envolution-devel — Envolution Development List

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:42:28 -0400, TiMax wrote:
>   On 31 Jul 2003 22:20:34 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
>  >   Just this moment people ask me why TiMax is complaining after he
>  >   resigned and a new PM took over.
>   >
>  >   Zoom
>
>   Because i m co-founder and member of Staff, but tell me ...... maybe i=
 disturb you ?
>
>   do you want to leave all or do you want i close my mouth ??
>
>   I have no problem ..... just le me know :) and i can take my decisions
>
>   TiMax

And remember with my cheap and very poor english but i talk not only for me=
 but also for all people unable to write 
english .......

Max

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

On 31 Jul 2003 22:20:34 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
>   > How you can put these news wihout have talk with others developers ??
>   > 
>
>   Development is open totally Max....but the server migration, domain,
>   transfers, and DNS issues are not related to develoment. They are
>   logistical issue that do not need to be run by every tom, dick, or=
 harry
>   in the community.

I don't talk about server migration domain transfes etc ... i talk about=
 vision and roadmap contents ...... in the news

>
>   You didn't consult with community members about putting up slow java
>   applets did you? No you didn't. 

Sorry for you but i have consult with some member of sta also for slow java=
 applets, i put java applets instead dhtml 
scroller because some of our staff have trouble with some OS and browser to=
 see dhtml.


You didn't consult the community when
>   adding "fill in the blank here".

Can you explain that ?

Max

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

On 31 Jul 2003 22:20:34 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
>   Just this moment people ask me why TiMax is complaining after he
>   resigned and a new PM took over.
>
>   Zoom

Because i m co-founder and member of Staff, but tell me ...... maybe i=
 disturb you ? 

do you want to leave all or do you want i close my mouth ??

I have no problem ..... just le me know :) and i can take my decisions

TiMax 

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

On 31 Jul 2003 22:20:34 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
>   On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 16:50, TiMax wrote:
>   > >   > We already start to have two branch of development of=
 eNvolution
>   > >
>   > >   Are you saying you've split development?
>   > 
>   > Yes we have split development. like stefan have writed in mailing list=
 we have split and start with envo 1.3 in 
new
>   > branch with new directory structure and envo125FLS be our stable=
 release.
>   > 
>
>   Well we wish you luck with your new fork Max.

???????????
What you have understand ? Split development in eNvolution cvs ... check it=
 .... i not another fork is always eNvolution 
with two branch of developement.


>   > and what you mean with
>   > " While TiMax's leadership and vision will surely be missed ... "
>
>   It means we were sad to see you resign and will miss you. It was a huge
>   complement ApathyBoy gave you.

I think nobody understand that ....... otherwise why lot of people write me=
 about it 

Max

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 16:50, TiMax wrote:
> >   > We already start to have two branch of development of eNvolution
> >
> >   Are you saying you've split development?
> 
> Yes we have split development. like stefan have writed in mailing list we have split and start with envo 1.3 in new 
> branch with new directory structure and envo125FLS be our stable release.
> 

Well we wish you luck with your new fork Max.


> and what you mean with 
> " While TiMax's leadership and vision will surely be missed ... " 

It means we were sad to see you resign and will miss you. It was a huge
complement ApathyBoy gave you.

> 
> and 
> 
> " The current plans for the Envolution project are to take the current code base, (1.2.5 FLS), and put it back on track 
> with the original Vision and Roadmap "

It means to take the current code base and clean out all the pnHTML crap
that should have been removed a long long time ago. Thats all. It means
we plan to improve it.

> 
> and 
> " The choice was made after careful consideration to start with a clean install "
> 

I've already explained this several times to you in private and in
public. The clean install was because we didn't think we would be able
to merge the sql dumps into the new server. Once again I will repeat
that this was overcome and is a non-issue now.


> How you can put these news wihout have talk with others developers ??
> 

Development is open totally Max....but the server migration, domain,
transfers, and DNS issues are not related to develoment. They are
logistical issue that do not need to be run by every tom, dick, or harry
in the community.

You didn't consult with community members about putting up slow java
applets did you? No you didn't. You didn't consult the community when
adding "fill in the blank here".

Fact is Max administering the DNS and servers is not in the area of
relevance to developers of the software. Period.

> Don't misunderstood me, i know that Apathboy is a good boy and good developer, and i m sure he can make a good job, but 
> i mean that he must talk and hear all developers and staff, and only after he can take his and last decision, because 
> sure he is PM so last decision is her, but .... again .... only after talked and hear all ....
> 

Good. Now back off and let him do his job. Constant criticism is what
you said one of the reasons you quit. Now your dishing out the same
thing you didn't want yourself.


> But do you want eNvolution to continue work and development or do you want eNvolution only for his name ??
> 

I will make sure Envolution is everything you, brandon, brian, and I
started. Nothing changed.

> I know Zoom you make very good job and with passion, also if you use linux but stop please to say that i give you only 7 
> days, i already tell you  take your time all data still in my server and i don't have problem 
> 

You said you wanted it handled quickly. After I tried to ralk you out of
it over three of those days you insisted you we quitting. So I took you
at your word and did exaclty as you asked and now your bitching to me
about it? Thats really unfair.

> Last time we work around this transfer, i send you all data in different format, i help you to add all domains in your 
> control panel, i give you all access in all administration sourgeforce, site, mailing list, ftp, database,  bla bla, but 
> i say you also that for me the best procedure to transfert all is  
> 
> 1 transfer envolution.info (now it is not used), in you server and work to put online site and test all ....
> envolution.com still in my server online.
> 
> 2 when all is ok in your server with envolution.info domain, we can update database with last data and, i can add
> redirect in envolution.com versus envoltuion.info in your server.
> 
> 3 so in same time all people tipyng www.envolution.com are redirect in www.envolution.info site in your server and we
> can transfer also www.envolution.com domain.
> 
> 4 when envolution.com domain is in your server you can manage it like you want ... .in this way you can manage maybe
> also
> 

I have no clue what your talking about here. DNS shows the domains are
propagated now so this is a non issue.

All domains point to the server envolution.com is on now except for the
one you requested I point to envolution.de.

Again I facilitated right away what you asked me to do...now your
complaining because I did it?? That soesnt make sense.

> I work with you in 27-28 july around it and we have start procedure to transfer envolution.info .org . biz  france and
> canada to make steps i talk before ....
> 
> ...... the day after i see that .. also envolution.com and envolution.net start to be transfered ....  i found new
> envolution.com site, with news with lot of changements new vision bla bla bla ........ and all is new for me like to all 
> other people.
> 
> So again, i don't have any problem with Apathboy and i m happy to help and support he, i m here but maybe he must 
> re-think a little what he write and talk with other before post important news.
> 
> Timax 
> 
> p.s. Just in this moment another people ask me why new eNvo leader are so angry with me and old development.
> 

Just this moment people ask me why TiMax is complaining after he
resigned and a new PM took over.

Zoom

Re: [Envolution-devel] Old Data mostly restored

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

Good job Scott and don't worry ..... all people know or i want remember that=
 you make always good and lot of job with 
passion.

I need only to thank you for all times you help me, also to decode and=
 translate in english my poor english.

So Scott .... thanks 

TiMax 

On 31 Jul 2003 14:33:26 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
>   I have fixed the data migration issues and have the old website moslty
>   restored now.
>
>   I will update the site with the news articles (theres only two of them)
>   later tonight and fix any little issue that may crop up.
>
>   Zoom
>
>
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Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

On 31 Jul 2003 12:32:39 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
>   On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 10:40, TiMax wrote:
>   > Hello ap,
>   >
>   > sorry but i m blasted from you
>   >
>   > I think is not nice your behavior toward me (like old PM), toward=
 italian community, toward our last year of work.
>   >
>
>   I think you misunderstood him Max.

Maybe i misunderstood and with me lot of other people, i think always that=
 is not nice behavior of AP toward me (like 
old PM), toward italian community, toward our last year of our work and=
 toward all international support sites and to 
not english people.

Because of AP news lot of Italian users ask me why new leadership are so=
 angry with italian community, and not only 
italian community, or do you want i forward you some italian, french,=
 canadian, german emails and lot of others i 
received and they are also very worry about future.

So i think that is not only my idea ..... is a general idea.


>   > I don't agree also about your idea to put news about vision and=
 roadmap before and only after ask to have meeting 
chat
>   > with other developers, what happen if all other developers want to=
 develope all in another way from your vision 
that you
>   > have publishied in site ?
>
>   No vision or roadmap was put up. In fact It wont be put up till after
>   the meeting. So again I think you misunderstood him.

oh yes ? and what is about 
>Over the course of the next several months we will begin working on the=
 Envolution code base in order to bring it up to 
>compliance with version 1.3.0 of the Envolution roadmap. This will happen=
 in four main phases:
>- Code Base 1.2.6
>- Code Base 1.2.7
>- Code Base 1.2.8
>- Code Base 1.2.9
and bla bla bla  ???

i know i m not good in english but i m able to read, and also other people,=
 good in english language have understand 
same things like me 

>   > Maybe, i think,  is better before have chat with people and after put=
 news in site
>   >
>
>   Thats why there is a meeting saturday on IRC.

That is nice, but i think meeting must be BEFORE post any news about roadmab=
 and future of eNvolution

but is only my 2 cents

>   > Lot of people are lazy and tell me that, is strange because i talk=
 about that i leave but is normal rotation of 
rules in
>   > eNvolution and currents leaders talk about ..... " are you ready to=
 change ?
>
>   Well Max there was a change. You resigned and a new person is the PM
>   now...so there was change. Change should be expected. You changed=
 things
>   when you took over and it should be no different to expect changes when
>   a new leader steps in. You should wait until meeting with him before
>   passing judgement. The only thing thats changes so far is the website
>   and DNS. Im working on restoring from the data you provded to me so
>   please be a little patient.

Yes but nobody know this leader,  that is the problem, in same thing i write=
 this email Tinta of Polish support site ask 
me what happen, he don't understan, he are worry ... but he can read a news=
 about future of eNvolution in english site 
and ask me what is and what mean this news,  me also i don't know what mean=
 .... 

Who have read this news before be published ?


>   > , old vision is not correct, now we change
>   > all...."  lot of user, and i talk also about professional user, don't=
 like it and are worry about that.
>   >
>
>   Change usually woriies people because of the fear of the unknown. No=
 one
>   know s what exactly is changeing so they feel worried about it. Well
>   attend the meeting give your input and listen to new ideas and even old
>   ones and then determine if you should still be worried. I think you=
 will
>   be pleasantly surprised.

Nobody talk about change .... this is not a problem, but i repeat .. order=
 is not right 
. before meeting and after news.

>   > Why you use irc chat ? lot of people don't like or can't use it, why=
 you don't use easy Spchat.
>
>   Mainly cause Ive never heard about it. Secondly IRC is a long time
>   internet standard communication protocol.

IRC is also a long time banned from lot of schools and company.

>   > And do you have think about all people unable to talk english language=
 ?
>
>   No. But those same people who dont speak english wouldnt be reading=
 this
>   list either. So whats your point Max? 

Are you sure ??  
Maybe they are unable to write but able to read english language, check how=
 many people are subscribed and how many 
people write in this mailing list 
Maybe i talk also from other people .... because they are unable to write in=
 english, (me also eheh) now i talk with 
Frank, italian developer and he tell me ... grrrrrr i m able to read but i m=
 unable to comment.
But for someone people like Frank don't exist.

> There is no one person who can speak every language know to every possible=
 member of the community. So
>   until someone who can and has the ability to lead a project of this=
 size
>   language will alsways be a barrier. Logs of all meetings will be posted
>   and someone can tranlate them. Also international communities can also
>   appoint one person who can speak their language and english to attend
>   and speak on their behalf.

That  maybe only maybe, can be right, but i don't see any reference to all=
 international support sites and so order now 
is  meeting, publish meeting wait a little to hear answer and take decision=
 and put news.

>   > We already start to have two branch of development of eNvolution
>
>   Are you saying you've split development?

Yes we have split development. like stefan have writed in mailing list we=
 have split and start with envo 1.3 in new 
branch with new directory structure and envo125FLS be our stable release.


>   First off Max Im starting to get the impression you are the one
>   aggitating here. No one is changng any vision yet. No meeting has taken
>   pace yet...no changed vision or roadmap has been published. Only a
>   though as to returning to the oriinal roadmap of which changes can be
>   made and incorportaed. I think you speak before you think.

i m very calm ..... 
But so what is news about Future of eNvolution ?
for example ..... and .... if all staff don't want to be compatible with=
 Postnuke ?

>   > you want to follow Postnuke developement, have you think about=
 directory structure ? but have you talk about that 
with
>   > other developers ? maybe someone can have advanced developement in=
 another directory structure.
>   >
>
>   Again since no meeting has taken place yet your statement is based on
>   nothing but impatient speculation Max. We will not be follwoing PN
>   development. There will be an empahsis placed on mainataining
>   compatability during the 1.x development which is something you always
>   wanted to have in the first place.


So AGAIN SINCE NO MEETING has take ... no news must be published about=
 future of eNvolution ... 

but is only my 2 cents

>   > Please re-think a little .... and respect lot of work others=
 developers, supporters, writers, translators have 
maked in
>   > last year.
>   >
>   > TiMax
>   >
>   While you sit accusiong people of not respecting other maybe you should
>   do the same and give a little respect too.

and what you mean with 
" While TiMax's leadership and vision will surely be missed ... " 

and 

" The current plans for the Envolution project are to take the current code=
 base, (1.2.5 FLS), and put it back on track 
with the original Vision and Roadmap "

and 
" The choice was made after careful consideration to start with a clean=
 install "

How you can put these news wihout have talk with others developers ??

Don't misunderstood me, i know that Apathboy is a good boy and good=
 developer, and i m sure he can make a good job, but 
i mean that he must talk and hear all developers and staff, and only after=
 he can take his and last decision, because 
sure he is PM so last decision is her, but .... again .... only after talked=
 and hear all ....

Don't misunderstood more me .. and don't take it offensive or personal ... 

But do you want eNvolution to continue work and development or do you want=
 eNvolution only for his name ??

I know Zoom you make very good job and with passion, also if you use linux=
 but stop please to say that i give you only 7 
days, i already tell you  take your time all data still in my server and i=
 don't have problem 

Last time we work around this transfer, i send you all data in different=
 format, i help you to add all domains in your 
control panel, i give you all access in all administration sourgeforce,=
 site, mailing list, ftp, database,  bla bla, but 
i say you also that for me the best procedure to transfert all is  

1 transfer envolution.info (now it is not used), in you server and work to=
 put online site and test all ....
envolution.com still in my server online.

2 when all is ok in your server with envolution.info domain, we can update=
 database with last data and, i can add
redirect in envolution.com versus envoltuion.info in your server.

3 so in same time all people tipyng www.envolution.com are redirect in=
 www.envolution.info site in your server and we
can transfer also www.envolution.com domain.

4 when envolution.com domain is in your server you can manage it like you=
 want ... .in this way you can manage maybe
also

I work with you in 27-28 july around it and we have start procedure to=
 transfer envolution.info .org . biz  france and
canada to make steps i talk before ....

...... the day after i see that .. also envolution.com and envolution.net=
 start to be transfered ....  i found new
envolution.com site, with news with lot of changements new vision bla bla=
 bla ........ and all is new for me like to all 
other people.

So again, i don't have any problem with Apathboy and i m happy to help and=
 support he, i m here but maybe he must 
re-think a little what he write and talk with other before post important=
 news.

Timax 

p.s. Just in this moment another people ask me why new eNvo leader are so=
 angry with me and old development.

[Envolution-devel] Old Data mostly restored

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

I have fixed the data migration issues and have the old website moslty
restored now.

I will update the site with the news articles (theres only two of them)
later tonight and fix any little issue that may crop up.

Zoom

[Envolution-devel] help

[Denver P. Jr. <den...@co...>]

/dcc send cyber pizza ALL

If there is anything at all I can do to help just let me know.  See you
all Saturday.

Re: [Envolution-devel] A great loss

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 12:04, Sjahrazad Alamsjah wrote:
> On 31 Jul 2003 11:12:17 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote
> > [...]
> > All the previsou data is intact and preserved. The problem is in getting
> > the data imported to the new server. The database is so large it chokes
> > part of the way through the process. So I have to manually add them bit
> > by bit. So intead of keeping a static page up with little to no
> > information on it we put up what is there now and explained we will
> > migrate the data over as we can. It is a time consuming process.
> > 
> > Zoom
> 
> Hi Zoom,
> 
> Honestly this is make me surprise!
> 
> I knew the latest database volume, and it is not too big at all. I think 
> there will be no problem to migrate it to another server. It will only take 
> not more than 2 hrs. Why should manually add it?
> 

The server is not local to me. It's hosted. So when uplaoding and
merging the tables phpMyAdmin dies.

I tried ftping the sql dump and running it from the command line but
MySQL dais the insert statements from the old dump were not recognized
by the new version of MySQL and referred nme to the new manual.

I got the old database installed and merged this morning about 730AM so
now I'm just getting ready to get everyiht g restored but honestly Im
bust trying to put out all the fires with emails Im getting from people
who are upset. Remember this all happen so quickly and people are not
giving enough consideration to the effort and time required to merge the
DB, change the DNS, transfer the domains, etc etc.

> If all of you want to replace the theme with yours, thats ok no problem at 
> all. But migrating more than 2 days with all user data lost, asking to re-
> register, no content at all, I really see this is not a professional work.
> 
> What this is all about?
> 
> sjah
> 

The reregister idea was to give people some outlet to ccommunicate
opther than this list. I recieved emails stating it would be better to
put up a bare site instead of leaving up a blank HTML page. So thats
what I did.

Once I finish the restoration I hope people will calm down and not be so
impatient. You would think this was a life or death situation from some
of the emails I received.

Zoom

Rif: Re: Rif: Re: [Envolution-devel] forums

[<Luc...@cs...>]

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DQo=

Re: [Envolution-devel] A great loss

[Sjahrazad A. <sja...@ba...>]

On 31 Jul 2003 11:12:17 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote
> [...]
> All the previsou data is intact and preserved. The problem is in getting
> the data imported to the new server. The database is so large it chokes
> part of the way through the process. So I have to manually add them bit
> by bit. So intead of keeping a static page up with little to no
> information on it we put up what is there now and explained we will
> migrate the data over as we can. It is a time consuming process.
> 
> Zoom

Hi Zoom,

Honestly this is make me surprise!

I knew the latest database volume, and it is not too big at all. I think 
there will be no problem to migrate it to another server. It will only take 
not more than 2 hrs. Why should manually add it?

If all of you want to replace the theme with yours, thats ok no problem at 
all. But migrating more than 2 days with all user data lost, asking to re-
register, no content at all, I really see this is not a professional work.

What this is all about?

sjah

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 10:40, TiMax wrote:
> Hello ap, 
> 
> sorry but i m blasted from you
> 
> I think is not nice your behavior toward me (like old PM), toward italian community, toward our last year of work.
> 

I think you misunderstood him Max.

> I don't agree also about your idea to put news about vision and roadmap before and only after ask to have meeting chat 
> with other developers, what happen if all other developers want to develope all in another way from your vision that you 
> have publishied in site ?

No vision or roadmap was put up. In fact It wont be put up till after
the meeting. So again I think you misunderstood him.

> 
> Maybe, i think,  is better before have chat with people and after put news in site  
> 

Thats why there is a meeting saturday on IRC.

> Lot of people are lazy and tell me that, is strange because i talk about that i leave but is normal rotation of rules in 
> eNvolution and currents leaders talk about ..... " are you ready to change ? 

Well Max there was a change. You resigned and a new person is the PM
now...so there was change. Change should be expected. You changed things
when you took over and it should be no different to expect changes when
a new leader steps in. You should wait until meeting with him before
passing judgement. The only thing thats changes so far is the website
and DNS. Im working on restoring from the data you provded to me so
please be a little patient.

> , old vision is not correct, now we change 
> all...."  lot of user, and i talk also about professional user, don't like it and are worry about that.
> 

Change usually woriies people because of the fear of the unknown. No one
know s what exactly is changeing so they feel worried about it. Well
attend the meeting give your input and listen to new ideas and even old
ones and then determine if you should still be worried. I think you will
be pleasantly surprised.

> Why you use irc chat ? lot of people don't like or can't use it, why you don't use easy Spchat.

Mainly cause Ive never heard about it. Secondly IRC is a long time
internet standard communication protocol.

> 
> And do you have think about all people unable to talk english language ?

No. But those same people who dont speak english wouldnt be reading this
list either. So whats your point Max? There is no one person who can
speak every language know to every possible member of the community. So
until someone who can and has the ability to lead a project of this size
language will alsways be a barrier. Logs of all meetings will be posted
and someone can tranlate them. Also international communities can also
appoint one person who can speak their language and english to attend
and speak on their behalf.

> 
> We already start to have two branch of development of eNvolution

Are you saying you've split development?

> 
> eNvolution 125FLS stable release where maybe we can release little fix 
> 
> eNvolution 1.3x ?? ...... where you can talk about and change a vision if other want that ...
> 
> why you want to change all ?

First off Max Im starting to get the impression you are the one
aggitating here. No one is changng any vision yet. No meeting has taken
pace yet...no changed vision or roadmap has been published. Only a
though as to returning to the oriinal roadmap of which changes can be
made and incorportaed. I think you speak before you think.

> 
> you want to follow Postnuke developement, have you think about directory structure ? but have you talk about that with 
> other developers ? maybe someone can have advanced developement in another directory structure.
> 

Again since no meeting has taken place yet your statement is based on
nothing but impatient speculation Max. We will not be follwoing PN
development. There will be an empahsis placed on mainataining
compatability during the 1.x development which is something you always
wanted to have in the first place.

> Please re-think a little .... and respect lot of work others developers, supporters, writers, translators have maked in 
> last year.
> 
> TiMax
> 
While you sit accusiong people of not respecting other maybe you should
do the same and give a little respect too.

Zoom

Re: Rif: Re: [Envolution-devel] forums

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 11:20, Luc...@cs... wrote:
> If I may express my opinion, it seems to me that there is a little
> partecipation in this moment of changing.
> Perhaps it's for many are on holydays, but in a change like this one I
> expected more people writing and caring about the road that we'll take.
> I've not yet understood why Max left and things have been so quick (I
> believe that Max is a quite determined person [non avermene Max], and I
> have the impression that there is more people happy with it than the
> expected.
> This is the impression that partecipating to this written form of
> communication, in a foreign language gives to me.
> The impression of a steering towards other directions done between few
> people.
> I do not want to star a flame, just inform people, that perhaps are working
> in the migration issue and have no time to spare (we have also a private
> life), of the impression we developers have.

Right now it's all work on the migration. DNS was slow to propagate. 
Domain transfers take between 5-7 days according to the registrar. Some
domains ransferred quick some transferred very slowly. Database is
backed up and old site is archived and safe..no data loast.

But migrating data from a 3.23.54 MySQL server into the new 4.0.14
server run into an unexpected problem. It seems the phpMyAdmin dump of
the databases I receieved do not migrate well into the new MySQL server.

I think I have overcome this so have a little patience please.


> There are almost no update on the CVS, 

I have frozen CVS until we have the meeting this weekend. This was done
for a couple reason. One it gave Sourceforge support staff time to clear
up stale locks left in CVS...that is no completed and I announced that
on this list days ago.

It is also locked because there was no protocol that I am aware of on
who make commits and who doesnt. I also personally went thorugh every
songle developer listed on the SF page and noticed that every siongle
one had admin access to somethign or another in the SF site. This isn't
good policy because it does not have any means to track changes to say
things like forum moderation and task assignments. For example Document
writers should not be assigning tasks to developers and developers
should not be assigning bugs reports to document writers. On top of that
of the 25-35 registered developers only a very few actually participate.
So aftre the meeting those that are no longer participating will be
removed. There is no sense in keeping a bunch of people listed there
when they didnt ever particpate in the first place. This just makes
managing a project harder than it has to be.

After the developer meeting we will restore access and start cleaning up
the repositories. So dont panic please..nothing is wrong. It's just
maintenance and reorganization.

> I've submitted all the bug
> correction of Oracle on the 1.3 (I tell it just to warn people to not
> delete it in the migration process, since someone spoke about 1.2.6 and so
> on) and I'm quite sure we can now say that all the product and all the
> modules are converted to Oracle.

Your work on Oracle integration is nice and needed. Keep up the good
work..just please be aptrient while we finish up the migration and
cleanup please then it'll be back to developing.

> We are now working on LDAP, that's because we finished our vacations and we
> are up to work.
> But my impression is the one of 'the silence before the storm'.
> As we are concerned about the future of the product can someone shed a bit
> of honest point of view?
> Thanks
> Luca


You want an honest point of view? OK. Here is mine: Everyone needs to
realize that with changes we should expect to have a few
problems.....also to expect that the new project manager is a different
person than Max...so his style will be different in leading the project.
So please excercise a little patience while we iron out the problems and
get everything restored. The future of the project IS promising if you
just give it a chance.

Zoom

Rif: Re: [Envolution-devel] forums

[<Luc...@cs...>]

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ZCBhIGJpdA0Kb2YgaG9uZXN0IHBvaW50IG9mIHZpZXc/DQpUaGFua3MNCkx1Y2ENCg==

Re: [Envolution-devel] A great loss

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 02:39, Luc...@cs... wrote:
> I've visited the new envo site, it's a great loss the fact that it wasn't
> possible to keep the old stuff that represented all the support we had in
> terms of answers to problems people had, docs and so on.
> I hope that all that information is not lost and will be recovered in some
> way and written on a faq or something.
> Do you think it could be possible to discuss also on this list about the
> plans about envolution? The roadmap, the targets we have, how do we
> organize.
> Thanks
> Luca

All the previsou data is intact and preserved. The problem is in getting
the data imported to the new server. The database is so large it chokes
part of the way through the process. So I have to manually add them bit
by bit. So intead of keeping a static page up with little to no
information on it we put up what is there now and explained we will
migrate the data over as we can. It is a time consuming process.

Zoom

[Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

Hello ap, 

sorry but i m blasted from you

I think is not nice your behavior toward me (like old PM), toward italian=
 community, toward our last year of work.

I don't agree also about your idea to put news about vision and roadmap=
 before and only after ask to have meeting chat 
with other developers, what happen if all other developers want to develope=
 all in another way from your vision that you 
have publishied in site ?

Maybe, i think,  is better before have chat with people and after put news=
 in site  

Lot of people are lazy and tell me that, is strange because i talk about=
 that i leave but is normal rotation of rules in 
eNvolution and currents leaders talk about ..... " are you ready to change ?=
 , old vision is not correct, now we change 
all...."  lot of user, and i talk also about professional user, don't like=
 it and are worry about that.

Why you use irc chat ? lot of people don't like or can't use it, why you=
 don't use easy Spchat.

And do you have think about all people unable to talk english language ?

We already start to have two branch of development of eNvolution 

eNvolution 125FLS stable release where maybe we can release little fix 

eNvolution 1.3x ?? ...... where you can talk about and change a vision if=
 other want that ...

why you want to change all ?

you want to follow Postnuke developement, have you think about directory=
 structure ? but have you talk about that with 
other developers ? maybe someone can have advanced developement in another=
 directory structure.

Please re-think a little .... and respect lot of work others developers,=
 supporters, writers, translators have maked in 
last year.

TiMax

Re: [Envolution-devel] forums

[gagl <ca...@fr...>]

Hi to evryone,
I'm not partecipating much to the news of the last days, I'm at the sea =
and can't connect much, but I'm astonished (surprised) about what =
happens:
I know, I'm not a founder or a developer of the early years, but I'm in =
italian staff since postnuke.it and then envolution.it: I know many =
names only from postnuke project, who then became envo founders or =
staff, but haven't heard of them since some weeks ago (except for Zoom =
who was more present in last months).=20
In this one a half year Timax set up a new team, with new persons on new =
positions, who made in this short time the difference between PostNuke =
and eNvolution: the italian staff with Nomoreblocks and Visualblocks and =
Oracle-integration, germans with RTE editor and core cleaning , docs and =
much more, Sjah and malesyan with graphics, docs and much more, and many =
more others: a new but very fresh staff working together in =
collaboration and decision democracy....and with many projets and a non =
written new roadmap for this flexible, dynamic and in user's need often =
changing system....
TiMax left project management, but the ideas and the development of this =
new staff was right, since Postnuke copied from us the core....
I noticed in this last days something changed: most of us are waiting =
for something, and the story about Credits for oracle integration, the =
new roadmap of the new leader, who I welcome, ciao Apathyboy, but where =
the word Postnuke appears more often then the word eNvolution, left some =
bitter in our mouths, as we say in Italy.=20
Also the new site, it's not ready, I know, with most of resources that =
will get left: is it so difficult to dump and import a database, as we =
described a lot of times to our users, then to make a "fresh and new =
installation to avoid failures, data integrity...."? A forum is =
important for its history: many of the questions has just been =
discussed: click on Search button....
Let's wait and look what happens... I only hope that decision management =
will be democratical as before and that evrybody in staff, also the non =
founders, will have a voice in roadmap and decisions, to avoid what =
happened with Postnuke.
I'm also waiting for a reply to Peter's comment about relation  =
Postnuke-eNvolution on envo.com site, as many other users or staff to =
understand if we will go on our way, that seemed to be the right one, =
since others copied our code, or we will be submitted to the dev-corps =
and develop with their API's and their needs: become, with a cut&copy, =
Pnlution....
These are only my 2 cents....
capretta

Re: [Envolution-devel] forums

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 06:55:47 -0500, Eric Barr wrote:
>   We are currently working to get all of the important data imported back=
 into
>   the site. These changes, however important they are, cannot be=
 accomplished
>   overnight. They take time! TiMax's departure from the team was both=
 sudden
>   and unexpected, as were the transfer of all the domains to a new server.=
 Had
>   we had our choice in the matter we would have liked to have prepared the=
 new
>   site and had it ready for this, but we can not change what has happened=
 and
>   have to work with what we were givin. In time the site will have a new=
 theme
>   along with all of the old documentation, FAQ"s, and subjects. It has=
 been
>   discussed of setting up a site for all the archive material, and if this=
 is
>   this is indeed possible we will take actions to do so.

Hey AP what is your problem ???

I m not died or i don't have closed all doors for all people.

I m always here, i worked and i work with Zoom to transfer all data, these=
 all data still in my server without any 
problem, i help Zoom to transfer domain name, for now i pay for this=
 transfer, i talk all days with Zoom and when he 
need help or something ... he ask me no problem ..

So what is your problem ? You give impression to all people like all faults=
 are mine and i m a bad boy .... 

Why that ? 

Lot of people tell me that, 

" is strange because i talk about that is normal rotation of rules in=
 eNvolution and like currents leaders talk about 
.... are you ready to change, old vision is not correct, now we change all=
 bla bla bla ...." 

lot of user, and i talk also about professional user, don't like it and are=
 worry about that.

Max

[Envolution-devel] Out for the afternoon

[Eric B. <apa...@xe...>]

I will be out for the afternoon today until 11pm EST. Everybody play nice
while I'm gone! :)

If anybody has anything they need to discuss with me, please send an email
to apa...@en... and i will reply when i get back.

Thanks!

Eric Barr (a.k.a. ApathyBoy)
Project Manager - Envolution

Re: [Envolution-devel] A great loss

[Eric B. <apa...@xe...>]

We are working on getting all of the documentation and important information
back into the site, it will just take a bit of time to do by hand. It will
be back up soon though :)

As far as discussions for the plans of Envolution, these threads are the
place to post your ideas/comments/concerns. We are also planning on a
meeting this saturday at 10am EST where many of these things will be
discussed. I hope that you can make it!

Eric Barr (a.k.a. ApathyBoy)
Project Manager - Envolution

----- Original Message -----
From: <Luc...@cs...>
To: <env...@li...>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 2:39 AM
Subject: [Envolution-devel] A great loss


>
> I've visited the new envo site, it's a great loss the fact that it wasn't
> possible to keep the old stuff that represented all the support we had in
> terms of answers to problems people had, docs and so on.
> I hope that all that information is not lost and will be recovered in some
> way and written on a faq or something.
> Do you think it could be possible to discuss also on this list about the
> plans about envolution? The roadmap, the targets we have, how do we
> organize.
> Thanks
> Luca
>
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²Ñ¾?¶*uë-X¶Ëº·~Szw?Û³ÿS˲<qç®zßSËþX¶)£÷¾?¶*uë

Re: [Envolution-devel] forums

[Eric B. <apa...@xe...>]

We are currently working to get all of the important data imported back into
the site. These changes, however important they are, cannot be accomplished
overnight. They take time! TiMax's departure from the team was both sudden
and unexpected, as were the transfer of all the domains to a new server. Had
we had our choice in the matter we would have liked to have prepared the new
site and had it ready for this, but we can not change what has happened and
have to work with what we were givin. In time the site will have a new theme
along with all of the old documentation, FAQ"s, and subjects. It has been
discussed of setting up a site for all the archive material, and if this is
this is indeed possible we will take actions to do so.

As far as the forum goes Zoom has said that this is impossible to do "based
on the user tables." This does not mean that converting the data is
impossible it just means that his first approach did not work. In his last
sentence he even says that after he gets some sleep he will "finish the
job." If even the worst happens and he cannot migrate the data, the forum
postings are still there and we can create a searchable FAQ with all of the
questions that have been answered on the forums. In the meantime please cut
him some slack, Zoom has been working very hard under much pressure to get
this done. He is just one man.

I understand that this has been a setback and an inconvenience to everyone,
but we are working as hard as we can and soon we will be back on track. As
far as the developer meeting goes I understand if you cannot attend. We will
have a log of the meeting available, and there will be plenty of meetings in
the near future for you to attend. The chat room itself is available 24/7
not just for meetings, so if you want to stop by and chat you can.

I think everyone should try to be a little more open and understanding about
this whole situation. These are all large tasks that must be accomplished
and it seems you all expect them to be done already, however, this is not a
race. Taking the fastest method is not always the best, as such we will take
our time to do things right and when we are finished I think you will agree
that the choices that were made were indeed the right ones.

Thank you

Eric Barr (a.k.a. ApathyBoy)
Project Manager - Envolution

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Köhler" <s.k...@pr...>
To: <env...@li...>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 3:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Envolution-devel] forums


> This is not acceptable. Sorry.
> For the main eNvolution support site we need more then this basic 1.2.5FLS
> installation.
> The minimum should be to have all old contents (forum postings, articles,
> comments, subjects, documetations, FAQs, private messages, etc.)
> Simply everything the community have wrote here.
>
> You can't say on this list, it is impossible to install the old forum. It
> MUST be possible. And all other contents, too.
>
> It is absolutly necessary that we talk about.
> At weekend there is a chat available. Read here:
>
http://www.envolution.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=
> 4&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
>
> I'm not able to participate. Sorry. But this is the my first weekend at
home
> (after 4 weeks hospital) and I'm happy to spend the time with my family.
>
> Stefan aka WindMeUp
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Kindley" <sc...@ki...>
> To: "Evolution-Dev-List" <env...@li...>
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 9:36 AM
> Subject: [Envolution-devel] forums
>
>
> > Hello folks,
> >
> > You may have noticed I added the forums this morning. I am trying to get
> > the content from the old site merged into the new site. This will be
> > impossible to do based on the user tables.
> >
> > So.....for now Ive diabled the forums until I get some sleep to finish
> > this job.
> >
> > Zoom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including
> > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now.
> > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET.
> >
>
http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01
> > _______________________________________________
> > Envolution-devel mailing list
> > Env...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including
> Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now.
> Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET.
>
http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01
> _______________________________________________
> Envolution-devel mailing list
> Env...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel
>

Re: [Envolution-devel] forums

[<s.k...@pr...>]

This is not acceptable. Sorry.
For the main eNvolution support site we need more then this basic 1.2.5FLS
installation.
The minimum should be to have all old contents (forum postings, articles,
comments, subjects, documetations, FAQs, private messages, etc.)
Simply everything the community have wrote here.

You can't say on this list, it is impossible to install the old forum. It
MUST be possible. And all other contents, too.

It is absolutly necessary that we talk about.
At weekend there is a chat available. Read here:
http://www.envolution.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=
4&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

I'm not able to participate. Sorry. But this is the my first weekend at home
(after 4 weeks hospital) and I'm happy to spend the time with my family.

Stefan aka WindMeUp


----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kindley" <sc...@ki...>
To: "Evolution-Dev-List" <env...@li...>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 9:36 AM
Subject: [Envolution-devel] forums


> Hello folks,
>
> You may have noticed I added the forums this morning. I am trying to get
> the content from the old site merged into the new site. This will be
> impossible to do based on the user tables.
>
> So.....for now Ive diabled the forums until I get some sleep to finish
> this job.
>
> Zoom
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including
> Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now.
> Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET.
>
http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01
> _______________________________________________
> Envolution-devel mailing list
> Env...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel

[Envolution-devel] forums

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

Hello folks,

You may have noticed I added the forums this morning. I am trying to get
the content from the old site merged into the new site. This will be
impossible to do based on the user tables.

So.....for now Ive diabled the forums until I get some sleep to finish
this job.

Zoom

[Envolution-devel] A great loss

[<Luc...@cs...>]

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LCBob3cgZG8gd2UNCm9yZ2FuaXplLg0KVGhhbmtzDQpMdWNhDQo=