gamedevlists-windows — List for discussing game development on the Windows platform

Re: [GD-Windows] Hijacking application

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

In article <495...@mi...>,
    Gareth Lewin <GL...@cl...>  writes:

> there are two ways to get your stuff into the product without really hacking
> the binary, that's either injecting your own DLL into the address space or
> wrapping a DLL that is used. Injecting is the 'prefered' way.

What's injecting again?  Unless they link against your import library
or LoadLibrary() your DLL, how are you going to get it in their
address space without wrapping an existing DLL that they use?

"MXMonitor" is an example of a program that inserts itself into
another program by wrapping the DLL, I think.  MXMonitor is a control
client for the WinMX peer-to-peer file sharing client.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
          <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
             Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
                <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

RE: [GD-Windows] Hijacking application

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

The first thing you want to do is inject a DLL into the address space of the
tool. Another way is to write a dummy dll wrapper for a dll it uses (D3d.dll
is often used) and then you can just agregate the original DLL and add your
own stuff.

A lot depends on what you want to actually do.

Probably the best example of a forced in plugin that I know of DECAL. It's
basically a framework for plugins into Asheron's Call's client. Take a look
at http://sourceforge.net/projects/decalac/

So share with us your goal, and we'll try help you hax0r them :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hook [mailto:ho...@py...]
> Sent: 19 August 2003 02:51
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Windows] Hijacking application
> 
> 
> I have a feeling this can't be done, but I figured I'd ask the list 
> anyways just in case.
> 
> Say I want to write a plug-in for random application XYZ.  XYZ, 
> however, may not have a plug-in API or it may be broken.  Use Notepad 
> as an example.
> 
> If I wanted to add a plug-in, it seems like it would be pretty much 
> impossible unless my plug-in didn't require any of the application's 
> other data.  
> 
> I swore there were a few plug-ins I've seen that have forced 
> their way 
> into an application, but I can't think of what they might be 
> now.  The 
> obvious ones are like Visual Assist, Max plug-ins, Maya plug-ins, 
> Photoshop plug-ins, VS plug-ins, etc. but those all have registered 
> APIs.  I've seen screenshots of people that have retrofitted a new 
> menu into Notepad just to prove it can be done, but I'm not sure what 
> the point of that is.
> 
> The typical way you do this is a pretty convoluted process involving 
> subclassing and message hooks, but even then you can only trap new 
> menu items and maybe a couple of key messages like WM_DESTROY.  You 
> obviously can't grab application data and do anything meaningful with 
> it.
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [GD-Windows] Hijacking application

[Kent Q. <ken...@co...>]

Well, under Windows, if you can get the window handle, there's a lot you 
can hook, and you can inspect most of the standard windows components and 
extract the data they display. There are QA "robot" types of applications 
that can record and play back all sorts of things, and then examine the 
contents of the various components to see if they contain what they should.

But the more an app uses nonstandard controls, the less you can do with it. 
And if there's graphics or internal data that doesn't show up readily in 
the UI, it's pretty tough to imagine how you'd get in by other than 
explicit reverse-engineering.

         Kent


At 09:51 PM 8/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I have a feeling this can't be done, but I figured I'd ask the list
>anyways just in case.
>
>Say I want to write a plug-in for random application XYZ.  XYZ,
>however, may not have a plug-in API or it may be broken.  Use Notepad
>as an example.
>
>If I wanted to add a plug-in, it seems like it would be pretty much
>impossible unless my plug-in didn't require any of the application's
>other data.
>
>I swore there were a few plug-ins I've seen that have forced their way
>into an application, but I can't think of what they might be now.  The
>obvious ones are like Visual Assist, Max plug-ins, Maya plug-ins,
>Photoshop plug-ins, VS plug-ins, etc. but those all have registered
>APIs.  I've seen screenshots of people that have retrofitted a new
>menu into Notepad just to prove it can be done, but I'm not sure what
>the point of that is.
>
>The typical way you do this is a pretty convoluted process involving
>subclassing and message hooks, but even then you can only trap new
>menu items and maybe a couple of key messages like WM_DESTROY.  You
>obviously can't grab application data and do anything meaningful with
>it.
>
>Brian
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
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Kent Quirk, CTO, CogniToy
ken...@co...
http://www.cognitoy.com 

[GD-Windows] Hijacking application

[Brian H. <ho...@py...>]

I have a feeling this can't be done, but I figured I'd ask the list 
anyways just in case.

Say I want to write a plug-in for random application XYZ.  XYZ, 
however, may not have a plug-in API or it may be broken.  Use Notepad 
as an example.

If I wanted to add a plug-in, it seems like it would be pretty much 
impossible unless my plug-in didn't require any of the application's 
other data.  

I swore there were a few plug-ins I've seen that have forced their way 
into an application, but I can't think of what they might be now.  The 
obvious ones are like Visual Assist, Max plug-ins, Maya plug-ins, 
Photoshop plug-ins, VS plug-ins, etc. but those all have registered 
APIs.  I've seen screenshots of people that have retrofitted a new 
menu into Notepad just to prove it can be done, but I'm not sure what 
the point of that is.

The typical way you do this is a pretty convoluted process involving 
subclassing and message hooks, but even then you can only trap new 
menu items and maybe a couple of key messages like WM_DESTROY.  You 
obviously can't grab application data and do anything meaningful with 
it.

Brian

[GD-Windows] stop on first error

[Daniel V. <vo...@ep...>]

I vaguely remember there being an option with VS.NET to stop building a
solution on the first error instead of continuing to build all projects in
the solution. Anyone know where that setting is hidden?

Thanks,

-- Daniel, Epic Games Inc.

RE: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Daniel V. <vo...@ep...>]

Forgot to reply to myself earlier. Going through windows installer was =
the
easiest approach and Visual Studio .NET comes with a setup wizard for it
(Windows installer) which makes it less painful (once you figure out =
that it
exists).

-- Daniel, Epic Games Inc.=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...=20
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On=20
> Behalf Of Daniel Vogel
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:21 PM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Windows] merge modules
>=20
>=20
> Is there a simple way to install .msm files? We have a custom=20
> setup tool/
> installer and I need to install a bunch of merge modules on=20
> the customers
> machine and was wondering whether there was an easy way to do this.
>=20
> I alreday read a lot of documentation but I fear it's all=20
> leading me in the
> wrong direction :)
>=20
> -- Daniel, Epic Games Inc.
>=20
>=20
>=20
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>=20

RE: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

If you are gonna go the MSI route, can I recommend using the vs.net install
project stuff. Assuming you are using vs.net it's free, and super simple to
use.

Another option might be to contact the makers of the speech sdk, maybe they
have other versions of the redist avaiable.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:ja...@py...]
> Sent: 24 July 2003 17:29
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules 
> 
> 
> Rich wrote:
> >
> >> To quote my original question - "we have a custom setup tool/
> >> installer".
> >
> > Then asking about merge modules is a bit of a moot question, isn't
> > it?  They are only useful for WI based installations.
> 
> It is not moot if WI merge modules are the only way the Speech SDK is
> distributed. Please don't waste so much energy discussing related but
> irrelevant points and this thread will actually get 
> somewhere. Rereading the
> thread might be a good way to understand the point and be 
> able to help.
> 
> Currently, the only solution to the original problem seems to 
> be: bite the
> bullet, and create a separate installer package with WI 
> (using InstallShield
> or your setup tool of choice) to install the Speech SDK. 
> Then, call this
> installer from your custom main installer. In a way, this is 
> similar to how
> most games install the DirectX runtime.
> 
>   Javier Arevalo
>   Pyro Studios
> 
> 
> 
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> 

Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

It is related to the question, but not relevant to the answer, but you
already know this. Don't stretch this dialectic battle of yours further,
please.

Rich wrote:
>
>> Please don't waste so much energy discussing related but
>> irrelevant points and this thread will actually get somewhere.
>
> If its related, how can it be irrelevant?

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

In article <008801c35200$a3a4a5a0$7b0...@co...>,
    "Javier Arevalo" <ja...@py...>  writes:

> Please don't waste so much energy discussing related but
> irrelevant points and this thread will actually get somewhere.

If its related, how can it be irrelevant?
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
          <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    Pilgrimage: Utah's first annual demoparty on August 9th, 2003
                <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Rich wrote:
>
>> To quote my original question - "we have a custom setup tool/
>> installer".
>
> Then asking about merge modules is a bit of a moot question, isn't
> it?  They are only useful for WI based installations.

It is not moot if WI merge modules are the only way the Speech SDK is
distributed. Please don't waste so much energy discussing related but
irrelevant points and this thread will actually get somewhere. Rereading the
thread might be a good way to understand the point and be able to help.

Currently, the only solution to the original problem seems to be: bite the
bullet, and create a separate installer package with WI (using InstallShield
or your setup tool of choice) to install the Speech SDK. Then, call this
installer from your custom main installer. In a way, this is similar to how
most games install the DirectX runtime.

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

RE: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Well, I've asked around in #winprog (Normally can get any windows related
question answered there), and the best I can get is..

<theForger> inany case, they aren't intended to be used that way, even if
it's "possible"

So I don't think you can do it. There is some dependancy on the .msi file.

An option is to create just a single msi file that wraps all your merge
module(s) and just execute that .msi from inside your installer. An option,
not a good one though.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mickael Pointier [mailto:mpo...@ed...]
> Sent: 24 July 2003 16:55
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules 
> 
> 
> Rich wrote:
> > In article <015401c351f2$ff100000$8476a841@apathy>,
> >     "Daniel Vogel" <vo...@ep...>  writes:
> >
> >> To quote my original question - "we have a custom setup tool/
> >> installer".
> >
> > Then asking about merge modules is a bit of a moot question, isn't
> > it?  They are only useful for WI based installations.
> 
> You are twisting around the question, are you not ?
> 
> He needs to install some external SDK during the installation 
> process of is
> program, and that SDK is in "msm" form. He just want to know 
> how he can deal
> with that msm stuff in order to get the SDK installed.
> 
> He don't ask about the political correctness of using such or such
> installer...
> 
> I think the answer could be interesting for quite a number of people.
> 
> 
>     Mickael Pointier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> Archives:
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Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Mickael P. <mpo...@ed...>]

Rich wrote:
> In article <015401c351f2$ff100000$8476a841@apathy>,
>     "Daniel Vogel" <vo...@ep...>  writes:
>
>> To quote my original question - "we have a custom setup tool/
>> installer".
>
> Then asking about merge modules is a bit of a moot question, isn't
> it?  They are only useful for WI based installations.

You are twisting around the question, are you not ?

He needs to install some external SDK during the installation process of is
program, and that SDK is in "msm" form. He just want to know how he can deal
with that msm stuff in order to get the SDK installed.

He don't ask about the political correctness of using such or such
installer...

I think the answer could be interesting for quite a number of people.


    Mickael Pointier

Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

In article <015401c351f2$ff100000$8476a841@apathy>,
    "Daniel Vogel" <vo...@ep...>  writes:

> To quote my original question - "we have a custom setup tool/ installer".

Then asking about merge modules is a bit of a moot question, isn't
it?  They are only useful for WI based installations.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
          <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    Pilgrimage: Utah's first annual demoparty on August 9th, 2003
                <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

RE: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Daniel V. <vo...@ep...>]

To quote my original question - "we have a custom setup tool/ installer".

-- Daniel, Epic Games Inc. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li... 
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> Behalf Of Rich
> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:58 AM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules 
> 
> 
> 
> In article <IKE...@mi...>,
>     "Jon Watte" <hp...@mi...>  writes:
> 
> > Which is great, as long as you're using the Microsoft installer.=20
> > Suppose, for a moment, that you're not, for miscellaneous 
> reasons.=20
> > Then what?
> 
> Then you won't be getting any logo certifications, you won't be
> following best practices, you will likely be coding more installation
> bugs, you will likely have more work to do when creating an install,
> etc.
> 
> Really, there is no reason to NOT use Windows Installer.  Every
> "install" tool vendor has switched to WI by now, there is no reason
> you should not also switch, and many reasons why you should.
> -- 
> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
>           <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
>     Pilgrimage: Utah's first annual demoparty on August 9th, 2003
>                 <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including
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> _072303_01/01
> _______________________________________________
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> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-windows
> Archives:
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> 

Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

In article <495...@mi...>,
    Gareth Lewin <GL...@cl...>  writes:

> I'm not a Microsoft disliker, but claiming that you will have more bugs
> because you choose not to use Microsoft's flavour of the month installer is
> a bit, I don't know, far fetched.

I said it was likely that you would have more bugs.  I didn't state it
as an axiomatic fact.  I choose my words very carefully.  I say what I
mean and mean what I say.  I stand by my statement, having watched too
many installers screw things up when it comes to file versioning.  WI
does it properly.  Other installers obviously have not.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
          <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    Pilgrimage: Utah's first annual demoparty on August 9th, 2003
                <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

RE: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Jon W. <hp...@mi...>]

> Really, there is no reason to NOT use Windows Installer.  Every
> "install" tool vendor has switched to WI by now, there is no reason
> you should not also switch, and many reasons why you should.

I agree that it's often a good idea to use the Windows Installer.=20
However, it is not ALWAYS a good idea to use the Windows Installer.=20
It is not true that EVERY install tool vendor has switched, and=20
even if they did, large version updates are sometimes a lot of work=20
that can't easily be justified. I won't wash my laundry in public,=20
though ;-)

Cheers,

				/ h+

RE: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Then you won't be getting any logo certifications, you won't be
> following best practices, you will likely be coding more installation
> bugs, you will likely have more work to do when creating an install,
> etc.

I'm not a Microsoft disliker, but claiming that you will have more bugs
because you choose not to use Microsoft's flavour of the month installer is
a bit, I don't know, far fetched.

> > Really, there is no reason to NOT use Windows Installer.  Every
> "install" tool vendor has switched to WI by now, there is no reason
> you should not also switch, and many reasons why you should.

Not NSIS. It's smaller, easier to use, and it's 'cool' ( in the sense that
anything made by Justin is cool ).

Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

In article <IKE...@mi...>,
    "Jon Watte" <hp...@mi...>  writes:

> Which is great, as long as you're using the Microsoft installer.=20
> Suppose, for a moment, that you're not, for miscellaneous reasons.=20
> Then what?

Then you won't be getting any logo certifications, you won't be
following best practices, you will likely be coding more installation
bugs, you will likely have more work to do when creating an install,
etc.

Really, there is no reason to NOT use Windows Installer.  Every
"install" tool vendor has switched to WI by now, there is no reason
you should not also switch, and many reasons why you should.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
          <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    Pilgrimage: Utah's first annual demoparty on August 9th, 2003
                <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

RE: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Jon W. <hp...@mi...>]

> So the Speech SDK includes merge modules that you use to ensure that
> your application, which depends on the Speech SDK redistributables,=20
> has those redistributables properly installed along with your
> application.  You don't need to know exactly what should happen to
> install those redistributables because its packaged into a merge
> module for you to use, hiding those details.

Which is great, as long as you're using the Microsoft installer.=20
Suppose, for a moment, that you're not, for miscellaneous reasons.=20
Then what?

Cheers,

				/ h+

Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

In article <00e101c35180$fde8c4e0$8476a841@apathy>,
    "Daniel Vogel" <vo...@ep...>  writes:

> I have the Speech SDK 5.1 redistributeable here in merge modules form and
> would love to install it on customers machines - clearly just copying the
> .msm files somewhere won't suffice :)

I guess its not clear what you want to do.  Merge modules are essentially
libraries for windows installer based setup programs.  They are just
MSI databases that are merged into your existing MSI database,
according to some rules for following the merge.  They add database
entries to your MSI that install the components packaged by the merge
module.

If you were distributing an SDK and wanted to include merge modules
that allowed developers to install components provided by your SDK,
then for the developer you would just copy the merge module onto their
machine when installing the SDK.  The developer would then use the
merge module to build their installation package (MSI) that would
install their own components and your components by virtue of the
additions made to their MSI database by your merge module.

For instance, Visual Studio supplies merge modules that install the
DLLs associated with Visual Studio.  An application developer uses the
merge modules to ensure that the VS related components are installed
properly, rather than re-inventing an installation procedure for those
components (which would most likely contain errors or oversights).

So the Speech SDK includes merge modules that you use to ensure that
your application, which depends on the Speech SDK redistributables, 
has those redistributables properly installed along with your
application.  You don't need to know exactly what should happen to
install those redistributables because its packaged into a merge
module for you to use, hiding those details.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
          <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    Pilgrimage: Utah's first annual demoparty on August 9th, 2003
                <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

RE: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Daniel V. <vo...@ep...>]

> > Is there a simple way to install .msm files?
> 
> Just install them like any other file.  There's nothing special about
> them -- they are just like .h or .lib files that you would install
> with an SDK.

I have the Speech SDK 5.1 redistributeable here in merge modules form and
would love to install it on customers machines - clearly just copying the
.msm files somewhere won't suffice :)

-- Daniel, Epic Games Inc.

Re: [GD-Windows] merge modules

[Rich <leg...@xm...>]

In article <002001c35157$f924f7e0$8476a841@apathy>,
    "Daniel Vogel" <vo...@ep...>  writes:

> Is there a simple way to install .msm files?

Just install them like any other file.  There's nothing special about
them -- they are just like .h or .lib files that you would install
with an SDK.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
          <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
    Pilgrimage: Utah's first annual demoparty on August 9th, 2003
                <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

[GD-Windows] merge modules

[Daniel V. <vo...@ep...>]

Is there a simple way to install .msm files? We have a custom setup tool/
installer and I need to install a bunch of merge modules on the customers
machine and was wondering whether there was an easy way to do this.

I alreday read a lot of documentation but I fear it's all leading me in the
wrong direction :)

-- Daniel, Epic Games Inc.

RE: [GD-Windows] very strange bug!!

[Jon W. <hp...@mi...>]

> AFAIK it's the callee's responsibility to restore these registers. If
> this is true, then acmDriverEnum is broken. Should I report this
> somewhere?=20

If this is the behavior, then, yes, ACM is broken. I don't think =
Microsoft=20
would do anything with the report, though, as ACM is (AFAICT) deprecated =

in favour of the ActiveMovie/DirectShow/DirectXMedia interface.

It could be that some particular ACM codec you have installed has a bug, =

and clears this register on its enum callback, rather than the ACM =
itself,=20
too.

What most programmers do on most mature OS-es when there are =
inexplicable=20
bugs like this, is to put the work-around in, and live with it. For =
example,=20
getting display device information is also broken such that it may =
overwrite=20
data after the enum output struct; the work-around is to allocate a =
struct=20
with a kilobyte of padding on the stack, and pass that in. Your best bet =
is=20
probably to do something similar in this case (say, save esi into a =
stack=20
variable, call the function, then restore esi).

Cheers,

				/ h+

[GD-Windows] very strange bug!!

[Andras B. <bn...@ma...>]

Hi, I've been fighting with this for a while, and now I think I have
found the exact problem, but I'm not sure who's the bad guy...

The problem is that when I call the Windows function acmDriverEnum, it
clears the ESI register to zero. After this, the compiler's code tries
to access memory through ESI, because he thinks it points to a valid
address, resulting in an access violation!!!

This is a very rare bug (it almost drove me crazy), because the
compiler might use EAX, ECX, or any other register to hold the memory
address, depending on the surrounding code.

One workaround is to issue a line like this:

__asm mov esi, esi

after the call to acmDriverEnum, because this way the compiler will
save and restore esi, or use another register...

AFAIK it's the callee's responsibility to restore these registers. If
this is true, then acmDriverEnum is broken. Should I report this
somewhere? 


Bandi