envolution-devel — Envolution Development List

Re: [Envolution-devel] MaxDev Project

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

OR BETTER ... YOU CAN ALSO DELETE THIS NEWS INSTEAD TO POST IT VERY HIDDEN=
 ..... 

THANKS

TiMax

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:52:54 -0500, Eric Barr wrote:
>=A0 =A0Good luck with your new project TiMax. This is however the envolution
>=A0 =A0development email list and all postings should be about the development=
 of
>=A0 =A0Envolution. In the future I would ask that all announcements that do=
 not
>=A0 =A0deal with the development of Envolution to be announced through proper
>=A0 =A0channels. I would be happy to have these kinds of postings placed in=
 the
>=A0 =A0main Envolution news so that the most amount of people can read it. If=
 you
>=A0 =A0would like I will have this article put on Envolution.com, just let me=
 know
>=A0 =A0:)
>
>=A0 =A0Thanks
>=A0 =A0Eric Barr (a.k.a. ApathyBoy)
>=A0 =A0Project Manager - Envolution
>
>=A0 =A0----- Original Message -----
>=A0 =A0From: "Maxdev" <ti...@ma...>
>=A0 =A0To: <Env...@li...>
>=A0 =A0Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 1:19 AM
>=A0 =A0Subject: [Envolution-devel] MaxDev Project
>
>
>=A0 =A0First, I would like to thank all of you have sent me emails, messages,=
 and
>=A0 =A0made calls from around the globe, and especially those from Italy. It is=
 for
>=A0 =A0this reason that I have delayed in writing this news, I'd like to=
 respond
>=A0 =A0all of your messeges but there are too many, and this is only the=
 beginning.
>=A0 =A0I'm very astonished to see how many people want to follow me in this my=
 new
>=A0 =A0project.
>
>=A0 =A0In fact, initially I thought it would be only a personal project, and=
 only
>=A0 =A0in Italian, but now many developers have decided to follow me, and=
 others
>=A0 =A0will come. Many have not worked on eNvolution and then this will be my
>=A0 =A0project, but much bigger, with the contribution of many other=
 developers,
>=A0 =A0and naturally, multilanguage.
>
>=A0 =A0Second, some have misinterpreted my statemnt "I've decided to resign as
>=A0 =A0eNvolution Project Manager" to mean that I am leaving the eNvoluion
>=A0 =A0development staff all together. This is so. First of all - I'm one of 4
>=A0 =A0eNvolution founders and for this reason, I will forever be part of the
>=A0 =A0eNvolution project. I've only resigned as Project Manager, and I've=
 given
>=A0 =A0this positions responsabilities temporarily to Zoom and then to=
 ApathyBoy,
>=A0 =A0just like the original responsibility was shared between myself and=
 Madhatt,
>=A0 =A0but sure now my concentration and time will be give to another project.
>
>=A0 =A0Working as Project Manager is a very binding and time consuming and=
 demands
>=A0 =A0a firm presence on support, development, CVS, and to managing the=
 general
>=A0 =A0organization of several developers, countless users, all of which are=
 in
>=A0 =A0multiple languages. It feel along the lines of professional work and=
 for
>=A0 =A0this reason, it must be noted that in this case it was not a routine=
 work,
>=A0 =A0but it was also a structure and organization and development work,=
 beginning
>=A0 =A0from zero.
>=A0 =A0Surely you all understand that because of the stress envolved in this
>=A0 =A0position that it is only natural to rotate rolls. This is why we have a
>=A0 =A0staff to help share the burden. You surely understand that in this=
 condition
>=A0 =A0became natural to rotate rolls, a staff exist for this too.
>=A0 =A0In short, all I am saying is that my resignation is only a normal roll
>=A0 =A0rotation, forecasted some time ago, within the eNvolution project and
>=A0 =A0development staff.
>
>
>=A0 =A0MaxDev Project
>
>
>=A0 =A0In recent news, I've written about the birthing of my new project,=
 MaxDev,
>=A0 =A0and I would like to take a moment to try to explain things a little bit
>=A0 =A0better.
>=A0 =A0To manage contents, dynamic web site, a simple CMS is not more=
 sufficient
>=A0 =A0today, users and admins have changed their necessities, they change=
 them
>=A0 =A0every time and they need to have new and more powerful tools and
>=A0 =A0integrations, for E-Commerce, Intranet, Multisites, E-Learning,=
 Workflow,
>=A0 =A0managing multimedia, modules, blocks and add-ons.
>=A0 =A0And it's obvious that all this cannot be developed only within a core.
>
>=A0 =A0Then in my MaxDev project we're working to create a site for=
 professionals
>=A0 =A0and active contributors, developers, translators, editors, promoters,
>=A0 =A0graphics and more, where it will be developed: integration of Postnuke,
>=A0 =A0eNvolution, Oscommerce and other CMS systems, like special version of=
 this
>=A0 =A0system to manage E-Commerce, E-Learning, intranet, Workflow, ERP, hotels=
 and
>=A0 =A0restaurant administration and many more.
>
>=A0 =A0Other tools can be ibryds or lite versions (perfect to be installed on
>=A0 =A0hosting with minimal features) or particular versions of these systems,=
 all
>=A0 =A0with professional development and code cleaning.
>=A0 =A0Entry in this site will be free, but binded: there will be different=
 kind of
>=A0 =A0users determined by activity and contributions that everyone can take=
 to
>=A0 =A0develop this site.
>
>=A0 =A0Then anyone can entry, read, comment, but asking for professional=
 support,
>=A0 =A0download particular kind of software or special versions will depend=
 form
>=A0 =A0contribution that anyone give to community: you could be an active user,=
 a
>=A0 =A0person who contribute developing, make graphic, translating, writing
>=A0 =A0documents, reviews, and all this will be measured from quality not=
 quantity.
>
>=A0 =A0MaxDev users and developers will have others obligations, moral too, to
>=A0 =A0respect, but many advantages: first of all, to work in a community of=
 people
>=A0 =A0who develop for professional use, in schools, Universities,=
 associations,
>=A0 =A0big and small industries, big community portals and more.
>
>=A0 =A0Then, it will be not easy... but very exciting to be present.
>
>=A0 =A0If you're interested mailing lists are operative... you can find them=
 here:
>
>=A0 =A0http://sviluppo.openenterprise.it/mailman/listinfo
>
>=A0 =A0In Italian and English.
>=A0 =A0Note that dev mailing lists (developers) aren't free, and then if=
 you're
>=A0 =A0interested to active participations write to in...@ma...
>
>=A0 =A0Now is already active our private cvs and as soon as possible we will=
 active
>=A0 =A0other resources.
>
>
>=A0 =A0TiMax
>=A0 =A0www.maxdev.com
>=A0 =A0...@ma...
>
>
>=A0 =A0-------------------------------------------------------
>=A0 =A0This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including
>=A0 =A0Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now.
>=A0 =A0Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET.
>=A0=
 =A0http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/0=
1
>=A0 =A0_______________________________________________
>=A0 =A0Envolution-devel mailing list
>=A0 =A0E...@li...
>=A0 =A0https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel
>
>
>=A0 =A0-------------------------------------------------------
>=A0 =A0This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including
>=A0 =A0Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now.
>=A0 =A0Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET.
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 =A0http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/0=
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>=A0 =A0_______________________________________________
>=A0 =A0Envolution-devel mailing list
>=A0 =A0E...@li...
>=A0 =A0https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel
>
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>
>=A0 =A0This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System.
>=A0 =A0http://www.nod32.com

Re: [Envolution-devel] i try to resume

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

On Fri, 2003-08-01 at 13:37, Maxdev wrote:

> Sure envo dev's can change roadmap, but only after a meeting and after PM have talk with other dev's .... 
> 
> Why PM don't have waited to talk about these things ?
> 

I hear all this talk about waiting.....Waiting to change things is
fine...thats what is happening...no changes have been made...as Ive said
over and over again everythign is frozen until after the meeting
tomorrow.

> What happen if in next meeting all dev's don't want to follow these steps ?  
> 

What happens if they do?

> What think all people about new PM  ? 
> 

It's not a popularity contest Max. His ability and expertise in coding
have nothing to do with popularity. Envolution needs a competant project
manager and ApathyBoy is very competant. And unlike you and me other
projects actually like him.


> What happen in in meeting no one dev's want to follow Xanthia dev ? or keep Postnuke compatiblity ?
> 

Quit spreading FUD Max. He said compatability with PostNuke and since
they use Xanthia it means compatability with Xanthia as well.
Development of Xanthia and PostNuke has nothing to do with Envolution
development.


> I don't mean is right or not contents of news, i mean that, PM pus this news without talk with all dev's, maybe i can agree all points this is the problem.
> 

Evidently Max you have a problem wth the PM. All I can say is he is the
PM so either accept it or buy a lot of aspirin.

> 4 nice to see old envo dev's to jump again here, why that ? 

Cause maybe you jumped out!

> where you are last year ? 

Do you have a problem with new people coming into Envolution?

> where you are when i ask lot of times in news, mailing list, private email  help for envolution.com site in english language ? 
> 

Shall I count the number of emails, article, and sories you asked me to
translate for you. I've always helped you Max. And if you insist on
anythign other than the tructh I can always post your emails to prove
it.

> 5 i read some news and i think someone if happy if i leave all in eNvo or if i start new fork, please don't be ipocrit and talk clear, if someone want that can tell that, np
> 
> TiMax
> 

You've already announced a fork Max....have fun with it and do what you
want. 

Zoom

Re: [Envolution-devel] MaxDev Project

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

PLEASE DON'T BE IPOCRIT ...... I HAVE POST THIS NEWS IN ENVOLUTION.COM AND=
 SOMEONE CENSURED ME AND DELETE MY NEWS ............ 

TiMax

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:52:54 -0500, Eric Barr wrote:
>=A0 =A0Good luck with your new project TiMax. This is however the envolution
>=A0 =A0development email list and all postings should be about the development=
 of
>=A0 =A0Envolution. In the future I would ask that all announcements that do=
 not
>=A0 =A0deal with the development of Envolution to be announced through proper
>=A0 =A0channels. I would be happy to have these kinds of postings placed in=
 the
>=A0 =A0main Envolution news so that the most amount of people can read it. If=
 you
>=A0 =A0would like I will have this article put on Envolution.com, just let me=
 know
>=A0 =A0:)
>
>=A0 =A0Thanks
>=A0 =A0Eric Barr (a.k.a. ApathyBoy)
>=A0 =A0Project Manager - Envolution

[Envolution-devel] THANKS VERY MUCH CENSURE MY NEWS NEW ENVOLUTION ADMINISTRATION

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

THANKS VERY MUCH TO CENSURE ME IN ENVOLUTION.COM  AND TO HAVE DELETED MY=
 NEWS ......

THANKS 

TiMax

Re: [Envolution-devel] MaxDev Project

[Eric B. <apa...@xe...>]

Good luck with your new project TiMax. This is however the envolution
development email list and all postings should be about the development of
Envolution. In the future I would ask that all announcements that do not
deal with the development of Envolution to be announced through proper
channels. I would be happy to have these kinds of postings placed in the
main Envolution news so that the most amount of people can read it. If you
would like I will have this article put on Envolution.com, just let me know
:)

Thanks
Eric Barr (a.k.a. ApathyBoy)
Project Manager - Envolution

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maxdev" <ti...@ma...>
To: <Env...@li...>
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 1:19 AM
Subject: [Envolution-devel] MaxDev Project


First, I would like to thank all of you have sent me emails, messages, and
made calls from around the globe, and especially those from Italy. It is for
this reason that I have delayed in writing this news, I'd like to respond
all of your messeges but there are too many, and this is only the beginning.
I'm very astonished to see how many people want to follow me in this my new
project.

In fact, initially I thought it would be only a personal project, and only
in Italian, but now many developers have decided to follow me, and others
will come. Many have not worked on eNvolution and then this will be my
project, but much bigger, with the contribution of many other developers,
and naturally, multilanguage.

Second, some have misinterpreted my statemnt "I've decided to resign as
eNvolution Project Manager" to mean that I am leaving the eNvoluion
development staff all together. This is so. First of all - I'm one of 4
eNvolution founders and for this reason, I will forever be part of the
eNvolution project. I've only resigned as Project Manager, and I've given
this positions responsabilities temporarily to Zoom and then to ApathyBoy,
just like the original responsibility was shared between myself and Madhatt,
but sure now my concentration and time will be give to another project.

Working as Project Manager is a very binding and time consuming and demands
a firm presence on support, development, CVS, and to managing the general
organization of several developers, countless users, all of which are in
multiple languages. It feel along the lines of professional work and for
this reason, it must be noted that in this case it was not a routine work,
but it was also a structure and organization and development work, beginning
from zero.
Surely you all understand that because of the stress envolved in this
position that it is only natural to rotate rolls. This is why we have a
staff to help share the burden. You surely understand that in this condition
became natural to rotate rolls, a staff exist for this too.
In short, all I am saying is that my resignation is only a normal roll
rotation, forecasted some time ago, within the eNvolution project and
development staff.


MaxDev Project


In recent news, I've written about the birthing of my new project, MaxDev,
and I would like to take a moment to try to explain things a little bit
better.
To manage contents, dynamic web site, a simple CMS is not more sufficient
today, users and admins have changed their necessities, they change them
every time and they need to have new and more powerful tools and
integrations, for E-Commerce, Intranet, Multisites, E-Learning, Workflow,
managing multimedia, modules, blocks and add-ons.
And it's obvious that all this cannot be developed only within a core.

Then in my MaxDev project we're working to create a site for professionals
and active contributors, developers, translators, editors, promoters,
graphics and more, where it will be developed: integration of Postnuke,
eNvolution, Oscommerce and other CMS systems, like special version of this
system to manage E-Commerce, E-Learning, intranet, Workflow, ERP, hotels and
restaurant administration and many more.

Other tools can be ibryds or lite versions (perfect to be installed on
hosting with minimal features) or particular versions of these systems, all
with professional development and code cleaning.
Entry in this site will be free, but binded: there will be different kind of
users determined by activity and contributions that everyone can take to
develop this site.

Then anyone can entry, read, comment, but asking for professional support,
download particular kind of software or special versions will depend form
contribution that anyone give to community: you could be an active user, a
person who contribute developing, make graphic, translating, writing
documents, reviews, and all this will be measured from quality not quantity.

MaxDev users and developers will have others obligations, moral too, to
respect, but many advantages: first of all, to work in a community of people
who develop for professional use, in schools, Universities, associations,
big and small industries, big community portals and more.

Then, it will be not easy... but very exciting to be present.

If you're interested mailing lists are operative... you can find them here:

http://sviluppo.openenterprise.it/mailman/listinfo

In Italian and English.
Note that dev mailing lists (developers) aren't free, and then if you're
interested to active participations write to in...@ma...

Now is already active our private cvs and as soon as possible we will active
other resources.


TiMax
www.maxdev.com
ti...@ma...




-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including
Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now.
Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET.
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_______________________________________________
Envolution-devel mailing list
Env...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel

[Envolution-devel] i try to resume

[Maxdev <ti...@ma...>]

Ok i m tired  now and i try to resume in short mail the problems

1 i never ask to move all data very fast, i only ask to inform me who want=
 to continue very fast, in my mind all transfer take 7-10 days minimum

2 Zoom tell me he want to continue bla bla bla, i give he all administration=
 site, ftp, mysql,  sourgeforge, domain name  etc .....  so from 27-28 june=
 i don't have any control 

3 The problem is contents of news so i resume very easy, how can new PM put=
 a news and talk about release 1.26 - 1.27 - 1.28 - 1.29 etc ..... 
when eNvolution staff have decided from over one month before to stop=
 1.25FLS and start with 1.3 ??

Sure envo dev's can change roadmap, but only after a meeting and after PM=
 have talk with other dev's .... 

Why PM don't have waited to talk about these things ?

What happen if in next meeting all dev's don't want to follow these steps ? =
 

What think all people about new PM  ? 

he write in one news ..... we make these steps bla bla bla ....... and after=
 meeting ...... PM rewrite another news to tell " sorry people my mistake,=
 we don't follow these steps "

I little ridiculus also .....

What happen in in meeting no one dev's want to follow Xanthia dev ? or keep=
 Postnuke compatiblity ?

I don't mean is right or not contents of news, i mean that, PM pus this news=
 without talk with all dev's, maybe i can agree all points this is the=
 problem.

4 nice to see old envo dev's to jump again here, why that ? 
where you are last year ? 
where you are when i ask lot of times in news, mailing list, private email =
 help for envolution.com site in english language ? 

5 i read some news and i think someone if happy if i leave all in eNvo or if=
 i start new fork, please don't be ipocrit and talk clear, if someone want=
 that can tell that, np

TiMax

RE: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[Andrei K. <ak...@ho...>]

Hi there capretta,

My nick used to be ak, but somehow it got deleted from envo site. When I
tried to reregister I was told that my nick was too short, go figure :).
Anyway, it is akevolution now. As for who I am, well, I am one of those
guys that left. For the record, I have never held an official position
on the core envo team, nor I am looking for one. As for my credentials,
I helped webmedic to get envo1.0 out. Somehow, I don't remember you
helping out. If I am wrong, correct me, no problem with that. That was a
hectic time, as it is now. But as you said, time passes and things are
not the same anymore. I am not aware of any of your accomplishments, but
that is probably because I don't use current Envolution version. As for
staff positions, I am not aware of ANYONE who would try to take anything
from current staff members.
We all have our personal agendas here, including you. If it were not
true, there would not be any flame wars here. As for " The Fabolous Four
", let's not forget that TiMax is one of them. He took PM position with
understanding that he will lead the development according to that
roadmap. If he did not agree to it, he would not take that job. Simple
as that. But, somewhere along the way, things changed. How they changed,
I can't say, I was not there. But, and this is my personal opinion,
TiMax did not like the outcome of that change, which resulted in his
resignation. The rest we all know.

This is not intended as a flame back, but somehow I feel it will be
taken that way.
Anyway, as you pointed out, you don't know me and I don't know you. So,
not a big deal.

Best Regards,

ak   

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

On Fri, 2003-08-01 at 11:45, gagl wrote:
> ciao to all: 
> I read again eNvolution original Vision and roadmap: I found only at
> the beginning "The Vision is to create the ultimate Content Management
> System. This new CMS is called Envolution, and will initially be based
> on the Postnuke 0.7x code base. " the word Postnuke and no referrers
> on working to get get eNvo Postnuke-compatible. The different
> directory structure is stated in envo vision of the founders.... since
> 2002 many other function have been developed without beeing in the
> original roadmap of The Fabolous Four... many developers has added the
> project... many tasks and positions has been given to staff
> people...many new projects are planned....

What part of nothing has changed do you not understand. It was an idea
that was published about his perspective on the roadmap and as the new
PM he certainly is within his rights to do just that. No changes will
occur until after the meeting. Everything is currently frozen until
then.

> I don't know who is this Kivilev, but every day there appear new
> staff, new people never heard before, who say to the Lead Developer:

So are you saying you have a problem with new people joining or
rejoining Envolution?

>  ". Now, there are only four people that can change the roadmap. If
> they decide to do so, the community is free to choose whether to
> accept new vision or find another vision (project). " THAT'S
> DEMOCRATIC.... 
> I think I begun to understand what's going on here, and stephan is
> right: some people returned to eNvolyution and now want to change
> everything, 

Show me one post where Max, Brandon, Brian, or I have said "we want to
change everything".

> intimating:"!We  are the founders! If you want to stay , you have to
> do what I say, else go". NOW I UNDERSTAND IT CLEAR. THANKS, NIKILEV OR
> WHO YOU ARE.

So now your gonna attack someone because they don't agree with you huh?
Someone you admit you don't even know.

> I propsed myself for Doc Management for eNvo, I worked very fine with
> Max, Stephan, all the other new non-founders, but things changed....

Yeah things did change. Max changed it when he resigned. So if you have
a problem about the changes ask Max how many times I tried to get him to
reconsider. Ask Max how many times other people tried to get him to
reconsider.

>  
> A tip for all newbies in staff: someone maybe want the power, the
> command here, not comunication and respect for people that this new
> "management" doesn't know.

Hey Capretta. You keep slinging personal insults and making false
accusations. Make sure the bridges you keep burning don't ruin
relationships in the process. Cause frankly thats whats happening.

> Stephan hasn't resigned and is still Lead Developer: a little bit of
> respect, please.
> capretta

Respect works both ways Capreatta. You should probably follow some of
your own advice here.

When you folks are done trying to run people away from Envolution let me
know so we can move forward and progress.

Zoom

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[gagl <ca...@fr...>]

ciao to all:=20
I read again eNvolution original Vision and roadmap: I found only at the =
beginning "The Vision is to create the ultimate Content Management =
System. This new CMS is called Envolution, and will initially be based =
on the Postnuke 0.7x code base. " the word Postnuke and no referrers on =
working to get get eNvo Postnuke-compatible. The different directory =
structure is stated in envo vision of the founders.... since 2002 many =
other function have been developed without beeing in the original =
roadmap of The Fabolous Four... many developers has added the project... =
many tasks and positions has been given to staff people...many new =
projects are planned....
I don't know who is this Kivilev, but every day there appear new staff, =
new people never heard before, who say to the Lead Developer: ". Now, =
there are only four people that can change the roadmap. If they decide =
to do so, the community is free to choose whether to accept new vision =
or find another vision (project). " THAT'S DEMOCRATIC....=20
I think I begun to understand what's going on here, and stephan is =
right: some people returned to eNvolyution and now want to change =
everything, intimating:"!We  are the founders! If you want to stay , you =
have to do what I say, else go". NOW I UNDERSTAND IT CLEAR. THANKS, =
NIKILEV OR WHO YOU ARE.
I propsed myself for Doc Management for eNvo, I worked very fine with =
Max, Stephan, all the other new non-founders, but things changed....=20
A tip for all newbies in staff: someone maybe want the power, the =
command here, not comunication and respect for people that this new =
"management" doesn't know.
Stephan hasn't resigned and is still Lead Developer: a little bit of =
respect, please.
capretta

[Envolution-devel] Enough!

[Furbo <fu...@si...>]

Ok now enough is enough..  This list is a Development list.. not a
lets 'cry over spilled milk list' (bitching about things that
happened)  I am not going to flame here.. not really even going to
give opinion of current events.. Only pointing out facts and trying
to move this thing along.


NOW SCROLL DOWN AND CALMLY READ....























Are you calm yet?    its a long email







          Think happy thoughts







          






Communication:
YES  their is a communication issue and it seems to have caused SOME
of the current issues.. Their will always be communication issues in a
multi-national (and multi-language) community. Does everyone know ALL
the languages fluently? NO   so if people were to communicate in
Russian, english, or Italian as the common language things will be misunderstood
too..   english seems to be the 'universial' business language (and
coding to an extent) so its seems fair that it is used here.. How do
the Russian and French developers talk to each other?  someone has to
know 2 lanugages at least!  and from my experience people know some
level of english.   Everyone understands that some people are not
perfect english speakers thats OK!  if you dont understand something
just ask (that goes for english and non-english people).   So the
bitching over the 'bad english' comments are not an issue. ALL
langages should be welcomed and encouraged... with a little help.

ProjectManager:
Timax stepped down.. Quit with the timax references in comments. IF
everyone loved timax soo much as PM then why did not people FIGHT to
defend him and keep him as PM?  part of the reason he left was
bitching about him.  Where was the community to come to his aid and
back him up?  To defend his actions? He stepped down bc he needed a
break and could not take some of the things going on.. so Obviously the Project Manager is not
an easy job.. give it some time.  Timax did a fine job and he has
decided to not be PM. ok.. so now lets give the new guy some TIME to
see how things go.  All that Eric has said are words.. he has not
delete CVS, not destroyed anything or removed past work.. only stated
his vision.. and he can do that i think.

Authority:
What does a Project Manager do?  Manage, oversee, FOCUS a project
 and YES, MAKE DECISIONS!  the point of having a structured
 development team including a project manager is to make certain
 decisions WITH OUT getting a vote on every little thing.  Nothing
 would get done if authority is not given to certain members to make
 decisions for the betterment of the community.  IF something was once
 done that violates a policy the PM has authority to change it
 back..period. No permission is needed, that's part of what a PM does.
 Think about your 'real world' jobs, does your boss get your
 permission over everything.. or in enforcing a corporate policy?
 
 A project manager takes an established plan and enforces it, makes
 sure things are done on schedule.   So IF Eric is enforcing an
 established RoadMap that was never changed why should he not be able
 to put things back on course?  As far as i can see he should be.

 do i agree with the roadmap and the vision?  IM NOT GIVING MY OPINION
 HERE

Fork:
All too often people dont like what someone or a group of people do
with a project.  For GPL projects they can leave and start their own.
PostNuke did this, Envolution did this from PN, etc..  IF people do
not like how envolution is going, GIVE IT SOME TIME, but then by all
means fork.. Hell some of us may go with you.

Community:
Noone is complaining about any group of people!  Some things may be
misunderstood but noting is being said to complain about the italian,
french, russian, american, whatever community..   No one means to bash any group.
Let it end.. were adults and can get along.

Is this a democracy? NO  as much as the Public Relations for
envolution try to say it is, it is NOT. if it was a true democracy then
no one would get any more decision making authority that anyone else..
No one, not a PM, not a Founder, no one.. that can never work for
Developemnt.. Their is a structure of authority and while a lot of
decisions are community or semi-democratic onces not everything is.
Its not fair but thats life.

Do i agree with all the current decisions.. IM NOT SAYING!

Im not trying to give my opinion (i know i did a little) because its
not needed for me to clarify things about what is going on.  I am not
complaining about anyone, not english, not italians, not americans,
not community, no one.  Let people do their jobs.
 

If you want to flame me back, by all means do so.. but be prepared for
me to not hold ANYthing back.  Im not a founder, im not a PM i dont
have to be polite or kind to things i dont like.  I Hate flame wars so
please lets end it.  Do not point by point go through my email stating
that something was never said.. Im not accusing people of saying
something, only trying to get things to move on and i mention
misunderstood statements from the list.

Thank you

-- 
Furbo

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
  -Pablo Picasso

[Envolution-devel] The future of eNvo

[Sjahrazad A. <sja...@ba...>]

I never like to involve in os politics, like or dislike :)

So I wrote a short article just to express from the neutral personal view. I 
see a cycling, repeated problems around individual ego since PHP Nuke, PN 
and eNvo.

You can read it and please be free to give comments about this thought at: 
http://uiarch.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=20

Best regards,
sjah

RE: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[Andrei K. <ak...@ho...>]

Hi Stefan,

In 2002 four people got together and forked PostNuke and created project
we call Envolution. Founders summarized their vision into a roadmap you
are referring to. Remember, this is not your vision (with all due
respect), not Eric's vision, and not my vision. We may agree or disagree
with it, full freedom of choice. Also, until new vision is developed and
presented to the community, the old one stands, whether you like it or
not. Now, if you disagree with Envolution vision, you are free to do the
same thing four Envolution founders did in 2002, namely fork. Now, there
are only four people that can change the roadmap. If they decide to do
so, the community is free to choose whether to accept new vision or find
another vision (project). Again, full freedom of choice. From your
comments, it appears to me that you are not sure how all the hard work
you did will be viewed by new Project Manager. Well, if that work does
not conflict with the roadmap, there is absolutely nothing to worry
about! If your work goes beyond the roadmap WITHOUT conflicting with it,
then there is nothing to worry about again! From Eric's comments it is
clear that all he would like to do is follow the roadmap. No more, no
less.

Best Regards

ak

Rif: Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[<Luc...@cs...>]

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Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[<s.k...@pr...>]

Hi Eric,
and now we are back to the beginning of our discussion from monday (or
sunday, I don't know).
[...]
> The decision to follow the original roadmap is a decision I am sticking by
> and will not change unless a better solution is provided during one of the
> meetings. This roadmap and vision has been on the envolution website from
> day one until now and as far as I am aware it has never been changed. I do
> not understand why you are having such a big problem with this. This was
the
> outline agreed upon by the entire community when the Envolution project
> began, not something I made up by myself.
[...]
You can't take the old roadmap and plans from year 2002. It is definetly out
of date.
But this seems to me, that this would be your basis to start this project
new, in this strictly way without talking with the new staff you don't know.
And remember: The new people who entered eNvolution after you take a rest,
do not know you also.
Ok. We have a meeting at this weekend now.
But you publish an article with all these things BEFORE we all get the
possibility to react.
Thus you also do not need to be surprised at all the comments.

And now you start same thing again. Why?
And don't talk about:
"I'm nevertheless Co-Founder !" "I'm nevertheless Project-Manager !" "I can
do that !"

We are a open community and everybody who use eNvolution for his needs is
part of it.

Ok. It would be better been to delete the old roadmap. But we had other
things to do, with a higher priority. And as you can see, that eNvo 1.2.5
FLS has nothing to do with the system eNvo 1.0 where you are Co-Founder of.

So let it be to post such mails again on this list.

Scott and you talk about here and elsewhere we have to wait and meet us all
together in chat at weekend.
Why does not make it yourself also in such a way?

[...]
> Also, I have never said anything about throwing away all the work you and
> the development team of the last 6+ months. We will be keeping all of the
> new features that everyone has worked very hard on during that time. I do
> not understand where you got this idea from.
[...]
You can't take the old roadmap and rollback the eNvo-project to defined
starting point to bring up the ship onto the course of this roadmap without
throwing away some parts we have done last 6 months.
This again-speaks itself.

And again: More productive would be to wait for the discussions on chat and
the results of it.


Good luck,
Stefan aka WindMeUp

[Envolution-devel] Re: Ap please re-think a litle

[putino <pu...@pu...>]

Hi all, 

I'm a member of eNvolution Italian Community and I can confirm TiMax and his 
worries about eNvolution. Since he has resigned I've heard so many people to 
be worried about future of eNvolution that I cannot count them now. Many 
people have noticed the same as TiMax, a sort of bad behaviour of "new 
staff" against Italian Community and TiMax himself. In particular this 
became from some things are happened in these days, for example the title 
"Are you ready for a change ?" or the new roadmap that has been drafted 
without any discussion since now with the team and the staff and only after 
you've drafted it you have spoken about a meeting: it's not fair this for me 
and for many many other people. Remember please that not so many people in 
Italian Community know well English and expecially many cannot write in 
English, than I can confirm TiMax about this problem, and i can add that 
many Italian people have spoken with me and tell me the same things as TiMax 
have written you. I want to say too that it's very important for the future 
of eNvolution that you will win confidence of the Community, and remember 
please that one of most important part of this Community is Italian one and 
that here we have much confidence in TiMax, and not only here. All Open 
Source project and project in general cannot exist without their 
Communities, and it's also your responsability to have their confidence, I 
suppose :) And I suppose also that some behaviours can be interpreted as 
hostile and can be less confidence in this project. I hope that this will 
not happen, it depends from you, and from all Community and I think that 
this will be a matter of discussion in the 2nd August meeting. 

Bye all, 

.::. putino .::. pu...@pu...
http://www.putino.it 

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[Eric B. <apa...@xe...>]

It is late and I have just recently got home from a long day so I want to
make this quick. I will post comments to your other questions tomorrow when
i have had time to think on them.

As project manager it is my job to give some stability to this project? If
this is not my duty then what am I suppose to be doing as a project manager?
The decision to follow the original roadmap is a decision I am sticking by
and will not change unless a better solution is provided during one of the
meetings. This roadmap and vision has been on the envolution website from
day one until now and as far as I am aware it has never been changed. I do
not understand why you are having such a big problem with this. This was the
outline agreed upon by the entire community when the Envolution project
began, not something I made up by myself.

Also, I have never said anything about throwing away all the work you and
the development team of the last 6+ months. We will be keeping all of the
new features that everyone has worked very hard on during that time. I do
not understand where you got this idea from. The changes that I outlined
only talked about making everything work the best that it can. As far as me
offending you personally TiMax, I do not think I have done or said anything
that should do that. I complimented you on your hard work and said that it
will be missed. This was meant as a good thing. I did say that you didn't
give us much notice, but this is true. I'm sorry if that makes you look bad,
but I can't really help that. I understand your reasons and don't personally
hold any grudge for it. If you have any questions about my decisions you can
contact me personally. My door is always open, so please use it :)

ApathyBoy

----- Original Message -----
From: "TiMax" <ma...@em...>
To: <env...@li...>
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle


On 31 Jul 2003 23:31:01 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
> On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 22:42, TiMax wrote:
> > On 31 Jul 2003 22:20:34 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
> > > Just this moment people ask me why TiMax is complaining after he
> > > resigned and a new PM took over.
> > >
> > > Zoom
> >
> > Because i m co-founder and member of Staff, but tell me ...... maybe i
disturb you ?
> >
> > do you want to leave all or do you want i close my mouth ??
> >
> > I have no problem ..... just le me know :) and i can take my decisions
> >
> > TiMax
> >
>
> You can say whatever you feel like saying Max. I am very disappointed
> that you would start critisizing before anything could even get started.
>
> Damn it's only been 5 days since you announced your resignation and
> already shit hits the fan before we can even get a reorganization
> meeting started.
>
> A little patience could have been given extended considering the short
> notice and all.
>
> Zoom

Yes but damm after 1 day we have changed PM all people can read one news
with important contents and nobody in staff or in support sites know nothing
about it.

Are you seriusly Scott ?

All is great, one news from AP new PM talk in general ..welcome bla bla bla
... i m happy bla bla bla .... i try to make my best bla bla bla .... but
not  a news with already roadmap and some specifications without have talked
with nobody.,.

The problem for me but also for other is the content of news ......

and it is only a open discussion ...........

TiMax



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[Envolution-devel] MaxDev Project

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

First, I would like to thank all of you have sent me emails, messages, and=
 made calls from around the globe, and especially those from Italy. It is=
 for this reason that I have delayed in writing this news, I'd like to=
 respond all of your messeges but there are too many, and this is only the=
 beginning. I'm very astonished to see how many people want to follow me in=
 this my new project. 

In fact, initially I thought it would be only a personal project, and only=
 in Italian, but now many developers have decided to follow me, and others=
 will come. Many have not worked on eNvolution and then this will be my=
 project, but much bigger, with the contribution of many other developers,=
 and naturally, multilanguage.

Second, some have misinterpreted my statemnt "I've decided to resign as=
 eNvolution Project Manager" to mean that I am leaving the eNvoluion=
 development staff all together. This is so. First of all - I'm one of 4=
 eNvolution founders and for this reason, I will forever be part of the=
 eNvolution project. I've only resigned as Project Manager, and I've given=
 this positions responsabilities temporarily to Zoom and then to ApathyBoy,=
 just like the original responsibility was shared between myself and=
 Madhatt, but sure now my concentration and time will be give to another=
 project.

Working as Project Manager is a very binding and time consuming and demands=
 a firm presence on support, development, CVS, and to managing the general=
 organization of several developers, countless users, all of which are in=
 multiple languages. It feel along the lines of professional work and for=
 this reason, it must be noted that in this case it was not a routine work,=
 but it was also a structure and organization and development work,=
 beginning from zero.
Surely you all understand that because of the stress envolved in this=
 position that it is only natural to rotate rolls. This is why we have a=
 staff to help share the burden. You surely understand that in this=
 condition became natural to rotate rolls, a staff exist for this too.
In short, all I am saying is that my resignation is only a normal roll=
 rotation, forecasted some time ago, within the eNvolution project and=
 development staff.


MaxDev Project


In recent news, I've written about the birthing of my new project, MaxDev,=
 and I would like to take a moment to try to explain things a little bit=
 better.
To manage contents, dynamic web site, a simple CMS is not more sufficient=
 today, users and admins have changed their necessities, they change them=
 every time and they need to have new and more powerful tools and=
 integrations, for E-Commerce, Intranet, Multisites, E-Learning, Workflow,=
 managing multimedia, modules, blocks and add-ons. 
And it's obvious that all this cannot be developed only within a core.

Then in my MaxDev project we're working to create a site for professionals=
 and active contributors, developers, translators, editors, promoters,=
 graphics and more, where it will be developed: integration of Postnuke,=
 eNvolution, Oscommerce and other CMS systems, like special version of this=
 system to manage E-Commerce, E-Learning, intranet, Workflow, ERP, hotels=
 and restaurant administration and many more.
 
Other tools can be ibryds or lite versions (perfect to be installed on=
 hosting with minimal features) or particular versions of these systems, all=
 with professional development and code cleaning.
Entry in this site will be free, but binded: there will be different kind of=
 users determined by activity and contributions that everyone can take to=
 develop this site.

Then anyone can entry, read, comment, but asking for professional support,=
 download particular kind of software or special versions will depend form=
 contribution that anyone give to community: you could be an active user, a=
 person who contribute developing, make graphic, translating, writing=
 documents, reviews, and all this will be measured from quality not=
 quantity.

MaxDev users and developers will have others obligations, moral too, to=
 respect, but many advantages: first of all, to work in a community of=
 people who develop for professional use, in schools, Universities,=
 associations, big and small industries, big community portals and more.

Then, it will be not easy... but very exciting to be present.

If you're interested mailing lists are operative... you can find them here:

http://sviluppo.openenterprise.it/mailman/listinfo 

In Italian and English. 
Note that dev mailing lists (developers) aren't free, and then if you're=
 interested to active participations write to in...@ma... 

Now is already active our private cvs and as soon as possible we will active=
 other resources.


TiMax
www.maxdev.com 
ti...@ma... 
 

[Envolution-devel] MaxDev Project

[Maxdev <ti...@ma...>]

First, I would like to thank all of you have sent me emails, messages, and=
 made calls from around the globe, and especially those from Italy. It is=
 for this reason that I have delayed in writing this news, I'd like to=
 respond all of your messeges but there are too many, and this is only the=
 beginning. I'm very astonished to see how many people want to follow me in=
 this my new project. 

In fact, initially I thought it would be only a personal project, and only=
 in Italian, but now many developers have decided to follow me, and others=
 will come. Many have not worked on eNvolution and then this will be my=
 project, but much bigger, with the contribution of many other developers,=
 and naturally, multilanguage.

Second, some have misinterpreted my statemnt "I've decided to resign as=
 eNvolution Project Manager" to mean that I am leaving the eNvoluion=
 development staff all together. This is so. First of all - I'm one of 4=
 eNvolution founders and for this reason, I will forever be part of the=
 eNvolution project. I've only resigned as Project Manager, and I've given=
 this positions responsabilities temporarily to Zoom and then to ApathyBoy,=
 just like the original responsibility was shared between myself and=
 Madhatt, but sure now my concentration and time will be give to another=
 project.

Working as Project Manager is a very binding and time consuming and demands=
 a firm presence on support, development, CVS, and to managing the general=
 organization of several developers, countless users, all of which are in=
 multiple languages. It feel along the lines of professional work and for=
 this reason, it must be noted that in this case it was not a routine work,=
 but it was also a structure and organization and development work,=
 beginning from zero.
Surely you all understand that because of the stress envolved in this=
 position that it is only natural to rotate rolls. This is why we have a=
 staff to help share the burden. You surely understand that in this=
 condition became natural to rotate rolls, a staff exist for this too.
In short, all I am saying is that my resignation is only a normal roll=
 rotation, forecasted some time ago, within the eNvolution project and=
 development staff.


MaxDev Project


In recent news, I've written about the birthing of my new project, MaxDev,=
 and I would like to take a moment to try to explain things a little bit=
 better.
To manage contents, dynamic web site, a simple CMS is not more sufficient=
 today, users and admins have changed their necessities, they change them=
 every time and they need to have new and more powerful tools and=
 integrations, for E-Commerce, Intranet, Multisites, E-Learning, Workflow,=
 managing multimedia, modules, blocks and add-ons. 
And it's obvious that all this cannot be developed only within a core.

Then in my MaxDev project we're working to create a site for professionals=
 and active contributors, developers, translators, editors, promoters,=
 graphics and more, where it will be developed: integration of Postnuke,=
 eNvolution, Oscommerce and other CMS systems, like special version of this=
 system to manage E-Commerce, E-Learning, intranet, Workflow, ERP, hotels=
 and restaurant administration and many more.
 
Other tools can be ibryds or lite versions (perfect to be installed on=
 hosting with minimal features) or particular versions of these systems, all=
 with professional development and code cleaning.
Entry in this site will be free, but binded: there will be different kind of=
 users determined by activity and contributions that everyone can take to=
 develop this site.

Then anyone can entry, read, comment, but asking for professional support,=
 download particular kind of software or special versions will depend form=
 contribution that anyone give to community: you could be an active user, a=
 person who contribute developing, make graphic, translating, writing=
 documents, reviews, and all this will be measured from quality not=
 quantity.

MaxDev users and developers will have others obligations, moral too, to=
 respect, but many advantages: first of all, to work in a community of=
 people who develop for professional use, in schools, Universities,=
 associations, big and small industries, big community portals and more.

Then, it will be not easy... but very exciting to be present.

If you're interested mailing lists are operative... you can find them here:

http://sviluppo.openenterprise.it/mailman/listinfo 

In Italian and English. 
Note that dev mailing lists (developers) aren't free, and then if you're=
 interested to active participations write to in...@ma... 

Now is already active our private cvs and as soon as possible we will active=
 other resources.


TiMax
www.maxdev.com 
ti...@ma... 
 

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

On 31 Jul 2003 23:31:01 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
>=A0 =A0On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 22:42, TiMax wrote:
>=A0 =A0>=A0On 31 Jul 2003 22:20:34 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
>=A0 =A0>=A0>=A0 =A0Just this moment people ask me why TiMax is complaining after he
>=A0 =A0>=A0>=A0 =A0resigned and a new PM took over.
>=A0 =A0>=A0>
>=A0 =A0>=A0>=A0 =A0Zoom
>=A0 =A0>
>=A0 =A0>=A0Because i m co-founder and member of Staff, but tell me ...... maybe i=
 disturb you ?
>=A0 =A0>
>=A0 =A0>=A0do you want to leave all or do you want i close my mouth ??
>=A0 =A0>
>=A0 =A0>=A0I have no problem ..... just le me know :) and i can take my=
 decisions
>=A0 =A0>
>=A0 =A0>=A0TiMax
>=A0 =A0>
>
>=A0 =A0You can say whatever you feel like saying Max. I am very disappointed
>=A0 =A0that you would start critisizing before anything could even get=
 started.
>
>=A0 =A0Damn it's only been 5 days since you announced your resignation and
>=A0 =A0already shit hits the fan before we can even get a reorganization
>=A0 =A0meeting started.
>
>=A0 =A0A little patience could have been given extended considering the short
>=A0 =A0notice and all.
>
>=A0 =A0Zoom

Yes but damm after 1 day we have changed PM all people can read one news=
 with important contents and nobody in staff or in support sites know=
 nothing about it.

Are you seriusly Scott ?

All is great, one news from AP new PM talk in general ..welcome bla bla bla=
 ... i m happy bla bla bla .... i try to make my best bla bla bla .... but=
 not  a news with already roadmap and some specifications without have=
 talked with nobody.,.

The problem for me but also for other is the content of news ...... 

and it is only a open discussion ........... 

TiMax 

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

On 31 Jul 2003 23:26:24 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
>=A0 =A0On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 22:39, TiMax wrote:
>
>=A0 =A0>=A0Hey .... I NEVER TELL YOU TO MAKE IT QUICKLY ... =A0i tell you take your=
 time .....
>
>=A0 =A0<quote>
>=A0 =A0I give you one week if someone want to continue my work and found
>=A0 =A0another servers to host eNvolution project and related
>=A0 =A0site, now i use 4 servers + sourgeforge server + Stefan server to make=
 a
>=A0 =A0backup.
>=A0 =A0When someone are ready i can send it all backups and bla bla bla.

Here i mean one week to inform or contact me, and you have contacted me=
 after one hour, 

I don't have write " if nobody contact me in one week i put offline all=
 servers "

Re: [Envolution-devel] A great loss

[Sjahrazad A. <sja...@ba...>]

On 31 Jul 2003 13:14:26 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote
> [...]
> The reregister idea was to give people some outlet to ccommunicate
> opther than this list. I recieved emails stating it would be better 
> to put up a bare site instead of leaving up a blank HTML page. So thats
> what I did.
> 
> Once I finish the restoration I hope people will calm down and not 
> be so impatient. You would think this was a life or death situation 
> from some of the emails I received.
> [...]

Ok, I understood. The content is already up again, great! If you need help 
to install the new theme just let me know.

sjah

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 22:48, TiMax wrote:

> And remember with my cheap and very poor english but i talk not only for me but also for all people unable to write 
> english .......
> 
> Max
> 

We are like brothers Max. I understand you fine and you understand me
fine as well.

Lets take a little break and chat Saturday morning in the meeting
please.

As always everyone is invited and encouraged to attend. Translators are
welcomed and needed so those that don't speak english can speak up for
themsleves.

Zoom

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 22:42, TiMax wrote:
> On 31 Jul 2003 22:20:34 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
> >   Just this moment people ask me why TiMax is complaining after he
> >   resigned and a new PM took over.
> >
> >   Zoom
> 
> Because i m co-founder and member of Staff, but tell me ...... maybe i disturb you ? 
> 
> do you want to leave all or do you want i close my mouth ??
> 
> I have no problem ..... just le me know :) and i can take my decisions
> 
> TiMax 
> 

You can say whatever you feel like saying Max. I am very disappointed
that you would start critisizing before anything could even get started.

Damn it's only been 5 days since you announced your resignation and
already shit hits the fan before we can even get a reorganization
meeting started.

A little patience could have been given extended considering the short
notice and all.

Zoom

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[Scott K. <sc...@ki...>]

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 22:39, TiMax wrote:

> Hey .... I NEVER TELL YOU TO MAKE IT QUICKLY ...  i tell you take your time ..... 

<quote>
I give you one week if someone want to continue my work and found
another servers to host eNvolution project and related 
site, now i use 4 servers + sourgeforge server + Stefan server to make a
backup. 
When someone are ready i can send it all backups and bla bla bla.

Bye 


TiMax 
<end quote>


That quote was from Saturday July 26 on this list in your resignation
announcement. 

You said, "I give you one week...."

That is a pretty short time to do everything that needed to be done
isn't it?

Zoom

Re: [Envolution-devel] Ap please re-think a litle

[TiMax <ma...@em...>]

On 31 Jul 2003 22:20:34 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote:
>   > I know Zoom you make very good job and with passion, also if you use=
 linux but stop please to say that i give you 
only 7
>   > days, i already tell you  take your time all data still in my server=
 and i don't have problem
>   > 
>
>   You said you wanted it handled quickly. After I tried to ralk you out=
 of
>   it over three of those days you insisted you we quitting. So I took you
>   at your word and did exaclty as you asked and now your bitching to me
>   about it? Thats really unfair.

Hey .... I NEVER TELL YOU TO MAKE IT QUICKLY ...  i tell you take your time=
 ..... 

otherwise why i tell you to transfert only some domains in first step and=
 other in another step bla bla bla ?

Is logic you can't make it in 1 day

for me is not a problem ..... data are always in server 

Max