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From: Eric B. <eri...@sb...> - 2003-08-03 18:14:18
|
Hello everyone, This is a roll call for all the current Staff Members (all of those people who held staff positions before TiMax stepped down last week). I would like for all of you to keep your positions here at Envolution but I need to compile a list of everybody and what their positions are so that we can give admin rights back to those who wish to remain and hold positions. So if you could just reply to this with your name, contact information and the position you hold I would appreciate it. After I have everybody we'll figure out if there are any positions that need filling, and I will also be getting in contact with each of you individually. I also ask that you reply to this in the next 3 days so that we can all get back to work as soon as possible! Thanks for your time and effort! Eric Barr (a.k.a. ApathyBoy) Project Manager - Envolution |
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From: Eric B. <eri...@sb...> - 2003-08-03 17:53:19
|
Here is the log from our meeting yesterday, it is completely unaltered so expect lots of offtopic chatter, lol. Eric Barr (a.k.a. ApathyBoy) Project Manager - Envolution ****************************************************** [August 02, 2003 :: 09:25 AM] <putino_away> hi all [August 02, 2003 :: 09:25 AM] *** putino_away is now known as putino [August 02, 2003 :: 09:26 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello [August 02, 2003 :: 09:26 AM] <Zoom> morning [August 02, 2003 :: 09:26 AM] <putino> hi ApathyBoy [August 02, 2003 :: 09:27 AM] <putino> morning ? here in Italy are almost 17pm... [August 02, 2003 :: 09:27 AM] <putino> ehe [August 02, 2003 :: 09:28 AM] <Zoom> lol [August 02, 2003 :: 09:28 AM] <ApathyBoy> it is almost 10am here :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:28 AM] <ApathyBoy> hehe [August 02, 2003 :: 09:29 AM] <putino> On the East Coast ? [August 02, 2003 :: 09:29 AM] <ApathyBoy> yes [August 02, 2003 :: 09:29 AM] <putino> :) I suppose when I'll be degreed, I'll came there to work... I'm an American citizen too :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <putino> but... was there a meeting now ? [August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <putino> ehm here not there :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <ApathyBoy> there will be a meeting very soon in here :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <putino> ok [August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <putino> i wait [August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <Zoom> about 30 minutes until meeting starts [August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] *** sjah (~sjahrazad@61.5.8.125) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello sjah :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <sjah> hi :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <Zoom> morninf sjah [August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <ApathyBoy> glad you could make it [August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <Zoom> morning even [August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <putino> hello sjah, I've read your news [August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <sjah> morning, here is evening :( [August 02, 2003 :: 09:33 AM] <sjah> hi putino, my news is to make everbody calm down [August 02, 2003 :: 09:34 AM] <putino> i suppose all want this, but it's not easy [August 02, 2003 :: 09:34 AM] <sjah> yes sure, but thats our challenge, want to solve it or just same like the old story :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:34 AM] <ApathyBoy> there is a saying here in america, nothing worth having is easy :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:35 AM] <putino> lol [August 02, 2003 :: 09:35 AM] <akenvolution> Hi putino [August 02, 2003 :: 09:36 AM] <putino> hi ak [August 02, 2003 :: 09:36 AM] <putino> :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:36 AM] *** Furbo (~Fu...@po...) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 09:36 AM] *** Mode change "+o Furbo" for channel #envolution by ChanServ [August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello furbo [August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <Furbo> hello? [August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <putino> hi Furbo [August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <Zoom> morning [August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <Furbo> sorry lil isp prob [August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <sjah> evening, furbo :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <ApathyBoy> bummer [August 02, 2003 :: 09:38 AM] <Furbo> eh just a PPoE auth error.. nothing big i was just up late so took me a little to figure it out (tired and missed the obvious) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:39 AM] <Furbo> this is it i take it? have i missed anything [August 02, 2003 :: 09:39 AM] <ApathyBoy> this is it so far [August 02, 2003 :: 09:39 AM] <Zoom> Havnt started yet...still have 20 minutes [August 02, 2003 :: 09:39 AM] <Furbo> um thought u guys said 10 am [August 02, 2003 :: 09:40 AM] <Zoom> thats 20 minutes from now [August 02, 2003 :: 09:40 AM] <Zoom> it's 0940 GMT -5 right now [August 02, 2003 :: 09:40 AM] <akenvolution> I think you are having the same problem I had with EST and ET :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:40 AM] <Zoom> Who me? [August 02, 2003 :: 09:41 AM] <akenvolution> no, Furbo :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:41 AM] <Zoom> ahh [August 02, 2003 :: 09:41 AM] *** Signoff: putino (Ping timeout) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <Zoom> you know I bet the confusison is daylight savings time.....AP and I live where it isnt recognized so I bet it is 1040 in his area which is East of AP and me [August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <Furbo> wait i thought i was in -5 and its 10:40 here [August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <Zoom> your in EDT i bet Furbo [August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <akenvolution> right, that is what I think too :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <Furbo> yeah i got daylight saving time [August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <Zoom> AP and I live in Indiana so the time is always EST [August 02, 2003 :: 09:43 AM] <ApathyBoy> we get our own time zone lol [August 02, 2003 :: 09:43 AM] <akenvolution> it is 10:43 in New York, which is -5 GMT, I think :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:43 AM] <Furbo> right.. im in same zone as ny [August 02, 2003 :: 09:43 AM] <Zoom> ahh makes sense now [August 02, 2003 :: 09:43 AM] <akenvolution> bingo! [August 02, 2003 :: 09:44 AM] <Zoom> well I cam in at 1015 (corrected time) and it was pretty much like this in terms of attendance [August 02, 2003 :: 09:45 AM] *** angelspike (ji...@ho...) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 09:46 AM] <angelspike> hello [August 02, 2003 :: 09:46 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello angelspike [August 02, 2003 :: 09:46 AM] <akenvolution> hello [August 02, 2003 :: 09:46 AM] <Zoom> good morning/afternoon [August 02, 2003 :: 09:47 AM] <angelspike> I didn't want to partecipate the chat [August 02, 2003 :: 09:47 AM] <angelspike> you can see in the envo-devel ml why [August 02, 2003 :: 09:47 AM] <ApathyBoy> i personally talked with timax and others, we cleared up the issues in the ml [August 02, 2003 :: 09:48 AM] <ApathyBoy> there was a lot of miscommunication happening, but it has been worked out :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:48 AM] <angelspike> but I was wondering how many ppl was there and what'new [August 02, 2003 :: 09:49 AM] <ApathyBoy> well the meeting is only about to start actually [August 02, 2003 :: 09:49 AM] <angelspike> I guess my mail "the envolution community" is still there [August 02, 2003 :: 09:49 AM] <ApathyBoy> You are Umberto? [August 02, 2003 :: 09:51 AM] <ApathyBoy> I just read your email a little bit ago [August 02, 2003 :: 09:51 AM] <angelspike> yes Umberto aka @ngelspike [August 02, 2003 :: 09:51 AM] <ApathyBoy> you, along with the rest of the development team were not forgotten.. this meeting is so that you all can gather so that I have a chance to meet with you and get to know all of you [August 02, 2003 :: 09:52 AM] <ApathyBoy> and so that we can discuss the future of the project [August 02, 2003 :: 09:52 AM] <angelspike> after the 1.25 we made a point [August 02, 2003 :: 09:53 AM] <angelspike> continue supporting 1.25 as stable release with only bug fixes [August 02, 2003 :: 09:53 AM] <angelspike> and begin developing the 1.3 in cvs [August 02, 2003 :: 09:54 AM] *** FurboFX (~Furbo@151.201.242.6) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 09:54 AM] <ApathyBoy> you were a developer on the project so this is a question i would like to ask you [August 02, 2003 :: 09:55 AM] <ApathyBoy> what were the long term goals of envolution? both from the development side and a technical side [August 02, 2003 :: 09:57 AM] *** cino (~cino@195.120.74.252) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 09:58 AM] <sjah> Hi Eric, before issued the news why you not discuss first with windmeup about your idea? [August 02, 2003 :: 09:58 AM] <sjah> hi cino [August 02, 2003 :: 09:58 AM] <cino> hi all [August 02, 2003 :: 09:58 AM] <cino> sorry for the late [August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <angelspike> if I don't rem bad, a priority was the improvement of the Oracle support leaded by WindmeUp [August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <angelspike> me and timax were working on template and output code optimization [August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <angelspike> the html output code of envolution (as for PN) is really bad and it's not compliance with W3C standards [August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <Zoom> Umberto do you consider cleaning up the 1.2.5 code as bug fixing? [August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <angelspike> is there someone alive? [August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <angelspike> as I wrote in my mail I don't like chat [August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <Zoom> Umberto do you consider cleaning up the 1.2.5 code as bug fixing? [August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <cino> i'm aliev [August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <akenvolution> hi :) [August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <akenvolution> I am here [August 02, 2003 :: 10:00 AM] <ApathyBoy> Sjah: The news that I released was only meant as a direction that I would like to see envolution go, not something I was enforcing. that is why we announced the developer meeting shortly afterwards, so that i could talk to everyone and discuss with them why I think that is a good direction to follow. ultimately the choice is up to the community [August 02, 2003 :: 10:01 AM] <angelspike> the cleaning up of the 1.2.5 was the development of the 1.3 [August 02, 2003 :: 10:01 AM] <Zoom> so what the difference if we call it 1.2.6 as opposed to 1.3 then? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:02 AM] <angelspike> when I mean bug-fix I mean the 1.25 is stable and finished only bug fixes and security issues will be released for this version [August 02, 2003 :: 10:02 AM] *** Signoff: Furbo (Ping timeout) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:02 AM] <sjah> Zoom: the idea is we stop the 1.25FLS as our stable version, just make a little fix if needed [August 02, 2003 :: 10:02 AM] <Zoom> Not a problem...what Im talking about is cleaning up the code in the stable release in the next version...which you are calling 1.3 [August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <angelspike> we also discuss avbout version numbering [August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <cino> apath I am a question [August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <ApathyBoy> ask away cino :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <Zoom> and where on the email list archives can I find this discussion.,...cause I dont see it anywhere [August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <cino> sorry, ihave :-) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <cino> the support to oracle is always a priority for the new pm? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:04 AM] <angelspike> I don't rem if in the env-devel or openitalia ml [August 02, 2003 :: 10:04 AM] <cino> I mean, the roles that csipiemonte write in order to have compatibility to oracle will be respected? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:04 AM] <ApathyBoy> yes, support for oracle is a priority.. as i understand there has already been some work done for this [August 02, 2003 :: 10:05 AM] <Zoom> Well if it didnt happen on the envolution dev ml then there si a problem isnt there? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:05 AM] <cino> yes some work has been done [August 02, 2003 :: 10:05 AM] <Zoom> Developers cant be expected to know what anyone is working on when the discussions are not happening on the envolution dev ml [August 02, 2003 :: 10:05 AM] <ApathyBoy> any work that has already been done will be respected and maintained :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:06 AM] <ApathyBoy> Zoom is correct, all envolution developer discussions will take place on the envolutiond-dev mailing lists. Hopefully in the future we will not have so much anger as we have had in the last several days [August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <cino> and what do you think about other auth system, like ldap etc? I did not read about it on roadmap... [August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] *** marc (~mf...@us...) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <Zoom> HI Mac [August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <Zoom> marc I mena [August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <Zoom> mean even [August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <marc> hi [August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <angelspike> unfortunely I'm at home now I'd have to check the pc at office [August 02, 2003 :: 10:08 AM] <angelspike> anyway the eng devteam was inactive so maybe we discussed all in the italian ml [August 02, 2003 :: 10:09 AM] <ApathyBoy> i think other forms of auth support are needed, and you are correct that it is not in the envolution roadmap. this is why we must all discuss and contribute ideas so that we can make the roadmap better :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:09 AM] <Zoom> we dont have seperate mailing lists based on natinal origin [August 02, 2003 :: 10:09 AM] <FurboFX> problem is if a product is called 'envolution' should not the mailing list being used be the main one? users would join the main list for support [August 02, 2003 :: 10:09 AM] *** Signoff: angelspike (Client exited) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:10 AM] <Zoom> right thats my point furbo [August 02, 2003 :: 10:10 AM] <akenvolution> would you guys consider porting existing backend to pnAPI a good thing? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:10 AM] <akenvolution> Oracle Support does just that :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:10 AM] <Zoom> seems to me a lot of development was taking place off of the envolution-dev mailing list..thats why only a sall fraction of this information can be located in the archives [August 02, 2003 :: 10:11 AM] <ApathyBoy> Yes, I also do not expect all italian members to write english that is unfair to those who do not know english.. but it also works the other way, i should not expect all english speaking members to read and write italian. this is why we must all help each other out [August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <Zoom> It seems to me that priority ne would be establishing protocols as to where development takes place [August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] *** angelspike (ji...@ho...) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <Zoom> ne = one [August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <angelspike> I'm sorry I had a client crash [August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <Zoom> welcome back [August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <ApathyBoy> welcome back :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <akenvolution> np :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:13 AM] <angelspike> anyway Zoom here you can fine some discussions about envo verionining [August 02, 2003 :: 10:13 AM] <angelspike> (Link: https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=2672111&forum_id=16620)https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=2672111&forum_id=16620 [August 02, 2003 :: 10:13 AM] <cino> in my opininon to mean lack are present in envo at the moment: there is only an autentication system, through sql, and there is no workflow framework integrated [August 02, 2003 :: 10:14 AM] <cino> and nor of them seems to be a problem for future core's developers.. [August 02, 2003 :: 10:15 AM] <Zoom> amgelspike: that thread only mention not to commit to 1.25fls and that CVS 1.3 was not ready yet...there was no discussion of versioning in it [August 02, 2003 :: 10:15 AM] <FurboFX> cino: i think we do need more authentication systems [August 02, 2003 :: 10:15 AM] <angelspike> anyway I guess it's not a question of numbers [August 02, 2003 :: 10:16 AM] <Zoom> I agree cino, LDAP, PAM modules, Kerbos, mod_auth_mysql, mod_auth_pgsql, Jabber etc [August 02, 2003 :: 10:16 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: i agree that these things are needed, i also know that the current code is not ready for this.. this is why i have suggested that we clean up the code and create standards by which things are made [August 02, 2003 :: 10:16 AM] <Zoom> any tools that could create single source logon will be a boon to business uses [August 02, 2003 :: 10:17 AM] <angelspike> we decided to step to 1,3 as the 1.25 was pretty complete and stable and the idea was to jump to a new improved version not just a minor release [August 02, 2003 :: 10:18 AM] <angelspike> for Zoom I rem You or someone with your same nick partecipate to discussion [August 02, 2003 :: 10:18 AM] <angelspike> (Link: https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5433583)https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5433583 [August 02, 2003 :: 10:18 AM] <angelspike> (Link: https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5399352)https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5399352 [August 02, 2003 :: 10:19 AM] <angelspike> (Link: https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5229721)https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5229721 [August 02, 2003 :: 10:19 AM] <angelspike> also a CVS branch was setted up [August 02, 2003 :: 10:19 AM] <cino> italian developers was ready to work on auth, I think it would be intelligence if you will show interested in ther contributes.. and not , as you did in the last days, to block their ideas.. [August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <ApathyBoy> Cino: I never meant to in the last few days block their ideas [August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <ApathyBoy> Cino: and i would be very happy to have the italian developers continue work on auth [August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <cino> but to block the cms yes ;-) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] *** putino_away (~da...@gm...) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <putino_away> hi again [August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <putino_away> i was fallen [August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <cino> sometimes the two things are near [August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <akenvolution> welcome back :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello putino [August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] *** putino_away is now known as putino [August 02, 2003 :: 10:21 AM] <Zoom> In this thread (Link: https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5433583)https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5433583 I am not in the thread..and it does not discuss versioning...it informs that a verison exists but there was no discussion of it [August 02, 2003 :: 10:21 AM] <FurboFX> cing: i understand because new pm was setting up new envolution.com site? new db? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:21 AM] <FurboFX> cino* [August 02, 2003 :: 10:21 AM] <Zoom> Also this is a mjaor problem cause in that thread Max states he has seperate private CVS...when he was telling the public is was not for development of envolution as an official CVS [August 02, 2003 :: 10:22 AM] <akenvolution> I think what Zoom is asking for is a link to discussion when decision about 1.3 was made. [August 02, 2003 :: 10:22 AM] <cino> luca wrote: [August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> I ask the founders not to give the impression (remember that when [August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> communication depends only to mailing this could be a problem) to treat [August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> envo as an only their creature to which they can do what they want, it's [August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> not so to be PM and founder is na honor but also a responsability to [August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> respond to a community far wider (I intend the staff of developers and [August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> people that contribute). [August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> this is just an example [August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> and it don't depend of new site, or other thecnical aspect [August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <angelspike> well I must go now... I guess this work better should have done in ML [August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <putino> ciao angelspike [August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <ApathyBoy> bye angelspike [August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <akenvolution> see you later :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <angelspike> bye all [August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <ApathyBoy> and yes ML is a top priority [August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] *** Signoff: angelspike (Leaving: Bye bye) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <Zoom> hummm...I never got answers to the questions from him? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:25 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: i do not understand what you are asking [August 02, 2003 :: 10:25 AM] <cino> I'm asking more respect for italian coders [August 02, 2003 :: 10:26 AM] <cino> and more space in vision and roadmap.. [August 02, 2003 :: 10:26 AM] <Zoom> all coders are respected..doesnt matter what national origin is [August 02, 2003 :: 10:26 AM] <cino> yes this is true [August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <ApathyBoy> i will be completely honest with you.. I see envolution as a big project with many people, there are many national origins but we are all one team helping each other out [August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <cino> so I think that maybe you have no much respect for all the coders that was working in envo [August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] *** Signoff: putino (Ping timeout) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <ApathyBoy> i have full respect for all coders, that is why i asked them to come here today [August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <Zoom> Are you directing that comment toward me peronally cino? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <FurboFX> he is asking basically that all the 'founder' talking ends we are all coders.. yes founders started project, but now it has grown past that is that what you mean cino? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <ApathyBoy> no i think this is to me zoom :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:28 AM] *** putino_away (~da...@gm...) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 10:28 AM] <ApathyBoy> wb putino :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:28 AM] <putino_away> thanks [August 02, 2003 :: 10:28 AM] <cino> yes forbo [August 02, 2003 :: 10:28 AM] <akenvolution> I think language barrier is the problem, not nationality [August 02, 2003 :: 10:29 AM] <cino> it seems that the founders did not look to last development in envo [August 02, 2003 :: 10:29 AM] <FurboFX> yes language can be a problem.. but we can work through that, slowly [August 02, 2003 :: 10:29 AM] <cino> maybe because of the fact that we did not use english mailing [August 02, 2003 :: 10:29 AM] <cino> and this maybe is our error [August 02, 2003 :: 10:29 AM] <akenvolution> It just happens that Italian community discusses development in Italian (which is natural), but that shuts off everybody else [August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <cino> yes it's true, but the code that was done was not in italian :-) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <sjah> I think this not about respect or not, but more there is no standard of procedures for the team [August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: It was never meant to leave out the last development team of envo :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <FurboFX> ecactly [August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <FurboFX> exactly [August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <ApathyBoy> sjah: you speak the truth [August 02, 2003 :: 10:31 AM] <akenvolution> I agree with you 100% sjah [August 02, 2003 :: 10:31 AM] <sjah> I mean if Eric start to discuss first with the current staff, there will be no problem [August 02, 2003 :: 10:31 AM] <FurboFX> may i suggest: we make up standards for coding, ML (multiple lists if need be) and some inter-language communication [August 02, 2003 :: 10:31 AM] <sjah> Because it seems to anybody the pm and zoom take over everything [August 02, 2003 :: 10:32 AM] <cino> apath think about this aspect: [August 02, 2003 :: 10:32 AM] <cino> some coders work on envo to implement support to oracle [August 02, 2003 :: 10:32 AM] <cino> and work hard on this [August 02, 2003 :: 10:33 AM] *** FurboFX is now known as Furbo [August 02, 2003 :: 10:33 AM] <cino> after some time, there is a change in the pm person [August 02, 2003 :: 10:33 AM] <cino> in my opinion, first thing that the new person should do is [August 02, 2003 :: 10:33 AM] <cino> to say to all developers that their work will not loose [August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <cino> this is politic, and you did not do it apacth [August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: i have said this several times in the last week :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <cino> ;-) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <akenvolution> But why would it be lost? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <ApathyBoy> but it seems that nobody was paying attention [August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <cino> no, you did not say it at the beginning, you told it after some flames.. [August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <putino_away> infact [August 02, 2003 :: 10:35 AM] <putino_away> i think cino is right 100% [August 02, 2003 :: 10:36 AM] <Furbo> i think a misunderstanding happened.. yes apathy did Not say 'it will not be lost' but he also did not say 'we will forget all your work' [August 02, 2003 :: 10:36 AM] <akenvolution> I still don't understand why Oracle support (a good thing) would be lost? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:36 AM] <cino> because noone of you asked to csipiemonte the role to write good code compatible to oracle :-D [August 02, 2003 :: 10:37 AM] <cino> and is very easy to have incompatibility to oracle [August 02, 2003 :: 10:37 AM] <Furbo> apathy did not address what would happen to current code.. ONly vision for future and roadmap [August 02, 2003 :: 10:37 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: this is because i assumed that everybody would keep their current positions in the envolution development team, and that they would all continue with their work :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:37 AM] <Furbo> yes i know mysql and oracle are not compatible [August 02, 2003 :: 10:38 AM] <akenvolution> Well, I don't use Oracle, thus I don't have need for it :), but it does not make me remove any code that supports Oracle! [August 02, 2003 :: 10:38 AM] <cino> it's not just a problem to remove, is a problem to add , ak [August 02, 2003 :: 10:38 AM] <Furbo> how so a problem? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:39 AM] <cino> if you don't know oracle specification, you can insert a query that don't work on oracle but work on mysql [August 02, 2003 :: 10:39 AM] <sjah> furbo: I think apathy forgot that since he is a pm so he can not say on behalf his personal vision. [August 02, 2003 :: 10:39 AM] <akenvolution> isn't that the reason envo uses pnadodb, right? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:40 AM] <Furbo> he was not stating personal visoon so much as the old roadmap.. but yes sjah, i see your point too [August 02, 2003 :: 10:40 AM] <sjah> yes, so imho this is only about miscommunication :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:40 AM] <Furbo> ok speakinf as someone who knows Oracle.. i know where cino is coming from.. adodb does not help much with certain things in oracle.. [August 02, 2003 :: 10:41 AM] <Furbo> selects can be different.. AND especially CREATE, ALTER [August 02, 2003 :: 10:41 AM] <akenvolution> well, does Oracle support break SQl support? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:41 AM] <Furbo> selects are not a big issue.. but table creates are waaay different.. data types, structure of the create command [August 02, 2003 :: 10:42 AM] <Furbo> and i have not seen How oracle support works yet in envo.. i will be though [August 02, 2003 :: 10:42 AM] *** Signoff: cino (Ping timeout) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] <ApathyBoy> sjah: i respect and agree with that opinion [August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] <Furbo> the big thing we ALL need to work on.. is communication, and making sure respect and understanding happen... [August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] *** cino_ (~cino@195.120.74.252) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] <putino_away> wb cino_ [August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] <putino_away> :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] <cino_> :-) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <Zoom> sjah do you sepak italian? Just curious [August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <Zoom> soeajk I mean [August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <sjah> no :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <cino_> I'm back [August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <Zoom> does Windmeup speak Italian? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <cino_> italian conectivity is not the best [August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <akenvolution> lol [August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <ApathyBoy> lol [August 02, 2003 :: 10:45 AM] <cino_> maybe is the worse.. [August 02, 2003 :: 10:45 AM] <akenvolution> I was having the same problem yesterday :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:45 AM] <putino_away> i know very well gprs, I'm on Omintel gprs, i fall every half hour :P [August 02, 2003 :: 10:45 AM] <cino_> and gprs don't permit to make vpn, nor to use terminal server [August 02, 2003 :: 10:45 AM] <Zoom> We need to set some develpment guidelines such as what Furbo suggested [August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <cino_> and not to see sites with apache autentication.. [August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <Furbo> for communication.. we should make a list of Who speaks what language.. and in what country they are living.. ?? maybe some speak 2-3 langs very well and can help with mis understandings [August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <putino_away> infact cino_... [August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <cino_> furbo we need a real roadmap [August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <ApathyBoy> ok, i think that we should start to discuss some important topics now such as communication and developer guidelines [August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <cino_> and a guide for all the envolution coders.. [August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <akenvolution> right [August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <Zoom> I think that there should not be closed email lists and seperate CVS's than from what the public can view [August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <akenvolution> naming conventions would be good [August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: yes that is what we need. there has not been one for envolution for the last 6+ months [August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <cino_> putino, have you icq or msr? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <Furbo> well envo never really had good standards for coding and stuff ever ;) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <putino_away> yes, MSN [August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <akenvolution> right zoom :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:48 AM] <ApathyBoy> zoom is right, this is an open source and open development project, all lists and cvs should be made publicly viewable [August 02, 2003 :: 10:48 AM] <Zoom> so can we all agree to at least that much? Open development stay open to all [August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <ApathyBoy> i agree [August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <sjah> yes [August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <akenvolution> yes [August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <Furbo> no hidden or country specific CVS.. its ok if someone have backup cvs.. but not for separate team dev.. ONE main cvs for all [August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <Zoom> cino do you agree [August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <Zoom> putino do you agree [August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <cino_> y [August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <Zoom> ?? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:50 AM] <cino_> but also a roadmap that will cover at least 3+ mounth [August 02, 2003 :: 10:50 AM] <akenvolution> Now, the question is how we achieve that :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:50 AM] <Zoom> if we agree then achieving it should be the easy [art [August 02, 2003 :: 10:50 AM] <Zoom> part [August 02, 2003 :: 10:51 AM] <cino_> anyone can have his own cvs but for other project [August 02, 2003 :: 10:51 AM] <ApathyBoy> right [August 02, 2003 :: 10:51 AM] <akenvolution> yes [August 02, 2003 :: 10:51 AM] <Zoom> putino do you agree that envolution develoment is open to all?? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <putino_away> i not agree, i don't see any wrong in having a specific CVS, most important must be open access on all CVS [August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <putino_away> and [August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <Furbo> specif cvs is in what? IF someone wants their won cvs for a 3rd party module.. fine [August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <putino_away> it's implicity only for public development [August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <Zoom> so you do not agree to open development? Is that correct? I want to make sure we understand each other. [August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <Furbo> but envolution core should only be in one main cvs.. if now, code gets missplaced [August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <cino_> putino they mean that core development is always publich development [August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <ApathyBoy> thank you cino :) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <putino_away> core development yes [August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <Furbo> yes [August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <cino_> there will not be a private release and a publich release [August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <ApathyBoy> that is right [August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <cino_> and also in the past has benn in such way [August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <Zoom> ALL official envolution cms development is open to all...Im not talking about personal projects and third party modules blocks and themes...but if it included in the envolution package it must be open for all [August 02, 2003 :: 10:54 AM] <Furbo> right.. biggest problem with that is code gets lost.. or bug fixes make it to one cvs and not all :( so cant have multple core cvs [August 02, 2003 :: 10:54 AM] <ApathyBoy> ok i'm glad we all agree on that [August 02, 2003 :: 10:55 AM] *** Akwa|user (~akwairc@213.156.56.142) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 10:56 AM] *** Signoff: Akwa|user (Leaving: ) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:56 AM] *** amsonx (~akwairc@213.156.56.142) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 10:57 AM] <amsonx> salve atutti [August 02, 2003 :: 10:57 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello [August 02, 2003 :: 10:57 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: can i ask you a favor? [August 02, 2003 :: 10:58 AM] *** Signoff: amsonx (Leaving: ) [August 02, 2003 :: 10:59 AM] <ApathyBoy> if there are any italian speaking members that come in and try to talk with us, could you please translate for me? i wish to include everybody in the discussion as best as possible [August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] *** PzSniper (~NetHaCkEr@81.72.115.250) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] * PzSniper »\\\\\\|//////«.. Greetings [August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] * PzSniper .... ( Õ. .Õ ).... from PzSniper [August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] * PzSniper ===o00o==º==o00o=== Hi Y'all! [August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] *** Signoff: putino_away (Ping timeout) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] *** FurboFX (~Fu...@po...) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello [August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] <PzSniper> Salve a tutti [August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] <PzSniper> non cè TiMax? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:02 AM] <ApathyBoy> TiMax did not show up to the meeting [August 02, 2003 :: 11:03 AM] <ApathyBoy> he was invited to along with the rest of the envolution community [August 02, 2003 :: 11:03 AM] <PzSniper> anyone here? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:03 AM] *** FurboFX has left #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] *** putino_away (~da...@gm...) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <putino_away> what about connection cino ? grrr [August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <PzSniper> putino [August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <PzSniper> mi leggi? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <putino_away> si [August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <PzSniper> e non parla nessuno? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <PzSniper> ho appena letto di venire da envo.it [August 02, 2003 :: 11:05 AM] <PzSniper> timax? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:05 AM] <putino_away> TiMax non c'è [August 02, 2003 :: 11:05 AM] <PzSniper> ma parlano o meno? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:05 AM] <PzSniper> cmq complimenti x il post, l'ho molto condiviso ;) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:05 AM] *** Signoff: sjah (Ping timeout) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:06 AM] <putino_away> thanks.. [August 02, 2003 :: 11:06 AM] <putino_away> :) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <putino_away> i must go away 20 minutes [August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <putino_away> see you [August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <ApathyBoy> see you putino [August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] *** sjah (~sja...@ip...) has joined channel #envolution [August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <ApathyBoy> welcome back sjah [August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <PzSniper> Zzzzzzzzzz [August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <ApathyBoy> ok i'd like to start talking about the roadmap [August 02, 2003 :: 11:08 AM] <ApathyBoy> I read a very good article by sjah the other day, and he made many good points [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> no private CVS's for offical envo code...no private email lists for envolution code either...do you agree with that? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <akenvolution> If it is in Envolution release, it must be in the main CVS [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <akenvolution> if it is a Third Party work, it is Third Party work [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> welcome amsonx [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Furbo> umm translation? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Furbo> hello [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Furbo> timax is not here [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Furbo> people were just here im not sure why no talking [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> hiya PzSniper [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> TiMax didnt show up [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> wb sjah [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> lol...sleepeing huh [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> ok lets move on then Eric whats next to discuss [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> what about the roadmap? do you think is right to have roadmap for al least 3 mount? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> are you alive? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> no [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> è una chat in inglese sniper :-) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> seems not, at least from 5 minutes [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> my connection is right now [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> hi sjah [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <akenvolution> hello [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <akenvolution> hello [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <akenvolution> see you later [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] *** Signoff: putino_away (Ping timeout) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> telm me apath [August 02, 2003 :: 11:10 AM] <cino_> ok apath, but my connection is not the best [August 02, 2003 :: 11:10 AM] <ApathyBoy> i understand :) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:10 AM] <sjah> sorry, change the isp :) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:11 AM] <cino_> in italian all the isp goes to interbusiness, and this is the problem :-( [August 02, 2003 :: 11:11 AM] <ApathyBoy> i see, that is a bummer [August 02, 2003 :: 11:11 AM] <cino_> apath, do you think to rewrite the roadmap? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:12 AM] <Zoom> where is the roadmap your talking about cino?? Gotta link to it? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:13 AM] <cino_> i'm talking about envo news and ML [August 02, 2003 :: 11:13 AM] <cino_> not a real roadmao [August 02, 2003 :: 11:14 AM] <Zoom> Envolution news and ML is not the roadmap...so Im trying to understand what roadmap you know to be the envolution roadmap [August 02, 2003 :: 11:14 AM] <Zoom> in otehr words what roadmap are you following...I would like to read it [August 02, 2003 :: 11:14 AM] <cino_> just a moment [August 02, 2003 :: 11:14 AM] <Zoom> ok thanks [August 02, 2003 :: 11:15 AM] <ApathyBoy> i think that the roadmap needs to be rewritten to a certain degree. I think that furbo's comment to sjah's article summed things up best [August 02, 2003 :: 11:15 AM] <ApathyBoy> "I think the issue is as u said the technical coding to the business needs. We need 2 roadmaps then.. 1) is the community vision and such.. 2) a technical how to GUIDE then" [August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <Zoom> 1 roadmap and 1 vision statment right? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <ApathyBoy> correct [August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <cino_> correct [August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <ApathyBoy> a vision for envolution that everybody can agree on [August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <Zoom> I dont think anoyone will disagree with that [August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <ApathyBoy> once we have a clear vision for the future we can then make the technical roadmap to get there [August 02, 2003 :: 11:17 AM] <akenvolution> I agree [August 02, 2003 :: 11:17 AM] <Furbo> vision (business needs, user, ) roadmap.. steps to acheive it.. [August 02, 2003 :: 11:17 AM] <ApathyBoy> right furbo [August 02, 2003 :: 11:17 AM] <sjah> yes thats right [August 02, 2003 :: 11:17 AM] <PzSniper> Hi Zoom [August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <PzSniper> here we are sowwy i was afk working at eNvo ;9 [August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <sjah> so in the future there will be no fighting for the new pm :) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <ApathyBoy> right :) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <Furbo> right.. so what does everyone want from Evnolution.. as in needs (not tech specs) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <Zoom> Yes I read your post at envolution PzSniper even though I disagree with your assessment of Apathyoy and what you referred to as the Anglo's [August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <Furbo> and "to make envolution the best CMS" is not a vision tooo broad [August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <cino_> zoom this is for me a roadmap, or at least an opinion of that the roadmap will be: (Link: http://www.envolution.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10003&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)http://www.envolution.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10003&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 [August 02, 2003 :: 11:19 AM] <ApathyBoy> i also do not think that this irc chat is the right place to begin this discussion about vision.. i think that we should be asking the community what they want [August 02, 2003 :: 11:19 AM] <Furbo> probaly yes [August 02, 2003 :: 11:19 AM] <PzSniper> Do i need the +v? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:19 AM] <ApathyBoy> maybe put news postings on many sites asking community members "What do you want from Envolution?" [August 02, 2003 :: 11:19 AM] <cino_> I think that you shoud ask to the coders and not only to the peole [August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <ApathyBoy> No PzSniper i can see you fine [August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <Furbo> yes i agree.. bc we need to compile ALL the needs then make a common vision [August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <cino_> and that you should identify the "people" you want to satisfy [August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: coders are part of the community [August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <Furbo> everyone gets a say in vision [August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <Furbo> and yes.. we have to define our 'target market' [August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <PzSniper> Ohh Okay Apathy i'm glad to have chance 2 read u [August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <cino_> ok, but if you have in mind yung people that want to biuld their own site [August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <cino_> you will have a roadmap [August 02, 2003 :: 11:21 AM] <cino_> instead, if you have in mind industries, you will have other opinions.. and so on [August 02, 2003 :: 11:21 AM] <PzSniper> can i ask WHY you felt a need of a new ROADMAP apathy? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:21 AM] <Zoom> roadmap is nothing more than step to achieving goals [August 02, 2003 :: 11:21 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: this was not a new roadmap, it is the roadmap envolution has had all along but just not followed [August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <PzSniper> Okay Zoom, but why you talk me woth @spy!? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <Furbo> what is the goals of envolution? can someone tell me that and have somethign to back it up? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <Zoom> where is the roadmap you folks followed before ApathyBoy became involved...I keep hearing Eric is changing it yet I dont finds a roadmap anywhere to compare it to to see what you claim he has changed [August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <cino_> and apath this was not follewed because we found people with other necessities [August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <PzSniper> It was TiMax leadership the cause? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <Furbo> the vision of envo was "to be the best" thats not goals.. not a vision [August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <Zoom> PzSniper I didnt understand you last statement [August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <cino_> furbo it dosn't have sense to be the best, you can't be the best... :-) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <PzSniper> Which one Zoom please [August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <PzSniper> ? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <cino_> it has sense to be the best in one thing, not in general [August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <Zoom> <PzSniper> Okay Zoom, but why you talk me woth @spy!? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <Furbo> im not saying i want to be the best.. but that is the only 'vision' anyone at evno lately can tell me [August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <PzSniper> Someone whne you talk me Zoom my client open a news window where i can't reply u..in pvt i mean [August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <Furbo> cino_, what is your goal for envolution.? your needs? Not technical [August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <cino_> so I repeat: what is the target you want to have for envo? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <Zoom> we dont talk in private in meetings PzSniper...it's a public meeting [August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <Zoom> so all information is out in the open [August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <cino_> my vision is to have a general, modular and advanced cms [August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <PzSniper> yes, but it's YOU not me hehe [August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <cino_> possibly with the separations of all modules from the core [August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <PzSniper> anyway no pb [August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <Zoom> Im not chatting wth you privately [August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <PzSniper> Okay nvm [August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <cino_> with a workflow engine, with a modular authentication system [August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <cino_> with all written with the api [August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <Furbo> ok those are things we to keep in mind.. [August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <cino_> with the support to oracle and to mssql [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <Furbo> who do you see using envolution? what kind of user? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <Zoom> befoe you can get to a workflow code, or ldap we need cleaned up code tree [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <cino_> I see two king of user, at least in italy [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <Zoom> optimize it and clean up the output [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <ApathyBoy> zoom is correct on this [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <cino_> I see end user, the ones that use envo for personal site [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <PzSniper> Cleaning up code, mean delete Encompass? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <PzSniper> i hope not [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <Zoom> no it doesnt it means cleanin it up [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <cino_> that want more anvatar etc.. [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <Zoom> doesnt mean deleting anything [August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <ApathyBoy> before we can introduce advanced features into envolution we must have a solid system with standards [August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <PzSniper> cino, which kind of italian users? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <PzSniper> Okay zoom [August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <cino_> and coders that work to build sites, for their enterprise of for work [August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <Furbo> k [August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <cino_> and I think the necessities of the second group are more and more important that the first one [August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <Zoom> so there are personal users and business users [August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <cino_> yep [August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <cino_> in not real? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <Zoom> but niether is more important than the other [August 02, 2003 :: 11:28 AM] <PzSniper> Apathy, standard sys will be a clone of PN? dpn't you fear that? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:28 AM] <Furbo> see thats a start of a vision for envolution.. personal users, novice coders, enterprise apps.. and you mention coders should be priority over personal site users.. thats a start :) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:28 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: i do not fear this because we are not the same people as PN, we are different people with different ideas [August 02, 2003 :: 11:28 AM] <Furbo> a vision is the WHAT of a system.. the rooadmap is the HOW and WHEN [August 02, 2003 :: 11:28 AM] <PzSniper> cino, coders you mean comeone for not business market? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <cino_> I would like to know the opinion ot the pm about that [August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <Zoom> Some coders come from a non-businessmarket yes [August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <PzSniper> pm? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: my opinion is close to yours [August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <Furbo> im not sayint that cino's ideas are the only ones.. but its a start of ideas for a vision [August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <Furbo> the hardes thing especially for coders in making a vison is keeping it as NON-technical as possible [August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <PzSniper> IMHO the major problme felt by users is the end of international support [August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <cino_> pzsniper: oftner the necessities of professional coders are different from people that code for their site [August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <sjah> I agreed with furbo, vision is WHAT, so users can see the different between envo with others pn, xaraya etc [August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <Zoom> I agree sjah [August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: just because i myself do not speak italian doesn't mean tthat i do not support internation community [August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <PzSniper> yes true [August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <PzSniper> but honestly [August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <sjah> why should i used envo, why not others, what is the added value from users side [August 02, 2003 :: 11:31 AM] <cino_> if you code for pleasure, in not important to authenticate in pop3 or imap... [August 02, 2003 :: 11:31 AM] <PzSniper> from italy i'm telling you THAT'S something scare [August 02, 2003 :: 11:31 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: we will always work hard for the international community [August 02, 2003 :: 11:31 AM] <PzSniper> i don't wanna bother you Apathy, but you gave this idea to us [August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <PzSniper> yes, i wanna beleive you... but maybe your voice on italian community could help your imagine [August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <Zoom> I f we clean the code we can sya we have a less resource intensive CMS than PN and Xaraya which will allow business users better perfoamnce and personal users less overhead and problems on shared hosting environments...among a million other benefits [August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: i am sorry that i gave you that idea, it was never meant that way.. i hope that we can all move forward from this :) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <PzSniper> tha's just an advice [August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <PzSniper> if you wanna [August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <PzSniper> i'm offering to translate your toughts for the rest of italian ppl [August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <ApathyBoy> i would appreciate that PzSniper [August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <Furbo> right cino.. some novice users may not care for advanced features.. BUT if that is not our target user base thats not an issue [August 02, 2003 :: 11:33 AM] <Zoom> cino_: Users still use internet services so authentication to them may not be important but they do not want to sign up to 15 different envo sites when a single source login would make their involvement and particpation easier [August 02, 2003 :: 11:33 AM] <Zoom> so indirectly the technology business users want aids the simple end user [August 02, 2003 :: 11:34 AM] <Furbo> the proble is its very easy for developers do say "our users want ldap and such" because we want that but what if we have 100,000 users and 80,000 are personal site users.. then our target usrebase is NOT advanced users :( i find it hard to believe that as large as the userbase for envo is ALL are enterprise users [August 02, 2003 :: 11:34 AM] <Zoom> This sint an Itlaian community or a Jewsih community or an American community...it's the Envolution community....doesnt matter where you are from so can we please leave the secular crap at the door [August 02, 2003 :: 11:35 AM] <Zoom> we are all equal regardless of our national origin [August 02, 2003 :: 11:35 AM] <cino_> ok zoom this is the reality [August 02, 2003 :: 11:35 AM] <Zoom> so please stop seperating us by our ethnic heratige [August 02, 2003 :: 11:35 AM] <cino_> you are right [August 02, 2003 :: 11:36 AM] <Zoom> I dont have italian friends...or German friends...or American friends...I just have friends [August 02, 2003 :: 11:36 AM] <cino_> but if you want to achive something you have to move to it [August 02, 2003 :: 11:36 AM] <PzSniper> I agree Zoom [August 02, 2003 :: 11:36 AM] <Zoom> cino": and sometimes that means you have to accept change [August 02, 2003 :: 11:36 AM] <ApathyBoy> yes i agree with Zoom [August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <Furbo> ok apathy, guys we need to ASK our developers, users (non-tech and coder users) the whole community what THEY want.. [August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <Zoom> Yes Furbo that si true....but the coding standard are what the PM sets [August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <PzSniper> Is that chat for Roadmap or users req? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <cino_> I think that in this way envo will not be such different from other cms [August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <Furbo> then the dev team can figure out what they want too... AND try to come up with a vision.. and THEN a roadmap of how [August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <PzSniper> just a quest ;) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:38 AM] <cino_> i'm sorry I've to go out, have a nice day, see on ML [August 02, 2003 :: 11:38 AM] <Zoom> c-ya cino [August 02, 2003 :: 11:38 AM] <akenvolution> PzSniper: what do you personally want from next envo release? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:38 AM] <ApathyBoy> Goodbye cino.. thanks for stopping in and sharing your thoughts, it was appreciated :) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:38 AM] <Furbo> PM enforces standards (like a cop in a way).. does not establish things by himself yes coding standards are needed.. so is vision, roadmap, everything [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <akenvolution> see you later [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <Furbo> cya cino [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <sjah> by cino [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <cino_> hi all [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <PzSniper> Personally [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <akenvolution> yes [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <akenvolution> Just you [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <PzSniper> i'm starting a web design agency b4 end of year [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <PzSniper> but [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <akenvolution> ok, good for you :) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <PzSniper> 6 month ago i've started a web communty [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <Zoom> Furbo: one thing because of our diversity you'll never get 100% agreement on anything...so in effect the PM does set the standard based on input fro all...but bottom line is the PM has to set it [August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <PzSniper> based on phpbb and a php portal [August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <Furbo> for vision and roadmap we need to use the site, ml anything to get dev team, users feedback.. [August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> now i'm migrating to eNvo [August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <Furbo> actually the PM organizes the dev team [August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> so i'm new [August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] *** Signoff: cino_ (Leaving: Trillian ((Link: http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> anyway [August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <Furbo> the pm should have people who help ADVISE and as a group comprimise [August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> on this community i'm ALREADY testing the functionality of a CMS [August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> and i've tested many beleive me [August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <Zoom> comprimise is nt always good thing Furbo [August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> my choice fallen on Envo [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <akenvolution> why? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <PzSniper> i really bet a lot on it beleive me [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <PzSniper> why? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <Furbo> life is a compremise zoom.. people who dont, tend to be alone a lot [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <PzSniper> for the power and user frinedly [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <akenvolution> What specifically do you want from it? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <PzSniper> interface [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <Zoom> compromise means that two opposing sides dont get what they want...it implies both sides loose [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <akenvolution> Is it admin interface or user interface or both? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <ApathyBoy> i think Zoom means that if you try to make everybody happy at the same time by including everything that everybody wants it will not work [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <Furbo> actualy no.. it can also mean that 2 sides sit down and figure out that what BOTH wanted was not the best.. that a 3rd option is better [August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <PzSniper> the best goal IMHO is to add function both for end user and company [August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <PzSniper> admin expecially arken [August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <Zoom> Furbo thats not comprimise...thats redefining needs which IS a good thing [August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <Furbo> can we make everyone happy.. NO.. but since everyone says 'envo is a democracy' put it to a vote.. majoriey rules.. [August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <Zoom> if we all sit down and agree then we ghavnt comrimised [August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <Furbo> if anyone doesnl like that.. Leave then [August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <ApathyBoy> lol we also need to start using the same dictionary :) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <akenvolution> So, what you want from envo is an easy way to admin your site, correct? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <Zoom> Envoluiton is not a democracy...it was establish long ago as a meritocracy [August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <PzSniper> no hold on... easy is OK, but not poor for power user! [August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <PzSniper> for exaple [August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <PzSniper> 2day i've learned how implement PHP/HTML page [August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <PzSniper> directly clicking on MENU at left [August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <PzSniper> and opening it inside INDEX [August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: you want something that is easy enough for everybody to use, but powerful enough to give more features to a power user? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <Furbo> IF we find out that 90% of the people (users and devs) want X and the pm, or a core dev doesnt.. who should win? the community! [August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> not easy for a newbie [August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> but a very excellent feature for power user [August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> yes aphaty [August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <akenvolution> Ok, do you need LDAP? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> the portal i used b4 was yes yes, but not good for paly with code [August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <Zoom> It's not a contest...it's not a win loose situation...if 90% want to have bloated vode with poor results are we gonna accept that? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> so i drop iut [August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> it [August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <ApathyBoy> Furbo yes you are right: and all zoom is saying is that the pm would be the one to make the final announcement that says we are going to follow the communities choice [August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <Zoom> within coding standards yes [August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <Furbo> announcement.. yes NOT all decision [August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <PzSniper> (sorry 4 typos i write faster ;) ) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <akenvolution> np :) [August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <Zoom> I never said all decison...just the final decision [August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <PzSniper> personally i like the hard coding, coz it's the ONLY way to know well your work [August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <Zoom> his desicion based on input from all [August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <sjah> Zoom, i think it should be decided clearly, democracy or not. Founders can make it [August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <PzSniper> for me the managment of modules or blocks is marvelous [August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <akenvolution> I agree with sjah on this one [August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <PzSniper> maybe something more could be done for the Themes [August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <Furbo> most of the community could care less about code bloat or HOW we do it.. they want feature x [August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <Zoom> See Sjah....Im trying to downplay the founders thing......All a founder should be doing now is making sure the project stays open thats all [August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <akenvolution> so you want more modules, correct? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <PzSniper> i't was very hard find a good one, so i done it myself [August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <Zoom> and thats all I want to do really [August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <ApathyBoy> i think that maybe it would be a good idea that we clearly define all of the roles of the staff.. Project Manager, Lead Developer and so on [August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <sjah> I meant you can play in between, community can decide if he agree or not [August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <akenvolution> so, you code your own modules, correct? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <Furbo> right.. that needs done too [August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <Furbo> who is what [August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <sjah> sorry can't play in between [August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <ApathyBoy> and what authority if any they have, and on what [August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <Zoom> I dont follow Sjah..can you reframe your last comment again please? [August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <Furbo> i know im nothing.. so their is 1 down.. 1000000 to go [August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 A... [truncated message content] |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-03 16:52:43
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On Sun, 2003-08-03 at 10:00, Romeo Bandinelli wrote: > At 22.22 02/08/03 -0500, you wrote: > ><quote> > >... nobody has considered our Lead Developer, Doc Manager, and Support > >Manager... nobody asked all the staff members on what they were working > >on, which goals they reached, what they thinked etc. etc. more than this > >all non English people, mainly Italian, French and German were > >immediately declassed. > ><end quote> > > > >That is the factually inaccurate information! The entire community, not > >just those who were given a title by Max, we invited to attend the > >meeting and contribute their thoughts and ideas... > > > And what about italian admin support (myself ;-) ) ? You were invited to the meeting and I believe you attended did you not? > And what about http://bug.envolution.com and http://bug.envolution.it, that > are on my machine? What about them? You have to understand I do not have ESP and I cannot take care of issues that nobody communicates to me. Max never once mentioned tansferring the envolution.it domain and in fact I assumed he would keep it and run the Italian International website. As for bug.envolution.com that can be redirected very easily. Except no one has given me a FQDN or IP address to forward it to! All of these people have been emailed about international sites and resources. Max did not include you name on the list he provided, instead he included his own name. Maroc E-mail: abd...@ya... RDS envolution belgium E-mail: web...@en... Env Singapore asiaone E-mail: as...@as... Malaysia asruls E-mail: as...@ma... Env Indonesian sjah E-mail: sja...@Ba... Env Australia suleman E-mail: sul...@bi... Envo polish tinta E-mail: ti...@au... Envo spanish Nuclei E-mail: nu...@en... Envo italy TiMax E-mail: ti...@en... Envo France pantosite philipc E-Mail : anu...@ho... Envo Germany WindMeUp Gatonero E-mail: s.k...@pr... > Nobody ask for them, nobody seems to be interested fot them.. > Can you dimostrate the contrary? > Yes I just did. I did ask Max for a full list of Internation Support Site Managers and the above list is what he sent. Also I have correspondance from Max about which domains would be tansferring and I can forward you that email as well if you still wish to blame someone for omitting bug.envolution.com. > To avoid this and other mistakes I hope you soon will write down a clear > roadmap and a clear document for responsabilities in the project > administration and development... I want to remember you that in the last > chat, nobody answer me about the roadmap of envo in the next 3+ months. > > Romeo aka cino > The only published roadmap that Envolution has ever had is here: http://www.envolution.com/index.php?module=subjects&func=listpages&subid=2 If Max came up with a new one he sure didn't let the community know and he sure didn't publish it for all to see. Responsibilities are outlined here...and have been since the beginning of Envoltuion: http://www.envolution.com/index.php?module=subjects&func=viewpage&pageid=10 These guidelines are subject to change and frankly probably will. But complaining that they dont exist is simply an excercise in laziness. Terms of Use are also outlined here: http://www.envolution.com/index.php?name=Legal Zoom |
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From: Romeo B. <ro...@op...> - 2003-08-03 15:00:40
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At 22.22 02/08/03 -0500, you wrote: ><quote> >... nobody has considered our Lead Developer, Doc Manager, and Support >Manager... nobody asked all the staff members on what they were working >on, which goals they reached, what they thinked etc. etc. more than this >all non English people, mainly Italian, French and German were >immediately declassed. ><end quote> > >That is the factually inaccurate information! The entire community, not >just those who were given a title by Max, we invited to attend the >meeting and contribute their thoughts and ideas... And what about italian admin support (myself ;-) ) ? And what about http://bug.envolution.com and http://bug.envolution.it, that are on my machine? Nobody ask for them, nobody seems to be interested fot them.. Can you dimostrate the contrary? To avoid this and other mistakes I hope you soon will write down a clear roadmap and a clear document for responsabilities in the project administration and development... I want to remember you that in the last chat, nobody answer me about the roadmap of envo in the next 3+ months. Romeo aka cino |
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From: gagl <ca...@fr...> - 2003-08-03 11:11:47
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hi to evrybody, Sorry I can't answer fast to mail and posts, but I'm in holiday e don't = have access to computer when I want.... First, some old replies to stop flames @AK: don't worry, I don't have anythink against you, only I didn't = understand how a new entry in dev could answer to to the Lead dev : = "Now, if you disagree with Envolution vision, you are free to do the same thing four Envolution founders did in 2002, namely fork. "..... @ Zoom: I don't want to accuse nobody, only understand what's going = on.... Now, I couldn't partecipate toi meeting yesterday: I'm on holyday and = Saturday, 4 pm of the 2 August is not the best time in Italy to join a = chat on Internet... sorry... family affairs. I would like to have log file : I looked for it in ML, on .com site, but = didn't find it. I saw here in ML some decision you took (Terms, etc.) and I hope this = meeting was important to knoweach other, and that things were discussed = and proposals made, but that no definitely decisions were taken: a = single chat meeting between some of staff couldn't determinate = envo-future.... and who wasn't there has nothing to say or showed that = he isn't interested in envo. I also think that this dev-ML could be the = right place to discuss, but without flames (how Sjah said rightly). Waiting for log, capretta |
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From: Sjahrazad A. <sja...@ba...> - 2003-08-03 09:12:36
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By opening founders debate in envo.com, I think it is good to start new culture in os community, please try to solve the dispute in civilized, professional way. All of you have to make agreement on top of your disagreement. I mean all of you have to avoid personal attacking each other, but focus to discuss why this dispute happened and how to solve it, so it will not repeat for the future. Just back to all of your ideas in the beginning of envo, and find out any weakness of your previous agreed statement. Even contract made by lawyer can have a hole. Any founder can choose to involve in envo or not but still a founder, and still has the right to speak about envo. I see all dispute in opensource always ending by personal attack each other. Honestly this is not professional! Best regards, sjah |
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From: Sjahrazad A. <sja...@ba...> - 2003-08-03 08:31:20
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On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:53:23 -0500, Eric Barr wrote > [...] > This is no longer the "TiMax" era, but it is also not the beginning > of the "ApathyBoy" era either. The problem here is that this project > is not about any one person, but about the entire community.[...] This is good news Eric. I posted my suggestions before read this email. It seems you already do your homework well:) Good luck, sjah |
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From: Sjahrazad A. <sja...@ba...> - 2003-08-03 08:18:59
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On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 03:25:51 +0200, Stefan K=F6hler wrote > [...] > (remember I told you that this should not be part of a public=20 > mailing list or as a comment of an article - I think that was fair),=20 > I got no answers or infos. The only result of this mailing was, that=20 > you delete me from LeadDeveloper List and I'm normal member now.=20 > That is your right. Nothing to say. But it would be nice if you can=20 > inform me about this step, isn't it? [...] Hi Zoom, Saytheb, TiMax, MadHatter, As I said in our meeting, to avoid the same situation in the future ,all=20 procedures, rules should be stated clearly. Founders have a freedom to=20 create their own rules as long as all staff /communities know it from the= =20 beginning. I quote here the statement created by MADHATter7, TiMax, saytheb, and Zoo= m=20 on August 3, 2002: http://www.envolution.com/index.php? module=3Dsubjects&func=3Dviewpage&pageid=3D24 and also read the next page= 25: >> quote >> The primary duty of the Founders will be to act as a governing board of=20 directors and implement policy. All positions within the organization are= =20 ultimately responsible to the Founders. Other than governing the project = the=20 Founders will activly participate in every facet of the project including= =20 the community. Recruiting developers, spreading the word about the=20 community, and facilitating growth through partnerships with other entiti= es.=20 Bridging cultural and language barriers is also a primary function of the= =20 Founders. << quote << As long as cyber-friendship between founders run well, there will be no=20 problem with the above quote. But.. Now the problem is who are exactly founders? TiMax even he resigned from=20 envo, he still a founder too and still has a voice, except it stated in t= he=20 above section or other sections. But it wasn't. If one of the founders ma= de=20 a statement, it doesn't mean can be seen as founders statement. Founders=20 statement is accepted, if all founders agreed on that statement. Unfortunately, not like in the company owner can sell his capital and not= =20 become owner anymore, here since all of you use the word founder then you= =20 can not sell your 'found' even until you getting old:)=20 Ok today, Zoom and saytheb is in the same opinion. How if one day you als= o=20 split again? How if Zoom start another deving again? I mean ZoomDev :) An= d=20 who is the founders then? How to solve this dispute without creating fighting among the community? = I=20 have suggestions here to consider, and hope all of you want to step back = a=20 while :): 1. Founders make a meeting in envo forum, just only between founders. 2. In that meeting all of you can debate, cyber fighting :) as much as yo= u=20 wish. I think the community / staff/ coders will don't care who win or=20 loose :). The community only need a clear statement from the founders res= ult. 3. Then post the result in envo.com, whatever the content is the communit= y=20 will decide if they still be here or not. This is a freedom of choice.=20 Founders should solve their own problems, don't bring it to the community= .=20 Founders here not Zoom or TiMax, all founders should give their name in t= hat=20 statement.=20 4. Now what about the ApathyBoy? I think since all of founders agreed he=20 become a PM, so in my opinion there is no reason for the community to=20 against him. So we as the community should support him as PM. If there ar= e=20 some members don't like the PM it is also can be accepted, so you become = a=20 member who don't like PM :) Again this is a freedom of choice. 5. There two problems here, just separate it. The first is problem betwee= n=20 founders, and solve it between founders. Second is about the existing sta= ff.=20 In company existing staff is a valuable asset. Here since all of them spe= nt=20 their time for free, for public benefit, the new PM should re-think about= =20 this again, this is his homework.=20 In this point I can see why FB PHP-Nuke, choose to become single fighter:= )=20 he don't has this problem. And why TiMax open the MaxDev, it is also=20 reasonable, it is good for him, since why should he spent his time only f= or=20 unproductive flaming war. In my personal opinion, this is not a big problem at all. It is only disp= ute=20 between cyber-friends in a small group call founders. It become problem=20 since the founders bring their disputes to developer list and envo.com Me personally, also don't have problem with what label given to me, membe= r,=20 staff or support manager for me is the same. In real life I have a label=20 president director, and it is not also make me proud at all, it is normal= =20 I'm a businessman. But here I have a respect to all of you who spent your= =20 valuable time for public. Based on that respect I want to contribute as l= ong=20 as I have my spare time, even without label, as long as I can take benefi= t=20 from the opensource products. Finally, please stop all flaming war between founders here in devel list,= =20 let the new PM start his planning in this list. You can open your founder= s=20 list to arguing between founders :) have a nice day Best regards, sjah |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-03 07:05:53
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You can read the Terms of Use policy at: http://www.envolution.com/index.php?name=Legal These terms apply to all Envolution resources not just the website. This module has been in Envolution since the very beginning so this is nothing new. Zoom |
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From: Eric B. <apa...@xe...> - 2003-08-03 05:13:38
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Just a quick addon to this, Over the next few days i will be making contact with all of the current Support Managers to help them out and answer any questions they have on this. Many support sites will not see a change because they have already been following this as far as communication goes. All this is meant to do is to help everyone keep in communication with each other. Communication is the key to making Envolution the best project around :) Thanks! Eric Barr (a.k.a. ApathyBoy) Project Manager - Envolution ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Kindley" <sc...@ki...> To: "Evolution-Dev-List" <env...@li...> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 12:03 AM Subject: [Envolution-devel] Envolution Official International Website Policy This announcement is to inform the Envolution Community how we will be implementing navigation to our International Support Sites and how those websites interact with each other based on the input and feedback from the organizational meeting held Aug 2, 2003. The Envolution International Network of websites is just that, a network. So as a network there are some guidelines and requirements to be considered an Official Envolution International Website. To create a network which functions in a similar manner and provides a clear and concise image and web presence to the public at large our community has voted to implement these changes in policy toward networked Envolution websites. Once again, these policies do not affect non-official websites or enthusiast websites they are specifically for Official Envolution International Websites. 1) This section will describe URL naming conventions and how navigation and forwarding to Official Envolution International Websites will take place. I will use an example to illustrate how we will be implementing this. Stefan Köhler is the webmaster of the Official German Envolution International Website. He currently manages the envolution.de domain. People who wish to access support in the German language will still be able to acces that site with the familiar domain name envolution.de, so nothing in regard to that changes. We will however place the envolution.net domain seperate from the envolution.com content. The envolution.net domain is defined by the .net top level domain designation which is an internet standard for identifying networks. We will place a single webpage up on the envolution.net website that lists each Official Envolution International Network Website individually. Information will contain contact names for each Official Envolution International Website along with a brief welcoming message in the language appropriate to each website. Links will be provided for the Official Envolution International Website in this format: http://www.germany.envolution.net http://www.germany.envolution.com http://www.germany.envolution.org http://www.germany.envolution.info http://www.germany.envolution.biz All five of the Envolution top level domains need not be listed if that is not preferred by the Official Envoltuion International Website Manager. But they can be. 2) This section will cover the requirements and guidelines for being appointed an Official Envolution International Website. a) All Official Envolution International Websites will be required to maintain a similar look and feel. That is to say that each Official Envolution International Website must be running the Envolution CMS. They should have the same theme but may have different colors and such. For example of this take a look at http://www.germany.envolution.net. It has the same theme as the Envolution.com website...yet still maintains it's own identity by the use of different graphics and colors. b) All Official Envolution International Websites will also designate someone who can interact with the main Envolution.com staff to coordinate news and translations of news. The primary contact from International Websites to the main Envolution.com website should be coordinated with the Project Manager ApathyBoy. c) All Official Envolution International Websites will need to provide reciprocal links back to other Official Envolution International Websites, including the main Envolution.com website using the same URL naming conventions described above in section one. The reasons for this policy implementation is to help overcome communication barriers between all the different cultures and languages our community uses. By providing the reciprocal links we truley will become a network of international websites. It also gives a constant URL naming convention for visitors to use that still identifies the Envolution brand and allows individual maintainers of the websites to concentrate on support and development instead of DNS issues. It also does not lock Envolution into a particular server should an Official International Website change. If for example the current Official Envolution International Website becomes inactive or chooses not to support the Envolution project we can simply redesginate the domains to a website that will take it's place. This policy protects the community and preserves the ability of individual official international websites to act independantly of the main Envolution.com website to better serve the support and language needs of their constituants. These policies were discussed and voted upon in the Organizational meeting on August 2, 2003 without objection. ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 _______________________________________________ Envolution-devel mailing list Env...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-03 05:03:56
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This announcement is to inform the Envolution Community how we will be implementing navigation to our International Support Sites and how those websites interact with each other based on the input and feedback from the organizational meeting held Aug 2, 2003. The Envolution International Network of websites is just that, a network. So as a network there are some guidelines and requirements to be considered an Official Envolution International Website. To create a network which functions in a similar manner and provides a clear and concise image and web presence to the public at large our community has voted to implement these changes in policy toward networked Envolution websites. Once again, these policies do not affect non-official websites or enthusiast websites they are specifically for Official Envolution International Websites. 1) This section will describe URL naming conventions and how navigation and forwarding to Official Envolution International Websites will take place. I will use an example to illustrate how we will be implementing this. Stefan K=C3=B6hler is the webmaster of the Official German Envolution International Website. He currently manages the envolution.de domain. People who wish to access support in the German language will still be able to acces that site with the familiar domain name envolution.de, so nothing in regard to that changes. We will however place the envolution.net domain seperate from the envolution.com content. The envolution.net domain is defined by the .net top level domain designation which is an internet standard for identifying networks. We will place a single webpage up on the envolution.net website that lists each Official Envolution International Network Website individually. Information will contain contact names for each Official Envolution International Website along with a brief welcoming message=20 in the language appropriate to each website. Links will be provided for the Official Envolution International Website in this format: http://www.germany.envolution.net http://www.germany.envolution.com http://www.germany.envolution.org http://www.germany.envolution.info http://www.germany.envolution.biz All five of the Envolution top level domains need not be listed if that is not preferred by the Official Envoltuion International Website Manager. But they can be.=20 2) This section will cover the requirements and guidelines for being appointed an Official Envolution International Website. a) All Official Envolution International Websites will be required to maintain a similar look and feel. That is to say that each Official Envolution International Website must be running the Envolution CMS. They should have the same theme but may have different colors and such. For example of this take a look at http://www.germany.envolution.net. It has the same theme as the Envolution.com website...yet still maintains it's own identity by the use of different graphics and colors. b) All Official Envolution International Websites will also designate someone who can interact with the main Envolution.com staff to coordinate news and translations of news. The primary contact from International Websites to the main Envolution.com website should be coordinated with the Project Manager ApathyBoy. c) All Official Envolution International Websites will need to provide reciprocal links back to other Official Envolution International Websites, including the main Envolution.com website using the same URL naming conventions described above in section one. The reasons for this policy implementation is to help overcome communication barriers between all the different cultures and languages our community uses. By providing the reciprocal links we truley will become a network of international websites. It also gives a constant URL naming convention for visitors to use that still identifies the Envolution brand and allows individual maintainers of the websites to concentrate on support and development instead of DNS issues.=20 It also does not lock Envolution into a particular server should an Official International Website change. If for example the current Official Envolution International Website becomes inactive or chooses not to support the Envolution project we can simply redesginate the domains to a website that will take it's place. This policy protects the community and preserves the ability of individual official international websites to act independantly of the main Envolution.com website to better serve the support and language needs of their constituants. These policies were discussed and voted upon in the Organizational meeting on August 2, 2003 without objection. |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-03 04:55:11
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On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 23:35, TiMax wrote: > On 02 Aug 2003 23:21:10 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote: > > I don't have Italian friends, Polish friends, English friends...etc. I > > only have friends. It doesn't matter to me what their national origin is > > to me. So in my eyes there is no need to separate the community based on > > culture or nationality > > Sorry for you Zoom i have Polish, French, German, Italian, Canadian friends and i m very happy of that, Sorry I juts have friends. Don't matter to me where they are from. > i respect all history, habitudes, and all religions, As do I. > but i think is important also to remark differences, because if you are able to valorize all differences you are also able to receive all advantages each difference can give you. > I can appriciate culture Max...even culture different than my own. You focus on their differences Max...I focus on our commonalities instead. You do what you wish..but legally speaking one cannot consider national origin as a qualifying trait for anything. To do so is basis for discrimination. That is true in the US and in Canada...I have no idea about Italy or other countries. > So i m Italian but i m in Canada now, i m different from others Canadian because i talk poor French language and i m Italian but my Canadian friends appreciate me also because i m Italian and different and me also. > Again you conentrate on people differences I concetrate on commonalities. Things we share in common instead! > i don't know for you but for me each differences is very great and important for me. > The things we have in common are more important than our differecnes in my opinion. > So for me their national origin is for me very important, and i m happy when i can learn about different origin from me. > I don't care where you come from..Envolution welcomes you regardless of natinal origin. I don't classify people based on color, creed, national origin, sex, eye color, hair color, weight, height, or marital status. > Maybe that is the differences Zoom, but i don't know if you can understand. > > TiMax > Or maybe you don't understand Max. Of course I don't think you would ever accept that either. Zoom |
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From: TiMax <ma...@em...> - 2003-08-03 04:53:48
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Thanks for all your answers, that is all i want TiMax On 02 Aug 2003 23:40:03 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote: >=A0 =A0On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 22:57, TiMax wrote: >=A0 =A0>=A0Do you have read all comments in italian language ? and in french= language ? =A0and in german language ? i think not ...... >=A0 =A0> > >=A0 =A0I don't read every comment in the English language either, so whats= your >=A0 =A0point? > >=A0 =A0>=A0Anyway yes, that is my opinions and you MUST respect that, =A0so if you= don't want to put my news online no problem for me, maybe for other people= yes ... >=A0 =A0> > >=A0 =A0I will not put any content on the website that comatains obvious false >=A0 =A0statements for anyone. > >=A0 =A0>=A0And you see also apathyboy agree is not a good idea to put this news= online, and that is the problem, =A0when AP put online his news he don't talk= with nobody, he don't hear nobody =A0WindMeUp, Capretta, Sjah other= developers .. nobody >=A0 =A0>=A0Only today maybe after some days news are online ...... >=A0 =A0> > >=A0 =A0He talked with everyone who botherd to show up to the planned >=A0 =A0organizational meeting...you know the one YOU didn't show up for. AP >=A0 =A0posted his thoughts abouit the roadmap so that people could think about >=A0 =A0it and bring their questions inputs and concerns to the community= during >=A0 =A0the meeting. It;s that simple. > >=A0 =A0You didn't consult or talk to the community when you started a closed >=A0 =A0development email list only for certain envolution developers. >=A0 =A0Envolution was founded on the principles that development would always >=A0 =A0remain open. But took it upon yourself to ignore that and your= agreement >=A0 =A0with the other three founders about keeping Envolution development open >=A0 =A0to everyone. I aim to keep Envolution open to all...not just your= staff. > >=A0 =A0If you would like to discuss this more let me know and I'll post your >=A0 =A0emails for all to see for themsleves. > > >=A0 =A0>=A0Zoom so if you have good consideration of other languages can you tell= me wath Italian, French and German comments tell you in respective support= sites and in envoltuion.com site ? >=A0 =A0> > >=A0 =A0Personally Max I know you have been busy stirring up trouble by telling >=A0 =A0lies and making misrepresentations based on your own perspectives and >=A0 =A0opinions..they have nothing to do with facts. > >=A0 =A0>=A0If you don't understand his language do you have ask someone to= translate you wath they say ? >=A0 =A0> > >=A0 =A0Yes I do...or I use a translation tool to at least get an idea of what >=A0 =A0was said. > >=A0 =A0>=A0For example i don't understand German language but i found always= someone to translate me what they say or to put news in german language. >=A0 =A0> > >=A0 =A0And your point is what? When AP made this posting on envolution.com >=A0 =A0there was an expectation that the international sites have at least one >=A0 =A0person who would translate and post to their support site. But >=A0 =A0unfortunatley instead of asking fro clarifications and explaination YOU >=A0 =A0went on a rampage and started spreading your FUD. > >=A0 =A0Well now there will be guidelines foe all International support sites= in >=A0 =A0the network on handling information and translations. And because YOU >=A0 =A0didnt come up with the idea I am sure many support site manager will= not >=A0 =A0want to continue being an Official support site. Thats OK too. There >=A0 =A0will be replacements if it comes to that. > >=A0 =A0>=A0Oups ...... in the top of your minds you have forgot to remember= German dev's(and they are a lot), Spanish dev's, Polish dev's, Belgium,= Moroc, Canada etc etc... =A0but i m sure nobody are declassed .. they be= simplement missed ......:)) >=A0 =A0> > >=A0 =A0You have no idea whats on the top of our minds...had you attended the >=A0 =A0meeting perhaps you would have. But unless you have a crystal ball you >=A0 =A0are only speculating. > >=A0 =A0>=A0And tell me Zoom, who give you right of delete news in envolution.com= ? > >=A0 =A0OK what news did I delete? I havn't deleted anything. If you are going >=A0 =A0to make accusations then at least be man enough to be specific. > >=A0 =A0>=A0I remember that you don't are PM and anyway nobody hear responsable of= envolution.com site ..... he is Sjah. >=A0 =A0> >=A0 =A0>=A0TiMax >=A0 =A0> > >=A0 =A0Are you speaking for Sjah? As far as I know Sjah can speak for himself. >=A0 =A0He attended the meeting I believe. You didn't. > >=A0 =A0Responsibilty for the envolution website, DNS, and domains are my >=A0 =A0responsibility. I pay for the hosting and provide the DNS etc. I didn't >=A0 =A0ask you to quit..and I didn't ask you to give up those >=A0 =A0responsibilities...you did it on your own and in order to ensure >=A0 =A0Envolution stays totally open development I asked you to transfer= thoese >=A0 =A0responsibilities to me. You agreed and did just that. So get over it >=A0 =A0already Max. > >=A0 =A0Zoom > > >=A0 =A0------------------------------------------------------- >=A0 =A0This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including >=A0 =A0Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. >=A0 =A0Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. >=A0= =A0http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/0= 1 >=A0 =A0_______________________________________________ >=A0 =A0Envolution-devel mailing list >=A0 =A0E...@li... >=A0 =A0https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel > >=A0 =A0__________ NOD32 1.471 (20030731) Information __________ > >=A0 =A0This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. >=A0 =A0http://www.nod32.com |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-03 04:40:35
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On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 22:57, TiMax wrote: > Do you have read all comments in italian language ? and in french language ? and in german language ? i think not ...... > I don't read every comment in the English language either, so whats your point? > Anyway yes, that is my opinions and you MUST respect that, so if you don't want to put my news online no problem for me, maybe for other people yes ... > I will not put any content on the website that comatains obvious false statements for anyone. > And you see also apathyboy agree is not a good idea to put this news online, and that is the problem, when AP put online his news he don't talk with nobody, he don't hear nobody WindMeUp, Capretta, Sjah other developers .. nobody > Only today maybe after some days news are online ...... > He talked with everyone who botherd to show up to the planned organizational meeting...you know the one YOU didn't show up for. AP posted his thoughts abouit the roadmap so that people could think about it and bring their questions inputs and concerns to the community during the meeting. It;s that simple. You didn't consult or talk to the community when you started a closed development email list only for certain envolution developers. Envolution was founded on the principles that development would always remain open. But took it upon yourself to ignore that and your agreement with the other three founders about keeping Envolution development open to everyone. I aim to keep Envolution open to all...not just your staff. If you would like to discuss this more let me know and I'll post your emails for all to see for themsleves. > Zoom so if you have good consideration of other languages can you tell me wath Italian, French and German comments tell you in respective support sites and in envoltuion.com site ? > Personally Max I know you have been busy stirring up trouble by telling lies and making misrepresentations based on your own perspectives and opinions..they have nothing to do with facts. > If you don't understand his language do you have ask someone to translate you wath they say ? > Yes I do...or I use a translation tool to at least get an idea of what was said. > For example i don't understand German language but i found always someone to translate me what they say or to put news in german language. > And your point is what? When AP made this posting on envolution.com there was an expectation that the international sites have at least one person who would translate and post to their support site. But unfortunatley instead of asking fro clarifications and explaination YOU went on a rampage and started spreading your FUD. Well now there will be guidelines foe all International support sites in the network on handling information and translations. And because YOU didnt come up with the idea I am sure many support site manager will not want to continue being an Official support site. Thats OK too. There will be replacements if it comes to that. > Oups ...... in the top of your minds you have forgot to remember German dev's(and they are a lot), Spanish dev's, Polish dev's, Belgium, Moroc, Canada etc etc... but i m sure nobody are declassed .. they be simplement missed ......:)) > You have no idea whats on the top of our minds...had you attended the meeting perhaps you would have. But unless you have a crystal ball you are only speculating. > And tell me Zoom, who give you right of delete news in envolution.com ? OK what news did I delete? I havn't deleted anything. If you are going to make accusations then at least be man enough to be specific. > I remember that you don't are PM and anyway nobody hear responsable of envolution.com site ..... he is Sjah. > > TiMax > > Are you speaking for Sjah? As far as I know Sjah can speak for himself. He attended the meeting I believe. You didn't. Responsibilty for the envolution website, DNS, and domains are my responsibility. I pay for the hosting and provide the DNS etc. I didn't ask you to quit..and I didn't ask you to give up those responsibilities...you did it on your own and in order to ensure Envolution stays totally open development I asked you to transfer thoese responsibilities to me. You agreed and did just that. So get over it already Max. Zoom |
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From: TiMax <ma...@em...> - 2003-08-03 04:36:20
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On 02 Aug 2003 23:21:10 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote: >=A0 =A0I don't have Italian friends, Polish friends, English friends...etc. I >=A0 =A0only have friends. It doesn't matter to me what their national origin= is >=A0 =A0to me. So in my eyes there is no need to separate the community based= on >=A0 =A0culture or nationality Sorry for you Zoom i have Polish, French, German, Italian, Canadian friends= and i m very happy of that, i respect all history, habitudes, and all= religions, but i think is important also to remark differences, because if= you are able to valorize all differences you are also able to receive all= advantages each difference can give you. So i m Italian but i m in Canada now, i m different from others Canadian= because i talk poor French language and i m Italian but my Canadian friends= appreciate me also because i m Italian and different and me also. i don't know for you but for me each differences is very great and important= for me. So for me their national origin is for me very important, and i m happy when= i can learn about different origin from me. Maybe that is the differences Zoom, but i don't know if you can understand. TiMax |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-03 04:21:45
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On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 23:03, TiMax wrote: > @Zoom i forgot to tell you that in Italian staff we are 34 dev's and 18 beta tester and not a couple of Italians > > Max > Perhaps you should re-read what I said cause I said only a couple Italians showed up to the meeting. YOu can have a staff of 5000 Italian developers...doesn't matter cause only two showed up! You should also know this Max...and Im sure you'll need to finds someone to translate it for you.....Envolution doesn't have Italian staff, German staff, Russian staff, Indiana staff, Mexican staff, English staff, Chinese staff....we only have staff members. You insistance on classifying everyone by their national origin is part of the problem..a problem you created by stratifying the community. I don't have Italian friends, Polish friends, English friends...etc. I only have friends. It doesn't matter to me what their national origin is to me. So in my eyes there is no need to separate the community based on culture or nationality. Zoom |
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From: TiMax <ma...@em...> - 2003-08-03 04:04:20
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On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:53:23 -0500, Eric Barr wrote: >=A0 =A0 I must >=A0 =A0agree that it was not the best idea to put my ideas in my introduction= news, >=A0 =A0but these ideas where meant only for concideration before the developer >=A0 =A0meeting Nice to read that AP, but sorry you have understand that after lot of days= of flames .... @Zoom i forgot to tell you that in Italian staff we are 34 dev's and 18 beta= tester and not a couple of Italians Max |
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From: TiMax <ma...@em...> - 2003-08-03 03:58:08
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Do you have read all comments in italian language ? and in french language ?= and in german language ? i think not ...... Anyway yes, that is my opinions and you MUST respect that, so if you don't= want to put my news online no problem for me, maybe for other people yes= ... And you see also apathyboy agree is not a good idea to put this news online,= and that is the problem, when AP put online his news he don't talk with= nobody, he don't hear nobody WindMeUp, Capretta, Sjah other developers ..= nobody Only today maybe after some days news are online ...... Zoom so if you have good consideration of other languages can you tell me= wath Italian, French and German comments tell you in respective support= sites and in envoltuion.com site ? If you don't understand his language do you have ask someone to translate= you wath they say ? For example i don't understand German language but i found always someone to= translate me what they say or to put news in german language. Oups ...... in the top of your minds you have forgot to remember German= dev's(and they are a lot), Spanish dev's, Polish dev's, Belgium, Moroc,= Canada etc etc... but i m sure nobody are declassed .. they be simplement= missed ......:)) And tell me Zoom, who give you right of delete news in envolution.com ? I remember that you don't are PM and anyway nobody hear responsable of= envolution.com site ..... he is Sjah. TiMax On 02 Aug 2003 22:22:59 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote: >=A0 =A0On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 20:25, Stefan K=C3=B6hler wrote: >=A0 =A0>=A0@Zoom: >=A0 =A0>=A0Now public on dev-list, because you don't answer my last email. >=A0 =A0>=A0Tell me please, where TiMax' article contains "factual inaccuracies= and >=A0 =A0>=A0fasle statements." >=A0 =A0>=A0What he said is the truth. > > >=A0 =A0<quote> >=A0 =A0... nobody has considered our Lead Developer, Doc Manager, and Support >=A0 =A0Manager... nobody asked all the staff members on what they were working >=A0 =A0on, which goals they reached, what they thinked etc. etc. more than= this >=A0 =A0all non English people, mainly Italian, French and German were >=A0 =A0immediately declassed. >=A0 =A0<end quote> > >=A0 =A0That is the factually inaccurate information! The entire community, not >=A0 =A0just those who were given a title by Max, we invited to attend the >=A0 =A0meeting and contribute their thoughts and ideas...I'm sorry but= decsions >=A0 =A0were made base don those who where thoughtful enough to show up. Guess >=A0 =A0who wasn't there besides you...Yeah thats right Max didn't show up >=A0 =A0either! So his claims/opinion that nobody other then English speakers >=A0 =A0were considered is bullshit...plain old bullshit. In fact there were >=A0 =A0non-english speakers there. Off the top of my head I can recall a >=A0 =A0Russian, a couple of Italians, and one from Mayalsia....so claiming= that >=A0 =A0non-English speakers were immediatley "declassed" is an outrageous lie! > >=A0 =A0This may very well be Max's opinion, but it certainly isn't fact! > >=A0 =A0Zoom > > >=A0 =A0------------------------------------------------------- >=A0 =A0This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including >=A0 =A0Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. >=A0 =A0Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. >=A0= =A0http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/0= 1 >=A0 =A0_______________________________________________ >=A0 =A0Envolution-devel mailing list >=A0 =A0E...@li... >=A0 =A0https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel > >=A0 =A0__________ NOD32 1.471 (20030731) Information __________ > >=A0 =A0This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. >=A0 =A0http://www.nod32.com |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-03 03:23:32
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On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 20:25, Stefan K=C3=B6hler wrote: > @Zoom: > Now public on dev-list, because you don't answer my last email. > Tell me please, where TiMax' article contains "factual inaccuracies and > fasle statements." > What he said is the truth. >=20 <quote> ... nobody has considered our Lead Developer, Doc Manager, and Support Manager... nobody asked all the staff members on what they were working on, which goals they reached, what they thinked etc. etc. more than this all non English people, mainly Italian, French and German were immediately declassed. <end quote> That is the factually inaccurate information! The entire community, not just those who were given a title by Max, we invited to attend the meeting and contribute their thoughts and ideas...I'm sorry but decsions were made base don those who where thoughtful enough to show up. Guess who wasn't there besides you...Yeah thats right Max didn't show up either! So his claims/opinion that nobody other then English speakers were considered is bullshit...plain old bullshit. In fact there were non-english speakers there. Off the top of my head I can recall a Russian, a couple of Italians, and one from Mayalsia....so claiming that non-English speakers were immediatley "declassed" is an outrageous lie!=20 This may very well be Max's opinion, but it certainly isn't fact! Zoom |
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From: Eric B. <apa...@xe...> - 2003-08-03 02:54:51
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Stefan, First thing I would like to discuss, nobody has removed you from the position of Lead Developer, that position is still yours to hold if you want it. Also, when TiMax took over as project manager there was a period of time for reorganization and restructuring wasn't there? So why is it a bad thing for there to be reorganization and restructuring this time? That does not seem fair. When new management comes into being there is always a time for reorganization and restructuring, and no changes at all have been made to the project yet, only new ideas presented. Changes will only come after discussion and agreement with the entire community. Now, I would like to address a few specific things in your email. "This seems to be over. You want to take eNvolution. But not with the staff members who entered eNvolution at TiMax era. You want to place new members on official functions." This is no longer the "TiMax" era, but it is also not the beginning of the "ApathyBoy" era either. The problem here is that this project is not about any one person, but about the entire community. No staff members have been replaced (other than TiMax) and everybody who held a position before I took over as Project Manager is invited to keep those positions. As far as your being removed from the Lead Developer list, I'm not sure exactly what you meant by this but I do know that we have turned off admin access on a lot of things only until we have found out who is staying and who is leaving. Once that has been cleared up all admin privledges will be turned back on for those who hold positions. This is only temporary and I hope that we get this cleared up during this week :) Also, I understand that you could not attend the meeting today and I hope that you were able to enjoy the day with your family :) We are working on some ideas for new ways to hold these meetings on the forums. This way the meetings can last for several days if needed so that more people can stop by to share their thoughts. If you have any suggestions to help us out here that would be great! I would also like to take a minute to talk about the "roadmap" situation with you as I know it has been the center of a lot of anger lately. I must agree that it was not the best idea to put my ideas in my introduction news, but these ideas where meant only for concideration before the developer meeting. I had the chance to talk with several people on the team today including Sjah who had written a very good article several days ago. We all decided that Envolution needs a roadmap, and that the current one is probably not the best one. *By current roadmap I mean the original roadmap, I have looked for a roadmap from the last 6 months but I haven't found one.* His idea was to create two documents, one would be the community vision that addresses the non technical(non coding) aspects and needs, the other would be a technical roadmap to achieve that vision. We will be asking the community for their input and to tell us what they need from our system, and then the developers will gather to discuss how these goals will be met. Before we can do any of that though we must get our Staff organized and all of the communities on the same page. I will be attempting to contact all the members of the current staff, but for those of you I do not contact please get ahold of me because I do not mean to forget anybody. I hope this clears some things up with you, if not please feel free to talk to me directly as I wish to work things out. Thanks, Eric Barr (a.k.a. ApathyBoy) Project Manager - Envolution PS. I also wish for all flame wars and anger to end here. If anybody has comments or concerns or does not understand something that might have happened or doesn't agree with something I said please just ask me about it. We will work through and discuss all matters openly. Thanks! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Köhler" <s.k...@pr...> To: <env...@li...> Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 8:25 PM Subject: [Envolution-devel] the future of eNvolution? @Zoom: Now public on dev-list, because you don't answer my last email. Tell me please, where TiMax' article contains "factual inaccuracies and fasle statements." What he said is the truth. A bit history: TiMax ask in the dev-list if someone can be Lead Developer, no answer. Some days later he ask again. Then I explained that I will do the job. After that TiMax informed the staff and the comunity about my new function. So I'm Lead Developer of eNvolution. And all agreed. Same with SupportManager and DocManager positions. And at this time there came no veto from. I think I don't need to talk about the roadmap again. Because our development which we starts had nothing to do with the old roadmap. We create things and modified parts of the code to make eNvo safer, faster and more professional, with some new features and functions. And that all, because the community ask for. This was (if you take a look on the roadmap) not the right way. But if this all happens - no veto from you, again. So for me, all founders accept our work and we do the right things. This seems to be over. You want to take eNvolution. But not with the staff members who entered eNvolution at TiMax era. You want to place new members on official functions. And you ask only one time for Project Manager. And then after 2 hours apathyboy was the new project manager. Nice, very nice. All following steps (transfering data, downtime, basic installation,etc.), the article and all bad other things that happend the last days, you managed alone without the staff members. This was not professional. Sorry. I told you more then 3 times, that I can help you with all the problems you rolled in. All you say was "Yes I need much help" but without saying where and what. As I can see now on eNvolution.com I am gradated. But I don't know. Why? What are the results of chat meeting today? I don't know. Why? And you know why I can't visit meeting today. I told it to all as comment. And Zoom, after our private mails where we discuss something internally (remember I told you that this should not be part of a public mailing list or as a comment of an article - I think that was fair), I got no answers or infos. The only result of this mailing was, that you delete me from LeadDeveloper List and I'm normal member now. That is your right. Nothing to say. But it would be nice if you can inform me about this step, isn't it? And then this mail on this list of AK (who is it?) who talk about the roadmap and we have no rights to change that. That's enough. One of our rule was to inform the community about new things are planned or new staff members are entered (note: Welcome new member as a "profile"). And AK seems to be a new staff member. You break our rules not we. And this rules were born since our reorganisation and restructure phase. But you don't ask us what is new and what you have to consider. Ok. If I'm no longer Lead Developer then there is no needing for you to tell me details. I don't want to know it. I'm normal member of eNvo.com And I would be only Webadmin of envolution.de Nothing else. Ok. Can you tell me please, as it continues now? Stefan aka WindMeUp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Kindley" <sc...@ki...> To: "Evolution-Dev-List" <env...@li...> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 1:10 AM Subject: Re: [Envolution-devel] Leaving eNvolution > On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 17:06, TiMax wrote: > > Sorry wrong thread > > I submited this news in envolution.com, please to add it in home page, thanks > > > > TiMax > > > > -------------------------- > > > > This short news is just to comunicate that I decided to go out from the active developement of eNvolution and definitively from the eNvolution project. > > I'm sorry to see that this eNvolution is not the one on with me and all the staff were working on... our vision discussed and approved is now cancelled... there wasn't respect of me, the staff and the all management... nobody has considered our Lead Developer, Doc Manager, and Support Manager... nobody asked all the staff members on what they were working on, which goals they reached, what they thinked etc. etc. more than this all non English people, mainly Italian, French and German were immediately declassed. > > > > I'm sorry at this point eNvolution is not more the one on which I hardly worked. > > > > I prefer to keep on my ideas and vision in my MaxDev project, working to expand and improve eNvolution, PostNuke, Oscommerce and many other softwares, to promote the Open Source even with commercial purposes, helped on this by all the international Staff members in full agreement and with real passion. > > > > I thank everybody sustained me with comments, mail, messages, etc. > > > > Regarding the eNvolution.it nothing is changed it will remain the Italian support site with all the community growth around it. > > > > TiMax > > MaxDev Staff > > www.maxdev.com > > > > I knew you were going to pull this Max. > > I am not going to publish this article when it contains factual > inaccuracies and fasle statements. > > You were notified well in advance of a meeting and YOU chose not to > attend. So don't give me the crap about your vision being cancelled, > changed or whatever. Envolution is larger than you and you didn't > respect Envoolution enough to grace us with your presence. > > Resubmit news that is factual and Ill publish it...other than that have > a great day! > > Zoom > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > _______________________________________________ > Envolution-devel mailing list > Env...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 _______________________________________________ Envolution-devel mailing list Env...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel |
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From: <s.k...@pr...> - 2003-08-03 01:25:32
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@Zoom: Now public on dev-list, because you don't answer my last email. Tell me please, where TiMax' article contains "factual inaccuracies and fasle statements." What he said is the truth. A bit history: TiMax ask in the dev-list if someone can be Lead Developer, no answer. Some days later he ask again. Then I explained that I will do the job. After that TiMax informed the staff and the comunity about my new function. So I'm Lead Developer of eNvolution. And all agreed. Same with SupportManager and DocManager positions. And at this time there came no veto from. I think I don't need to talk about the roadmap again. Because our development which we starts had nothing to do with the old roadmap. We create things and modified parts of the code to make eNvo safer, faster and more professional, with some new features and functions. And that all, because the community ask for. This was (if you take a look on the roadmap) not the right way. But if this all happens - no veto from you, again. So for me, all founders accept our work and we do the right things. This seems to be over. You want to take eNvolution. But not with the staff members who entered eNvolution at TiMax era. You want to place new members on official functions. And you ask only one time for Project Manager. And then after 2 hours apathyboy was the new project manager. Nice, very nice. All following steps (transfering data, downtime, basic installation,etc.), the article and all bad other things that happend the last days, you managed alone without the staff members. This was not professional. Sorry. I told you more then 3 times, that I can help you with all the problems you rolled in. All you say was "Yes I need much help" but without saying where and what. As I can see now on eNvolution.com I am gradated. But I don't know. Why? What are the results of chat meeting today? I don't know. Why? And you know why I can't visit meeting today. I told it to all as comment. And Zoom, after our private mails where we discuss something internally (remember I told you that this should not be part of a public mailing list or as a comment of an article - I think that was fair), I got no answers or infos. The only result of this mailing was, that you delete me from LeadDeveloper List and I'm normal member now. That is your right. Nothing to say. But it would be nice if you can inform me about this step, isn't it? And then this mail on this list of AK (who is it?) who talk about the roadmap and we have no rights to change that. That's enough. One of our rule was to inform the community about new things are planned or new staff members are entered (note: Welcome new member as a "profile"). And AK seems to be a new staff member. You break our rules not we. And this rules were born since our reorganisation and restructure phase. But you don't ask us what is new and what you have to consider. Ok. If I'm no longer Lead Developer then there is no needing for you to tell me details. I don't want to know it. I'm normal member of eNvo.com And I would be only Webadmin of envolution.de Nothing else. Ok. Can you tell me please, as it continues now? Stefan aka WindMeUp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Kindley" <sc...@ki...> To: "Evolution-Dev-List" <env...@li...> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 1:10 AM Subject: Re: [Envolution-devel] Leaving eNvolution > On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 17:06, TiMax wrote: > > Sorry wrong thread > > I submited this news in envolution.com, please to add it in home page, thanks > > > > TiMax > > > > -------------------------- > > > > This short news is just to comunicate that I decided to go out from the active developement of eNvolution and definitively from the eNvolution project. > > I'm sorry to see that this eNvolution is not the one on with me and all the staff were working on... our vision discussed and approved is now cancelled... there wasn't respect of me, the staff and the all management... nobody has considered our Lead Developer, Doc Manager, and Support Manager... nobody asked all the staff members on what they were working on, which goals they reached, what they thinked etc. etc. more than this all non English people, mainly Italian, French and German were immediately declassed. > > > > I'm sorry at this point eNvolution is not more the one on which I hardly worked. > > > > I prefer to keep on my ideas and vision in my MaxDev project, working to expand and improve eNvolution, PostNuke, Oscommerce and many other softwares, to promote the Open Source even with commercial purposes, helped on this by all the international Staff members in full agreement and with real passion. > > > > I thank everybody sustained me with comments, mail, messages, etc. > > > > Regarding the eNvolution.it nothing is changed it will remain the Italian support site with all the community growth around it. > > > > TiMax > > MaxDev Staff > > www.maxdev.com > > > > I knew you were going to pull this Max. > > I am not going to publish this article when it contains factual > inaccuracies and fasle statements. > > You were notified well in advance of a meeting and YOU chose not to > attend. So don't give me the crap about your vision being cancelled, > changed or whatever. Envolution is larger than you and you didn't > respect Envoolution enough to grace us with your presence. > > Resubmit news that is factual and Ill publish it...other than that have > a great day! > > Zoom > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > _______________________________________________ > Envolution-devel mailing list > Env...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel |
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From: putino <pu...@pu...> - 2003-08-03 00:28:27
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I consider this only in a way: censorship. You could have posted the news and commented. You have decided to not make this. Then i say: this is real censorship. Nothing of personal, it's my opinion, and I'm free to say this. Bye, putino Scott Kindley Scrive: > On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 17:06, TiMax wrote: >> Sorry wrong thread >> I submited this news in envolution.com, please to add it in home page, thanks >> >> TiMax >> >> -------------------------- >> >> This short news is just to comunicate that I decided to go out from the active developement of eNvolution and definitively from the eNvolution project. >> I'm sorry to see that this eNvolution is not the one on with me and all the staff were working on... our vision discussed and approved is now cancelled... there wasn't respect of me, the staff and the all management... nobody has considered our Lead Developer, Doc Manager, and Support Manager... nobody asked all the staff members on what they were working on, which goals they reached, what they thinked etc. etc. more than this all non English people, mainly Italian, French and German were immediately declassed. >> >> I'm sorry at this point eNvolution is not more the one on which I hardly worked. >> >> I prefer to keep on my ideas and vision in my MaxDev project, working to expand and improve eNvolution, PostNuke, Oscommerce and many other softwares, to promote the Open Source even with commercial purposes, helped on this by all the international Staff members in full agreement and with real passion. >> >> I thank everybody sustained me with comments, mail, messages, etc. >> >> Regarding the eNvolution.it nothing is changed it will remain the Italian support site with all the community growth around it. >> >> TiMax >> MaxDev Staff >> www.maxdev.com >> > > I knew you were going to pull this Max. > > I am not going to publish this article when it contains factual > inaccuracies and fasle statements. > > You were notified well in advance of a meeting and YOU chose not to > attend. So don't give me the crap about your vision being cancelled, > changed or whatever. Envolution is larger than you and you didn't > respect Envoolution enough to grace us with your presence. > > Resubmit news that is factual and Ill publish it...other than that have > a great day! > > Zoom > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100003ave/direct;at.aspnet_072303_01/01 > _______________________________________________ > Envolution-devel mailing list > Env...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/envolution-devel |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-02 23:11:35
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On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 17:06, TiMax wrote: > Sorry wrong thread > I submited this news in envolution.com, please to add it in home page, thanks > > TiMax > > -------------------------- > > This short news is just to comunicate that I decided to go out from the active developement of eNvolution and definitively from the eNvolution project. > I'm sorry to see that this eNvolution is not the one on with me and all the staff were working on... our vision discussed and approved is now cancelled... there wasn't respect of me, the staff and the all management... nobody has considered our Lead Developer, Doc Manager, and Support Manager... nobody asked all the staff members on what they were working on, which goals they reached, what they thinked etc. etc. more than this all non English people, mainly Italian, French and German were immediately declassed. > > I'm sorry at this point eNvolution is not more the one on which I hardly worked. > > I prefer to keep on my ideas and vision in my MaxDev project, working to expand and improve eNvolution, PostNuke, Oscommerce and many other softwares, to promote the Open Source even with commercial purposes, helped on this by all the international Staff members in full agreement and with real passion. > > I thank everybody sustained me with comments, mail, messages, etc. > > Regarding the eNvolution.it nothing is changed it will remain the Italian support site with all the community growth around it. > > TiMax > MaxDev Staff > www.maxdev.com > I knew you were going to pull this Max. I am not going to publish this article when it contains factual inaccuracies and fasle statements. You were notified well in advance of a meeting and YOU chose not to attend. So don't give me the crap about your vision being cancelled, changed or whatever. Envolution is larger than you and you didn't respect Envoolution enough to grace us with your presence. Resubmit news that is factual and Ill publish it...other than that have a great day! Zoom |
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From: TiMax <ma...@em...> - 2003-08-02 22:07:18
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Sorry wrong thread I submited this news in envolution.com, please to add it in home page,= thanks TiMax -------------------------- This short news is just to comunicate that I decided to go out from the= active developement of eNvolution and definitively from the eNvolution= project. I'm sorry to see that this eNvolution is not the one on with me and all the= staff were working on... our vision discussed and approved is now= cancelled... there wasn't respect of me, the staff and the all= management... nobody has considered our Lead Developer, Doc Manager, and= Support Manager... nobody asked all the staff members on what they were= working on, which goals they reached, what they thinked etc. etc. more than= this all non English people, mainly Italian, French and German were= immediately declassed. I'm sorry at this point eNvolution is not more the one on which I hardly= worked. I prefer to keep on my ideas and vision in my MaxDev project, working to= expand and improve eNvolution, PostNuke, Oscommerce and many other= softwares, to promote the Open Source even with commercial purposes, helped= on this by all the international Staff members in full agreement and with= real passion. I thank everybody sustained me with comments, mail, messages, etc. Regarding the eNvolution.it nothing is changed it will remain the Italian= support site with all the community growth around it. TiMax MaxDev Staff www.maxdev.com |
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From: TiMax <ma...@em...> - 2003-08-02 21:08:03
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I submited this news in envolution.com, please to add it in home page,= thanks TiMax -------------------------- This short news is just to comunicate that I decided to go out from the= active developement of eNvolution and definitively from the eNvolution= project. I'm sorry to see that this eNvolution is not the one on with me and all the= staff were working on... our vision discussed and approved is now= cancelled... there wasn't respect of me, the staff and the all= management... nobody has considered our Lead Developer, Doc Manager, and= Support Manager... nobody asked all the staff members on what they were= working on, which goals they reached, what they thinked etc. etc. more than= this all non English people, mainly Italian, French and German were= immediately declassed. I'm sorry at this point eNvolution is not more the one on which I hardly= worked. I prefer to keep on my ideas and vision in my MaxDev project, working to= expand and improve eNvolution, PostNuke, Oscommerce and many other= softwares, to promote the Open Source even with commercial purposes, helped= on this by all the international Staff members in full agreement and with= real passion. I thank everybody sustained me with comments, mail, messages, etc. Regarding the eNvolution.it nothing is changed it will remain the Italian= support site with all the community growth around it. TiMax MaxDev Staff www.maxdev.com |
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