#87 MINED -E=CP862 doesn't enable bidi

[lwc]

When using Hebrew (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3440038&group_id=5109&atid=105109) I see no difference whatsoever between MINDED and MINED -E=CP862

This is even though kpdos.htm states:
(13) FreeDOS does not handle bidi scripts natively. A proper bidi text editor
is required; tested with Mined only. Usage: "MINED -E=CPxxx", typed in
uppercase (xxx=856 won't work on Mined).

Can you please test it again?

[lwc]

Mined's author himself (Thomas Wolff) has no idea where you came up that -E enabled bidi support.

It's -u that enabled bidi support. Mined detects the codepage by itself so there's no need to use -E.

So please fix this issue by editing the aforementioned page to just state "MINED -u".

[lwc]

Actually, even "-u" is not needed because Mined auto-enables bidi support.

So running just Mined.exe by itself is enough. Please fix the documentation accordingly.

[fritz.mueller]

There were many changes on Mined since 2012, see: https://mined.github.io/
If necessary, could you report it there?

Could you please tell us if this thread can be closed? Thx.

[lwc]

Mined didn't need to change anything, it still auto detects bidi just like it always did (confirmed by re-testing its latest version just now).
it's FreeDOS' documentation that still needs fixing after all these years (especially since keyb never got any update since).
So it (I guess here) should be fixed to just:

(13) FreeDOS does not handle bidi scripts natively (i.e. this gets reversed to siht). A proper bidi text editor is required; only tested with Mined, which automatically supports bidi.

[fritz.mueller]

As I am only the translator of the help (actual version kpdos 3.1) see my other website: https://www.bootablecd.de/FreeDOS-Internet-version/help110/en/hhstndrd/other/kpdos.htm
I will have to ask if this comment is correct (I think it is, but I have to ask). If yes, I will try to correct it.
Only a question for security: What do you mean with "siht"? Is it a typo? Do you mean "sight"?

[lwc]

Yes, it's correct. But I've rephrased the desired comment to make it clearer. I've meant a word like this will get reversed, thus siht (which is the reverse of the word this).
With words like siht now you understand why bidi is so important, as everything gets reversed without it...I think it's safe to assume if keyb's developer used a language that does this he/she wouldn't have thought to release keyb without bidi support.

[Aitor Santamaría Merino]

Hello:

So the problem is with this sentence in kpidos.htm?

(13) FreeDOS does not handle bidi scripts natively. A proper bidi text
editor
is required; tested with Mined only. Usage: "MINED -E=CPxxx", typed in
uppercase (xxx=856 won't work on Mined).

There are 4 sentences there:

1-The fact that FreeDOS does not support right-to-left languages is ok. It
would be a major endeavour to support it, affecting mainly the CON device
driver, but also any TUI/GUI application (such as EDIT or HELP), i.e.
anything that displays information outside a CON.

2- I don't know if Henrique is online to clarify why an editor is required,
I assume he meant it is required for it to be properly tested, and that he
used MINED. According to the comment, I suppose that Henrique would test
both DISPLAY and KEYB together.

3- I don't know the method used by MINED to determine the codepage. If it
uses int21h/AX=6601h, it will probably require -E to test, as most folks
don't use NLSFUNC/CHCP, and the system codepage may not be aligned with the
one you configure in DISPLAY, and thus the comment is ok.
If it calls int2Fh/AD02h (call DISPLAY), it has been pointed out that the
comment would be superfluous: you don't need the -E (but I guess it doesn't
harm either).

4- If xxx=856 won't work on MINED: I don't know if this is true, but anyway
would be a bug in MINED, not in FreeDOS.

So maybe remove 2 and 4 in kpidos.htm and the bug can be closed?

(13) FreeDOS does not handle bidi scripts natively. Tested with Mined only.
Usage: "MINED -E=CPxxx", typed in uppercase.

Or even furthermore, why comment here how MINED works, if that would belong
to the MINED documentation?

(13) FreeDOS does not handle bidi scripts natively. Tested with Mined only.

Thanks,
Aitor

On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 at 23:09, lwc l-w-c@users.sourceforge.net wrote:

Yes, it's correct. But I've rephrased the desired comment to make it
clearer. I've meant a word like this will get reversed, thus siht (which is
the reverse of this).

---

[bugs:#87] https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/bugs/87/ MINED -E=CP862
doesn't enable bidi

Status: open
Group:
Labels: Help
Created: Sat Nov 19, 2011 06:57 PM UTC by lwc
Last Updated: Wed Aug 14, 2024 09:18 AM UTC
Owner: nobody

When using Hebrew (
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3440038&group_id=5109&atid=105109)
I see no difference whatsoever between MINDED and MINED -E=CP862

This is even though kpdos.htm states:
(13) FreeDOS does not handle bidi scripts natively. A proper bidi text
editor
is required; tested with Mined only. Usage: "MINED -E=CPxxx", typed in
uppercase (xxx=856 won't work on Mined).

Can you please test it again?

Sent from sourceforge.net because you indicated interest in
https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/bugs/87/

To unsubscribe from further messages, please visit
https://sourceforge.net/auth/subscriptions/

[fritz.mueller]

From my side there are some questions too:
a) You wrote "script"? Does this NOT affect all texts, e.g. documents etc?
b) "(i.e. this gets reversed to siht)" I think this is a bad to understand example. I didn't at the beginning. Something like:
To be able to read:
"This is a text."
in bidi (from right to left) you have to type:
".txet a si sihT"
in standard DOS editors. As this is almost unduable you need special editors like
mined? What happens if you type: ".txet a si sihT" into a standard editor with your codepage?
If I understand correct this is readable for you but of course very hard to write.
c) Just to be sure: Mined does not need the FD codepage as they are built in? But you need an FD codepage 856 (or another one marked with (13) ) if you want to read the text with another editor, e.g. "edit"?
d) If c) is correct: Are the characters shown correct with a standard editorif you read from right to left?
Sorry, but I am not very familiar with reading from right to left.

[Aitor Santamaría Merino]

Hello,

On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 at 15:05, fritz.mueller willy-billy@users.sourceforge.net wrote:

From my side there are some questions too:
a) You wrote "script"? Does this NOT affect all texts, e.g. documents
etc?

Right-to-left would affect any text printed on text mode.

b) "(i.e. this gets reversed to siht)" I think this is a bad to understand
example. I didn't at the beginning. Something like:
To be able to read:
"This is a text."
in bidi (from right to left) you have to type:
".txet a si sihT"
in standard DOS editors. As this is almost unduable you need special
editors like
mined? What happens if you type: ".txet a si sihT" into a standard editor
with your codepage?
If I understand correct this is readable for you but of course very hard
to write.

Codepages have nothing to do with text direction, or the order in which
characters are written to screen.
I also fail to understand how this relates to KPDOS.

If you output strings to screen, either you write to DOS' CON (and thus,
CON should deal with this), or directly use BIOS/hardware, and in that
case, it is up to you to deal with it.

c) Just to be sure: Mined does not need the FD codepage as they are built
in? But you need an FD codepage 856 (or another one marked with (13) ) if
you want to read the text with another editor, e.g. "edit"?

I don't know about MINED.
FD-EDIT is a text-mode tool and relies entirely on DOS/BIOS to write
whatever character glyphs to screen. But by no means is it able to write
right to left, because it hasn't been programmed to do so, no matter the
codepage. As said before, text direction has nothing to do with codepages.

d) If c) is correct: Are the characters shown correct with a standard
editorif you read from right to left?
Sorry, but I am not very familiar with reading from right to left.

---

[bugs:#87] https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/bugs/87/ MINED -E=CP862
doesn't enable bidi

Status: open
Group:
Labels: Help
Created: Sat Nov 19, 2011 06:57 PM UTC by lwc
Last Updated: Wed Aug 14, 2024 09:09 PM UTC
Owner: nobody

When using Hebrew (
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3440038&group_id=5109&atid=105109)
I see no difference whatsoever between MINDED and MINED -E=CP862

This is even though kpdos.htm states:
(13) FreeDOS does not handle bidi scripts natively. A proper bidi text
editor
is required; tested with Mined only. Usage: "MINED -E=CPxxx", typed in
uppercase (xxx=856 won't work on Mined).

Can you please test it again?

Sent from sourceforge.net because you indicated interest in
https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/bugs/87/

To unsubscribe from further messages, please visit
https://sourceforge.net/auth/subscriptions/

[lwc]

I feel this is getting much more complicated than it is:

1. Use keyb to activate a right-to-left language
2. In that language, type something like this and it will become siht ekil gnihtemos
3. But if you just run Mined without any parameters, and inside it type in that languagesomething like this than it will stay like that without getting reversed

Meaning:

1. Mined just automatically detects the typed characters and activates bidi if the detection indicates those characters require it.
2. The person who wrote the original comment just meant keyb in itself unfortunately doesn't support bidi, so it takes a third party program, for example the editor Mined.

So how about rewriting the comment into:

(13) FreeDOS does not handle bidi scripts natively (i.e. something like this will become siht ekil gnihtemos). For proper bidi support, a third party program is required, for example the editor Mined, which just automatically supports bidi if the user types right-to-left characters.

[Aitor Santamaría Merino]

What does keyb have to do with right-to-left?

On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 at 13:33, lwc l-w-c@users.sourceforge.net wrote:

I feel this is getting much more complicated than it is:

1. Use keyb to activate a right-to-left language
2. In that language, type something like this and it will become siht
   ekil gnihtemos
3. But if you just run mined without any parameters, and inside it
   type in that languagesomething like this than it will stay like that
   without getting reversed

Meaning:

1. Mined just automatically detects the typed characters and activates
   bidi if the detection indicates those characters require it.
2. The person who wrote the original comment just meant keyb in itself
   unfortunately doesn't support bidi, so it takes a third party program, for
   example the editor Mined.

So how about rewriting the comment into:

(13) FreeDOS does not handle bidi scripts natively (i.e. something like
this will become siht ekil gnihtemos). For proper bidi support, a third
party program is required, for example the editor Mined, which
automatically supports bidi if the user types right-to-left characters.

---

[bugs:#87] https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/bugs/87/ MINED -E=CP862
doesn't enable bidi

Status: open
Group:
Labels: Help
Created: Sat Nov 19, 2011 06:57 PM UTC by lwc
Last Updated: Thu Aug 15, 2024 01:05 PM UTC
Owner: nobody

When using Hebrew (
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3440038&group_id=5109&atid=105109)
I see no difference whatsoever between MINDED and MINED -E=CP862

This is even though kpdos.htm states:
(13) FreeDOS does not handle bidi scripts natively. A proper bidi text
editor
is required; tested with Mined only. Usage: "MINED -E=CPxxx", typed in
uppercase (xxx=856 won't work on Mined).

Can you please test it again?

Sent from sourceforge.net because you indicated interest in
https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/bugs/87/

To unsubscribe from further messages, please visit
https://sourceforge.net/auth/subscriptions/

[lwc]

if keyb turns your keyboard into a right-to-left language but have you type it left-to-right, it means you have to type everything reversed, so you can't really work like that.
Obviously the person who wrote the original comment felt so too, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to mention it doesn't support bidi (meaning they knew right-to-left users will ask about it).

[Aitor Santamaría Merino]

I am sorry but KEYB doesn't do such things as to "turn into a
right-to-left" language.
Supporting right-to-left languages would be a feature request (for kernel
at least).

Nevertheless, the user that opened the bug is not complaining about
right-to-left languages, (it was Henrique who wrote that bidi is not
supported, and he is right), (s)he says to retest MINED (but it is not
mentioned why?), so should be assigned to MINED.

Aitor

On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 at 20:02, lwc l-w-c@users.sourceforge.net wrote:

if keyb turns your keyboard into a right-to-left language but have you
type it left-to-right, it means you have to type everything reversed, so
you can't really work like that.
Obviously the person who wrote the original comment felt so too, otherwise
he wouldn't have bothered to mention it doesn't support bidi.

---

[bugs:#87] https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/bugs/87/ MINED -E=CP862
doesn't enable bidi

Status: open
Group:
Labels: Help
Created: Sat Nov 19, 2011 06:57 PM UTC by lwc
Last Updated: Fri Aug 16, 2024 11:33 AM UTC
Owner: nobody

When using Hebrew (
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3440038&group_id=5109&atid=105109)
I see no difference whatsoever between MINDED and MINED -E=CP862

This is even though kpdos.htm states:
(13) FreeDOS does not handle bidi scripts natively. A proper bidi text
editor
is required; tested with Mined only. Usage: "MINED -E=CPxxx", typed in
uppercase (xxx=856 won't work on Mined).

Can you please test it again?

Sent from sourceforge.net because you indicated interest in
https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/bugs/87/

To unsubscribe from further messages, please visit
https://sourceforge.net/auth/subscriptions/

[lwc]

I just meant keyb lets you type letters of right-to-left languages, but due to the lack of bidi support it actually types them left-to-right.
Again, that person just meant a third party tool like Mined is needed to actually type right-to-left.
I suggest just use "So how about rewriting the comment into:".

[fritz.mueller]

What about this text, it is not country specific, and says everything that people that use bidi need. Other people will be not interested in it. More information about mined is the job of mined help.
I think this enough.

(13) FreeDOS supports these codepages, but it does NOT support bidi, means, it cannot write from right to left as it is done in parts of the world ("Something like this" will have to be typed "siht ekil gnihtemoS" in FreeDOS.
For proper bidi support, a third party program is required, for example the editor "Mined".

[lwc]

1. You forgot to close the brackets.
2. means, should be meaning.
3. I think it should state what actually will happen, not what could happen.
4. I think part of the reason Mined is a good example is that it automatically does it, so why not mention it?

Therefore, I propose:

(13) FreeDOS supports these codepages, but it does NOT support bidi, meaning it cannot write from right to left as is done in those parts of the world (in those languages Something like this will thus become siht ekil gnihtemoS in FreeDOS).
For proper bidi support, a third party program is required, for example the editor "Mined" which automatically supports bidi.

[fritz.mueller]

I feel this is getting much more complicated than it is:

Just for info:
It is becoming more complicated as FDT2408 says it supports is keyboard, but I noticed that it uses mkeyb which requires the right CTRL (Strg) button - and virtualbox uses this for other purposes. So I will have to run tests on bare metal to see what really happens. This may last a while.

[lwc]

Where do you see that? The changelog mentions both (and also xkeyb), but calls mkeyb "unstable".
Besides, what does it have to do with wrong documentation about Mined?
Unless you claim the "unstable" mkeyb has bidi support which I seriously doubt.
Also note it's older than keyb (but at least not as old as xkeyb).