gamedevlists-consoles — List for discussing game development on consoles like the PS2 and XBox

[GD-Consoles] MARKETlNG SERVICES _3192

[Gabriel <Lea...@cd...>]

Dear gam...@li...:

We provide Marketing plans for you:

1. Provide e-mail list as your require.

2. Customize this e-mail list for you and broadcast your message 
    to the list.

* We also offer broadcast  server to send out emails.

Please contact us with any questions.


Mo...@ZJ...
Marketing Service
Mo.Te Marketing Center



The e-mail was sent to  gam...@li....
For opt-out: ID...@ZJ...

[GD-Consoles] [OT?] Microsoft GameFest Developer event

[Mike B. <mi...@mi...>]

Apologies, as I think this may be arguably off-topic but I wanted to
ensure that both lists are aware that the abstracts have just been
posted to the GameFest site
(https://www.microsoftgamefest.com/session_abstracts.htm).

You should have a look-see at the abstracts - there's a ton of content
for all MS platforms across multiple disciplines.

If you'd more info please reply directly to me, rather than spamming the
list, even if it's to argue the relative merits of netiquette :)

Cheers, Mike

[GD-Consoles] looking for multi-platform console source code

[Research <res...@ga...>]

Hi,
I'm not sure if this is OT or not. The list rules say "Topics discussed 
include programming, development environments, asset creation, deployment, 
design, etc." and I believe it's okay. If not, can somebody suggest a better 
place to post this?

We have a number of multi-platform projects in development for PS2, 
GameCube, PC, Mac and Xbox. Our internal engine is utilizing RenderWare for 
just the rendering portion (not collision, audio, ai, etc.). Criterion has 
indicated we can no longer get any licenses though, and we have titles due 
to ship in less than a year. Our development schedules are quite tight, and 
so re-engineering the rendering pipeline for multiple platforms is going to 
be difficult with only a couple of months to complete the work.

As a result, we're currently looking at the possibility of purchasing some 
source code to jump start development, or open to suggestions about ways to 
accelerate our re-engineering effort.

Requirements:
* Technical spec requirements are pretty low. The titles we are making are 
small environments, simple lighting, and poly counts never exceed 100,000 
polys per frame, even when counting degenerate polys on the PS2 at runtime.
* Given the late phase of the current gen consoles, we don't want to 
continue a per-title licensed solution. We want to purchase the right to use 
the code in any way we see fit.
* We don't want or need long-term support, although we might have a few 
questions during the code assimilation phase.
* We are open to both complete and incomplete solutions, and limited 
multi-platform support, but at a minimum should include something for PS2 as 
it is the biggest time sucker for re-engineering.
* Defunct companies with in-house developed source is okay
* We're also open to hiring somebody with experience at this for a couple of 
months stint to help us engineer the solution to save time

If anybody knows of any options, please let me know.

Cheers,
Brett 

Re: [GD-Consoles] Disc File Layout

[Research <res...@ga...>]

Thanks for the replies!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Research" <res...@ga...>
To: <Gam...@li...>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: [GD-Consoles] Disc File Layout


> Hi,
> It's been very quiet here, hopefully this list is still online!
>
> I need some help understanding CD and DVD discs and how it relates to
> performance of loading files. I can't seem to find the right words to 
> google
> for this information. I tried combinations of ISO9660, sector, file 
> layout,
> transfer speed and ordering but couldn't find anything very useful. I also
> searched the SCE newsgroups.
>
> 1. Sectors are counted from the center of the disc, is this correct? E.g.
> the first sector is closest to the middle of the disc and the last one is
> the edge of the disc?
>
> 2. Do lower sectors seek faster? How about transfer speeds? Are they 
> better
> towards the inner or outer areas of the disc?
>
> 3. Any general tips for laying out data on discs? I saw some posts on the
> newsgroups suggesting putting the elf in the early sectors so it loads
> faster, etc.
>
> 4. Any other things I should know about file placement? size of files?
>
> Thanks,
> Brett
>
>
> All the advantages of Linux Managed Hosting--Without the Cost and Risk!
> Fully trained technicians. The highest number of Red Hat certifications in
> the hosting industry. Fanatical Support. Click to learn more
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=107521&bid=248729&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=553 

Re: [GD-Consoles] Disc File Layout

[<phi...@pl...>]

> That depends on the disc drive.  On PS2 no, the drive is CAV (constant
> angular velocity) so the outside edge has the fastest read rates, but

I believe it's switchable, as you need to set the stable/CLV mode for dual
layer discs. Although I've never actually opened one up to check. Placing
data near the outside then becomes preferable, as you have to seek shorter
distances, and...

> Seek times are the killer

This is the big one. To help with this I reccomend writing all your data
into a single packfile, which allows you to completely automate the
placement of data on the disk. So you can easily place copies of files that
are read together, next to each other. Below a certain physical distance,
the head actually tilts, rather than moves, which is significantly faster.
Plus this means you never suffer the OS sending the head all the way back
to the centre to read the TOC. >_<

There's a lot of good info in sce.dev.prog.cddvd on this issue.

Cheers,
Phil

Re: [GD-Consoles] Disc File Layout

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

Research wrote:
> I need some help understanding CD and DVD discs and how it relates to 
> performance of loading files. I can't seem to find the right words to google 
> for this information. I tried combinations of ISO9660, sector, file layout, 
> transfer speed and ordering but couldn't find anything very useful. I also 
> searched the SCE newsgroups.

As I recall (it's been 5 years since I programmed a PS2), there's a 
document somewhere which gives you the actual transfer rates you should 
expect (by sector, as I recall). You shouldn't use theoretical or your 
own empirical data to work that out, as the transfer rate slows as the 
drive ages.

Jamie

Re: [GD-Consoles] Disc File Layout

[Alistair M. <sou...@gm...>]

Hi Brett,

>1. Sectors are counted from the center of the disc, is this correct? E.g. 
>the first sector is closest to the middle of the disc and the last one is 
>the edge of the disc?
>  
>
That's correct, yes.

>2. Do lower sectors seek faster? How about transfer speeds? Are they better 
>towards the inner or outer areas of the disc?
>  
>
That depends on the disc drive.  On PS2 no, the drive is CAV (constant 
angular velocity) so the outside edge has the fastest read rates, but 
also has the highest spoilage rates because of physical damage to the 
edge of the disc, so the best place to locate data for high transfer 
rates is near the outside edge, but not right on it.  If I remember 
correctly, PS2 DVD gives you over 2x performance reading from the 
outside edge compared to the inside, so it really makes a difference.

>3. Any general tips for laying out data on discs? I saw some posts on the 
>newsgroups suggesting putting the elf in the early sectors so it loads 
>faster, etc.
>  
>
>4. Any other things I should know about file placement? size of files?
>  
>
Seek times are the killer, for short reads it can take longer to seek 
there than it can to actually perform the read.  Therefore, try to 
layout your data so that files which are often read at the same time are 
physically near each other on the disc, to reduce seek overhead.  The 
Xbox DVD emulator has a nifty statistical tool for this which helps to 
semi-automatically lay-out your disc for you based on timings gathered 
during playing sessions. 

If you often have several simultaneous file reads in progress (e.g. 
music + speech, music + streamed data, etc) then it helps, on systems 
like PS2 where you can perform file reads by sector number, to write 
your filesystem as a queue of pending reads and then sort them by sector 
number.  This keeps the drive head moving in the same direction instead 
of jumping back & forth.  Again, the goal is to reduce seek times. 

PS2's DVD drive has a 16 sector (32Kb) cache, and is therefore most 
efficient making reads aligned on 16-sector boundaries, of multiples of 
32Kb.  So it makes sense to start your files on 16-sector boundaries, 
and to make sure that wherever possible you're only making reads in 
multiples of 32Kb.

To avoid one big seek per fopen you can pre-cache the disc's table of 
contents in memory, so that when you open a file it doesn't have to seek 
to the beginning of the disc, read some data (at the slowest possible 
rate because it's on the inside edge), then seek forward again to the 
file location.  You can seek straight to the beginning of the file instead.

Alistair

[GD-Consoles] Disc File Layout

[Research <res...@ga...>]

Hi,
It's been very quiet here, hopefully this list is still online!

I need some help understanding CD and DVD discs and how it relates to 
performance of loading files. I can't seem to find the right words to google 
for this information. I tried combinations of ISO9660, sector, file layout, 
transfer speed and ordering but couldn't find anything very useful. I also 
searched the SCE newsgroups.

1. Sectors are counted from the center of the disc, is this correct? E.g. 
the first sector is closest to the middle of the disc and the last one is 
the edge of the disc?

2. Do lower sectors seek faster? How about transfer speeds? Are they better 
towards the inner or outer areas of the disc?

3. Any general tips for laying out data on discs? I saw some posts on the 
newsgroups suggesting putting the elf in the early sectors so it loads 
faster, etc.

4. Any other things I should know about file placement? size of files?

Thanks,
Brett 

[GD-Consoles] PS2 online model (P2P vs classic Client/server)

[Stephane Z. <sz...@ws...>]

Hi everyone,

=20

I am starting to think about =93online features=94 for our game engine =
and I was
wondering if anybody has some advices to give.

=20

I=92ve got some experience about networking on PC and Xbox but not =
really on
PS2.

=20

So in the case of the PS2, which is the =93best=94 model to use? I mean =
is it
really possible to use a classic Client/Server model on this console =
where a
PS2 will act as a server? I am very afraid about the lack of resources =
on
this console and a peer-to-peer model may be the best solution (not only =
for
Voice Chat). We would like to avoid using a dedicated server hosted by a
publisher or SCE.

=20

The only interesting document I have found is:

http://www.research.scea.com/research/pdfs/SOCOM_GDC_2003_Presentation.pd=
f

but it seems SOCOM is using dedicated servers.

=20

=20

Any information is welcome :-)

=20

Thanks in advance,

=20

St=E9phane Zaouak

Re: [GD-Consoles] Doug Lea's Malloc

[J. V. <val...@tr...>]

On Jun 7, 2004, at 8:17 PM, Brett Bibby wrote:

> Hello,
> We're considering switching to Doug Lea's malloc implementation on the 
> PS2
> and GameCube.  Has anybody that has done this ran into any problems 
> with
> this on either platform?  Could anybody recommend any tuning or default
> values that should be changed?  Anybody satisfied or dissatified with 
> it?

I highly recommend it.  We used it to great satisfaction on Spider-Man 
2 GC for heaps in both physical and virtual memory.  The default 
Nintendo heap allocator is really unsatisfactory.  I didn't find tuning 
the default defines to provide any significant benefit, but it's worth 
double checking that you're using the minimal alignment possible.

--
jv

RE: [GD-Consoles] Doug Lea's Malloc PS2

[Mark W. <Mwa...@to...>]

Brett,

I didn't investigate that code too much, but I looked at it and it
looked kinda scary in terms of overhead, so I wrote my own much cheaper
version that has saved us on many an occasion (breakpoint on out of
memory), able to have heaps within heaps, clear a heap with a couple of
pointer assignments, full leak detection (even when reseting heap),
able to give heap hints as to how many small allocs of certain sizes
are likely to occur so it can prealloc them to prevent fragmentation
etc.

We use middleware and it is VERY handy to restrict each component to
having their own heap. We have a graphics heap, game heap (persistent
data through the life of the game, such as manager objects etc),
level heap (reset at end of each level to prevent progressive
fragmentation) etc.

If nothing else, I hope this gives you some ideas for uses of your
own heap implementation should you decide to do so.

Hope this helps,
Mark

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brett Bibby [mailto:res...@ga...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 8 June 2004 2:03 PM
> To: Gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Consoles] Doug Lea's Malloc PS2
>=20
>=20
> Also I should mention I have already checked out the=20
> conversion to PS2 of
> this done by Rebellion, but I'm curious about people's=20
> satisfaction with
> Doug Lea's (or Rebellion's version) and any recommendations=20
> people might
> have.
> Brett
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: GNOME Foundation
> Hackers Unite!  GUADEC: The world's #1 Open Source Desktop Event.
> GNOME Users and Developers European Conference, 28-30th June in Norway
> http://2004/guadec.org
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-consoles mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-consoles
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D553
>=20

RE: [GD-Consoles] Doug Lea's Malloc PS2

[Stefan B. <Ste...@di...>]

  It works a treat! However, you might find that the C runtime you're
using is already using dlmalloc without you realising it ;)

  One nice thing about it is that it's reasonably straightforward to
wrap in a class, so you can have multiple memory arenas.

/Stefan
=20

> Also I should mention I have already checked out the conversion to PS2
of
> this done by Rebellion, but I'm curious about people's satisfaction
with
> Doug Lea's (or Rebellion's version) and any recommendations people
might
> have.
> Brett

Re: [GD-Consoles] Doug Lea's Malloc

[brian s. <pud...@po...>]

Done it for both, works great.  There's a thread in sce.dev.toptips with 
the subject "malloc replacement" that gives you a version that you can 
drop in your PS2 game with very little effort.  Moving it to GC is 
really easy as well.

--brian

Brett Bibby wrote:

>Hello,
>We're considering switching to Doug Lea's malloc implementation on the PS2
>and GameCube.  Has anybody that has done this ran into any problems with
>this on either platform?  Could anybody recommend any tuning or default
>values that should be changed?  Anybody satisfied or dissatified with it?
>Thanks,
>Brett
>  
>

[GD-Consoles] Doug Lea's Malloc PS2

[Brett B. <res...@ga...>]

Also I should mention I have already checked out the conversion to PS2 of
this done by Rebellion, but I'm curious about people's satisfaction with
Doug Lea's (or Rebellion's version) and any recommendations people might
have.
Brett

[GD-Consoles] Doug Lea's Malloc

[Brett B. <res...@ga...>]

Hello,
We're considering switching to Doug Lea's malloc implementation on the PS2
and GameCube.  Has anybody that has done this ran into any problems with
this on either platform?  Could anybody recommend any tuning or default
values that should be changed?  Anybody satisfied or dissatified with it?
Thanks,
Brett

[GD-Consoles] Re: Sony PSP development ???

[T <cs...@oz...>]

Hi,

Thanks,  I'll wait and see.


Ty

Re: [GD-Consoles] Sony PSP development ???

[Jason G D. <jas...@py...>]

Hi,

> Does anyone know what Sony is doing about PSP development.  I found a web
> form on the SCEE web site, but I am not sure if they are even looking at
the
> porposals.  I sent one in ages ago and just completed another.

We're certainly looking at proposals, and we ought to be replying to
everyone who submits. However there's a fairly significant volume of traffic
right now, so I guess a few might have slipped through the cracks.

> Anyone know what is going on?  Can anyone suggest a more direct way to get
> in contact with the people at Sony for organising developer access to the
> PSP?

I'd wait and see if your second attempt gets replied to (give them a little
while - I know it's frustrating, but things are definitely happening) and if
for whatever reason you don't hear anything this time drop me a private
email and I'll ask around. I don't work on PSP btw - so that's not a general
invite to spam me for information or requests!

> I heard on the rumour mill that development for the PSP will be cheaper
than
> the PS2 - something about emulation on Windows/Linux PC's instead of
> hardware kits.  Does anyone if this is true?

I can't/won't comment on any aspects of PSP development I'm afraid. PSP is
probably going to be one of those things that people are reluctant to talk
about on the mailing list, as it's still all tied up under NDA. Sorry.

Jase.
(who works for SCEE but doesn't pretend to speak for them)

[GD-Consoles] Sony PSP development ???

[T <cs...@oz...>]

Hey,

Does anyone know what Sony is doing about PSP development.  I found a web
form on the SCEE web site, but I am not sure if they are even looking at the
porposals.  I sent one in ages ago and just completed another.

Anyone know what is going on?  Can anyone suggest a more direct way to get
in contact with the people at Sony for organising developer access to the
PSP?

I heard on the rumour mill that development for the PSP will be cheaper than
the PS2 - something about emulation on Windows/Linux PC's instead of
hardware kits.  Does anyone if this is true?


Thanks
Ty

Copper Chip Enterprises
Australia

[GD-Consoles] Network Matchmaking/Browsing

[Brett B. <res...@ga...>]

Hello,
Been quiet in here for a while....

We're developing a game for PS2 and GameCube that supports networking.  =
Originally we planned to use Gamespy for the server browsing (e.g. find =
a game server) but they don't support GameCube at all now, and porting =
their code ourselves is difficult because og thier reliance on hardcoded =
sockets which aren't availabel on the GameCube.  I can't seem to find =
any other service at all that provides a central hub that can collect =
games a player can join.  I don't mind doing all the development work to =
connect to the service.  My questions are:

1.  Does anybody know the name of any other server browsing/matchmaking =
companies besides Gamespy?
2.  Has anybody implemented their own?  What are the pitfalls (besides =
having to own some equipment to aggregate the games)?

IIRC, At GDC there was a talk by about SOCOM and they made all their own =
lobbies, browsing etc. but I remember the presenter saying what a =
nightmare it was.  Some Sony people hang out here and maybe they could =
comment?

Thanks,
Brett

[GD-Consoles] screen adjust

[Research \(GameBrains\) <res...@ga...>]

We want to include a screen adjustment feature in our game for GameCube =
and PS2.  Basically we want to allow x/y scaling and positioning but I'm =
wondering if I should have the screen adjusted based on the absolute =
corners, or inset the "corners" from the guardband?  In other words, =
should the upper left corner be 0,0 or should I account for some x/y =
offsettting like 8,16 and anchor my corner for adjustment there?
Thanks,
Brett Bibby
GameBrains

[GD-Consoles] OT - Game Development Professionals Network

[Nalin S. <ns...@vs...>]

Hi,

This is Nalin Savara here.

I"ve just created a network on Ryze.com (see: http://www.ryze.com ) which is
a premier business network site that's called "GameDevPros" or the "Game
Development Professionals Network" to serve as an online meeting place for
game development professionals of all backgrounds to network, meet and
discuss and exchange ideas and opportunities and support each other in
meeting challenges.

Right now, it's somewhat small, since I've just created it; but your
participation I guess is the only thing it's waiting for.

Do check it out and become part of it.

This network has game designers, programmers, digital artists, animators,
producers, audio engineers, and management & marketing specialists as
members. This is where experts feed their minds with ideas, discussions and
contacts and discuss new gaming methods, technologies and business models.

Regards,
Nalin Savara
CEO and Technical Director,
Darksun Technologies Pvt Ltd.
http://www.darksuntech.com
ns...@da...

Ph: +91-9811109407

[GD-Consoles] Re: PS2 devkit

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

J. Grant wrote:

> You could always just use the Free Software on ps2dev.org
> 
> With ps2lib + dreamGL might be all you need for your main code.

But it won't help those of us who want to use middleware engines.

Thanks for the answer Jason, it was very informative and just what I needed 
(although not necessarily wanted) to hear.

Enno.

Re: [GD-Consoles] PS2 devkit

[J. G. <jg-...@jg...>]

You could always just use the Free Software on ps2dev.org

With ps2lib + dreamGL might be all you need for your main code.

There is a sweet upload tool call puklink that boots from the ps2linux 
DVD, and then executes in normal mode.  So you can upload via ethernet 
etc.  PS2linux kit would give you the hardware docs to code your own 
stuff.  Check that URL for more info.

I'm only suggesting this for prototyping.

Cheers

JG

Re: [GD-Consoles] PS2 devkit

[Jason G D. <jas...@py...>]

> Hi,
>
> can anyone summarize quickly what the differences between having a
regular,
> expensive devkit for the PS2 and PS2 Linux. What is the price differnce
for
> getting started, how do the libraries you program against differ, and is
it

A PS2 Linux kit costs 250 euros and is available on the web for anyone to
buy.
The cheapest PS2 Devkit costs 10000 euros and is only available to a
registered developer.

The former is simply the linux OS running on a standard ps2 and allows you
to program what you like within the confines of that OS, or by jumping
through a few hoops, allows lower level access to the machine. It comes with
full hardware manuals, minus the one for the sound chip. Developing anything
low level is likely to be a painful process involving a lot of reboots, and
debugging is very primitive. There are no real libraries to speak of other
than some kernel modules/devices for accessing the custom hardware, and
whatever is available from the community at large. There are a few fulltime
support staff, but most of the support comes from other users.

The latter is a ps2 with more memory hooked up to an internal PC host which
controls it, and allows more-or-less unintrusive control from a development
environment running on a networked PC. Low-level development is the norm as
the PS2 only has a thin native kernel and no OS to speak of. Debugging is
pretty advanced even with the "free" tools that are supplied by Sony. There
aren't a lot of libs worth speaking about on this setup either, but there is
a wealth of sample code and considerably more support staff dedicated to
helping you out.

> feasible to start research and pre-production work with a low-cost
solution,
> and once you're pretty sure you've got a product, spend more money.

Yes, it's a feasible approach, but I'm not aware of anyone having actually
done it. Actually, I believe there was at least one developer who prototyped
on a linux kit before moving to "real" development systems, but that was
mostly down to confusion over licensing issues, and delays in getting them
signed up.

> Also, would middleware solutions (netimmerse, renderware, havok, etc) for
> the PS2 be supported on PS2/linux ?

At this time none of those work on PS2 linux, and it's doubtful they ever
will - the costs in porting would far outweigh any profit they might somehow
make. You're pretty much stuck with whats freely available - of course you
could get the source for a public 3d engine and port it...

Jase.

[GD-Consoles] PS2 devkit

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

Hi,

can anyone summarize quickly what the differences between having a regular, 
expensive devkit for the PS2 and PS2 Linux. What is the price differnce for 
getting started, how do the libraries you program against differ, and is it 
feasible to start research and pre-production work with a low-cost solution, 
and once you're pretty sure you've got a product, spend more money.

Also, would middleware solutions (netimmerse, renderware, havok, etc) for 
the PS2 be supported on PS2/linux ?

Enno.