gamedevlists-general — List for discussing general game development issues

[GD-General] Program for managing project, stuff, etc.

[Pavel T. <sa...@ro...>]

Hello,

Could someone assist with choosing programm for managing project,
stuff, time (deadlines, etc), etc.
I have tried MS Project 2002, but seems like it's not working good for
me with a lot of small tasks.
So, are there any good alternatives for managing project (lot of small
tasks for different persons, departments), to manage cooperation
between departments (like, that tasks are dependable on another
tasks). That are the main requirements for such programm.

Also, what programm are you using for managing project?

Thanks in advance.

-- 
Best regards,
 Pavel Tumik                          mailto:sa...@ro...

Re: [GD-General] Offset a void pointer

[Richard F. <ra...@gm...>]

i assume its not faster, but i personally think its better C++
(activley using these kinds of thing keeps your mind where it needs to
be to think out better solutions to more complex problems)

for example, I use ampersand suffixed return values for my container
classes that implement operator[]. that way you can assign stuff to
indexes.

so really it just boils down to what you're comfortable with, with te
caveat that maybe you should be comfortable with using cast to lvalue.


On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:04:35 -0700, Dan Thompson
<da...@ar...> wrote:
> Is there any problem with:
> 
> BufferPtr = (char*)BufferPtr + stride;
> 
> ? Compiles for me... certainly easier to read than (char*&)BufferPtr. Is
> one subtly faster than the in a way I'm not aware?
> 
> -Dan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Richard Fabian wrote:
> 
> >just add an ampersand to your cast to make it a reference pointer not
> >just a pointer
> >
> >void *BufferPtr;
> >unnsigned int stride=5;
> >// should now compile
> >(char*&)BufferPtr+=stride;
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:17:14 +0200, CAVEY GERARD <ger...@sg...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Hi
> >>
> >>I have little question
> >>It seems impossible to me to offset a void pointer with the += operator
> >>can someone explain me why ?
> >>I don t really understand the compiler here ... the left casting should
> >>give him the memory unit size , right?Is left casting forbidden?
> >>
> >>void *BufferPtr;
> >>unnsigned int stridde=5;
> >>//doesnt compile !
> >>(char*)BufferPtr+=stride;
> >>//will compile
> >>BufferPtr=(char*)BufferPtr+stride;
> >>
> >>Thanks
> >>GC.
> >>
> >>*************************************************************************
> >>Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont
> >>confidentiels et etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires.
> >>Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite.
> >>Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration.
> >>SG Asset Management et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au titre
> >>de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.
> >>
> >>Decouvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site
> >>www.sgam.fr
> >>
> >>                               ********
> >>
> >>This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and
> >>intended solely for the addressees.
> >>Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
> >>E-mails are susceptible to alteration.
> >>Neither SG Asset Management nor any of its subsidiaries or affiliates shall
> >>be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified.
> >>
> >>*************************************************************************
> >>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
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> >
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [GD-General] Missing the 'Big Picture'

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

This is what I posted on my own weblog:

I almost stopped reading when Walter Kim states that "It's my belief that 
the problem of story and game fusion is part of a larger problem in 
videogame development: object-oriented programming". Thankfully, he quickly 
clarifies that he's trolling his way to make a point, and ends with 
"Production pragmatics are gratuitously dictating the course of design 
before any design work is even done." Which is dead on, of course. He 
doesn't offer much in the way of enlightment, but he provides a very useful 
point of view. Recommended reading. The emphasis on experience, emotion (and 
crying as the ultimate proof) and storytelling are quite fashionable. But, 
while important, I doubt they're really the crux of the problem. It's easy 
to say "many games have bad narrative" and "many games fail", and then 
establish a correlation. But no. Many successful games do not have a 
meaningful story. Not every game needs one, or even benefits from having 
one.

(Minor pet peeve: Facade keeps being brought up as a significant example of 
sucessful game narrative - I do not even consider it a game!)

Now, specific to your question:

As long as games are considered "software development", it will always be a 
bit like that. To me that's like saying "moviemaking is carpentry" because 
you have to build the sets. But in all honesty, the biggest problem is the 
lack of experience and maturity of the creative, technical and production 
leads, as well as the craft itself which still doesn't have a solid cultural 
background (terminology as well as truly established methodology).

Anyway I posted on the forum there as well.

mike wuetherick wrote:
> Seeing as it's pretty quiet around here lately, figured i'd post about
> an interesting set of articles recently posted discussing Game Design
> and the 'Big Picture'(tm):
>
> http://www.ludonauts.com/index.php/Developers:_Missing_the_'Whole'_Point
>
> Often it seems that most games are designed by dozens of individuals,
> and end up feeling this way - basically completely fail in the 'big
> picture' department...
>
> Any thoughts on the article?  I personally agree with the author, in
> that games are unique in that every single piece of the development
> puzzle is, in fact 'a design decision', something that often has no
> input or control by the designer...or so it seems this way in the
> final product that is produced...
>
> Where in films, no matter how many hundreds of people were involved,
> often you hear people discussing how 'every frame is perfect', and
> how a film lives up to the directors' 'vision'...
>
> How do film's manage this when games often seem like there was no
> 'vision' to begin with in the first place (whether this is true or not
> is a different story)...

-- 
  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios 

Re: [GD-General] Offset a void pointer

[Dan T. <da...@ar...>]

Is there any problem with:

BufferPtr = (char*)BufferPtr + stride;

? Compiles for me... certainly easier to read than (char*&)BufferPtr. Is 
one subtly faster than the in a way I'm not aware?

-Dan


Richard Fabian wrote:

>just add an ampersand to your cast to make it a reference pointer not
>just a pointer
>
>void *BufferPtr;
>unnsigned int stride=5;
>// should now compile
>(char*&)BufferPtr+=stride;
>
>
>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:17:14 +0200, CAVEY GERARD <ger...@sg...> wrote:
>  
>
>>Hi
>>
>>I have little question
>>It seems impossible to me to offset a void pointer with the += operator
>>can someone explain me why ?
>>I don t really understand the compiler here ... the left casting should
>>give him the memory unit size , right?Is left casting forbidden?
>>
>>void *BufferPtr;
>>unnsigned int stridde=5;
>>//doesnt compile !
>>(char*)BufferPtr+=stride;
>>//will compile
>>BufferPtr=(char*)BufferPtr+stride;
>>
>>Thanks
>>GC.
>>
>>*************************************************************************
>>Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont
>>confidentiels et etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires.
>>Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite.
>>Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration.
>>SG Asset Management et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au titre
>>de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.
>>
>>Decouvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site
>>www.sgam.fr
>>
>>                               ********
>>
>>This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and
>>intended solely for the addressees.
>>Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
>>E-mails are susceptible to alteration.
>>Neither SG Asset Management nor any of its subsidiaries or affiliates shall
>>be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified.
>>
>>*************************************************************************
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------
>>This SF.net email is sponsored by: IT Product Guide on ITManagersJournal
>>Use IT products in your business? Tell us what you think of them. Give us
>>Your Opinions, Get Free ThinkGeek Gift Certificates! Click to find out more
>>http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/guidepromo.tmpl
>>_______________________________________________
>>Gamedevlists-general mailing list
>>Gam...@li...
>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
>>Archives:
>>http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
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>
>  
>

Re: [GD-General] Offset a void pointer

[Richard F. <ra...@gm...>]

just add an ampersand to your cast to make it a reference pointer not
just a pointer

void *BufferPtr;
unnsigned int stride=5;
// should now compile
(char*&)BufferPtr+=stride;


On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:17:14 +0200, CAVEY GERARD <ger...@sg...> wrote:
> Hi
> 
> I have little question
> It seems impossible to me to offset a void pointer with the += operator
> can someone explain me why ?
> I don t really understand the compiler here ... the left casting should
> give him the memory unit size , right?Is left casting forbidden?
> 
> void *BufferPtr;
> unnsigned int stridde=5;
> //doesnt compile !
> (char*)BufferPtr+=stride;
> //will compile
> BufferPtr=(char*)BufferPtr+stride;
> 
> Thanks
> GC.
> 
> *************************************************************************
> Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont
> confidentiels et etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires.
> Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite.
> Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration.
> SG Asset Management et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au titre
> de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.
> 
> Decouvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site
> www.sgam.fr
> 
>                                ********
> 
> This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and
> intended solely for the addressees.
> Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
> E-mails are susceptible to alteration.
> Neither SG Asset Management nor any of its subsidiaries or affiliates shall
> be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified.
> 
> *************************************************************************
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: IT Product Guide on ITManagersJournal
> Use IT products in your business? Tell us what you think of them. Give us
> Your Opinions, Get Free ThinkGeek Gift Certificates! Click to find out more
> http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/guidepromo.tmpl
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
>

Re: [GD-General] Offset a void pointer

[Jorrit T. <jor...@uz...>]

CAVEY GERARD wrote:

>Hi
>
>I have little question
>It seems impossible to me to offset a void pointer with the += operator
>can someone explain me why ?
>I don t really understand the compiler here ... the left casting should
>give him the memory unit size , right?Is left casting forbidden?
>
>void *BufferPtr;
>unnsigned int stridde=5;
>//doesnt compile !
>(char*)BufferPtr+=stride;
>//will compile
>BufferPtr=(char*)BufferPtr+stride;
>  
>
Indeed, the cast operator is not an lvalue. So you cannot use it
on the left side of an '=' like that.

Greetings,

Re: [GD-General] Offset a void pointer

[Aaron D. <ri...@in...>]

The cast has the same precedence as other unary operators.

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~cs240/misc/operators.html

In no specific order: ++  --  +  -  !  ~  &  *  (type_name)  sizeof new delete


On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:17 pm, CAVEY GERARD wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have little question
> It seems impossible to me to offset a void pointer with the += operator
> can someone explain me why ?
> I don t really understand the compiler here ... the left casting should
> give him the memory unit size , right?Is left casting forbidden?
>
> void *BufferPtr;
> unnsigned int stridde=5;
> //doesnt compile !
> (char*)BufferPtr+=stride;
> //will compile
> BufferPtr=(char*)BufferPtr+stride;
>
> Thanks
> GC.
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont
> confidentiels et etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires.
> Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite.
> Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration.
> SG Asset Management et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au titre
> de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.
>
> Decouvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site
> www.sgam.fr
>
> 				********
>
> This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and
> intended solely for the addressees.
> Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
> E-mails are susceptible to alteration.
> Neither SG Asset Management nor any of its subsidiaries or affiliates shall
> be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified.
>
> *************************************************************************
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: IT Product Guide on ITManagersJournal
> Use IT products in your business? Tell us what you think of them. Give us
> Your Opinions, Get Free ThinkGeek Gift Certificates! Click to find out more
> http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/guidepromo.tmpl
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557

-- 
- Aaron

"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground."

[GD-General] Offset a void pointer

[CAVEY G. <GER...@sg...>]

Hi

I have little question
It seems impossible to me to offset a void pointer with the += operator
can someone explain me why ?
I don t really understand the compiler here ... the left casting should
give him the memory unit size , right?Is left casting forbidden?

void *BufferPtr;
unnsigned int stridde=5;
//doesnt compile !
(char*)BufferPtr+=stride;
//will compile
BufferPtr=(char*)BufferPtr+stride;

Thanks 
GC.


*************************************************************************
Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont
confidentiels et etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires.
Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite. 
Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration. 
SG Asset Management et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au titre
de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.

Decouvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site
www.sgam.fr 

				********

This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and
intended solely for the addressees.
Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited. 
E-mails are susceptible to alteration.   
Neither SG Asset Management nor any of its subsidiaries or affiliates shall
be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified. 

*************************************************************************

RE: [GD-General] Missing the 'Big Picture'

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

It's not entirely true, of course. I'm sure your average film director
doesn't go to the camera manufacturers and tell them how to build a camera.
It's all about finding the right boundaries between skill sets. We're
getting there, slowly....

Jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Brian Hook
Sent: 10 October 2004 15:51
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-General] Missing the 'Big Picture'


> How do film's manage this when games often seem like there was no
> 'vision' to begin with in the first place (whether this is true or
> not is a different story)...

Cultural differences, which will erode over time.  In a movie, there
is NO question that the director is charge.  The actors, set
designers, script writers, ALL respond to the director except in very
anomalous situations (e.g. a star driven movie where the star has
considerable weight with the studio).

In games, no such similar structure happens.  Fiefdoms and personal
domains are far more common, and rarely does anyone have the authority
to quash that.

As games become more assembly-line oriented, this will naturally
diminish.  Budgets and teams are becoming far too big for the ad-hoc
method of game design to work much longer.  Some companies, such as
EA, are getting this process down very well, much to the ire of the
individual contributors.

In Japan it's already this way to a large degree, e.g. the situations
where Kojima or Suzuki are clearly the defining visionaries for their
products, and everyone else is there primarily to assist, not to have
their own miniature visions of how things need to get done.

Brian




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Archives:
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Re: [GD-General] Missing the 'Big Picture'

[Brian H. <ho...@bo...>]

> How do film's manage this when games often seem like there was no
> 'vision' to begin with in the first place (whether this is true or
> not is a different story)...

Cultural differences, which will erode over time.  In a movie, there 
is NO question that the director is charge.  The actors, set 
designers, script writers, ALL respond to the director except in very 
anomalous situations (e.g. a star driven movie where the star has 
considerable weight with the studio).

In games, no such similar structure happens.  Fiefdoms and personal 
domains are far more common, and rarely does anyone have the authority 
to quash that.

As games become more assembly-line oriented, this will naturally 
diminish.  Budgets and teams are becoming far too big for the ad-hoc 
method of game design to work much longer.  Some companies, such as 
EA, are getting this process down very well, much to the ire of the 
individual contributors.

In Japan it's already this way to a large degree, e.g. the situations 
where Kojima or Suzuki are clearly the defining visionaries for their 
products, and everyone else is there primarily to assist, not to have 
their own miniature visions of how things need to get done.

Brian

[GD-General] Missing the 'Big Picture'

[mike w. <mi...@ge...>]

Seeing as it's pretty quiet around here lately, figured i'd post about 
an interesting set of articles recently posted discussing Game Design 
and the 'Big Picture'(tm):

http://www.ludonauts.com/index.php/Developers:_Missing_the_'Whole'_Point

Often it seems that most games are designed by dozens of individuals, 
and end up feeling this way - basically completely fail in the 'big 
picture' department...

Any thoughts on the article?  I personally agree with the author, in 
that games are unique in that every single piece of the development 
puzzle is, in fact 'a design decision', something that often has no 
input or control by the designer...or so it seems this way in the final 
product that is produced...

Where in films, no matter how many hundreds of people were involved, 
often you hear people discussing how 'every frame is perfect', and how a 
film lives up to the directors' 'vision'...

How do film's manage this when games often seem like there was no 
'vision' to begin with in the first place (whether this is true or not 
is a different story)...

Cheers
Mike Wuetherick

Re: [GD-General] Bandwidth

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Noel Llopis wrote:
> Is anybody making games with 56K modems in mind anymore?

But the game we're talking about is 1998's Half Life, which many people 
played over modem lines. The requirements have increased with voice and 
whatnot, but still...

-- 
  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

RE: [GD-General] Bandwidth

[Andrew G. <ag...@cl...>]

 
Narrowband still has a pretty substantial share in parts of the US. For
example the split with PS2 online users six months ago was around 50/50,
according to people at SCEA.

Andy





-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...] On Behalf Of Noel
Llopis
Sent: 30 September 2004 15:17
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-General] Bandwidth

On Wednesday 29 September 2004 03:22 am, Javier Arevalo wrote:
> At 50kb/s (6.25Kbytes/s), a 56K modem
> would barely be enough to let someone connect to a server.

Is anybody making games with 56K modems in mind anymore? I thought even the
crappiest of broadband connections was assumed these days for most online
games.


--Noel
Games from Within
http://www.gamesfromwithin.com



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Re: [GD-General] Bandwidth

[Noel L. <nl...@co...>]

On Wednesday 29 September 2004 03:22 am, Javier Arevalo wrote:
> At 50kb/s (6.25Kbytes/s), a 56K modem
> would barely be enough to let someone connect to a server.

Is anybody making games with 56K modems in mind anymore? I thought even the 
crappiest of broadband connections was assumed these days for most online 
games.


--Noel
Games from Within
http://www.gamesfromwithin.com

Re: [GD-General] Unit tests in a game engine

[Noel L. <nl...@co...>]

On Wednesday 29 September 2004 08:46 pm, Jason Bay wrote:
> I'm very curious to explore how (or whether) the XP-stoked unit test
> paradigm can work in games. 

I recommend you try asking in the sweng-gamedev mailing list. You're more 
likely to get many more answers there. Even looking through the archives, I 
think the topic has come up before (not for a while though).
http://lists.midnightryder.com/listinfo.cgi/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com

> Are any of you are using automated unit tests 
> in your game engine? If so, do you have any suggestions to help me along?

Yes, I'm a big fan of unit tests. A few years ago, I started writing unit 
tests after the implementation for some low-level subsystems, like math 
operations and such. It was somewhat useful, but I don't think the effort 
particularly paid off (especially not for a math library that never changed).

About a couple of years ago, I started doing TDD (test-driven development: 
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TestDrivenDevelopment) for some low and mid level 
subsystems of the game engine. The difference was night and day.

Not only did TDD create much better unit tests with much better coverage, but 
the most important thing is that it caused the design of the program itself 
to be different than what it would have been if I had started coding it 
first.

Personally, I am totally sold on the idea of TDD. I'm convinced that the 
quality of a codebase is directly proportional to how easy it is to refactor. 
If you ever decide not to do something because of what it might break, then 
you're in trouble. Doing TDD is the easiest way to make sure you can 
continuously refactor your codebase.

In the next few months we're going to roll out full TDD here at Sammy Studios, 
so it'll be interesting to see how it works out for a full game engine with 
the whole team on board.

> Can you point me at any printed or online resources about unit testing that
> would apply to real time games?

There isn't much that is unique about games. Unit tests deal with small bits 
of functionality (single classes) in as much isolation as possible. For 
high-level functionality, you need to rely on existing tests for the low 
level code and just test the new functionality you're adding. If you designed 
things correctly, you should be able to test all you want almost in full 
isolation just by creating a few objects on the stack and interacting with 
them (if you find yourself creating new levels in the editor, then you're 
doing functional tests, not unit tests).

If you haven't already, make sure you pick up the book "Test Driven 
Development" by Kent Beck, just so you're comfortable with the idea of mock 
objects and how to do TDD in general. At the beginning it might seem hard, 
but it soon becomes second nature if you keep at it.


--Noel
Games from Within
http://www.gamesfromwithin.com

RE: [GD-General] Unit tests in a game engine

[Hutchison, B. <Ben...@se...>]

ad...@li...] On Behalf Of
> Jason Bay
> Subject: [GD-General] Unit tests in a game engine
>=0D
> I'm very curious to explore how (or whether) the XP-stoked unit test
> paradigm can work in games. Are any of you are using automated unit
tests
> in
> your game engine?=0D

I have been using unit tests in "game-like" simulation software written
in Java that has user interface, using JUnit. I'm happy with the result.
Note that I wrote the tests as I wrote the software, not added them
later, and this makes things *much* easier.

If so, do you have any suggestions to help me along? Can
> you point me at any printed or online resources about unit testing
that
> would apply to real time games?

My experience has been that writing units tests is very hard when you
start, in any domain, and you just have to keep trying, incrementally,
to get better at testing (and writing test-able code). In terms of refs,
for starters, Martin Fowler's book and online articles have been a vital
guide for me.

The single best piece of advice I've heard recently re: testing is
"Every time you discover/fix a bug, write a unit test to detect the
buggy behaviour". Stop the bug re-surfacing, but also tends to reveal
error-prone parts of your system as a side effect.=0D

And I'll just restate the essential idea of a test. Start with a system
in a known, static state. Perform one or few test-controlled operations
on that system. Manually work out what the expected correct post-state
is (which can involve pen, paper and calculator), and then assert the
system is in that state.

>=0D
> I've been making a concerted effort lately to work some small
automated
> tests into our game engine code to do simple things like checking for
> alignment of related tables, checking math-related functions, etc. So
far,
> it's been limited to a group of special test functions that get run
when
> the
> game is launched, and which will assert if anything goes wrong.
>=0D
> But I'm at a loss as to how go about constructing unit tests for most
of
> the
> game functions, such as menu navigation, interacting with AI, etc. It
> seems
> like this would require me to write some kind of module to simulate
user
> input (cursor moves, button presses, etc.) and I'm not sure how I
could
> possibly write something that could come close to simulating the input
> patterns of a human. Plus, I'm writing for resource-limited handheld
> consoles (currently the Nintendo GBA and DS), so I can't really use a
> separate app to poke at my game while it's running, as I might be able
to
> do
> on a PC.

You are probably experiencing the difficulty of retrofitting tests to
code. I don't test my UI much, but I do test AI, movement and the like
during play, by making the same code calls that the UI does. I firmly
think that is the best approach. It sounds likes there some tight
coupling, or even interweaving,  between you UI "view" and your game
"model", that might prevent you doing this.

I do test small pieces of my system in a stripped down mode. Unless the
scope of the test is small, I have canned micro-levels that are really
small and simple that I can test unit actions or AI in. But I think
testing pieces is hard if you wrote the code first; I changed my design
a lot to accommodate easy unit testing.

One of the hardest problems I had was testing things involving
randomness from random generators. After much wrangling, I settled on a
preferred approach of substituting in "Mock Randomizers", which were
hard coded to produce a certain output value or pattern. Then I'd work
out what the code should do in response to those numbers
(time-consuming), and assert my expectations in the test.

I write my tests soon after first version a class, and update them if I
add major new functions, or if I later find a bug in the class
(following my earlier rule). My tests often fail, and I don't move on
til they pass. Sometimes it takes a week to get a class working that
took a day to write.

The payback for all this work comes when you put everything together as
a full simulator. It just works! Not quite, but I have found noticeably
few bugs while actually running my sim.=0D

Finally, if you want to have a really positive unit testing experience,
it's more likely to happen when you build your tests into new code. That
is, when you next start a project, or even a new subsystem or component,
write a test on your first day, even if trivial, and stick to the habit
throughout its development.

Regards
Ben Hutchison

www.sensis.com.au

A leading Australian advertising, information=0D
and directories business.=0D

www.yellowpages.com.au
www.whitepages.com.au
www.citysearch.com.au
www.whereis.com.au
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www.tradingpost.com.au

This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the=
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Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss=
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If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with,=
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[GD-General] Unit tests in a game engine

[Jason B. <bay...@ho...>]

I'm very curious to explore how (or whether) the XP-stoked unit test 
paradigm can work in games. Are any of you are using automated unit tests in 
your game engine? If so, do you have any suggestions to help me along? Can 
you point me at any printed or online resources about unit testing that 
would apply to real time games?

I've been making a concerted effort lately to work some small automated 
tests into our game engine code to do simple things like checking for 
alignment of related tables, checking math-related functions, etc. So far, 
it's been limited to a group of special test functions that get run when the 
game is launched, and which will assert if anything goes wrong.

But I'm at a loss as to how go about constructing unit tests for most of the 
game functions, such as menu navigation, interacting with AI, etc. It seems 
like this would require me to write some kind of module to simulate user 
input (cursor moves, button presses, etc.) and I'm not sure how I could 
possibly write something that could come close to simulating the input 
patterns of a human. Plus, I'm writing for resource-limited handheld 
consoles (currently the Nintendo GBA and DS), so I can't really use a 
separate app to poke at my game while it's running, as I might be able to do 
on a PC.

If you have any suggestions, anecdotes, or resources, I'd love to hear them.

Jason Bay
Griptonite Games

Re: [GD-General] Bandwidth

[mike w. <mi...@ge...>]

They surprised us as well, and the costs involved made us basically 
leave the 'game server hosting' business - the only way it was 
financially feasible (as far as we could see based on the bandwidth we 
saw going out of our servers) was to have a LOT of game servers (thus 
being able to get better/cheaper bandwidth rates).

I think the bandwidth per player was more around the range of 32 kb/s 
per player for half-life until they added voice support, which added an 
extra 10-20 kb/s per player.

BF-based games were definitely much higher.

Btw, considering that people on modems are barely able to play modern 
games online, i wouldn't expect them to be able to host any kind of 
server, let alone anything close to what our servers on 100 Meg pipes 
could do.

I mentioned cable/dsl usage based on what we found here in Vancouver 
Canada - we initially ran a single CS server based on a Shaw-cable 
modem, and found that it would barf out at between 12-16 players, we 
moved to a T1 line and found that it would support a single server up to 
about 20 players or so before it would barf out and then we moved to a 
100 Meg coloc (which allowed us to finally use the machines to what they 
were able to, got 4-5 CS servers on a machine, 1 Natural Selection 
server per machine (extremely server-processor intensive).

The bandwidth usage seemed fairly consistent across the various pipes we 
plugged the servers into.

The LAN game server options for HL/BF were completely seperate types of 
servers (as far as the game-launching goes), these were entirely 
'internet' servers as far as the game in concerned, but i'm not sure if 
the game itself handles the network bandwidth differently, or just 
handles the server browsing and game launching differently (ie only 
looking on the local network for servers, NOT calling home over the net 
to authenticate, etc).

Again, this is just my experience based on the servers that we ran.

Cheers
Mike W
www.gekidodesigns.com

Javier Arevalo wrote:
> mike wuetherick wrote:
> 
>> after monitoring and calculations, we found that a default half-life
>> (version 1) server is about 50 kb/s per player pretty much straight up
>> to the max players, you can run about 12 players on a standard
>> cable/dsl before you max out and start seeing lag.
>>
>> as another example, battlefield 1942 used almost twice the bandwidth
>> per player, upwards of 100 kb/s per player...
> 
> 
> Wow, those numbers sound awfully high. Your "Standard DSL" outbound 
> speed is *6* times what I have at home. :) At 50kb/s (6.25Kbytes/s), a 
> 56K modem would barely be enough to let someone connect to a server.
> 
> Maybe those numbers were measured using a heavier "LAN performance" 
> option? (Not sure if those games support that, just wondering).
> 

[GD-General] TCP/UDP IP Offload NIC for gamers?

[Harlan B. <hb...@fa...>]

Hi everyone, I'm new to the list, but have experience
coding games and networking (especially networking
code). 

My question for the group is this: what features would
be useful to gamers/game servers in an ADVANCED
NETWORK PROCESSING Network Card (NIC)?

Would TCP/IP Offload be of benefit?  (my thought is
not much, since most games are UDP)...

What about a UDP/IP Offload engine?  (for example:)
what if all it did was hardware support for IP
REASSEMBLY? 

Any other ideas for features in such a product? 
e.g. what do gamers want in a networking card? 

Also, I'm trying to reach a contact or two at a MMORPG
and/or network game dev. company to ask them this
question as well.

Thanks, 
Harlan

Re: [GD-General] Bandwidth

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

mike wuetherick wrote:

> after monitoring and calculations, we found that a default half-life
> (version 1) server is about 50 kb/s per player pretty much straight up
> to the max players, you can run about 12 players on a standard
> cable/dsl before you max out and start seeing lag.
>
> as another example, battlefield 1942 used almost twice the bandwidth
> per player, upwards of 100 kb/s per player...

Wow, those numbers sound awfully high. Your "Standard DSL" outbound speed is 
*6* times what I have at home. :) At 50kb/s (6.25Kbytes/s), a 56K modem 
would barely be enough to let someone connect to a server.

Maybe those numbers were measured using a heavier "LAN performance" option? 
(Not sure if those games support that, just wondering).

-- 
  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

Re: [GD-General] Bandwidth

[mike w. <mi...@ge...>]

i've done quite a bit of hosting of game servers over the past few 
years, and have found that it very much depended on the game engine and 
even the mod for the game engine, so i don't think you can really get 
any kind of useful information from just asking a generic 'how much does 
your game use' question.

after monitoring and calculations, we found that a default half-life 
(version 1) server is about 50 kb/s per player pretty much straight up 
to the max players, you can run about 12 players on a standard cable/dsl 
before you max out and start seeing lag.

as another example, battlefield 1942 used almost twice the bandwidth per 
player, upwards of 100 kb/s per player...

mike w
www.gekidodesigns.com



Brett Bibby wrote:
> Can anyone with a _shipped_ network-enabled (WAN, not LAN) title comment 
> on how much bandwidth is used for your game? I'm trying to understand 
> the network bandwidth needs for a variety of game types, so the game 
> type (name is even better if you can disclose) and the bits/bytes per 
> second throughput would be appreciated.
> 
> I have done a lot of googling and it seems there is a big difference 
> between the games that shipped and those that are in development in 
> terms of usage, so I'm hoping to limit the information to actually 
> shipped titles and real-world numbers.
> 
> Thank you.
> Brett
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: YOU BE THE JUDGE. Be one of 170
> Project Admins to receive an Apple iPod Mini FREE for your judgement on
> who ports your project to Linux PPC the best. Sponsored by IBM.
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> Archives:
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> 
> 

RE: [GD-General] Fonts

[Jacob T. \(C. D. Ltd\) <Ja...@Co...>]

GDI++ is good for this sort of thing.  It has some nice options (special
effects) that can be used when "printing" the glyphs into an image.

Jake

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...] On Behalf Of
Dr Andrew Perella
Sent: 28 September 2004 11:19
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-General] Fonts

Thanks Kent,
We have someting that does this already actually - its almost identical.
I
was really hoping for something that could add extra effects such as
variable
width outlining, shadowing etc. I't looks like I will have to roll my
own
here.
Cheers,
Andrew

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Kent Quirk
> Sent: 28 September 2004 03:08
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-General] Fonts
>
>
> It so happens that I came across this today:
>
> http://www.fluidstudios.com/
>
> See FontGen at the bottom of the page. I haven't used it yet, but
> it looks
> interesting. It might approach your needs.
>
>          Kent
>
>
> At 10:26 AM 9/23/2004, you wrote:
> >I would like to make InGame font bitmaps + spacing info etc from
standard
> >fonts with effects applied - eg with added drop
> shadows,outlines... whatever
> >burned into them. Does anyone have any suggestions as to do how
> to do this
> >in an easy way? Ideally if we could use the photoshop fonts
> support it would
> >be great.
> >Cheers,
> >Andrew
>
> ----
> Kent Quirk
> CTO, CogniToy
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: YOU BE THE JUDGE. Be one of 170
> Project Admins to receive an Apple iPod Mini FREE for your judgement
on
> who ports your project to Linux PPC the best. Sponsored by IBM.
> Deadline: Sept. 24. Go here: http://sf.net/ppc_contest.php
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> This e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It may be
> read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. No
> communication sent by e-mail to or from Eutechnyx is intended to
> give rise to contractual or other legal liability, apart from
> liability which cannot be excluded under English law.
>
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> Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre.
>
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_____________________________________________________________________
This e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It may be read,
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e-mail to or from Eutechnyx is intended to give rise to contractual or
other legal liability, apart from liability which cannot be excluded
under English law.=20

This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet
delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre.=20

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-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.Net email is sponsored by: YOU BE THE JUDGE. Be one of 170
Project Admins to receive an Apple iPod Mini FREE for your judgement on
who ports your project to Linux PPC the best. Sponsored by IBM.
Deadline: Sept. 24. Go here: http://sf.net/ppc_contest.php
_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-general mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
Archives:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557

RE: [GD-General] Fonts

[Dr A. P. <aj...@eu...>]

Thanks Kent,
We have someting that does this already actually - its almost identical. I
was really hoping for something that could add extra effects such as
variable
width outlining, shadowing etc. I't looks like I will have to roll my own
here.
Cheers,
Andrew

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Kent Quirk
> Sent: 28 September 2004 03:08
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-General] Fonts
>
>
> It so happens that I came across this today:
>
> http://www.fluidstudios.com/
>
> See FontGen at the bottom of the page. I haven't used it yet, but
> it looks
> interesting. It might approach your needs.
>
>          Kent
>
>
> At 10:26 AM 9/23/2004, you wrote:
> >I would like to make InGame font bitmaps + spacing info etc from standard
> >fonts with effects applied - eg with added drop
> shadows,outlines... whatever
> >burned into them. Does anyone have any suggestions as to do how
> to do this
> >in an easy way? Ideally if we could use the photoshop fonts
> support it would
> >be great.
> >Cheers,
> >Andrew
>
> ----
> Kent Quirk
> CTO, CogniToy
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: YOU BE THE JUDGE. Be one of 170
> Project Admins to receive an Apple iPod Mini FREE for your judgement on
> who ports your project to Linux PPC the best. Sponsored by IBM.
> Deadline: Sept. 24. Go here: http://sf.net/ppc_contest.php
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> This e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It may be
> read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. No
> communication sent by e-mail to or from Eutechnyx is intended to
> give rise to contractual or other legal liability, apart from
> liability which cannot be excluded under English law.
>
> This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star
> Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre.
>
> www.eutechnyx.com Eutechnyx Limited. Registered in England No: 2172322


_____________________________________________________________________
This e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. No communication sent by e-mail to or from Eutechnyx is intended to give rise to contractual or other legal liability, apart from liability which cannot be excluded under English law. 

This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. 

www.eutechnyx.com Eutechnyx Limited. Registered in England No: 2172322

Re: [GD-General] Fonts

[Kent Q. <ken...@co...>]

It so happens that I came across this today:

http://www.fluidstudios.com/

See FontGen at the bottom of the page. I haven't used it yet, but it looks 
interesting. It might approach your needs.

         Kent


At 10:26 AM 9/23/2004, you wrote:
>I would like to make InGame font bitmaps + spacing info etc from standard
>fonts with effects applied - eg with added drop shadows,outlines... whatever
>burned into them. Does anyone have any suggestions as to do how to do this
>in an easy way? Ideally if we could use the photoshop fonts support it would
>be great.
>Cheers,
>Andrew

----
Kent Quirk
CTO, CogniToy

Re: [GD-General] Bandwidth

[Sam M. <sa...@of...>]

Savage (FPS / RTS hybrid, www.s2games.com) uses anywhere from 1k-10k per 
second per player, depending on how many other players are in the game and 
the bandwidth settings for each player (a player using 56k settings won't 
use more than 5k/sec).

I was pretty happy with how efficient the network code turned out to be. 
Even in a 64 player game each player only consumes around 4k-6k per second 
on average, which is pretty good for an FPS.  Still, to support that you 
need a pretty beefy server connection.

FPSs generally require the highest amount of bandwidth of any genre, so if 
you're not developing one, you probably shouldn't use this as a benchmark.

Sam McGrath
www.offsetsoftware.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brett Bibby" <res...@ga...>
To: <Gam...@li...>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 5:12 PM
Subject: [GD-General] Bandwidth


> Can anyone with a _shipped_ network-enabled (WAN, not LAN) title comment 
> on how much bandwidth is used for your game? I'm trying to understand the 
> network bandwidth needs for a variety of game types, so the game type 
> (name is even better if you can disclose) and the bits/bytes per second 
> throughput would be appreciated.
>
> I have done a lot of googling and it seems there is a big difference 
> between the games that shipped and those that are in development in terms 
> of usage, so I'm hoping to limit the information to actually shipped 
> titles and real-world numbers.
>
> Thank you.
> Brett
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: YOU BE THE JUDGE. Be one of 170
> Project Admins to receive an Apple iPod Mini FREE for your judgement on
> who ports your project to Linux PPC the best. Sponsored by IBM.
> Deadline: Sept. 24. Go here: http://sf.net/ppc_contest.php
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557