing references on (the distance between impulses, the timing is accurate) to users in different communities.
So I thought there might be some delay differences across all channels, but no. All channels were aligned with the same timing.
So I remember tentatively stopping looking for clues about it.
It seems pretty interesting to be able to touch positioning with a slight delay adjustment.
Because it's a pleasure to be able to control multiple adjustment parameters directly to the user. It would be nice if those elements were added to these Easter Egg.
It took some while before I was finished with this new interface. I'm glad you like it. Tiny delays can have some dramatic effects on the sound. That's what the Stereo widening and expander knobs do. For instance, I found this interesting wiki.
In the search for sound improvements when having a 5.1 or 7.1 stream or when having an upmixed stereo sound, I wasn't able to figure out what possible sound improvements could be applied and how Equalizer APO features could be used (besides convolution). I'm interested how Dolby does this. And there is of course the Surround sound interface in Peace based on Alex Gromov's work. But I wish I could make the upmix interface a bit more substantial with some easy sound improvement options. And maybe that includes what you are talking about, which is basically a clever downmix to headphones. On the other hand HeSuVi is the perfect app for this.
I'm not sure if you're asking for any new knobs, etc. If so, what are these precisely?
Easter Egg, mmm. A bit late for that. Once I've made "break out" (the game) in a commercial app as an Easter Egg. They loved it.
I'm not sure if you're asking for any new knobs, etc. If so, what are these precisely?
Easter Egg, mmm. A bit late for that. Once I've made "break out" (the game) in a commercial app as an Easter Egg. They loved it.
:: Oh I mean, new function, new things. Easter was just a metaphor. =)
It's already such a great and convenient program, but it's fun to watch it whenever something new is added. It's interesting. Of course, I'm grateful.
Other than this, are there any new features or tabs you're planning to add to your peace?
Thought so :)
For the upcoming release the upmix panel will be the main feature. In principle it's more a bug fix release and some minor improvements. For a release after the upcoming I want to add hotkey selection for more stuff like bass, treble and balance. But besides that I don't have any major changes planned. Although I still want to add a VST plugins interface. But this one is though to implement. I am thinking of adding reverbs, just for fun but they aren't very useful. Well, thinking about new features, I want to make a decent import interface so users have more control over imports.
I do have collected a long list of possible features to implement, mostly small ones and some not very useful or in high demand.
hi there, It suddenly came to my mind today. Would you consider adding a mid/side EQ? APO's channel command implementing this is simple.
Of course I'll consider your request but there's one catch. The 2 filters must differ to have an actual audio effect. To explain lets consider when not using any filter. There result mathematically of your Equalizer APO commands is:
As you can see mathematically things are cancelling out resulting in simply L and R. Notice things change when using 2 different filters.
To verify I have tried this and found not actual change in the sound when having no filters. And with the same 2 filters it's basically like having 1 filter on L and R.
Maybe something i missing.
I'll make a channel again later
Okay 😃
hi there, I haven't retested the channel implementation yet, but it suddenly hit me.
Wouldn't the final result be the same as L and R without any filter?
https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/what-is-midside-processing.html
It is to separate the overlapping channels through the reverse phase, and if you use the same filter for the separated mid and side, of course, I think that's right.
But isn't the reason why you usually use the mid side separately, or when you want to do EQ only for the mid or side information?
Of course, I don't write midside EQ either. I make most of them myself, except for your peace, and the Config window gets a bit messy to control that kind of channel mixing within APO. Too many memo or command things =(
And it also depends if the phase inversion works by Equalizer APO commands as it suppose to work. In principle the minus sign in the copy: command is about inverting the sample values, I think. But in principle this is a phase inversion when talking about analogue signal (frequencies) after the DAC.
Knowing what we think of it, a midside interface should have 4 knobs:
- gain and frequency for mid filter
- gain and frequency for side filter
and an on/off switch although this isn't strictly necessary. When having the exactly same gain and frequency values for both filters this midside interface shouldn't produce any Equalizer APO commands as it does nothing to the audio.
Yep 😃
Idea for the Configuration Editor: Create ones own interface on the spot with knobs, sliders and switches, thus combining commands into a user made interface which becomes part of the editor.
yes. you're right.Channel's - command seems a little unclear.
Is this possible? Secondary customization to create customizable user-defined? lol
Probably. It would be the most powerful update of this editor. This could also be that editor plugins can be made by users which others then use. This would lift off the editor to a few levels higher.
omg. It's going to be huge.
If you make it, would you integrate it into the peace or individually?
Its name would be the "miracle" that succeeded "peace". lol
Last edit: dingdong3 2024-06-13
To be honest it should be a main future of Peace 2.0. I have been thinking a lot about this version over the years. It's a bit difficult to introduce a major change in the working of the interfaces without losing all easy Peace 1.x features. And it's a huge task knowing that Peace has already 30,000 program code lines. But there benefits are (amongst others):
1. The interfaces will look modern, not old fashioned like now.
2. A user can choose what to have on an audio device. Need an equalizer, put an equalizer on it, need upmixing, put the upmix interface on it, etc.
3. Part of the current automation can be made redundant. Presets (Peace configurations) can be activated and deactivated from the presets list for instance.
4. The above 1. and 2. and also mean that improved themes should be made possible and interface plugins feature should be made so users can indeed make their own interfaces which can be used as Peace 2.0 plugins.
The above probably excites you even further 😃 I'm not sure if I will be able to pull this huge task off.
You know what? I'm not a big drinker, but hearing your goals makes me drunk. lol
The really good news is
That's what a lot of people have been asking for!!!! can customize the features you want and build on them as you go.
It's exciting to hear!!! Are you not active in communities like ASR or Headfi?
It would be great to do a big beta in those communities and see how they react.
Yep!
Not really. I'm not a HIFI geek. Just somebody who happens to build a popular app and who has gained some knowledge over the years. But you're absolutely right. It's one of the places for reactions/feedback of beta versions.
I'm looking forward to it. I'm curious about peace, which might be a different story, and the scope and limits of what you can create.
Is it exactly leveraging features within the APO? Or can you add other features like external VSTs?
I ask this because you have experience and knowledge with VSTs and it would be amazing if you could add them (like the harmonic VST you answered a few days ago).
Sorry, you have opened a can of worms 😃 but here goes.
(Btw. I edited this post.)
For now the only way to make a VST plugin part of a Peace configuration is to copy the actual Equalizer APO command of the VST plugin to the Peace Command window. This means that a user of Equalizer APO does need to know that its audio manipulation engine is text command driven. Some think that dialing a knob on a VST plugin interface in the Configuration Editor the actual plugin is be manipulated but a new command is create which the audio engine reads and processes.
Knowing the above there are a few nasty things.
- The main part is that not all plugins work. That's especially for paid ones not nice.
- Also, it seems that VST3 plugins don't work. I haven't confirmed this but it could.
- And how VST plugins work must be explained to the Peace user. But we all know, we don't like to read manuals.
- And then there's the matter of the (second) plugin instantiated by the audio engine can't always find its license. That's perfectly explainable but usually sets the plugin in demo mode as where the plugin in the Configuration Editor is in full user mode, creating major confusion, well unless the manual is read ...
- Peace is program in Autoit for which it seems impossible to show the interface of the plugin. I need to create a workaround by using C++.
- And lastly, most used plugins are for EQ-ing. This is the strong part of Peace. That's why most Peace users don't need plugins in the first place.
So the above point why I don't provide (yet) a VST plugin interface in Peace. I do play around of creating a list of effects which uses plugins know to work. But the interfaces I will create myself so I have full internal control over the workings of these VST plugins. One of those can be that Harmonic VST plugin.
Last edit: Peter Verbeek 2024-06-13
Yes. As far as I know, VST3 does, and it's also not very compatible with VSTs that do heavy math, so I used to use foobar when I had a lot of VSTs.
lol!!!
This is a different story, but is it possible to change the appearance of the EQ tabs when opening up the possibilities towards customization?
https://www.minidsp.com/images/appnotes/headphone-eq-ears-rew/headphone-eq-parametric-filters-dc.png
something like Minidsp console or REW things.
This is another story, but you may recall that I suggested some details about upmixes before.
When messuring an upmix like Auro3D, I noticed that increasing the intensity or volume of the Auro app added some artificial reverb to all channels except the center channel.
Of course, it has some limitations when you go deeper (speakers, headphones, earphones) and it doesn't give the feeling of spaciousness, but a little bit of reverb can add flavor.
Is it possible to have a short duration reverb impulse in peace, and have it applied to a specific channel, with the reverb also applied when the user wants it?
When you're talking about the features as presented in your image it seems that this is exactly what you can do on the Peace graph window. By checking some checkboxes below you can drag the handle of a EQ slider to another gain and/or frequency. And by pressing the Ctrl key the Q can be influenced too. All this provides an alternative way to do EQ-ing, more graph based.
Perhaps this reverb is caused by introducing some delays between the channels or perhaps some clever DSP-ing. But when using delay they may have decided not to include the center channel for some reason. Btw. The new Peace upmix panel has now also the possibility to positioning the speakers in their distances, without upmixing so when having an actual 5.1 or 7.1 signal.
I noticed that when making the first version of the Peace effects panel hence the knobs "Stereo widening" and "Stereo expander". However these aren't really reverbs lke you're talking about. For this I considered to create a special reverb panel. Unfortunately, I don't know how to create reverb convolution (impulse response) files on the fly according the user input by a reverb rotary knob. Of course the alternative is to present the user with a list of possible reverbs which can then be applied per speaker. This is possible by using a proper VST reverb plugin which need to be failproof of course. This is again a bit scary knowing the troubles with VST plugins but I think it can work without issues.
Yes. The upmixers on the market are clever
And the messurements I've seen from people I know all have the same timing relative to the reference timing (no delay due to adding reverb).
I've said this before, but it was a bit of a surprise. I was expecting an upmixer like auro3d to weight the delay per channel when using multichannel for stereo, but it was all equal delay.
wider is also fine. For most users, this is fine.
I've seen a lot of stuff on github about artificial reverb (of course I don't program and don't understand it at all).
But since we're not mixing or producing, we're just listeners, normal people, we probably don't need a detailed and large amount of reverb.
Even if it's very low intensity, just the addition of it will make some people say "the sense of space is expanded!" (= the effect of hyperbasis).
So we can expect Peace 2.0 around Christmas time then :D
That would be something, wouldn't it 😃 But I'm afraid I have to disappoint you. I hope I have at least a beta of some sort in the future.