linuxconsole-dev

Re: Xephyr instead of Xnest

[James v. Z. <ja...@dv...>]

I tend to agree with Aivils. Any nested X server is going to be doubling
up on certain resources. good multi console support in X is basically
there for me, with one intermittent exception; use of text/framebuffer
consoles and unstable console switching, with frambuffers and/or text
consoles becoming corrupted: It's not just int10h video calls, I've
tried using noint10 on all servers and then int10 on primary console but
noint10 on secondaries, there are a few X patches I have not tried yet,
but for one machine out of three (?), the console instability is an
issue; faketty and ruby both. I use nVidia binary drivers and all nV
cards. Apart from this it is rock solid. I believe 2.6.9-vz11 ruby
patched kernel was stable and this problem was resolved: I had no
machines that displayed this console instability that I recall, but
later kernels it has reappeared.

The nested solution, for me, although an excellent workaround for
machines that will not perform multi-X stably for driver or other
reasons, will play the role of non-preferred option first because
multi-X is more feature full than nested-X and secondly because Xnest in
it's stock form has demonstrated itself to be unstable for the entire
time I've used it. Perhaps multiXnest has fixed this. I don't see any
way around the increased resource requirements (?) however.

Xephyr sounds like a good replacement for Xnest and if the proposed
features were applied, that would be an excellent one that I would be
keen to use. However, I suspect for multi-console implementations, it
will still play second place to ruby/faketty/evdev multi-X.

The "ideal" solution I feel would provide multiple text/framebuffer
consoles alongside multiple X. For now that is probably asking a bit
much, and I'll settle for a single text console that is never corrupted.

J

Under vmware DirectX hardware accelleration is like programmers toy
> but not a practical value.

But improving with 5.5?

On Wed, 2005-11-30 at 17:40, Aivils Stoss wrote:
> On Otrdiena, 29. Novembris 2005 19:32, Michael Pardee wrote:
> > > Having mouse and keyboards specified makes Xephyr as good as
> > > multiXnest for us, but once again we want to move to Xephyr for the
> > > future.
> >
> > Xephyr does have other advantages over Xnest - server side support for
> > modern X extensions like XRender, XRandr, XDamage etc.
> >
> > > What kind of work (or costs) would be involved to:
> > > 1. use the xv extension for video overlays
> > > 2. handle the keyboard leds properly
> > > 3. use nvidia 3d hardware excelleration
> >
> > (1) I think would be possible and *maybe* not that hard. Would need more
> > investigation.
> > (2) Could very likely be fairly trivial with the above evdev additions.
> > (3) This is probably extremely difficult and maybe not even possible at
> > all. Though that said vmware can do direct3d accel via h/w afaik on
> > Linux so there is likely a way. Needs much more thought though. You are
> > likely looking at months rather than weeks of work here.
> >
> > > If those tasks are just about impossible in the next year, moving to
> > > Xephyr doesn't help all that much, except maybe Xephyr is faster than
> > > xnest.
> >
> > Depending on the underlying card and X operation Xephyr likely does out
> > perform Xnest though I've never ran any figures on this.
> 
> 	In my opinition in far future better is having pointer and keyboard for
> each X screen. X server screen as separate workstation from view point
> of end user already solve all troubles notified above. Most of X device
> drivers support xv, OpenGL hardware acceleration for each screen.
> 	One trouble left - X authentification.
> 
> 	In case when xv or 3d hardware accelleration goes via another X emulator
> Xnest or Xephyr , then it becames slower. Anybody cant test it with
> windows games via Wine or WineX, where emulator calls host openGL only.
> Under vmware DirectX hardware accelleration is like programmers toy
> but not a practical value.
> 
> Aivils
> 
> 
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Re: Xephyr instead of Xnest

[Daniel W. <da...@in...>]

> 
>>	In my opinition in far future better is having
>>pointer and keyboard for
>>each X screen. X server screen as separate
>>workstation from view point
>>of end user already solve all troubles notified
>>above. 
> 
> 
> I agree with that completely.
> 

That also is our opinion here at the University/C3SL. But we need 
something stable as soon as possible because the system we developed for 
the public schools is shipping in a month or so. That's why we decided 
to adapt Xnest and are now working on Xephyr.

But modifying X to directly support multiple users is definitively in 
our plans as means of further development of the multiterminal solution. 
It just will take more time than we can afford right now.
If someone wants to do it, we'll appreciate !-)

Greetings,
Daniel

Re: Xephyr instead of Xnest

[Hugo V. <hvw...@ya...>]

--- Aivils Stoss <ai...@un...> wrote:

> On Otrdiena, 29. Novembris 2005 19:32, Michael
> Pardee wrote:

<snip>

> 
> 	In my opinition in far future better is having
> pointer and keyboard for
> each X screen. X server screen as separate
> workstation from view point
> of end user already solve all troubles notified
> above. 

I agree with that completely.


Most of X device
> drivers support xv, OpenGL hardware acceleration for
> each screen.
> 	One trouble left - X authentification.
> 
> 	In case when xv or 3d hardware accelleration goes
> via another X emulator
> Xnest or Xephyr , then it becames slower. Anybody
> cant test it with
> windows games via Wine or WineX, where emulator
> calls host openGL only.
> Under vmware DirectX hardware accelleration is like
> programmers toy
> but not a practical value.
> 



	
		
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Re: Xephyr instead of Xnest

[Aivils S. <ai...@un...>]

On Otrdiena, 29. Novembris 2005 19:32, Michael Pardee wrote:
> > Having mouse and keyboards specified makes Xephyr as good as
> > multiXnest for us, but once again we want to move to Xephyr for the
> > future.
>
> Xephyr does have other advantages over Xnest - server side support for
> modern X extensions like XRender, XRandr, XDamage etc.
>
> > What kind of work (or costs) would be involved to:
> > 1. use the xv extension for video overlays
> > 2. handle the keyboard leds properly
> > 3. use nvidia 3d hardware excelleration
>
> (1) I think would be possible and *maybe* not that hard. Would need more
> investigation.
> (2) Could very likely be fairly trivial with the above evdev additions.
> (3) This is probably extremely difficult and maybe not even possible at
> all. Though that said vmware can do direct3d accel via h/w afaik on
> Linux so there is likely a way. Needs much more thought though. You are
> likely looking at months rather than weeks of work here.
>
> > If those tasks are just about impossible in the next year, moving to
> > Xephyr doesn't help all that much, except maybe Xephyr is faster than
> > xnest.
>
> Depending on the underlying card and X operation Xephyr likely does out
> perform Xnest though I've never ran any figures on this.

	In my opinition in far future better is having pointer and keyboard for
each X screen. X server screen as separate workstation from view point
of end user already solve all troubles notified above. Most of X device
drivers support xv, OpenGL hardware acceleration for each screen.
	One trouble left - X authentification.

	In case when xv or 3d hardware accelleration goes via another X emulator
Xnest or Xephyr , then it becames slower. Anybody cant test it with
windows games via Wine or WineX, where emulator calls host openGL only.
Under vmware DirectX hardware accelleration is like programmers toy
but not a practical value.

Aivils

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Re: Xephyr instead of Xnest

[Ander C. de O. <an...@c3...>]

Michael Pardee wrote:
> We have been experimenting with multiXnest, and it works, but has a
> few minor shortcomings. (I want to stress that we are extremely
> grateful to Ander for creating multiXnest, the functionality it
> provides is amazing and VERY useful.)
 >
> ...
 >
> 4. some screensavers crash it (easy workaround -- disable fancy screensavers!)
> 5. no keyboard led support (this one is important for commercial applications)
Actually, there is an updated version of multiXnest in the webstie with 
suport for leds. Aparently, the Scroll Lock led does not work.

> So multiXnest is fine for now, but looking to the future we should
> probably be working with Xephyr, (
> http://cvs.freedesktop.org/xserver/xserver/hw/kdrive/ephyr/README?view=markup
> )
> to run nested X servers.
We're started working with Xephyr. As soon as we have something useful, 
we'll post it here.

Ander

Xephyr instead of Xnest

[Michael P. <lin...@gr...>]

We have been experimenting with multiXnest, and it works, but has a
few minor shortcomings. (I want to stress that we are extremely
grateful to Ander for creating multiXnest, the functionality it
provides is amazing and VERY useful.)
1. Xnest is old and unmaintained, and will probably not have any
future enhancements unless someone from the multi-user community makes
them.
2. it is slower than a normal x server ( using the nv driver it is
unbearably slow, but with the nvidia driver speed is good)
3. no XV support, so even playing videos from web sites with
realplayer really taxes the CPU
4. some screensavers crash it (easy workaround -- disable fancy screensaver=
s!)
5. no keyboard led support (this one is important for commercial applicatio=
ns)

So multiXnest is fine for now, but looking to the future we should
probably be working with Xephyr, (
http://cvs.freedesktop.org/xserver/xserver/hw/kdrive/ephyr/README?view=3Dma=
rkup
)
to run nested X servers.  It is newer and maintained (#1), is faster
(#2), could have xv and keyboard led support possibly added (#3,4)
Unfortunately , Xephyr doesn't support different pointers and
keyboards right now, and the maintainer said that it would take about
a week of work, to the tune of $4000.
We honestly don't sell enough multi-user machines to make $4000 worth
it, but we may be willing to pay up to $1000 to have Xephyr instead of
multiXnest for the advantages listed above in the long term.  Are
there any other companies/organizations that would be willing to
contribute to the cost of having Matthew Allum (the official
maintainer) work on Xephyr to make it suitable for multi-user?  Or,
are there some coders out there who could help modify Xephyr, maybe
with a little free or paid help from Matthew?

If someone has some ideas and some time, we have a $1000 maximum
budget to work with. If we could get Xephyr with evdev keyboard and
mouse support AND the keyboard leds working properly on an Ubuntu
system, we would be happy.  If we could get xv support in the next few
months, we would be extremely happy.  Of course this work is going to
benefit everyone including non-multi-users, and would have to be under
an MIT license if we want changes integrated into the main branch.

Any thoughts?  Below is an email dialog between Matthew Allum and me.

Update on nvidia crashing: we have shipped a multi-user machine to
nvidia for testing.  There is hope that the next nvidia release due
out very soon will fix things.


Thanks,
Mike
--
Michael Pardee
1-888-323-1742
Open Sense Solutions LLC
http://opensensesolutions.com



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthew Allum <ma...@op...>
Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:10 AM
Subject: Re: Xephyr mouse and vt options
To: Open Sense Solutions <in...@op...>
Cc: Ander Conselvan de Oliveira <ac...@in...>


Hi;

On Mon, 2005-11-28 at 18:53 -0600, Open Sense Solutions wrote:
> We are experimenting with Xephyr and the -mouse and vtXX options are
> not working as far as we can tell.  They are listed under the "TinyX
> Device Dependent Usage:" section in the help, but I'm not sure what
> that means.  Are these options generally supported to use a different
> mouse and keyboard for a Xephyr instance?
>

Hmm, I've never tried them options with Xephyr at least though Im not
surprised they dont work. Xephyr basically gets its mouse and keyboard
events directly from the the parent X server ( via X events ) and just
'forwards' them into itself. Its ignoring -mouse and vtXX .

> We have been trying a variant of xnest called multiXnest
> (http://www.c3sl.ufpr.br/multiterminal/howtos/howto-xnest-en.htm)
> to achieve multiple users on one machine.  In the past we have just
> run multiple x server on discrete cards, but we have stability
> problems, and running one x server with nested displays is more
> stable.  Also nested displays allow two users on one multi-head video
> card.  However, xnest is old an unmaintained, and Xephyr holds promise
> for getting the xv video extension and maybe even 3d acceleration in
> the future.
>

Aha, I see from the above why you would need Xephyr to do this.

> In order to start using Xephyr, we need a way to specify mouse and
> keyboard devices, preferably as evdev phys locations like in
> xorg.conf, but either as /dev/input/mouseX or /dev/input/eventX or
> keyboards as a vtXX (then we can use faketty to get a different
> keyboard on different vts) would be OK.  Is this supported by the
> current version of Xephyr, and if so do you have any tips for us?  No
> matter what we tried for -mouse and vtXX the Xephyr screen always used
> the same pointer and keyboard as the underlying x server.
>
> If the -mouse and vtXX options are not fully implemented yet, what
> would it take to make them work in the general case?  There are lots
> of people interested in multi-user  operation that might be able to
> hack at Xephyr, or what would it take to get you to make the changes?
> If we were to pay your consulting firm to make these changes in the
> very near future, what kind of costs would be involved?  Of course all
> work would be gpl and part of the main branch.
>

It wouldn't be too hard to modify Xephyr to grab directly events via
evdev exactly like the above. Assuming we just worried about evdev
events for mice and keyboard ( via existing -mouse <evdev device> and
possibly a new -keyboard <evdev device> keyboard switches ), Im assuming
this would take about a weeks work. I just need to double check some of
the keyboard evdev stuff to be 100% sure it would work.

Cost wise would be around 4000 USD. Please let me know if this is with
in your budget.

Also if you wanted code pushed upstream it would have to be MIT licensed
rather than GPL ( existing license license like most/all X stuff is
MIT ).

> Having mouse and keyboards specified makes Xephyr as good as
> multiXnest for us, but once again we want to move to Xephyr for the
> future.

Xephyr does have other advantages over Xnest - server side support for
modern X extensions like XRender, XRandr, XDamage etc.

> What kind of work (or costs) would be involved to:
> 1. use the xv extension for video overlays
> 2. handle the keyboard leds properly
> 3. use nvidia 3d hardware excelleration

(1) I think would be possible and *maybe* not that hard. Would need more
investigation.
(2) Could very likely be fairly trivial with the above evdev additions.
(3) This is probably extremely difficult and maybe not even possible at
all. Though that said vmware can do direct3d accel via h/w afaik on
Linux so there is likely a way. Needs much more thought though. You are
likely looking at months rather than weeks of work here.

> If those tasks are just about impossible in the next year, moving to
> Xephyr doesn't help all that much, except maybe Xephyr is faster than
> xnest.
>

Depending on the underlying card and X operation Xephyr likely does out
perform Xnest though I've never ran any figures on this.

Many thanks;

  -- Matthew Allum
     http://openedhand.com

Re[14]:

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[Hugo V. <hvw...@ya...>]

Hi,

One neat site:
http://klive.cpushare.com/

I would love to see another category: "multi-user".

Hugo


	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: faketty docs/howto?

[Daniel W. <da...@in...>]

at http://www.c3sl.ufpr.br/multiterminal/index-en.php you find more than 
one way to create a multiterminal. Including faketty.

Daniel


Andreas Schuldei escreveu:
> i would like to switch from ruby to faketty. where can i find
> documentation and a howto? the console never worked for me so
> this seems the obvious way to go.
> 
> 
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Re: Linuxconsole-dev digest, Vol 1 #1138 - 4 msgs

[Yuri S. <se...@na...>]

Hello

I have got a problem when run "make" after patching & configuring bruby=20
kernel
Can someone help me ?

localhost linux-2.6.13.4 # make
  CHK     include/linux/version.h
make[1]: `arch/x86_64/kernel/asm-offsets.s' =CE=C5 =D4=D2=C5=C2=D5=C5=D4 =
=CF=C2=CE=CF=D7=CC=C5=CE=C9=D1.
  CHK     include/linux/compile.h
  CHK     usr/initramfs_list
  CC      drivers/char/sysrq.o
drivers/char/sysrq.c: In function `sysrq_handle_unraw':
drivers/char/sysrq.c:88: error: structure has no member named `kbd_table'
make[2]: *** [drivers/char/sysrq.o] Error 1
make[1]: *** [drivers/char] Error 2
make: *** [drivers] Error 2
localhost linux-2.6.13.4 #

Re: faketty docs/howto?

[Hugo V. <hvw...@ya...>]

Andreas Schuldei <an...@sc...> wrote: i would like to switch from ruby to faketty. where can i find
documentation and a howto? the console never worked for me so
this seems the obvious way to go.


http://members.westnet.com.au/vanzeeland/Linux/configure_X.htm
 
 Faketty resolves all Ruby problems for me.
 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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faketty docs/howto?

[<an...@sc...>]

i would like to switch from ruby to faketty. where can i find
documentation and a howto? the console never worked for me so
this seems the obvious way to go.

Re: Multiseat supported by Xorg or not?

[Aivils S. <ai...@un...>]

On Tre=F0diena, 16. Novembris 2005 14:40, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> Am Dienstag 15 November 2005 11:41, schrieb Aivils Stoss:
> > On Ceturtdiena, 10. Novembris 2005 09:51, Helge Hafting wrote:
> > > Aivils Stoss wrote:
> > > >On Tre=F0diena, 9. Novembris 2005 13:38, Ander Conselvan de Oliveira=
=20
wrote:
> > > >>Helge Hafting wrote:
> > > >>>Ander Conselvan de Oliveira wrote:
> > > >>>>Helge Hafting wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Well, ordinary x.org (from debian and several others) is capable of
> > > >>>using several pointers and keyboards.  (One pointer+kbd per seat.)
> > > >>>That's why I asked - I already run such a setup. :-)
> > > >>
> > > >>That's the point. The x.org was modified to allow multiseat. But th=
is
> > > >> is a hack. The whole thing is made so that just one instance of the
> > > >> server is controlling all the hardware. The right way to do it,
> > > >> would be implement something like RAC into the kernel.
> > > >
> > > >Yep. That Debian modification is not acepted by X men. It is nonpro
> > > > solution as all as i provide. I think working state is a lucky case
> > > > more than regularity, even so many peoples use it.
> > >
> > > Hm.  Do those "X-men" have a long-term plan for a better
> > > solution than the working one they don't like?
> >
> > Someone should make public a political volition about multi seat, like
> > petition to Xorg "We want to live as humans".
> > I have read discussions about multi seat. two anti conditions are
> > notified allways:
> > 1) multiple X cannot manage hardware resources.
> > 2) _nonstandard_ solution increase costs anyway, even if hardware is
> > cheaper.
> >
> > standard or nonstandard is a public opinition only. At least i do not
> > know how to ISO commite,ANSI,DIN defines a PC.
>
> Hm, I wonder what relation these comments have to the attached emails from
> xo...@li... just yesterday.

Wow! Dummy me!
xorg-x11-6.8.99.902.tar.bz2 realy contain -sharevts and -isolateDevice
commandline options and undocumented (no manual, no readme) evdev driver fr=
om=20
RedHat. X men give up.

Now anybody can write to Xorg "Why video card A is not compatible with
video card B , if multiple X runs simultaneous?" or "Why i cannot start
2nd X on my dual head video card?" ;-)

Aivils

Re: Multiseat supported by Xorg or not?

[Aivils S. <ai...@un...>]

On Tre=F0diena, 16. Novembris 2005 14:40, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> Am Dienstag 15 November 2005 11:41, schrieb Aivils Stoss:
> > On Ceturtdiena, 10. Novembris 2005 09:51, Helge Hafting wrote:
> > > Aivils Stoss wrote:
> > > >On Tre=F0diena, 9. Novembris 2005 13:38, Ander Conselvan de Oliveira=
=20
wrote:
> > > >>Helge Hafting wrote:
> > > >>>Ander Conselvan de Oliveira wrote:
> > > >>>>Helge Hafting wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Well, ordinary x.org (from debian and several others) is capable of
> > > >>>using several pointers and keyboards.  (One pointer+kbd per seat.)
> > > >>>That's why I asked - I already run such a setup. :-)
> > > >>
> > > >>That's the point. The x.org was modified to allow multiseat. But th=
is
> > > >> is a hack. The whole thing is made so that just one instance of the
> > > >> server is controlling all the hardware. The right way to do it,
> > > >> would be implement something like RAC into the kernel.
> > > >
> > > >Yep. That Debian modification is not acepted by X men. It is nonpro
> > > > solution as all as i provide. I think working state is a lucky case
> > > > more than regularity, even so many peoples use it.
> > >
> > > Hm.  Do those "X-men" have a long-term plan for a better
> > > solution than the working one they don't like?
> >
> > Someone should make public a political volition about multi seat, like
> > petition to Xorg "We want to live as humans".
> > I have read discussions about multi seat. two anti conditions are
> > notified allways:
> > 1) multiple X cannot manage hardware resources.
> > 2) _nonstandard_ solution increase costs anyway, even if hardware is
> > cheaper.
> >
> > standard or nonstandard is a public opinition only. At least i do not
> > know how to ISO commite,ANSI,DIN defines a PC.
>
> Hm, I wonder what relation these comments have to the attached emails from
> xo...@li... just yesterday.
>
That is third party code. Try to ask Xorg why similar keyboard driver,
shipped by Debian, created at fall of 2003, does not fit for main stream.
key word: 055_lnx_evdev_keyboard.diff
destination: www.debian.org
Debian stable shipped with this one.

Aivils

Multiseat supported by Xorg or not?

[Friedrich W. H. K. <Fri...@ko...>]

Am Dienstag 15 November 2005 11:41, schrieb Aivils Stoss:
> On Ceturtdiena, 10. Novembris 2005 09:51, Helge Hafting wrote:
> > Aivils Stoss wrote:
> > >On Tre=C5=A1diena, 9. Novembris 2005 13:38, Ander Conselvan de Oliveir=
a wrote:
> > >>Helge Hafting wrote:
> > >>>Ander Conselvan de Oliveira wrote:
> > >>>>Helge Hafting wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>Well, ordinary x.org (from debian and several others) is capable of
> > >>>using several pointers and keyboards.  (One pointer+kbd per seat.)
> > >>>That's why I asked - I already run such a setup. :-)
> > >>
> > >>That's the point. The x.org was modified to allow multiseat. But this
> > >> is a hack. The whole thing is made so that just one instance of the
> > >> server is controlling all the hardware. The right way to do it, would
> > >> be implement something like RAC into the kernel.
> > >
> > >Yep. That Debian modification is not acepted by X men. It is nonpro
> > > solution as all as i provide. I think working state is a lucky case
> > > more than regularity, even so many peoples use it.
> >
> > Hm.  Do those "X-men" have a long-term plan for a better
> > solution than the working one they don't like?
>
> Someone should make public a political volition about multi seat, like
> petition to Xorg "We want to live as humans".
> I have read discussions about multi seat. two anti conditions are
> notified allways:
> 1) multiple X cannot manage hardware resources.
> 2) _nonstandard_ solution increase costs anyway, even if hardware is
> cheaper.
>
> standard or nonstandard is a public opinition only. At least i do not
> know how to ISO commite,ANSI,DIN defines a PC.

Hm, I wonder what relation these comments have to the attached emails from =
=20
xo...@li... just yesterday.

Regards
=46riedrich

Re: nvidia crashing info

[Ruben F. <par...@gm...>]

A very refreshing story on multi-seated X! I enjoyed reading it and 
learned a lot about stability issues. Keep up the good work, and thank 
you for this well-written report!
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:36:46 -0600
> From: Open Sense Solutions <in...@op...>
> To: lin...@li...
> Subject: nvidia crashing info
> 
> Here's some more info on the nvidia crashing problem so many people
> have experienced in one form or another:
> Our old Debian software with XFree86 used the nvidia driver and was
> very stable.  Now with Ubuntu 5.10 and Xorg we are having a lot more
> problems.  Using the nv open source driver instead of the binary
> nvidia, things are very stable.  Restarting the primary x server with
> ctrl-alt-bs repeatedly can crash things, but we have gdm set to not
> restart the x servers.  However, the nvidia binary driver is crashing
> about 1/20 times during logout.  A gdm restart gets things back, but
> the crashing is unacceptable.  We have noticed interrupt conflicts
> that made things even worse, but even with the nvidia cards on a
> different interrupt from the ethernet card we still see crashes.  It
> would be interesting to see if we could get each nvidia card to have
> its own interrupt if that would fix things.  Of course interrupt
> conflicts mean the nvidia driver is not pci spec compliant, but what
> will it take to convince nvidia to take a serious look at this issue?
> 
> We just turned off a third station on one of our boxes to see if it
> was more stable, and it still crashed using the nvidia driver, but
> even more interestingly, the gdm.log had this message:
> 
> NVIDIA: could not open the device file /dev/nvidia2 (Input/output error).
> (EE) NVIDIA(0): Failed to initialize the NVIDIA graphics device!
> 
> and /dev/nvidia2 shouldn't even be used!  Why is the primary card
> trying to open /dev/nvidia2???  We were only running 2 xservers which
> should be using /dev/nvidia0 and /dev/nvidia1.  /dev/nvidia2 was
> probably created during our initial probe (we probe all cards even if
> we don't have enough keyboards and mice in case we want to start
> additional servers later) but it should not be referenced at all.
> 
> This kind of error tells us something about how the cards are
> conflicting with other cards in the system, but only nvidia can make
> sense of it since the drivers are closed.  We are fed up, and have 5
> ATI cards getting delivered tomorrow for experimentation: two 9250
> pci, 1 9250 agp, and an x300 pci-e.  Supposedly you can run two
> independent x servers with one dual head card using the binary ATI
> driver, which would be a cost savings.  The multiXnest approach gets
> you that even with nvidia, but it is slow. Everyone says ATI is not
> linux friendly, but maybe once we figure out all the quirks it will
> not crash like nvidia.  If Matrox was a little more Linux friendly we
> might try them, and their new pci-e 1x cards would be very useful in
> modern systems to allow more cards, but Matrox prices are just insane.

Re: multiXnest

[Aivils S. <ai...@un...>]

On Ceturtdiena, 10. Novembris 2005 09:51, Helge Hafting wrote:
> Aivils Stoss wrote:
> >On Tre=C5=A1diena, 9. Novembris 2005 13:38, Ander Conselvan de Oliveira =
wrote:
> >>Helge Hafting wrote:
> >>>Ander Conselvan de Oliveira wrote:
> >>>>Helge Hafting wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Well, ordinary x.org (from debian and several others) is capable of
> >>>using several pointers and keyboards.  (One pointer+kbd per seat.)
> >>>That's why I asked - I already run such a setup. :-)
> >>
> >>That's the point. The x.org was modified to allow multiseat. But this is
> >>a hack. The whole thing is made so that just one instance of the server
> >>is controlling all the hardware. The right way to do it, would be
> >>implement something like RAC into the kernel.
> >
> >Yep. That Debian modification is not acepted by X men. It is nonpro
> > solution as all as i provide. I think working state is a lucky case more
> > than regularity, even so many peoples use it.
>
> Hm.  Do those "X-men" have a long-term plan for a better
> solution than the working one they don't like?

Someone should make public a political volition about multi seat, like
petition to Xorg "We want to live as humans".
I have read discussions about multi seat. two anti conditions are
notified allways:
1) multiple X cannot manage hardware resources.
2) _nonstandard_ solution increase costs anyway, even if hardware is cheape=
r.

standard or nonstandard is a public opinition only. At least i do not
know how to ISO commite,ANSI,DIN defines a PC.

Aivils

Re: faketty-0.04 w/ fedora rawhide 2.4.16

[Aivils S. <ai...@un...>]

On Ceturtdiena, 10. Novembris 2005 16:08, Frederick W. Koehler wrote:
> Hi,
>
> =A0 Was testing compiling faketty-0.04 with fedora development kernel
> (from kernel-2.6.14-1.1657_FC5.src.rpm) and found some problems with
> class_device_create calls. =A0Attached is a small diff w/ the lines I
> changed to produce a module that appears to work. =A0Apologies if this is
> not formated in a standard way, etc.

That is not Linus tree issue, but -git , fedora specific kernel patch,=20
related. Look into /usr/src/linux/include/linux/device.h

Aivils
patch untested.
diff -ru faketty-0.04/faketty.c faketty-0.04.git/faketty.c
=2D-- faketty-0.04/faketty.c	2005-10-01 18:14:16.000000000 +0300
+++ faketty-0.04.git/faketty.c	2005-11-15 11:02:28.000000000 +0200
@@ -807,7 +807,7 @@
 				MKDEV(INPUT_MAJOR, FTTY_MINOR_BASE + minor),
 				dev->dev, "ftty%d", minor);
 #else
=2D	class_device_create(input_class,
+	class_device_create(input_class, NULL,
 				MKDEV(INPUT_MAJOR, FTTY_MINOR_BASE + minor),
 				dev->dev, "ftty%d", minor);
 #endif

nvidia crashing info

[Open S. S. <in...@op...>]

Here's some more info on the nvidia crashing problem so many people
have experienced in one form or another:
Our old Debian software with XFree86 used the nvidia driver and was
very stable.  Now with Ubuntu 5.10 and Xorg we are having a lot more
problems.  Using the nv open source driver instead of the binary
nvidia, things are very stable.  Restarting the primary x server with
ctrl-alt-bs repeatedly can crash things, but we have gdm set to not
restart the x servers.  However, the nvidia binary driver is crashing
about 1/20 times during logout.  A gdm restart gets things back, but
the crashing is unacceptable.  We have noticed interrupt conflicts
that made things even worse, but even with the nvidia cards on a
different interrupt from the ethernet card we still see crashes.  It
would be interesting to see if we could get each nvidia card to have
its own interrupt if that would fix things.  Of course interrupt
conflicts mean the nvidia driver is not pci spec compliant, but what
will it take to convince nvidia to take a serious look at this issue?

We just turned off a third station on one of our boxes to see if it
was more stable, and it still crashed using the nvidia driver, but
even more interestingly, the gdm.log had this message:

NVIDIA: could not open the device file /dev/nvidia2 (Input/output error).
(EE) NVIDIA(0): Failed to initialize the NVIDIA graphics device!

and /dev/nvidia2 shouldn't even be used!  Why is the primary card
trying to open /dev/nvidia2???  We were only running 2 xservers which
should be using /dev/nvidia0 and /dev/nvidia1.  /dev/nvidia2 was
probably created during our initial probe (we probe all cards even if
we don't have enough keyboards and mice in case we want to start
additional servers later) but it should not be referenced at all.

This kind of error tells us something about how the cards are
conflicting with other cards in the system, but only nvidia can make
sense of it since the drivers are closed.  We are fed up, and have 5
ATI cards getting delivered tomorrow for experimentation: two 9250
pci, 1 9250 agp, and an x300 pci-e.  Supposedly you can run two
independent x servers with one dual head card using the binary ATI
driver, which would be a cost savings.  The multiXnest approach gets
you that even with nvidia, but it is slow. Everyone says ATI is not
linux friendly, but maybe once we figure out all the quirks it will
not crash like nvidia.  If Matrox was a little more Linux friendly we
might try them, and their new pci-e 1x cards would be very useful in
modern systems to allow more cards, but Matrox prices are just insane.

Thanks,
Mike Pardee
Open Sense Solutions LLC
http://opensensesolutions.com

Re: Console permissions?

[ludovic p. <pl...@nn...>]

Hello,

I wrote a small tool (session fs) to deal with issues related to sound ca=
rd &=20
multi-console : http://perso.nnx.com/pludov/homepage/index-sessionfs.html

With it, scripts which normally modify ownership of /dev/dsp should then=20
modify the files related to their DISPLAY (provided that they only=20
touch /dev/dsp and not /dev/dsp1, /dev/dsp2...)=20

But I never tested it for that purpose (I always have the same user on bo=
th=20
DISPLAY)

Basically, it replaces /dev/dsp to a symlink to a dsp depending on the DI=
SPLAY=20
environement variable (/dev/dsp1, ...).
The main goal is to hide it to common programs which generally use /dev/d=
sp.

Hope it helps !

Ludovic P


Le Vendredi 11 Novembre 2005 17:29, Mark Hurenkamp a =E9crit :
> Hi,
>
>
> I've been running multi-console for a while now (sometimes ruby, someti=
mes
> only with xorg patches), but would like to solve one final issue.
> Normally when using a single console, the first user to login gets all
> kinds of
> devices assigned, and thus is able to use /dev/cdrom for instance or th=
e
> audio
> devices /dev/dsp, /dev/mixer, /dev/snd/* and /dev/sound/*.
>
> When multiple users being able to log in at the same time, I want this
> behaviour
> to change. Simply disabling the default behaviour is possible, and thus
> setting
> these devices to sane defaults is already possible.
> (see
> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-7-Manual/ref-guide/s1-sysa=
dmin
>-console-access.html )
>
> However ideally, I would want the proper devices to be assigned to the
> proper
> user (e.g. if user john is logged onto head1, I want /dev/dsp1 and
> /dev/mixer1
> assigned ownership to john, without interfering with user jane on head2=
 who
> has assigned /dev/dsp2 and /dev/mixer2).
>
> Anyone have an idea how to get this done? Can I do this using the
> /etc/X11/gdm/PostLogin and /etc/X11/gdm/PostSession scripts or is there
> a better way?
>
>
> Greetings,
> Mark.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> SF.Net email is sponsored by:
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> Download it for free - -and be entered to win a 42" plasma tv or your v=
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hp
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxconsole-dev mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linuxconsole-dev

--=20
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not trie=
d it.
		-- Donald Knuth

Re: multiXnest results

[Ander C. de O. <an...@c3...>]

Michael Pardee wrote:
> multiXnest looks great!  I always thought about creating that
> capability by hacking VNC, I never really knew about Xnest.   I
> haven't tried Aivils variant yet, that's next on my list.  Of course
> there is no 3D acceleration and no xv extension, so the old single
> xserver per card approach still has its place, but multiXnest looks
> very promising.  NOTE: the keyboard leds are all working fine for me.
Are you using a ruby or faketty together with multiXnest?
> 
> I set up a single nvidia dual-head card for two desktops, and am
> having one significant problem:  sometimes after the machine sits idle
> for a few hours (sometimes it goes for a long time OK) the gnome
> sessions mysteriously exit and it goes back to the gdm login screen.
> This same machine in a non-multiXnest configuration doesn't have that
> problem.
> 
> So, where is the log for multiXnest?  Not in /var/log/Xorg* because it
> is not an original X server, and ~/.xsession-errors only goes so far
> before filling up with some stupid gnome error so I can't see if there
> were gnome messages right before gnome dies.  Also, I didn't see a
> debug command line option, what do you recommend for debugging
> Xnest/multiXnest?
It actually doesn't have a log. All error messages are sent to stderr, 
but, if you're using gdm, there sould be a /var/log/gdm/:*.log.
> 
> On a much less important note, gnome is acting a little strange with
> Xnest, I think because the nested servers are indeed slower with
> higher cpu usage, and the focus stealing prevention is kicking in way
> too much.  Windows are sometimes getting launched behind others with a
> flashing taskbar entry.  I have to figure out how to turn that off in
> gnome.
> 
> Also, it probably doesn't matter, but I would feel better if there was
> a way to completely disable the keyboard(s) on the root hardware x
> server.  I found limited info, but couldn't start X with several
> approaches.  One would think some kiosks would be without a keyboard
> and there should be a way to use X like that.  We are using
> AllowMouseFailOpen to disable mice on the root hardware x server.
Xorg does not allow this. It won't start without a keyboard. But if your 
problem is ctrl-alt-backspace ande ctrl-alt-f[1-12], then you can use 
the options DontZap and DontVTSwitch.

Ander

Re: Secondary console does not start properly, int10 problem?

[Aivils S. <ai...@un...>]

On Pirmdiena, 14. Novembris 2005 16:22, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> > > > Also full truth about Linux input, ftty included
> > > > # cat /proc/bus/input/devices
> > >
> > > It is, ah, funny, the pc speaker got ftty0, now, for that I have a hard
> > > time to produce input :P
>
> Any comment about this? Is this known or does faketty perhaps not match
> SUSE 10.0's kernel to perfectly? I mean, ftty1 and ftty2 still work as
> promoted. :)

SUSE 10.0's kernel match through and through. Normal kernel maps
keyboards and speakers to single TTY layer tty1-tty63. Input layer
PC speaker regard as separate input device. faketty creates device
file for each suited device (key and sound). If userspace process
call sound ioctl, then bells all possible speakers, which are registered
by faketty, have device separate ftty file or have not.
Whatever, process can open that ftty0 and bell, bell, bell via
standard TTY ioctl's.

Aivils
p.s. snake charmers words works better for me than PCI code reading.
That code its realy messy.

Re: Secondary console does not start properly, int10 problem?

[Friedrich W. H. K. <Fri...@ko...>]

Am Montag 14 November 2005 14:03, schrieb Aivils Stoss:
> On Pirmdiena, 14. Novembris 2005 13:59, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> > Am Montag 14 November 2005 10:17, schrieb Aivils Stoss:
> > > On Sv=E7tdiena, 13. Novembris 2005 23:23, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wr=
ote:
> > >
> > > faketty runs correctly if is possible see output of this:
> > > # cat /dev/fttyXX
> >
> > It is, but only for ftty{1,2}. ftty0 stays silent.
> >
> > > Also full truth about Linux input, ftty included
> > > # cat /proc/bus/input/devices
> >
> > It is, ah, funny, the pc speaker got ftty0, now, for that I have a hard
> > time to produce input :P

Any comment about this? Is this known or does faketty perhaps not match SUS=
E=20
10.0's kernel to perfectly? I mean, ftty1 and ftty2 still work as=20
promoted. :)

> > I: Bus=3D0010 Vendor=3D001f Product=3D0001 Version=3D0100
> > N: Name=3D"PC Speaker"
> > P: Phys=3Disa0061/input0
> > H: Handlers=3Dkbd event0 ftty0
> > B: EV=3D40001
> > B: SND=3D6
> >
> > I: Bus=3D0011 Vendor=3D0001 Product=3D0002 Version=3Dab83
> > N: Name=3D"AT Raw Set 2 keyboard"
> > P: Phys=3Disa0060/serio1/input0
> > H: Handlers=3Dkbd event1 ftty1
> > B: EV=3D120013
> > B: KEY=3D4 2000000 3802078 f840d001 f2ffffdf ffefffff ffffffff fffffffe
> > B: MSC=3D10
> > B: LED=3D7
> >
> > I: Bus=3D0011 Vendor=3D0001 Product=3D0001 Version=3Dab41
> > N: Name=3D"AT Translated Set 2 keyboard"
> > P: Phys=3Disa0060/serio0/input0
> > H: Handlers=3Dkbd event2 ftty2
> > B: EV=3D120013
> > B: KEY=3D4 2000000 3802078 f840d001 f2ffffdf ffefffff ffffffff fffffffe
> > B: MSC=3D10
> > B: LED=3D7
> >
> > I: Bus=3D0003 Vendor=3D05fe Product=3D0001 Version=3D047b
> > N: Name=3D"Cypress Sem Cypress USB Mouse"
> > P: Phys=3Dusb-0000:00:07.2-2/input0
> > H: Handlers=3Dmouse0 event3
> > B: EV=3D7
> > B: KEY=3D70000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
> > B: REL=3D3
> >
> > > > Funny enough: Having started the secondary console when pressing so=
me
> > > > keys random characters are added both to the primary (where the she=
ll
> > > > is) _and_ the secondary screen. Even better, when some screensaver
> > > > starts (no idea which) _both_ screens are blanked and return again
> > > > after some keypress. Sometimes even the prompt changes to the second
> > > > screen.
> > >
> > > Not all video adapters or X drivers have capability to share resources
> > > (VGA,PCI) between two independ X servers. Looks like one of X driver
> > > steer both adapters, because both adapters may be use same resources.
> >
> > Hm. Is there any output I could investigate to find numbers which could
> > point to shared resources? Like Xorg.{0,1}.log? Where to look best? Whi=
ch
> > resources are there at all? What do you mean by VGA-resource? In the
> > BIOS?
>
> stay away from it, as you stay away from a "serpent"!

Oh, I heard there are snake-charmers ;)

> > And does this mean that the single card option is not fully supported by
> > all drivers? Where do/can they driver ignore it?
>
> 1st X occupy PCI resource A to B. 2nd X does not have info about this and
> think A to B is free and occupy it again.=20

So what is the isolate-device patch then for? (Hm, should take a closer loo=
k=20
myself). Does it only prevent broadcasts?

> I have very foggy image , how to=20
> works memory mapped video adapter registers, like VGA. X do it all
> automatic without any query and without any preconfigured condition.

And to teach X to do other is left for the snake farmers, right? ;)

Hm, the source is open... Will see if I can dig a little there (will take a=
=20
stick with me to defend against possible snake attacks :).

Regards
=46riedrich

Re: Secondary console does not start properly, int10 problem?

[Aivils S. <ai...@un...>]

On Pirmdiena, 14. Novembris 2005 13:59, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> Am Montag 14 November 2005 10:17, schrieb Aivils Stoss:
> > On Sv=E7tdiena, 13. Novembris 2005 23:23, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrot=
e:
> > > PCI ViRGE/DX-graphic cards (s3virge driver) with a LCD
> > > PCI TGUI 9440 graphic cards (trident driver) with a CRT
> >
> > Old is gold?
>
> Rather, old did not cost money ;)
> But they look rather rusty right now, in terms of multi terminal :/
>
> > > 2 PS/2 keyboards :)
> > > 1 serial mouse
> > > 1 USB mouse
> > >
> > > The hardware runs properly in a plain dual head single console setup.
> > > So I read all the docs I found (thanks to those who set them all up :)
> > > and ended with this multi console approach:
> > > * added boot service which probes secondary graphic card (u.
> > > xorg.conf.probe) -> works, second monitor changes from blank to
> > > blinking text mode cursor * added service faketty and start links to
> > > /etc/init.d{,/rc3.d,/rc5.d} -> works, /dev/{fttyN,tty5N} can be opened
> > > and give pressed keys exclusivly* * added some symlinks to X (X0, X1,
> > > why is this needed at all?)
> >
> > Only for killing of right X.
>
> I guess for killall?
>
> > > * edited xorg.conf: one layout for each graphic card/terminal, added
> > > 	Option       "SingleCard" "true"
> > > to every layout,
> > > 	Option       "NoInt10"
> > > to every device.
> > > So the setup looks complete, doesn't it? (kdmrc left out for the
> > > moment)
> > >
> > > Well, it works only so far as the console on the primary is started
> > > (both with vt7 and vt51). Then the X-Server starts up nicely only on
> > > this screen and runs a heavy KDE session with no problems. Shutting
> > > down also goes smoothly. But when starting the secondary console (with
> > > or without the first running), e.g.
> > > 	$ X1 -layout "TGUI console" :1 vt52
> > > it fails. The screen stays in textmode, last line printed
> > > 	(=3D=3D) Using config file: "/etc/X11/xorg.conf"
> > > Resetting per Ctrl-Alt-Backspace does not work, I have to login
> > > remotely to kill -9 the X process. Before doing so listing the
> > > processes returns 5072 ?        Rs     2:02 X1 :1 -layout TGUI console
> > > vt52
> > > Then I get back to the shell prompt locally (sometimes lost in random
> > > character printing, synchronous to key presses), only to have the who=
le
> > > computer hangup completly after some further shell operations (like
> > > trying to reboot).
> >
> > faketty runs correctly if is possible see output of this:
> > # cat /dev/fttyXX
>
> It is, but only for ftty{1,2}. ftty0 stays silent.
>
> > Also full truth about Linux input, ftty included
> > # cat /proc/bus/input/devices
>
> It is, ah, funny, the pc speaker got ftty0, now, for that I have a hard
> time to produce input :P
>
> I: Bus=3D0010 Vendor=3D001f Product=3D0001 Version=3D0100
> N: Name=3D"PC Speaker"
> P: Phys=3Disa0061/input0
> H: Handlers=3Dkbd event0 ftty0
> B: EV=3D40001
> B: SND=3D6
>
> I: Bus=3D0011 Vendor=3D0001 Product=3D0002 Version=3Dab83
> N: Name=3D"AT Raw Set 2 keyboard"
> P: Phys=3Disa0060/serio1/input0
> H: Handlers=3Dkbd event1 ftty1
> B: EV=3D120013
> B: KEY=3D4 2000000 3802078 f840d001 f2ffffdf ffefffff ffffffff fffffffe
> B: MSC=3D10
> B: LED=3D7
>
> I: Bus=3D0011 Vendor=3D0001 Product=3D0001 Version=3Dab41
> N: Name=3D"AT Translated Set 2 keyboard"
> P: Phys=3Disa0060/serio0/input0
> H: Handlers=3Dkbd event2 ftty2
> B: EV=3D120013
> B: KEY=3D4 2000000 3802078 f840d001 f2ffffdf ffefffff ffffffff fffffffe
> B: MSC=3D10
> B: LED=3D7
>
> I: Bus=3D0003 Vendor=3D05fe Product=3D0001 Version=3D047b
> N: Name=3D"Cypress Sem Cypress USB Mouse"
> P: Phys=3Dusb-0000:00:07.2-2/input0
> H: Handlers=3Dmouse0 event3
> B: EV=3D7
> B: KEY=3D70000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
> B: REL=3D3
>
> > > Funny enough: Having started the secondary console when pressing some
> > > keys random characters are added both to the primary (where the shell
> > > is) _and_ the secondary screen. Even better, when some screensaver
> > > starts (no idea which) _both_ screens are blanked and return again
> > > after some keypress. Sometimes even the prompt changes to the second
> > > screen.
> >
> > Not all video adapters or X drivers have capability to share resources
> > (VGA,PCI) between two independ X servers. Looks like one of X driver
> > steer both adapters, because both adapters may be use same resources.
>
> Hm. Is there any output I could investigate to find numbers which could
> point to shared resources? Like Xorg.{0,1}.log? Where to look best? Which
> resources are there at all? What do you mean by VGA-resource? In the BIOS?

stay away from it, as you stay away from a "serpent"!

> And does this mean that the single card option is not fully supported by
> all drivers? Where do/can they driver ignore it?

1st X occupy PCI resource A to B. 2nd X does not have info about this and
think A to B is free and occupy it again. I have very foggy image , how to
works memory mapped video adapter registers, like VGA. X do it all automati=
c=20
without any query and without any preconfigured condition.

Aivils