gamedevlists-general — List for discussing general game development issues

Re: [GD-General] Clean way of generalizing CDECL

[<cas...@ya...>]

Why don't you try:

void __attribute__((cdecl)) foo( int x, int y, int z );

:)

--
Ignacio Castaño
cas...@ya...


--- Brian Hook <ho...@bo...> wrote: 
> I'd like to be able specify CDECL in a cross-platform manner.  On most
> x86 compilers there's just the __cdecl keywod:
> 
> void __cdecl foo( int x, int y, int z );
> 
> GCC, of course, does it completely differently:
> 
> void foo( int x, int y, int z ) __attribute((cdecl));
> 
> So a simple #define won't work.  Now, you can do a kind of convoluted
> thing using a define, but damn, it's REAL ugly.
> 
> Is there a cleaner way of doing this?
> 


		
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Re: [GD-General] Clean way of generalizing CDECL

[brian s. <pud...@po...>]

I never came up with anything better than CDECL_PRE and CDECL_POST but
that solution sure won't win any beauty contests :).

What did the MingW people do for this?  All of the Windows API
functions are stdcall, and surely they didn't modify every Windows
header to change the declarations.  They must be able parse them
as-is.  Maybe there's a solution to be found there?

--brian

> I'd like to be able specify CDECL in a cross-platform manner.  On most
> x86 compilers there's just the __cdecl keywod:
>
> void __cdecl foo( int x, int y, int z );
>
> GCC, of course, does it completely differently:
>
> void foo( int x, int y, int z ) __attribute((cdecl));
>
> So a simple #define won't work.  Now, you can do a kind of convoluted
> thing using a define, but damn, it's REAL ugly.
>
> Is there a cleaner way of doing this?
>

Re: [GD-General] Clean way of generalizing CDECL

[Aaron D. <ri...@in...>]

I've always just used this in my header files:

#ifdef __cplusplus
extern "C" {
#endif

// prototypes

#ifdef __cplusplus
}
#endif

Doesn't it do the same thing?

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:10 am, Brian Hook wrote:
> I'd like to be able specify CDECL in a cross-platform manner.  On most
> x86 compilers there's just the __cdecl keywod:
>
> void __cdecl foo( int x, int y, int z );
>
> GCC, of course, does it completely differently:
>
> void foo( int x, int y, int z ) __attribute((cdecl));
>
> So a simple #define won't work.  Now, you can do a kind of convoluted
> thing using a define, but damn, it's REAL ugly.
>
> Is there a cleaner way of doing this?
>
>
>
>
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-- 
- Aaron

"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground."

[GD-General] Clean way of generalizing CDECL

[Brian H. <ho...@bo...>]

I'd like to be able specify CDECL in a cross-platform manner.  On most 
x86 compilers there's just the __cdecl keywod:

void __cdecl foo( int x, int y, int z );

GCC, of course, does it completely differently:

void foo( int x, int y, int z ) __attribute((cdecl));

So a simple #define won't work.  Now, you can do a kind of convoluted 
thing using a define, but damn, it's REAL ugly.

Is there a cleaner way of doing this?

Re: [GD-General] Audio latency

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Brian Hook wrote:

> For a beat matching game it would seem that you'd need extremely low
> latency, right up there with that of professional audio software
> (8-16ms or less).

Input is inherently laggy, so the measure of professional sound equipment is
not really applicable. For most users, I think a latency of 75-100ms between
input and sound is very acceptable. Those with a trained ear, and those
looking for it, will probably notice up to 40-50ms. Those are the ballpark
figures I'd start with.

-- 
  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

Re: [GD-General] Audio latency

[Thatcher U. <tu...@tu...>]

On Jun 30, 2004 at 12:44 -0400, Brian Hook wrote:
> > I'm thinking DDR here (Yes, I dance, in my living room, with a
> > computer.) there is no latency in the sense that it's one stream of
> > music and done.
> 
> Right, the idea I had was beat matching but where you actually play a
> sound on the beat instead of just matching the music that's there.
> I'm concerned that real latency issues are going to prevent that from
> being possible, except with a very hand coded, single platform
> implementation.

I think you should definitely be able to work around a reasonable
amount of latency using some game/audio design.  For example, let's
say you want to play a special drum sound when the user hits the
button at the right time.  But due to output audio latency and input
processing latency, you may not find out about the button-press until
after you need to start playing the drum sound.  So one trick would be
to design your game so that there is always a "null beat" sound that
plays when the user doesn't press the button.  Now, design the null
beat and the real beat so that the first 50ms, say, sound exactly the
same.  Then you're golden, you have enough time to substitute the rest
of either the null beat or the real beat right after the initial
attack.  Maybe this makes the real beat less satisfying to the player,
maybe not; that would have to be tested.

Or maybe a longish constant latency isn't actually so bad.
E.g. electric guitarists sometimes stand pretty far from their amps.
Sound travels about 1 foot per millisecond, so 20 feet ~= 20 ms.  I
don't know any drummers that stand 20 feet from their drums though.

It would be interesting to make a latency-adjustable virtual drum kit
and see how it feels.

-- 
Thatcher Ulrich
http://tulrich.com

Re: [GD-General] Audio latency

[Brian H. <ho...@bo...>]

> Professional audio guys scoff at anything above 3-4 ms

Well, maybe TODAY they do, but I remember not too long ago that if you 
could get down to 15ms that you were considered doing great.  In fact, 
even today "zero-latency monitoring" is considered a must have.

But I digress.

> professional audio software achieve this by using professional
> grade audio APIs like ASIO - which the drivers for consumer audio
> cards don't support (or lie about supporting them - yes, I'm
> talking about you, NVIDIA!).

Right, there are up to three layers depending on the platform:

- the application:
   1.  Delay between input and dispatching sound
   2.  Delay between dispatching sound and delivering to API

- the API
   1.  Delay between receiving sound and sending to hardware

- the hardware
   1.  Delay between receiving buffer and generating output

Let's say you have a steady 60Hz application.  On average the latency 
to _detect_ a key press is about 8 ms.  So that's your floor, on 
average.

If you're doing software mixing you might be looking at an average of 
5-50ms of latency depending on how much buffering you need/want (which 
in turn depends on the underlying system's hardware).  Let's call it a 
10ms buffer with an audio worker thread that sleeps at 5ms intervals.

So now we're at 18ms on average if we're doing our own mixing.

Then the API receives an updated buffer, and that in turn probably 
gets run through a software mixer before heading out to the hardware.  
Then the hardware gets a shot at it, etc.

In the theoretical best case you've got samples and you're mixing 
straight into the hardware's DMA output buffer, but I don't believe 
that's reliable in a cross-platform manner (one reason I use software 
mixing and audio servicing threads -- I just flat out don't trust 
drivers or APIs anymore after seeing the most trivial things break, 
e.g. DSound notifications).

So call it 25ms latency if you're doing well, and significantly worse 
if not.

I'm not sure if that's acceptable for a rhythm oriented game, which is 
probably most closely analogous to fighting games.

Feh.

Brian

RE: [GD-General] Audio latency

[Brian H. <ho...@bo...>]

> I'm thinking DDR here (Yes, I dance, in my living room, with a
> computer.) there is no latency in the sense that it's one stream of
> music and done.

Right, the idea I had was beat matching but where you actually play a 
sound on the beat instead of just matching the music that's there.  
I'm concerned that real latency issues are going to prevent that from 
being possible, except with a very hand coded, single platform 
implementation.

Brian

Re: [GD-General] Audio latency

[Ivan-Assen I. <iva...@gm...>]

> For a beat matching game it would seem that you'd need extremely low
> latency, right up there with that of professional audio software (8-16ms
> or less).

Professional audio guys scoff at anything above 3-4 ms, and
professional audio software achieve this by using professional grade
audio APIs like ASIO - which the drivers for consumer audio cards
don't support (or lie about supporting them - yes, I'm talking about
you, NVIDIA!).

Even for something like DDR, I would guess you could live with
something on the order of 20-30 ms, though. You can play the piano
with latencies in that range - although it gets on your nerves - but
with the inherent latency in something like moving your foot to the
adjacent foot pad, I guess DDR would be much, much more forgiving.

RE: [GD-General] Audio latency

[Lewin, G. <gl...@ea...>]

Not sure exactly what you are doing, but I would have the latency a
fixed value, and play the music that much sooner.

I'm thinking DDR here (Yes, I dance, in my living room, with a
computer.) there is no latency in the sense that it's one stream of
music and done.

If you want to play an effect each time a button is pressed, on a pc, I
think you will find you are pretty much screwed, but I hope you find
otherwise :)=20


_________________________________________
Gareth Lewin - http://www.garethlewin.com

"Facts are useless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even
remotely true. Facts shmacts!" -- Homer Jay Simpson.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hook [mailto:ho...@bo...]=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 12:33 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-General] Audio latency

I'm curious, how much latency do you guys accept from your audio
subsystems?  With the amount of layering that occurs, e.g. software
application mixing which in turn might go into an API mixing system
which in turn goes to a hardware mixer, I can see latencies going up to
the hundreds of milliseconds.

With my old audio stuff I could crank my buffer up to 500ms, and that
was very...bad...feeling.

For a beat matching game it would seem that you'd need extremely low
latency, right up there with that of professional audio software (8-16ms
or less).=20

Thoughts?




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[GD-General] Audio latency

[Brian H. <ho...@bo...>]

I'm curious, how much latency do you guys accept from your audio 
subsystems?  With the amount of layering that occurs, e.g. software 
application mixing which in turn might go into an API mixing system 
which in turn goes to a hardware mixer, I can see latencies going up 
to the hundreds of milliseconds.

With my old audio stuff I could crank my buffer up to 500ms, and that 
was very...bad...feeling.

For a beat matching game it would seem that you'd need extremely low 
latency, right up there with that of professional audio software 
(8-16ms or less). 

Thoughts?

[GD-General] Re: multiply defined functions in libs

[Andras B. <bn...@ma...>]

[note: I moved this thread to gamedevlists-windows]

I'm also fighting with this problem right now. For me the linking error only
happened in the debug build (couldn't figure out why). What I did to solve
this was to link against LIBC instead of LIBCD (since I don't really need
the debug version of that library anyway).. So now I have my own malloc in
place, but this brings some other problems:

WinMainCRTStartup calls malloc to allocate some memory, and then uses the
Win32 API function ::HeapSize to query the size of that same memory block..

So it assumes, that malloc uses ::HeapAlloc with the handle _crtheap, but of
course, in this case, it does not (since it is my routine that gets called
instead)

So, I'm also stuck.. What can I do? Do I have to roll my own crt routines??
This sounds a bit too hardcore. I would have thought that many people use
their own memory manager. But how do they solve these things??

Any ideas are welcome!

Thanks,


Andras

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On Behalf Of
> Brett Bibby
> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:58 PM
> To: Gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-General] multiply defined functions in libs
> 
> I have no idea where to ask this quesiton, so I guess general might be
> okay.
> 
> Recently I have switched our memory management to Doug Lea's malloc and so
> far so good.  The biggest problem is that I'm trying to drop in and
> replace
> the normal ansi calls.  This generally works although with different side
> effects on different platforms.  For example, CodeWarrior's linker emits a
> warning that multiple "malloc" symbols are defined on Win32, but correctly
> chooses to use mine anyway if I set the link order correctly, and emits no
> warnings at all on PS2 and GCN and seems to use mine silently (although
> the
> original malloc is listed in the linker map, just unused!).  On MSVC it is
> an error and won't build the Win32 version.  Since we have 18 target
> builds
> across mutliple platforms this is messy.  I can't remove the offending
> libraries without also removing a bunch of needed functions as they are
> built into a single library.
> 
> Is there any sort of pragma or some other way to make sure that all
> references to memory management functions only see my definition?  It
> seems
> that many people must have done this before....
> 
> If not, the only way I see to fix this properly is to build custom release
> and debug libs from each platform's source and exclude the functions I
> want
> to remove <shudder>.
> 
> Brett
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: GNOME Foundation
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SV: [GD-General] multiply defined functions in libs

[Stefan B. <Ste...@di...>]

  Well, on unix-y linkers, the linker picks the first object module it =
finds a symbol in so the order in which you specify your libraries on =
the linker command line determines which one will be used.
=20
  The only really safe way to be really really sure that only your =
memory allocators get linked in is to remove all memory allocation =
functions from libc though, since there are several "secret" allocation =
functions that might get called from within other libc code (malloc_r =
etc). Personally I found the GNU LD wrapping options (I think it's =
'--wrap-xxxxx') very useful for stuff like memory tracking.
=20
  As for a general solution which fits all toolsets and platforms, I =
don't believe one exists since it's so dependent on the linker/runtime =
model.
=20
/Stefan

________________________________

Fr=E5n: gam...@li... genom Brett =
Bibby
Skickat: on 2004-06-09 05:58
Till: Gam...@li...
=C4mne: [GD-General] multiply defined functions in libs



I have no idea where to ask this quesiton, so I guess general might be =
okay.

Recently I have switched our memory management to Doug Lea's malloc and =
so
far so good.  The biggest problem is that I'm trying to drop in and =
replace
the normal ansi calls.  This generally works although with different =
side
effects on different platforms.  For example, CodeWarrior's linker emits =
a
warning that multiple "malloc" symbols are defined on Win32, but =
correctly
chooses to use mine anyway if I set the link order correctly, and emits =
no
warnings at all on PS2 and GCN and seems to use mine silently (although =
the
original malloc is listed in the linker map, just unused!).  On MSVC it =
is
an error and won't build the Win32 version.  Since we have 18 target =
builds
across mutliple platforms this is messy.  I can't remove the offending
libraries without also removing a bunch of needed functions as they are
built into a single library.

Is there any sort of pragma or some other way to make sure that all
references to memory management functions only see my definition?  It =
seems
that many people must have done this before....

If not, the only way I see to fix this properly is to build custom =
release
and debug libs from each platform's source and exclude the functions I =
want
to remove <shudder>.

Brett



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RE: [GD-General] multiply defined functions in libs

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

Don't think there's a single consistent way to do it cross-platform, but
generally there's a way to substitute symbols for other symbols, etc., at
link time. In gcc, you're after the defsym related functionality of ld
(iirc), and i'm pretty sure i remember seeing something similar in the MS
visual C++ stuff.

Sorry i'm a bit vague, not something i've ever actually had to use :)

Jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Brett Bibby
Sent: 09 June 2004 04:58
To: Gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-General] multiply defined functions in libs


I have no idea where to ask this quesiton, so I guess general might be okay.

Recently I have switched our memory management to Doug Lea's malloc and so
far so good.  The biggest problem is that I'm trying to drop in and replace
the normal ansi calls.  This generally works although with different side
effects on different platforms.  For example, CodeWarrior's linker emits a
warning that multiple "malloc" symbols are defined on Win32, but correctly
chooses to use mine anyway if I set the link order correctly, and emits no
warnings at all on PS2 and GCN and seems to use mine silently (although the
original malloc is listed in the linker map, just unused!).  On MSVC it is
an error and won't build the Win32 version.  Since we have 18 target builds
across mutliple platforms this is messy.  I can't remove the offending
libraries without also removing a bunch of needed functions as they are
built into a single library.

Is there any sort of pragma or some other way to make sure that all
references to memory management functions only see my definition?  It seems
that many people must have done this before....

If not, the only way I see to fix this properly is to build custom release
and debug libs from each platform's source and exclude the functions I want
to remove <shudder>.

Brett



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[GD-General] multiply defined functions in libs

[Brett B. <res...@ga...>]

I have no idea where to ask this quesiton, so I guess general might be okay.

Recently I have switched our memory management to Doug Lea's malloc and so
far so good.  The biggest problem is that I'm trying to drop in and replace
the normal ansi calls.  This generally works although with different side
effects on different platforms.  For example, CodeWarrior's linker emits a
warning that multiple "malloc" symbols are defined on Win32, but correctly
chooses to use mine anyway if I set the link order correctly, and emits no
warnings at all on PS2 and GCN and seems to use mine silently (although the
original malloc is listed in the linker map, just unused!).  On MSVC it is
an error and won't build the Win32 version.  Since we have 18 target builds
across mutliple platforms this is messy.  I can't remove the offending
libraries without also removing a bunch of needed functions as they are
built into a single library.

Is there any sort of pragma or some other way to make sure that all
references to memory management functions only see my definition?  It seems
that many people must have done this before....

If not, the only way I see to fix this properly is to build custom release
and debug libs from each platform's source and exclude the functions I want
to remove <shudder>.

Brett

Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Noel L. <nl...@co...>]

On Tuesday 08 June 2004 08:43 am, CAVEY GERARD wrote:
> Someone here spoke about the stress during an interview :
> do you think it is really important , do you think the social aspect of the
> coder is really important ?Will you deny a good engineer because he doesn t
> talk so much ...

I'd say the social aspect is extremely important. Game development is a team 
activity. Any programmer/coder/engineer in a functional team is going to have 
to interact frequently with other programmers/artists/designers. Someone who 
can't interact in a normal way with the rest of the team, even in situations 
of stress and personal critique, could be a liability to the team.

But that's very different than not talking very much or not liking the same TV 
shows as the rest of the team.

While on the subject, something else to look for in a team member that I don't 
think anybody has mentioned: Diversity.

Getting people from different backgrounds, different companies (very 
important!), who approach problems in different ways, think differently, have 
different hobbies, read different books, and play different games can only 
strengthen your team in the long run. You just have to keep them from killing 
each other :-)


--Noel
Games from Within
http://www.gamesfromwithin.com

Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Antoine C. <a.c...@fr...>]

CAVEY GERARD wrote:

>>I'd say that's a result of working with bad programmers.
>>    
>>
>Well the question here is how do you define a good programmer ?
>Obviously none of us is perfect (except Colin :) ).
>Someone here spoke about the stress during an interview :
>do you think it is really important , do you think the social aspect of the
>coder is really important ?Will you deny a good engineer because he doesn t
>talk so much ...
>
>  
>
I'm not a recruiter, but I think being minimally communicative is 
important to fit in a team.
However, there are people who need a little time to get used to a new 
work environment and new coworkers.
It's my case. I'm about as open, relaxed and joking around after the 
first few weeks that I'm an autist barely able to even articulate 
"hello" the first weeks. And I have even no idea why.

[GD-General] Re: what you look for in a coder...

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

Nick Trout wrote:

>>scott
>>On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 02:57:46PM -0700, Nick Trout wrote:
>>
>>>* An interest in Star Trek. Must at least know Jim's middle name.
>>>
>>
>>I don't even know Jim's first name!  And besides, don't you want at
>>least one member on your team who can introduce you to girls?  Or
>> protect
> 
>>you from the wallet inspectors?  ;)
> 
> 
> It's Tiberius! (I had to look it up - the shame).

I think everyone on my current team would have flunked that question :-) 
But that's probably because until a few years ago, Trek wasn't shown on 
norwegian television, so all the geeks here suffer a huge cultural deficit.

Having been raised on all flavours of Trek, and grown up with two 
Trekkie sisters, this is quite strange. But if you interview any 
norwegians, Nick, cut them some slack :-)

Enno
-- 
Tell you what. Let's just issue a mandatory warning at the startup of
every Perl script that says:
"Don't be stupid."
--Larry Wall

Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Mike W. <mi...@ge...>]

lol yeah i was gonna say something, but thought i might get lynched for 
blaspheming startrek ;}

scott wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 02:57:46PM -0700, Nick Trout wrote:
> 
>>* An interest in Star Trek. Must at least know Jim's middle name.
>>
> 
> 
> I don't even know Jim's first name!  And besides, don't you want at 
> least one member on your team who can introduce you to girls?  Or protect
> you from the wallet inspectors?  ;)
> 
> scott
> 

-- 
Mike Wuetherick
Gekido Design Group Inc
www.gekidodesigns.com
(604) 872-6970

RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Nick T. <ni...@ro...>]

> scott
> On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 02:57:46PM -0700, Nick Trout wrote:
> >
> > * An interest in Star Trek. Must at least know Jim's middle name.
> >
> I don't even know Jim's first name!  And besides, don't you want at
> least one member on your team who can introduce you to girls?  Or
protect
> you from the wallet inspectors?  ;)

It's Tiberius! (I had to look it up - the shame).

http://www.starfleetlibrary.com/bios/james_t_kirk.htm

I have noticed an unusual interest in Star Trek amongst programmers,
well, actually developers, in the past. I attribute this (jokingly), and
the seemingly lacking personality skills of _some_ developers to
borderline autism. However, that's not always a detrimental comment! See
this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3380569.stm

Autism is much higher in men than women. The following link is
interesting:

<quote>
"Are there essential differences between the male and female brain? My
theory is that the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy,
and that the male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding
and building systems. I call it the empathising-systemising (E-S)
theory."

[...]

"Is there an explanation for autism?=20

I argue that people with autism may have an extreme of the male brain -
good at systemising, very bad at empathising - and that studying autism
with E-S theory in mind, can help increase our understanding of the
condition.

Two largest sub-groups of autism are classic autism, and Asperger
syndrome. Both share certain features: a difficulty in developing social
relationships; a difficulty in communication; the presence of unusually
strong, narrow interests; and a strong adherence to routines."
</quote>

See "They just can't help it":
http://www.aetheronline.com/mario/Eye-Openers/women_vs_men.htm

and there is a test: :-)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,937443,00.html

I'm merely making an observation here. I don't think this is unique to
the games industry either. I'm just pointing out a personality type that
some of us may recognise. Hell, we might even recognise these traits in
ourselves.


> CAVEY GERARD
> >I'd say that's a result of working with bad programmers.
>
> Someone here spoke about the stress during an interview :
> do you think it is really important , do you think the social aspect
of
> the
> coder is really important ?Will you deny a good engineer because he
doesnt
> talk so much ...

I know I've messed up interviews and exams in the past because of
nerves. Exams are unfortunate because you don't get a second chance. If
you're unsure you should give someone a second interview, at least phone
them up.

I would definitely hire someone who was quiet but answered all my
questions. We have some great, diligent programmers who hardly say a
word, but listen and contribute. It takes all sorts to make a world.

Nick

RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

I'd agree with what someone else said re. nervousness: it puts a lot of
noise in the signal, makes it difficult to know who they really are.

The social aspect is important, at least as a hygiene factor; i.e. it's not
vital that someone contributes massively to the social side, but it is
important they don't detract from it.

There are some people i just don't get on with very well (although i'm sure
they'll find some group of people they'll get on fine with), and that's the
last thing you need every day during a crunch period. It doesn't matter so
much if someone doesn't talk much, just so long as when they do they don't
piss everyone off :)

Jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
CAVEY GERARD
Sent: 08 June 2004 16:43
To: 'gam...@li...'
Subject: RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...


>I'd say that's a result of working with bad programmers.
Well the question here is how do you define a good programmer ?
Obviously none of us is perfect (except Colin :) ).
Someone here spoke about the stress during an interview :
do you think it is really important , do you think the social aspect of the
coder is really important ?Will you deny a good engineer because he doesn t
talk so much ...

GC.




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RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[CAVEY G. <GER...@sg...>]

>I'd say that's a result of working with bad programmers.
Well the question here is how do you define a good programmer ?
Obviously none of us is perfect (except Colin :) ).
Someone here spoke about the stress during an interview :
do you think it is really important , do you think the social aspect of the
coder is really important ?Will you deny a good engineer because he doesn t
talk so much ...

GC.




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Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont
confidentiels et etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires.
Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite. 
Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration. 
SG Asset Management et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au titre
de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.

Decouvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site
www.sgam.fr 

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intended solely for the addressees.
Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited. 
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RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Richard F. <gd...@th...>]

I concur.
no matter how good Mr Fahey may actually be, the problem of pride versus
humility is a tough one.
You don't want little cowering programmers that never question your
authority do you, but at the same time, you don't want a bolshy "i know
best" kind of guy.

We had a programmer come in late on our project "I'm a great
programmer", he said, "Worked on games like F1GP4", and indeed he was
fast at coding. The thing was, he caused quite considerable time loss
due to hacking the game "to make it work for the milestone". He also
left in some legacy inconsistencies that only came out in the sequel (by
the way this really wasn't a game worth rewriting from scratch)
I'm not saying that he was a bad coder, we all make mistakes (apart from
Mr Fahey, wink wink), but he did cause us greif in the long run, and if
you like working for your company, and you like your company working,
thats the run that matters the most.

So on reflection, i find it hard to justify his presence on the project.
We would have been far better off had we introduced a cheaper (agency
rates are horrendous) coder, earlier on in the schedule.

But it wasn't up to me then.

Tis now.

So I will.

------------------
On the other hand
I may be talking
complete drivel.
------------------ 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li... 
> [mailto:gam...@li...] On 
> Behalf Of Javier Arevalo
> Sent: 08 June 2004 03:52 PM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...
> 
> 
> Colin Fahey wrote:
> 
> > I consider myself an extremely good "coder" and "software 
> engineer". I 
> > cheerfully assisted several teams in reaching project 
> goals, and I was 
> > liked by fellow programmers and by other members of the 
> team (such as 
> > artists, managers, hardware engineers, etc).
> >
> > I only mention those things to support my assertion that 
> the following 
> > opinions are meaningful:
> 
> If you told me that during an interview you'd be in serious 
> trouble. Ahh the irony! :-)
> 
> -- 
>   Javier Arevalo
>   Pyro Studios
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: GNOME Foundation
> Hackers Unite!  GUADEC: The world's #1 Open Source Desktop 
> Event. GNOME Users and Developers European Conference, 
> 28-30th June in Norway http://2004/guadec.org 
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> Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
> 

RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Mat N. \(BUNGIE\) <mat...@mi...>]

I'd say that's a result of working with bad programmers.

MSN

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...] On Behalf Of
Jamie Fowlston
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 8:12 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

The bit that really made me sit up was this:

<colin>
that's how I regard most other programmers: sometimes well-intentioned,
but
mostly liabilities
</colin>

:)

Jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Javier Arevalo
Sent: 08 June 2004 15:52
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...


Colin Fahey wrote:

> I consider myself an extremely good "coder" and "software engineer".
> I cheerfully assisted several teams in reaching project goals, and I
> was liked by fellow programmers and by other members of the team
> (such as artists, managers, hardware engineers, etc).
>
> I only mention those things to support my assertion that the
> following opinions are meaningful:

If you told me that during an interview you'd be in serious trouble. Ahh
the
irony! :-)

--
  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios



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RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

The bit that really made me sit up was this:

<colin>
that's how I regard most other programmers: sometimes well-intentioned, but
mostly liabilities
</colin>

:)

Jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Javier Arevalo
Sent: 08 June 2004 15:52
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...


Colin Fahey wrote:

> I consider myself an extremely good "coder" and "software engineer".
> I cheerfully assisted several teams in reaching project goals, and I
> was liked by fellow programmers and by other members of the team
> (such as artists, managers, hardware engineers, etc).
>
> I only mention those things to support my assertion that the
> following opinions are meaningful:

If you told me that during an interview you'd be in serious trouble. Ahh the
irony! :-)

--
  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios



-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.Net email is sponsored by: GNOME Foundation
Hackers Unite!  GUADEC: The world's #1 Open Source Desktop Event.
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