gamedevlists-general — List for discussing general game development issues

Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Colin Fahey wrote:

> I consider myself an extremely good "coder" and "software engineer".
> I cheerfully assisted several teams in reaching project goals, and I
> was liked by fellow programmers and by other members of the team
> (such as artists, managers, hardware engineers, etc).
>
> I only mention those things to support my assertion that the
> following opinions are meaningful:

If you told me that during an interview you'd be in serious trouble. Ahh the
irony! :-)

-- 
  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[scott <sco...@es...>]

On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 02:57:46PM -0700, Nick Trout wrote:
> 
> * An interest in Star Trek. Must at least know Jim's middle name.
> 

I don't even know Jim's first name!  And besides, don't you want at 
least one member on your team who can introduce you to girls?  Or protect
you from the wallet inspectors?  ;)

scott

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
scott jacobs                              sco...@es...
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[GD-General] Re: what you look for in a coder...

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

We actually have a programming test that we use in addition to looking at 
the applicant's code samples.

It's a fairly mean test, in that it has some exotic stuff in there that we 
wouldn't like to see one of our programmers do. Still, my experience is that 
you'll come across this kind of code and you'll have to debug it. It's all 
great if you can write your own code, but in a team and working with 
different middleware you need to be able to understand other people's code, too.

I find that talking with them about the test (and especially the things they 
didn't figure out) helps me get a pretty good idea of what kind of 
programmer they are.

One of our biggest problem these days is education focusing on Java almost 
exclusively. We need strong C++ programmers, and the education system is 
producing mediocre Java coders.

Enno.

-- 
Nothing great has ever been accomplished without passion.
        (Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, 1770-1831)

RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Richard F. <gd...@th...>]

that's a really good idea: you never want an average coder that thinks
his code is great. got one of them already...

fabs(); 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li... 
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> Behalf Of Kent Quirk
> Sent: 07 June 2004 10:38 PM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...
> 
> 
> At 09:28 AM 6/7/2004, you wrote:
> >I also try to find out how "honest" they are, heh not in 
> terms of being 
> >liars or criminals, but how willing they are to have 
> opinions, propose 
> >their own choices, and debate them; some people go too far 
> >(opinionated, stubborn, not willing to compromise), and some people 
> >don't go far enough (waiting for you to express a view 
> before they go 
> >and nod in agreement).
> 
> 
> One thing I do is ask people to bring some code they're proud 
> of to the 
> interview. I *hate* programming tests. I think if you ask 
> someone about 
> their code and start poking at it, they can either tell you 
> what they did 
> and (at least as important) what they didn't do during the design and 
> implementation of that code. The other way to push at this is 
> to poke holes 
> in their design for a while -- why'd you do this? Wouldn't it 
> have been 
> better if you did X instead? That kind of questioning exposes their 
> knowledge of the code and design, and also helps you to 
> understand their 
> give and take in a discussion. Do they take criticism well? Do they 
> interact with you or shut down? If you want a good team 
> member, that kind 
> of thing is important.
> 
> Of course, I always tell them afterward why I did that, just 
> so they know 
> that I'm not always that aggressive in practice. ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----
> Kent Quirk
> CTO, CogniToy
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Nick T. <ni...@ro...>]

> Bryan Wagstaff
> > where you don't get a strong
> > feeling either way. Often candidates are nervous and not
> > quite themselves (offer them a belt of scotch! ;-D).
>=20
> Bad idea.
>=20
> If you are the job hunter, it might loosen you up, but what might come
out
> of
> that?  I've heard some pretty bad stories where a single drink ended
up
> with a
> candidate saying the wrong things or leading to a few more drinks and
> getting
> drunk.
>=20
> If you are the interviewer, (US) federal law prohibits discrimination
> based on
> based religious beliefs or on past alcohol use or abuse.  I can very
> easily
> see a turned-down applicant come back with a lawsuit saying "He
offered me
> a
> drink, he was trying to find out if I was (part of a non-drinking
religion
> | a
> past alcohol abuser )."
>=20
> Either way, it opens up the doors to bad situations.


Ah the wonderous US legal system; I'll scratch your back, you sue me for
assault. I was joking about offering slugs of scotch, but I take your
point. We often take candidates to lunch but it's totally up to the
candidate what they drink. Getting them out of the office atmosphere
helps break the ice.=20

Nick

RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Bryan W. <br...@xm...>]

> where you don't get a strong=20
> feeling either way. Often candidates are nervous and not=20
> quite themselves (offer them a belt of scotch! ;-D).=20

Bad idea.

If you are the job hunter, it might loosen you up, but what might come =
out of
that?  I've heard some pretty bad stories where a single drink ended up =
with a
candidate saying the wrong things or leading to a few more drinks and =
getting
drunk.

If you are the interviewer, (US) federal law prohibits discrimination =
based on
based religious beliefs or on past alcohol use or abuse.  I can very =
easily
see a turned-down applicant come back with a lawsuit saying "He offered =
me a
drink, he was trying to find out if I was (part of a non-drinking =
religion | a
past alcohol abuser )." =20

Either way, it opens up the doors to bad situations.

bryanw.

RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Nick T. <ni...@ro...>]

> On Behalf Of Richard Fabian
> I've just been elevated to tech lead, and as a small company, we need
> good guys first time round (can't waste ages finding out people aren't
> up to the job), so my question is: what do you guys consider important
> when hiring a coder?

That's an interesting question and I like the replies so far. Sometimes
you just click with someone and you know they would be a good bet. A lot
of what you are looking for is categorised as experience, but to dissect
this, I think I look for:

* Good understanding of language syntax and features. If you don't
understand the language you are programming in, how can you define
precisely what you want to do, schedule, find problems and refine. Years
of C++ experience doesn't necessarily mean someone is good at OO or
design, which after all are the reasons for those features.

* Vertical knowledge. Do you know your stuff from high level to
hardware? Often you need to design with performance in mind or fix
hardware abstractions.

* Understanding of the process of making games. You don't have to be a
lead but knowing why a project was successful or failed is important.
Projects rarely succeed just because a team wrote kick ass code. Even
newbies from college have worked on team projects and should have an
idea of what dynamics can cause success and failure.

* Versatility (horizontal knowledge). Programmers rarely stick to one
job for the duration of a project. The greater understanding you have of
the whole, the better you have of the parts.

* Communication skills. Can you explain things in clear, concise manner?
Can you expand on a point? Do you have *insight*? In the event that you
don't know something, do you admit it and say how you'd go about finding
a solution, or do you start making one up (unconvincingly!)?

* People that have the personality skills to fit into a team. This
relies equally on the project management team not creating a hostile
environment. People having hobbies outside the work environment is a
good thing and should be encouraged as is makes people more rounded and
not so bitter about work. Staring at code 24-7 is not good for the soul.
Being able to escape leads to fresh ideas.=20

* Disciplined, focussed, enthusiasm. There's a certain level of
pathological commitment, enthusiasm and determination that makes a good
game developer (N.B. not just programmers). The ability to commit when
necessary, innovate and be self reliant, but in a disciplined manner.
People who write their own rules cause problems.

* Humility is an important human quality to avoid prima donnas.

* Sense of humour! When the shit hits the fan... :)

* An interest in Star Trek. Must at least know Jim's middle name.

I'm certainly don't know everything (reading GD-algorithms confirms
this!!), but I don't have to know everything if we have our bases
covered on our teams. So you're looking for people that fill the gaps
and make you feel confident. You must have a clear picture in your mind
of the hole this person is going to fill in the team (just like if you
were going to buy a player for a soccer team!).

I think an important point is that more than one person interview a
candidate, including different disciplines, e.g. a producer and a
programmer, and maybe even an artist or designer. Also, do a programming
test of some form. Sometimes you end up in the grey zone, where you
don't get a strong feeling either way. Often candidates are nervous and
not quite themselves (offer them a belt of scotch! ;-D). Discussing the
candidate and studying their test after the interview generally swings
your decision one way or the other.=20

Nick

Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Kent Q. <ken...@co...>]

At 09:28 AM 6/7/2004, you wrote:
>I also try to find out how "honest" they are, heh not in terms of being
>liars or criminals, but how willing they are to have opinions, propose their
>own choices, and debate them; some people go too far (opinionated, stubborn,
>not willing to compromise), and some people don't go far enough (waiting for
>you to express a view before they go and nod in agreement).


One thing I do is ask people to bring some code they're proud of to the 
interview. I *hate* programming tests. I think if you ask someone about 
their code and start poking at it, they can either tell you what they did 
and (at least as important) what they didn't do during the design and 
implementation of that code. The other way to push at this is to poke holes 
in their design for a while -- why'd you do this? Wouldn't it have been 
better if you did X instead? That kind of questioning exposes their 
knowledge of the code and design, and also helps you to understand their 
give and take in a discussion. Do they take criticism well? Do they 
interact with you or shut down? If you want a good team member, that kind 
of thing is important.

Of course, I always tell them afterward why I did that, just so they know 
that I'm not always that aggressive in practice. ;-)




----
Kent Quirk
CTO, CogniToy

RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Peter L. <pe...@to...>]

> I don t really  agree with the conclusion , and the history of Mr Carmack
> is the best example (note that i don t know very much about his personnal
> history), IMO we need those cowboys and they re perfect for jobs like lead
> coder .
>

You must have a significantly different definition of 'lead coder' than I
do. A "lead" as the word implies needs to lead the rest of the team in a way
that they can follow. Noel's definition of cowboy makes clear that won't
happen. A 'hero' (again, by his definition) maybe can. Of course these, like
all categories of people, allow for a lot of spillover. If you have a very
competent team, there's room for more cowboy-style coding, because no-one
will be in a position where they can't handle the code. But in most cases,
having a consistent design philosophy throughout the code that's transparent
and easy to follow will make the team as a whole more capable. It's easier
to discuss how each person's tasks can be accomplished if the system's
constructed more simply. Someone once told me that Seymour Cray's big
advantage was that he could hold mental images of larger circuits than
anyone else; it seems a good metaphor for coders too. The interfaces between
components are ideally a lot simpler than the inner workings of those
components - and I suspect that's one characteristic of cowboys: their
systems are bigger and have more internal complexity.
  You can have a cowboy on the team, as long as the real lead can do his
job - which is ensuring that everyone's work integrates well into the common
code base. So the lead better be damn near as good a coder as the cowboy,
without the loner traits, as well as having all the 'people skills' to
manage the personality issues that will certainly arise.

Peter

RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[CAVEY G. <GER...@sg...>]

Hi
>http://www.gamesfromwithin.com

I ve just read the article about the cowboy coders in the game industry
that i found in your website
, it s very interesting and so realistic !
I don t really  agree with the conclusion , and the history of Mr =
Carmack
is the best example (note that i don t know very much about his =
personnal
history), IMO we need those cowboys and they re perfect for jobs like =
lead
coder .
However I agree there s cons like their interest that is generally =
focused
around
the rendering techs (don t ask them to write a dev tool ! ) but i think
common coders
can only produce common product.Can you tell me why quake engine had so =
much
success ?
If you can give the interesting part to your cowboy he will
produce much more than others and quicker , using tricks that one on =
the
team knew !
As a conclusion i guess everybody here will agree with the fact that =
these
cowboys are easily
identified :)

Regards
GC.






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Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Noel L. <nl...@co...>]

On Monday 07 June 2004 02:56 am, Richard Fabian wrote:
> so my question is: what do you guys consider important
> when hiring a coder?

Personally, one of the main things I look for is whether they're learning new 
things on their own. People who don't learn anything new usually either feel 
they have nothing to learn (uh, oh!) or they're not motivated enough to look 
beyond their assigned tasks.

But probably the one single, biggest thing I'm looking for is whether they can 
work as part of a team. A guy can be the best "coder" in the world, but if he 
can't work well with the rest of the team is going to be pretty useless. A 
lot of this is just gut feeling and it requires that personalities "click" 
together.

Once you have those two basis covered, the rest is relatively easy stuff. 
Specific knowledge of languages and APIs comes by pretty easily (remember, 
they're willing to learn new things). 


--Noel
Games from Within
http://www.gamesfromwithin.com

Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Jamie Fowlston wrote:

> The most reliable bad sign i know is just a 'bad feeling'. If someone
> manages to give you a bad feeling over the course of an interview,
> that tends to mean something isn't going to work. I don't think i've
> ever come across a case where someone was hired despite a bad
> feeling, and turned out good.
>
> These aren't terribly scientific or easy to measure, but that's
> people for you :)

This is spot on - it's hard to reject somebody without being able to explain
it in formal terms, but previous history shows that it in fact works. After
a couple years recruiting, you eventually get the confidence to go ahead
with that kind of gut feeling.

Specific skills and knowledge are good things.

I also try to find out how "honest" they are, heh not in terms of being
liars or criminals, but how willing they are to have opinions, propose their
own choices, and debate them; some people go too far (opinionated, stubborn,
not willing to compromise), and some people don't go far enough (waiting for
you to express a view before they go and nod in agreement).

Dealing with a candidate that is nervous in the interview is hard, because,
even if the information you need will still show up, there will be a lot of
noise. :)

Finally, it's very interesting to dig up as much information about their
previous (or current) jobs, and why they decided to move out. Dragons be
there so handle the issue with a lot of care because it can be a touchy
subject, but you can find out a lot about his attitude in a team / company
environment.

You will get as much information from what they say as from how they say it,
what issues they avoid, and how they react.

-- 
  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

In my experience, particularly good signs are:

- They're keen (at least about some aspect of the work, if not all of it :)
- When you dig at their knowledge (ask what they're most proud of, how it
worked, right down to the basics etc.) they have all the details and really
know how it worked. If they start getting vague about how some bit of it
worked, that's a bad sign.

Of course, you'll also want to know that they can work in a team (more and
more important these days, talented but antisocial individuals are rarely
worth the effort), and that they have the technical knowledge you deem
relevant (increasingly, i've refused to hire people who i felt didn't have
good maths skills).

The most reliable bad sign i know is just a 'bad feeling'. If someone
manages to give you a bad feeling over the course of an interview, that
tends to mean something isn't going to work. I don't think i've ever come
across a case where someone was hired despite a bad feeling, and turned out
good.

These aren't terribly scientific or easy to measure, but that's people for
you :)

You also need to be ready to get rid of the duffers, 'cos you will recruit
some :)

Jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Richard Fabian
Sent: 07 June 2004 10:57
To: gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...


I've just been elevated to tech lead, and as a small company, we need
good guys first time round (can't waste ages finding out people aren't
up to the job), so my question is: what do you guys consider important
when hiring a coder?

obvious things i can think of are : can code, can work to deadlines,
knows own limitations...

but what things have you found that are "always good signs" when hiring?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
main(){char*a="main(){char*a=%c%s%c;printf(a,34,a,34);}";printf(a,34,a,3
4);}
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----



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Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Jorrit T. <jor...@uz...>]

Richard Fabian wrote:

>I've just been elevated to tech lead, and as a small company, we need
>good guys first time round (can't waste ages finding out people aren't
>up to the job), so my question is: what do you guys consider important
>when hiring a coder?
>
>obvious things i can think of are : can code, can work to deadlines,
>knows own limitations...
>
>but what things have you found that are "always good signs" when hiring?
>  
>
I only manage an Open Source project (Crystal Space) so I don't really 
'hire' people
but I feel that one of the most important things to look for when you 
hire someone is
'motivation'.

Greetings,

[GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Richard F. <gd...@th...>]

I've just been elevated to tech lead, and as a small company, we need
good guys first time round (can't waste ages finding out people aren't
up to the job), so my question is: what do you guys consider important
when hiring a coder?

obvious things i can think of are : can code, can work to deadlines,
knows own limitations...

but what things have you found that are "always good signs" when hiring?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
main(){char*a="main(){char*a=%c%s%c;printf(a,34,a,34);}";printf(a,34,a,3
4);} 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

RE: [GD-General] Standard wrapper APIs for 3D scenegraphs?

[Garett B. <gt...@st...>]

> I'd also like to mention OpenSG as another solution
> I've come across:
> http://www.opensg.org/motivation.EN.html

Does anyone know how or whether OpenSG and OpenSceneGraph are related?  They
appear to be entirely separate, as I can't find any mention of the other on
either website.

Regards,
Garett

RE: [GD-General] Standard wrapper APIs for 3D scenegraphs?

[Crosbie F. <cr...@cy...>]

> From: George Warner
> I'd consider Quesa , it's an open-source project to implement=20
> QuickDraw 3D.
> Currently it's build on top of Direct3D and/or OpenGL. It's=20
> very complete and extensible.

Thanks George.

You answered my question.

I'd also like to mention OpenSG as another solution I've come across:
http://www.opensg.org/motivation.EN.html

re: [GD-General] Standard wrapper APIs for 3D scenegraphs?

[George W. <ge...@ap...>]

On Sun, 23 May 2004 18:28:14 +0100, "Crosbie Fitch"
<cr...@cy...> wrote:
> There are umpteen APIs for traversing a 3D scene. Many of them =
> proprietary and oriented toward particular hardware or a particular 3D =
> graphics application.
>
> I'm thinking of APIs for Max, Maya, OpenGL, Direct3D, RenderWare, Open =
> Inventor, etc.
>
> Has anyone (perhaps with a view to making a game or tool portable across =
> 3D APIs) abstracted one or more of these APIs into a wrapper that =
> isolates the game/tool code from the proprietary 3D API?

I'd consider Quesa , it's an open-source project to implement QuickDraw 3D.
Currently it's build on top of Direct3D and/or OpenGL. It's very complete
and extensible.

See: <http://www.quesa.org/>

-- 
Enjoy,
George Warner,
Schizophrenic Optimization Scientists
Apple Developer Technical Support (DTS)

[GD-General] Organizing source control

[Tom S. <to...@si...>]

 I'm in the process of evaluating Subversion and reconsidering the structure
of our source control repository.  We have the typical resources; code, 3rd
party libraries and tools, art files, etc.  How do others keep their
repositories organized for game development?  If you happen to be using
Subversion or a similar product do you keep separate folders for the trunk,
branches, and tags?

  Tom

[GD-General] Standard wrapper APIs for 3D scenegraphs?

[Crosbie F. <cr...@cy...>]

There are umpteen APIs for traversing a 3D scene. Many of them =
proprietary and oriented toward particular hardware or a particular 3D =
graphics application.

I'm thinking of APIs for Max, Maya, OpenGL, Direct3D, RenderWare, Open =
Inventor, etc.

Has anyone (perhaps with a view to making a game or tool portable across =
3D APIs) abstracted one or more of these APIs into a wrapper that =
isolates the game/tool code from the proprietary 3D API?

I know I have. However, I'm wondering if anyone knows of a de facto =
'rolls-royce' of 3D API abstractions that supports a variety of existing =
APIs and is designed to be easy to customise to support any number of =
additional 3D APIs?

Such a wrapper would enable iteration over a 3D scene graph, the ability =
to extract any amount of 3D information (depending upon its =
availability) and make modifications to any part of it.

I'm just asking this, just in case it's already been done and I don't =
have to do it (cos I'm about to).

I know one could take any existing API of one's choice and then simply =
use that as the basis for a wrapper around any other API, however, I'm =
wondering if someone has specifically created an API carefully designed =
to make wrapping other APIs easy.

I'm hoping someone will say "Sure. You want to check out the Universal =
3D API wrapper project at www.universal3d.org" or something like that. =
;-)

Re: RE: [GD-General] Photoshop Blend Modes vs. 3D blend modes

[Ignacio <cas...@ya...>]

On Thursday 20 May 2004 15:14, Tim Rennie wrote:
> Wrong way round :]
>
> blend =3D SRC_ALPHA / ONE_MINUS_SRC_ALPHA
> filter =3D ZERO / SRC_COLOR =3D DST_COLOR / ZERO

right :-)

=2D-=20
Ignacio Casta=F1o
cas...@ya...

RE: [GD-General] Photoshop Blend Modes vs. 3D blend modes

[Tim R. <ti...@ar...>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ignacio Casta=F1o [mailto:cas...@ya...]
> IIRC quake3 used aliases for the most common blend modes:=20
> add, blend and=20
> filter.
>=20
> add =3D ONE / ONE
> blend =3D ZERO / SRC_COLOR =3D DST_COLOR / ZERO
> filter =3D SRC_ALPHA / ONE_MINUS_SRC_ALPHA

Wrong way round :]

blend =3D SRC_ALPHA / ONE_MINUS_SRC_ALPHA
filter =3D ZERO / SRC_COLOR =3D DST_COLOR / ZERO

Tim

Re: [GD-General] Photoshop Blend Modes vs. 3D blend modes

[Ignacio <cas...@ya...>]

On Wednesday 19 May 2004 22:21, Troy Gilbert wrote:
> I want to provide a more artist-friendly naming of the various texture
> blend modes. There's just something about INVSRCALPHA / SRCALPHA that
> doesn't scream out "Normal" blend mode. I figured Photoshop's names for
> various blend modes are fairly intuitive (or at least are widely understo=
od
> by artists). I realize there aren't equivalents for all of them (at least
> not without resorting to a pixel shader), but I'm curious if anyone has a
> list of the ones that do map directly? Or in general, artist friendly
> descriptions of the standard 3D hardware blend modes?

IIRC quake3 used aliases for the most common blend modes: add, blend and=20
filter.

add =3D ONE / ONE
blend =3D ZERO / SRC_COLOR =3D DST_COLOR / ZERO
filter =3D SRC_ALPHA / ONE_MINUS_SRC_ALPHA

Hope that helps

=2D-=20
Ignacio Casta=F1o
cas...@ya...

[GD-General] Photoshop Blend Modes vs. 3D blend modes

[Troy G. <Tr...@cs...>]

I want to provide a more artist-friendly naming of the various texture blend
modes. There's just something about INVSRCALPHA / SRCALPHA that doesn't
scream out "Normal" blend mode. I figured Photoshop's names for various
blend modes are fairly intuitive (or at least are widely understood by
artists). I realize there aren't equivalents for all of them (at least not
without resorting to a pixel shader), but I'm curious if anyone has a list
of the ones that do map directly? Or in general, artist friendly
descriptions of the standard 3D hardware blend modes?

Thanks,

Troy Gilbert
Developer Relations
Criterion Software
www.csl.com 

[GD-General] Comparing movie vs. game industry production models

[Brian H. <ho...@bo...>]

I spent some time writing an essay trying to compare to the production=
 models of the movie and game industries and seeing where elements of the=
 former can apply to the latter.  Forgive the fractured nature of some of=
 the structure, it's well over 7000 words and I got burned out on it on my=
 third revision.  That said, some might like the comparison and contrast of=
 the two industries.

http://www.bookofhook.com/Article/GameDevelopment/GameandMovieProductionCom.=
html