I wanna say great game and congratulations for all developers and contributors!, i'm reading the code to make a contrib..!
An idea that i consider great is the posibility to get resources away 2 tiles from my colony each tile away means 1 or 1/2 turns to get resources is excelent if you don't have silver or ore near you right?
Whats your opinion?
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I think it would change the game balance considerably, and probably not for the better. As you may know, the designers of the original game planned for a two-tile radius, but disabled it at the last minute, due to game play considerations.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Maybe this would be acceptable if it were strictly limited by a set of preconditions, e.g.:
- Requires construction of a special building, e.g. city hall
- This building only becomes available when some new FF has joined (this FF might only become available after e.g. 1650) and can only be built with a very high minimum population (e.g. 12 or more).
Once a city has reached this "metropolis" status, additional warehouse extensions and maybe other buildings become available (perhaps extending the number of workers from 3 to 4 or 5).
The gain of this idea would be to reduce micromanagement in the endgame, as less but bigger cities become viable.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Given suitable restrictions, the idea becomes viable. However, we would have to rewrite the Colony Panel to make room for the additional tiles. Goodbye, netbooks!
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Yea, I thought about this too, I keep thinking about how the french extracted heaps of furs from all of the Mississippi basin, but had hardly any one there, or the Spanish with their silver mines.
Just off the top of my head, I'd say it ought to work a bit like the missionary. You send a expert unit to a tile, and "establish out post" the unit disappears as a icon, and they generate an appropriate resource. For balance, here are my ideas:
An outpost needs a dedicated professional AND a dedicated wagon train. (also maybe only allow the two mine types, and fur trapping?)
the outpost has to be supported by food from a colony (maybe 3,4, or even more food units?)
outpost only generates the experts resource, maybe a -1 or so penalty for wastage because it's far away?
outpost has limited storage, 100 units? (less?) this could be the wastage factor, if you are generating 8 silver bars a turn, and a wagon train takes 15 turns for a round trip, you are loosing 20 silver. Maybe only storage of 50 units at an outpost, for a good distance penalty.
the wagon train moves normally and is vulnerable to attack
outpost generates native alarm
outpost can be slaughtered by natives, captured(or slaughtered) by euros, and it has very low defense on it's own. (but maybe you can sit military units on top of it??)
So, you have the issue that if you put an outpost on the other side of the map, it's a bit of a waste, because the wagon train can't get resources to the colony fast enough before storage at the outpost is full. Also, Indians and Euros can attack the train enroute. You can't have only outposts, because you need the colonies to generate the food to support them, and take in the generated resources. You have to defend outposts, and build (and defend) roads to them if you want to get their full utility.
I see this as being a big boost to the French model. Because you are friendly with the natives, you are less likely to get an outpost or wagon train slaughtered. It's a big incentive to explore, and get experts developed. With only furs and mines, it would favor the early moneymaking, but be a drag on indigenous population growth from food production. The other downside is that the outposts drain defense away from colonies, and will never be as secure as a settlement, as military units are in the open. Also, maybe outposts drain liberty bells? not sure how to handle that aspect.
I think it would add a nice new level of historical realism and open up new some very interesting strategies, with a bit of thought to balance.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
"Outposts" have been suggested before - but the next question always is: "What does an outpost do better than a colony?" Basically, there has to be a reason for the player to actually build this outpost instead of:
1. building a colony using an expert unit (or two experts + a farmer)
2. creating a standard trade route that gets resources from there to another colony
This colony would get up to two times an expert production plus that of the center tile of the resource you want, and it would even do that without needing outside support (lose the extra farmer, and you even can have the necessity of outside support, if you wish). It seems to be at least equal (if not better) than the suggested "outpost" in every regard. So, where's the incentive to build "real outposts" instead of "colony outposts"?
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Some good points ( I tried out your idea last night in a new game), but the way I see it the advantages over just founding another colony would be:
1. you can put an outpost anywhere, a sliver mine on a mountain completely surrounded by tunda, can't do that by founding a colony.
2. You put the outpost ON the resource tile, not next to it. there are two points here:
1. In a colony, at least in theory, you can loose access to a tile if a hostile euro fortifies on it. ( I think, I'm pretty sure than happened to me in the original col.
2. You'd have to pay natives for TWO parcels of land, with an outpost, it'd just be one parcel you'd take up.
3. A colony can be burned, or taken over. If you have 10,000 gold and 5 colonies, and your outpost gets taken over, you loose a substantial sum. I'd envision an outpost just gets slaughtered, like a pioneer.
I think those are the real meaty points, but there are a few others I think a worth thinking about.
4. Nuisance factor. Having a colony means you get nagged about production, and liberty bells, new colonists, and whatever. That's fine for a colony, which is supposed to represent a substantial growing settlement with a diverse population and a long future (like Boston). An outpost would just run silently, exactly like a missionary does. Basically, it's a missionary for resources.
5. Historical accuracy. There are plenty of sites in the Americas that were just resource extraction points and now lie abandoned, this type of activity was certainly used. I've played freeciv as well as freecol, but I'm WAAAAAY more addicted to freecol, and it's because I really love the more limited but more detailed scope.
And I guess that last point sort of says it all. Everybody has different playing styles. For example, I don't ever use missionaries, even when I play the Spanish. I just find native converts too annoying to deal with. I get how to use a strategy to take advantage of them, but I'm just not too interested in it. I don't build outpost colonies, I like to build a series of colonies one right next to the other (now that I think about it, I'm playing SimCity 1650!!!). If I had the ability to make outposts, I'd do it. Maybe you wouldn't, but there you go.
Anyway, I guess it's up to the developers, who have lots of things to do, and I don't necessarily think what I've outlined here is fully formed, but the idea of an outpost gets a very big +1 from me.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I like the outpost idea, and bwgia is correct that the concept would be historically accurate.
The way I see It, a Outpost would be need to be made by a colonist (thus consuming the colonist for the duration of the outpost), the outpost would need to limit itself to
• a single tile
• a single resource
• have a limited amount of space for that resource, which
• needs to be traded with via a wagon train or naval transport. (enabling trade routes, of course)
Further, ouposts need to be vulnerable (naturally you could defend them with military units), but in any case, an unprotected outpost can be
• raided (take the goods) by natives
• destroyed (leading to that the goods are lost, the outpost destroyed and the colonist lost.
But definitely a 2.0 -feature IMHO.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Anonymous
-
2012-07-22
I second bwgia and pekkabuttler: outposts would be great.
Some thoughts on different types of outposts:
Mines for extracting silver and ore
Plantations for plant resources
Also, outposts should be the preferred place to put criminals, since these types of places would have been used for them in real life anyway. Maybe they could have a production bonus when placed there?
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Anonymous
-
2012-07-22
More thoughts:
Criminals should only get a production bonus in outposts if there is an overseer over them. An overseer could be an indentured servant. The overseer should make demands from time to time (e.g. some rum, a little extra pay). If those demands are continually not satisfied, he should go over to the slaves and lead a revolt. If it succeeds because there are too few soldiers, the outpost vanishes. Otherwise, the overseer is downgraded to a criminal and all production bonuses are lost.
Also, the plantations should have to be within a certain radius (say, 3 units) from a colony, but mines should be any distance.
Third, there must be food transported to the mines by wagon trains to feed the workers. Plantations, necessarily would produce their own food.
Finally, you should be able to put soldiers in the various outposts and assign them to automatically accompany wagon trains to and from the colonies for delivery.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Hi!
I wanna say great game and congratulations for all developers and contributors!, i'm reading the code to make a contrib..!
An idea that i consider great is the posibility to get resources away 2 tiles from my colony each tile away means 1 or 1/2 turns to get resources is excelent if you don't have silver or ore near you right?
Whats your opinion?
I think it would change the game balance considerably, and probably not for the better. As you may know, the designers of the original game planned for a two-tile radius, but disabled it at the last minute, due to game play considerations.
Maybe this would be acceptable if it were strictly limited by a set of preconditions, e.g.:
- Requires construction of a special building, e.g. city hall
- This building only becomes available when some new FF has joined (this FF might only become available after e.g. 1650) and can only be built with a very high minimum population (e.g. 12 or more).
Once a city has reached this "metropolis" status, additional warehouse extensions and maybe other buildings become available (perhaps extending the number of workers from 3 to 4 or 5).
The gain of this idea would be to reduce micromanagement in the endgame, as less but bigger cities become viable.
Given suitable restrictions, the idea becomes viable. However, we would have to rewrite the Colony Panel to make room for the additional tiles. Goodbye, netbooks!
Yea, I thought about this too, I keep thinking about how the french extracted heaps of furs from all of the Mississippi basin, but had hardly any one there, or the Spanish with their silver mines.
Just off the top of my head, I'd say it ought to work a bit like the missionary. You send a expert unit to a tile, and "establish out post" the unit disappears as a icon, and they generate an appropriate resource. For balance, here are my ideas:
An outpost needs a dedicated professional AND a dedicated wagon train. (also maybe only allow the two mine types, and fur trapping?)
the outpost has to be supported by food from a colony (maybe 3,4, or even more food units?)
outpost only generates the experts resource, maybe a -1 or so penalty for wastage because it's far away?
outpost has limited storage, 100 units? (less?) this could be the wastage factor, if you are generating 8 silver bars a turn, and a wagon train takes 15 turns for a round trip, you are loosing 20 silver. Maybe only storage of 50 units at an outpost, for a good distance penalty.
the wagon train moves normally and is vulnerable to attack
outpost generates native alarm
outpost can be slaughtered by natives, captured(or slaughtered) by euros, and it has very low defense on it's own. (but maybe you can sit military units on top of it??)
So, you have the issue that if you put an outpost on the other side of the map, it's a bit of a waste, because the wagon train can't get resources to the colony fast enough before storage at the outpost is full. Also, Indians and Euros can attack the train enroute. You can't have only outposts, because you need the colonies to generate the food to support them, and take in the generated resources. You have to defend outposts, and build (and defend) roads to them if you want to get their full utility.
I see this as being a big boost to the French model. Because you are friendly with the natives, you are less likely to get an outpost or wagon train slaughtered. It's a big incentive to explore, and get experts developed. With only furs and mines, it would favor the early moneymaking, but be a drag on indigenous population growth from food production. The other downside is that the outposts drain defense away from colonies, and will never be as secure as a settlement, as military units are in the open. Also, maybe outposts drain liberty bells? not sure how to handle that aspect.
I think it would add a nice new level of historical realism and open up new some very interesting strategies, with a bit of thought to balance.
"Outposts" have been suggested before - but the next question always is: "What does an outpost do better than a colony?" Basically, there has to be a reason for the player to actually build this outpost instead of:
1. building a colony using an expert unit (or two experts + a farmer)
2. creating a standard trade route that gets resources from there to another colony
This colony would get up to two times an expert production plus that of the center tile of the resource you want, and it would even do that without needing outside support (lose the extra farmer, and you even can have the necessity of outside support, if you wish). It seems to be at least equal (if not better) than the suggested "outpost" in every regard. So, where's the incentive to build "real outposts" instead of "colony outposts"?
Hi abartels,
Some good points ( I tried out your idea last night in a new game), but the way I see it the advantages over just founding another colony would be:
1. you can put an outpost anywhere, a sliver mine on a mountain completely surrounded by tunda, can't do that by founding a colony.
2. You put the outpost ON the resource tile, not next to it. there are two points here:
1. In a colony, at least in theory, you can loose access to a tile if a hostile euro fortifies on it. ( I think, I'm pretty sure than happened to me in the original col.
2. You'd have to pay natives for TWO parcels of land, with an outpost, it'd just be one parcel you'd take up.
3. A colony can be burned, or taken over. If you have 10,000 gold and 5 colonies, and your outpost gets taken over, you loose a substantial sum. I'd envision an outpost just gets slaughtered, like a pioneer.
I think those are the real meaty points, but there are a few others I think a worth thinking about.
4. Nuisance factor. Having a colony means you get nagged about production, and liberty bells, new colonists, and whatever. That's fine for a colony, which is supposed to represent a substantial growing settlement with a diverse population and a long future (like Boston). An outpost would just run silently, exactly like a missionary does. Basically, it's a missionary for resources.
5. Historical accuracy. There are plenty of sites in the Americas that were just resource extraction points and now lie abandoned, this type of activity was certainly used. I've played freeciv as well as freecol, but I'm WAAAAAY more addicted to freecol, and it's because I really love the more limited but more detailed scope.
And I guess that last point sort of says it all. Everybody has different playing styles. For example, I don't ever use missionaries, even when I play the Spanish. I just find native converts too annoying to deal with. I get how to use a strategy to take advantage of them, but I'm just not too interested in it. I don't build outpost colonies, I like to build a series of colonies one right next to the other (now that I think about it, I'm playing SimCity 1650!!!). If I had the ability to make outposts, I'd do it. Maybe you wouldn't, but there you go.
Anyway, I guess it's up to the developers, who have lots of things to do, and I don't necessarily think what I've outlined here is fully formed, but the idea of an outpost gets a very big +1 from me.
You can always contribute code yourself. If the features are optional, they are likely to be accepted.
I like the outpost idea, and bwgia is correct that the concept would be historically accurate.
The way I see It, a Outpost would be need to be made by a colonist (thus consuming the colonist for the duration of the outpost), the outpost would need to limit itself to
• a single tile
• a single resource
• have a limited amount of space for that resource, which
• needs to be traded with via a wagon train or naval transport. (enabling trade routes, of course)
Further, ouposts need to be vulnerable (naturally you could defend them with military units), but in any case, an unprotected outpost can be
• raided (take the goods) by natives
• destroyed (leading to that the goods are lost, the outpost destroyed and the colonist lost.
But definitely a 2.0 -feature IMHO.
I second bwgia and pekkabuttler: outposts would be great.
Some thoughts on different types of outposts:
Mines for extracting silver and ore
Plantations for plant resources
Also, outposts should be the preferred place to put criminals, since these types of places would have been used for them in real life anyway. Maybe they could have a production bonus when placed there?
More thoughts:
Criminals should only get a production bonus in outposts if there is an overseer over them. An overseer could be an indentured servant. The overseer should make demands from time to time (e.g. some rum, a little extra pay). If those demands are continually not satisfied, he should go over to the slaves and lead a revolt. If it succeeds because there are too few soldiers, the outpost vanishes. Otherwise, the overseer is downgraded to a criminal and all production bonuses are lost.
Also, the plantations should have to be within a certain radius (say, 3 units) from a colony, but mines should be any distance.
Third, there must be food transported to the mines by wagon trains to feed the workers. Plantations, necessarily would produce their own food.
Finally, you should be able to put soldiers in the various outposts and assign them to automatically accompany wagon trains to and from the colonies for delivery.