chiphpug-discuss — Discussions of PHP-related topics among members of the Chicago PHP User's Group.

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] good article

[Arlo L. <ar...@ar...>]

Hi folks,

> http://www.railsenvy.com/2007/8/24/rails-vs-php

Wow, I love PHP, but I'd never go so far as to produce a video about it!
(smile)

Seriously, though, does anyone else feel like we're hearing too much polemic
about the tools of our trade, as if it's the tools themselves and not the
skills and experience we apply to them that make us good developers?

-Arlo 

_______________________________

Arlo Leach
773.769.6106
http://arlomedia.com

Make friends with your computer
http://compyschool.com

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] DB Class workflow question

[Peter H. <ph...@ma...>]

On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 11:56:04PM -0500, jsWalter wrote:
> I'm rolling my own little DB class (pls, I don't need to hear about how
> wonder this or that class is, thank you, I've reading over 2 dozen such
> libaries) and I have a question to this group...

This, right here, is why I like reinventing wheels. You'll find yourself
making design decisions that you initially didn't even notice that
library creators had made. You gain a deeper understanding of the problem.

(And then when I have a deep understanding I almost always throw away my
code and make an now-informed choice of libraries.)


> On the other, would it be logical for the DB class to take a whack at the
> data set and to make sure each field is the data type that the database is
> expecting? Or should the developer code that as well?

Give the developer the raw data, exactly as it came in from the user,
otherwise you'll make some really useful non-reversable transformation
that, six months from now, you realize is a big pain for some code
you're adding.

When the developer calls the API again to save to the database, that's
where your code should step in to make sure that integer fields are not
getting passed strings and so on. Let the API escape data and pass it to
the database, then capture the database's errors and raise meaningful
exceptions to the developer. This way you prevent SQL injection and
don't have to reinvent all the checking the database does.

--
Peter Harkins  -  http://push.cx  -  http://NearbyGamers.com

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] good article

[Peter H. <ph...@ma...>]

On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 10:27:50AM -0500, Jason Rexilius wrote:
> Actually, there is a small grain of truth to that which the article 
> suggests, and that is RoR is a framework which has a proscribed way of 
> doing things and has a set view of the world.  Breaking out of this is 
> not easy.

I think the article has two vital points and no others.

First: Learn everything, even stuff you won't directly use, because
it'll teach you about the stuff you do use.

Second: Never underestimate the cost of integrating with existing
company assets, both the obvious physical ones but also the skillsets
people have.


> Its not a great comparison to make as RoR is a framework and PHP is a 
> language.  It would be more valid to compare RoR with Cake.

http://www.railsenvy.com/2007/8/24/rails-vs-php

--
Peter Harkins  -  http://push.cx  -  http://NearbyGamers.com

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] DB Class workflow question

[Jason R. <ja...@ho...>]

As a potential counter to the prepared statement path, one problem is 
that mysqli precludes persistent connections.

In certain large scale architectures persistent connections have a big 
benefit.  In the hands of developers that dont understand the entire 
system architecture and/or don't have control over all aspects of it 
(any shared hosting environment for example), prepared statements can be 
harmful.

Precluding their use just for data input validation is throwing out a 
useful tool in the scaling toolbox that you may need in the future. 
That matters only if their is a possibility that you will need massive 
scale in this DB handler.

One approach that I suggest is keeping user input validation near its 
input handler and keeping DB protection minimal (i.e. something like 
escape).

The reason being that you want both business logic validation (i.e. 
email address can't be NULL here) and data field validation (email 
address can't contain the '#' char) to be handled consistently and 
leverage any common user error dialogs or exception handling routines 
correctly.  This is squarely in the user-facing application logic 
portion and not in your data persistence layer (unless you are an Orcale 
monkey and then half your app logic is in your stored procedures and 
triggers).





Neil Young wrote:
> I think prepared statements are the best way to go, assuming that Walter is
> using MySQL.  Walter, if you are using another database that doesn't support
> prepared statements, such as MS SQL Server, then my approach would be to
> minimally do data type validation on step 3 - this is also a location that
> you could ensure other kinds of data integrity if you so choose.
> 
> Neil
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: chi...@li...
> [mailto:chi...@li...] On Behalf Of Larry
> Garfield
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:28 AM
> To: chi...@li...
> Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] DB Class workflow question
> 
> Enter the magic of prepared statements.  I personally prefer to use PDO,
> since 
> I like it's interface better than MySQLi's and it supports both named and 
> unnamed parameters.
> 
> http://www.php.net/pdo
> 
> It requires PHP 5.1 or later.  If you're using an earlier version of PHP,
> you 
> need to be smacked because anything older than that is dead and the funeral 
> is in process:
> 
> http://gophp5.org/
> http://www.php.net/index.php#2007-07-13-1
> 
> Note that if you're using a database other than MySQL, you'll run into some 
> field types that still need special handling.  Most notable is LOBs in
> Oracle 
> and DB2, since those databases still think it's 1988.
> 
> On Wednesday 03 October 2007, jsWalter wrote:
>> I'm rolling my own little DB class (pls, I don't need to hear about how
>> wonder this or that class is, thank you, I've reading over 2 dozen such
>> libaries) and I have a question to this group...
>>
>> Workflow:
>>  1) submit data form
>>  2) pull data from POST
>>  3) "clean" data
>>  4) update record
>>
>> Now, my question deals with step 3.
>>
>> On one hand, the cleansing of the data needs to be done by the developer.
>>
>> On the other, would it be logical for the DB class to take a whack at the
>> data set and to make sure each field is the data type that the database is
>> expecting? Or should the developer code that as well?
>>
>> Ideas?
>>
>> walter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ====================================================
>> Taking it to the next level.
>>    web.torres.ws/dev/php/walters_way
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
>> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
>> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
>> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
>> chi...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> 
> 

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] DB Class workflow question

[Neil Y. <ny...@as...>]

I think prepared statements are the best way to go, assuming that Walter =
is
using MySQL.  Walter, if you are using another database that doesn't =
support
prepared statements, such as MS SQL Server, then my approach would be to
minimally do data type validation on step 3 - this is also a location =
that
you could ensure other kinds of data integrity if you so choose.

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: chi...@li...
[mailto:chi...@li...] On Behalf Of =
Larry
Garfield
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:28 AM
To: chi...@li...
Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] DB Class workflow question

Enter the magic of prepared statements.  I personally prefer to use PDO,
since=20
I like it's interface better than MySQLi's and it supports both named =
and=20
unnamed parameters.

http://www.php.net/pdo

It requires PHP 5.1 or later.  If you're using an earlier version of =
PHP,
you=20
need to be smacked because anything older than that is dead and the =
funeral=20
is in process:

http://gophp5.org/
http://www.php.net/index.php#2007-07-13-1

Note that if you're using a database other than MySQL, you'll run into =
some=20
field types that still need special handling.  Most notable is LOBs in
Oracle=20
and DB2, since those databases still think it's 1988.

On Wednesday 03 October 2007, jsWalter wrote:
> I'm rolling my own little DB class (pls, I don't need to hear about =
how
> wonder this or that class is, thank you, I've reading over 2 dozen =
such
> libaries) and I have a question to this group...
>
> Workflow:
>  1) submit data form
>  2) pull data from POST
>  3) "clean" data
>  4) update record
>
> Now, my question deals with step 3.
>
> On one hand, the cleansing of the data needs to be done by the =
developer.
>
> On the other, would it be logical for the DB class to take a whack at =
the
> data set and to make sure each field is the data type that the =
database is
> expecting? Or should the developer code that as well?
>
> Ideas?
>
> walter
>
>
>
>
> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
> Taking it to the next level.
>    web.torres.ws/dev/php/walters_way
>
>
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a =
browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss


--=20
Larry Garfield			AIM: LOLG42
la...@ga...		ICQ: 6817012

"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of=20
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an =
idea,=20
which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to=20
himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the =
possession

of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it."  -- =
Thomas=20
Jefferson

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

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Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
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_______________________________________________
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Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] DB Class workflow question

[Anacreo <an...@gm...>]

Hmm that's a tricky one Walter... it depends on what the intention is of
your class?  Say I build a logging class, I'll generally throw in options
such as "autodelete" (delete the physical log file on destruct), "echowrite"
(write to stdout on log write), "htmllog" (store the log in a buffer as
html), "bufferlog" (buffer the log)...  anyhow I digress my point is if you
want to write a nice class with handy dandy features that is re-useable
(even by just you)... make them optionable.

So I see value in writing your own wrapper DB class (I'd still incorporate
the PDO library or similar into yours).  So my options might be:

datatypes_enforce
datatypes_cache = &somesort of cookied variable (or possibly a path to a
datafile if you'd rather have your class manage it in that way)

so some pseudo code might be:

...
$safedb = new safedb();
$safedb->datatypes_enforce = true;
...

I would point out caching the data types as you will need to do a query
before doing your select if you don't.  So if I have some sort of server
side cookie sessions going I may store some tables datatypes there, this can
significantly speed up your site.

In the past I've also used mapping tables with regex for a situation like
this as well:
$safedb->validate['tablename']['column'] = '/^[0-9+/()- ]*$/';
or
$safedb->format['tablename']['column'] = 's/\s+//g';

The one bad/positive to this is that you might prefer to pass your data as
an associative array instead of a SQL statement, ie:
set $nugget['user'] = array(
  'user' => $user,
  'passwd' => "crypt(" . $pass . ")"
);
$result = $safedb->write($nugget)

Not sure if this was the kind of feedback you're looking for.

On 10/3/07, jsWalter <jsW...@to...> wrote:
>
>
> I'm rolling my own little DB class (pls, I don't need to hear about how
> wonder this or that class is, thank you, I've reading over 2 dozen such
> libaries) and I have a question to this group...
>
> Workflow:
> 1) submit data form
> 2) pull data from POST
> 3) "clean" data
> 4) update record
>
> Now, my question deals with step 3.
>
> On one hand, the cleansing of the data needs to be done by the developer.
>
> On the other, would it be logical for the DB class to take a whack at the
> data set and to make sure each field is the data type that the database is
> expecting? Or should the developer code that as well?
>
> Ideas?
>
> walter
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> Taking it to the next level.
>    web.torres.ws/dev/php/walters_way
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] DB Class workflow question

[Larry G. <la...@ga...>]

Enter the magic of prepared statements.  I personally prefer to use PDO, since 
I like it's interface better than MySQLi's and it supports both named and 
unnamed parameters.

http://www.php.net/pdo

It requires PHP 5.1 or later.  If you're using an earlier version of PHP, you 
need to be smacked because anything older than that is dead and the funeral 
is in process:

http://gophp5.org/
http://www.php.net/index.php#2007-07-13-1

Note that if you're using a database other than MySQL, you'll run into some 
field types that still need special handling.  Most notable is LOBs in Oracle 
and DB2, since those databases still think it's 1988.

On Wednesday 03 October 2007, jsWalter wrote:
> I'm rolling my own little DB class (pls, I don't need to hear about how
> wonder this or that class is, thank you, I've reading over 2 dozen such
> libaries) and I have a question to this group...
>
> Workflow:
>  1) submit data form
>  2) pull data from POST
>  3) "clean" data
>  4) update record
>
> Now, my question deals with step 3.
>
> On one hand, the cleansing of the data needs to be done by the developer.
>
> On the other, would it be logical for the DB class to take a whack at the
> data set and to make sure each field is the data type that the database is
> expecting? Or should the developer code that as well?
>
> Ideas?
>
> walter
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> Taking it to the next level.
>    web.torres.ws/dev/php/walters_way
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss


-- 
Larry Garfield			AIM: LOLG42
la...@ga...		ICQ: 6817012

"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of 
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, 
which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to 
himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession 
of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it."  -- Thomas 
Jefferson

[chiPHPug-discuss] DB Class workflow question

[jsWalter <jsW...@to...>]

I'm rolling my own little DB class (pls, I don't need to hear about how
wonder this or that class is, thank you, I've reading over 2 dozen such
libaries) and I have a question to this group...

Workflow:
 1) submit data form
 2) pull data from POST
 3) "clean" data
 4) update record

Now, my question deals with step 3.

On one hand, the cleansing of the data needs to be done by the developer.

On the other, would it be logical for the DB class to take a whack at the
data set and to make sure each field is the data type that the database is
expecting? Or should the developer code that as well?

Ideas?

walter




====================================================
Taking it to the next level.
   web.torres.ws/dev/php/walters_way

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

[Benjamin H. <ben...@gm...>]

Its not worth getting into a flamewar, they can get quite emotionally
charged!  For reasons I'm not exactly sure why, I've seen major eruptions
taking place across the internet lately over how one language or web
framework is better than the others.  Its interesting, and there are some
valid points that are made.  But I remember having read this article a few
years ago, and because of it, dismiss these discussions as being rather
petty.

As programmers we should have better problems to solve than which language
to use (though my patience is personally wearing quite thin for Java as my
employer is currently using JVM 1.3 which was released circa 2000).  There
are many that are used for developing web application solutions, and each do
have idiosyncrasies, some are pros for certain problems, some are cons.

Ultimately, there are few reasons why one technology is so vastly better
than the other alternatives (especially if the application in question is
already functioning in one of these "inferior" alternative languages) that
you have no choice but to use the "superior" language.  Sure in Python, the
philosophy is that if the functionality you're trying to implement is
getting complex, you're probably doing it the wrong way.  And in Ruby on
Rails, learning and adopting the convention of the "rails way" can save you
time and headaches (but don't dare deviate from this convention, which you
must break in certain programming problems negating the benefits of the
framework).  This is one way to not shoot yourself in the foot as a
programmer, and it is a handy characteristic of Python.  You can implement
coding practices, standards and methodologies that address this issue in
other languages or environments.  And sure, in PHP the comparison operators
might not be intuitive or the most elegant, or the interpreter have some
shortcomings, or version 5 might not be compatible with version 4, or the
database functions not be consistent between engines though these
shortcomings does not preclude a programmer from developing nifty solutions
within PHP.  There are plenty of examples of good software and well designed
websites which rely on PHP.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

Also, a more prudent approach to the "one language vs another", if that is
truly the question that must be answered, is the programming language
popularity index.  It stands to reason that between Python and PHP, PHP will
arguably be easier to attract contributors due to the community of abled PHP
programmers being larger!  Same with Ruby/RoR.

http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

That being said, I think using C for web development is a bad idea.

Also and on topic, SitePoint recently published the results of their survey
"The State of Web Development 2006/2007"  It is very interesting, some of
the methodology I question, but a great overview of what people are doing.
It does show an overwhelming large base of PHP developers of their sample
group.

Ben

On 10/1/07, Steven <coo...@ya...> wrote:
>
> This art hosting site that I'm a member of has started a topic on their
> forums announcing that they're going to be redesigning their entire site
> from scratch and that they're looking for volunteers, whether it be coding,
> beta testing, whatever. The current head programmer has decided that they're
> going to do it in Python using the Pylons and SQLAlchemy frameworks.
> Whatever those are. I tried reading some of the Pylons framework's website
> and couldn't understand what the heck they were talking about.
>
> Of course, someone decides to step in and mention that it could simply be
> done in PHP, but much to my irritation, that sparks a debate on the verge of
> a flame war in which every programming staff member of that site bashes PHP
> and considers it a horrible language that "resists being written nicely".
> And since they're so close-minded about it, I of course decide to step in:
> http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=12643&pid=218320#pid218320
> (Yes, it's furaffinity. *chuckles*)
>
> What I find strangest is that these programming staff members seem to know
> infinitely more than I do about programming. Yet they are so close-minded on
> PHP that they'll re-write their entire website and forum from the ground up
> using frameworks and a language that's more for PC programming rather than
> in a language designed for the web?
>
> This is confusing. How can someone become as knowledgeable in programming
> as they apparently are yet not see how good PHP is for web things? Do they
> see something I don't?
>
> I'm beginning to wonder if PHP has any merit at all. What does PHP have
> that other languages doesn't that makes it worth using. Does PHP even have
> any advantages to other languages?
>
> You guys are probably the closest to a PHP authority that I have easy
> access to, so I pose the above question to you guys. Reinforce my view of my
> 'native' language being a good one. Or at least give me some grounds to
> stand on should I need to defend PHP in a debate like the one I mentioned
> above.
>
> ~Amaroq Wolf
>
>
>
>
>
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user
> panel and lay it on us.
> http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

[Arlo L. <ar...@ar...>]

Hello,

> I'm beginning to wonder if PHP has any merit at all. What does PHP have that
> other languages doesn't that makes it worth using. Does PHP even have any
> advantages to other languages?

Compared to other languages and authoring tools I've used, and compared to
pre-built systems I've tried to customize, building from scratch with PHP
just works. It's so straightforward, the documentation is so good, and
online examples are so plentiful, that I feel productive all the time. With
other technologies, I'm always hitting dead ends, getting frustrated, and
pulling out my hair. This isn't very objective or quantifiable, but it's a
palpable difference for me.

I've been using PHP for seven years, so I know it better than other tools,
but I felt that way from the beginning ... it just works and I can get stuff
done. At the same time, I haven't outgrown it and I'm always learning new
things that it can do.

I keep seeing all these new technologies coming along, but with my personal
code library and Subversion I seem to have everything I need. The main
advantage the newer tools seem to offer is greater efficiency, but I don't
feel inefficient now, and I'm very sensitive to using time well. When I use
other tools, I do spend LOTS of time trying to get around them when
something goes wrong.

I guess the other advantage the newer tools offer is to somehow promote
better programming practices. But I believe good programming is a function
of the programmer, not the language or tool. I'm pretty sure an experienced,
disciplined programmer can build a better project with basic tools than an
undisciplined or inexperienced programmer with the hot new technology. You
can't buy good programming practices (or download them from an open-source
project)!

Cheers,
-Arlo

_______________________________

Arlo Leach
773.769.6106
http://arlomedia.com

Make friends with your computer
http://compyschool.com

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

[Anacreo <an...@gm...>]

I'm kind of afraid of posting first as the bashing can come... but as has
been discussed on this forum almost every language has its place.  For
instance for this PDF flow that I'm doing I'm using bourne scripts, PHP
scripts, and Perl scripts.  They each have their place.  If I want to parse
an XML file and do a bunch of business logic (using large memory arrays) I
choose PHP.  If I want to edit 200mb+ files in a stream binary safe and have
them go out to multiple files I use Perl, and if I just need simple shell
scripts to glue it all together I use bourne.

Where does Python fit into this?  I don't know.  I have found PHP code to be
more readable then Python scripts, but that could just be the author.  PHP
code should be faster but startup could take longer -- Python should have a
smaller engine.  Python should be easier to embed like Tcl, so it gets a lot
more traction as an embedded scripting language.  I've seen Python used in
lots of control frameworks so it would probably be a good way to replace
bourne.

I also seriously doubt that Python has any where near the number of built in
"options" as PHP that make PHP a swiss army knife.  Perl's power comes from
its convenience features which makes it perfect for somethings (quck and
dirty) and horrible for others (large code base projects).

That's my 2 cents, let the bashing fly.

Alec

On 10/1/07, Steven <coo...@ya... > wrote:
>
> This art hosting site that I'm a member of has started a topic on their
> forums announcing that they're going to be redesigning their entire site
> from scratch and that they're looking for volunteers, whether it be coding,
> beta testing, whatever. The current head programmer has decided that they're
> going to do it in Python using the Pylons and SQLAlchemy frameworks.
> Whatever those are. I tried reading some of the Pylons framework's website
> and couldn't understand what the heck they were talking about.
>
> Of course, someone decides to step in and mention that it could simply be
> done in PHP, but much to my irritation, that sparks a debate on the verge of
> a flame war in which every programming staff member of that site bashes PHP
> and considers it a horrible language that "resists being written nicely".
> And since they're so close-minded about it, I of course decide to step in:
> http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=12643&pid=218320#pid218320
> (Yes, it's furaffinity. *chuckles*)
>
> What I find strangest is that these programming staff members seem to know
> infinitely more than I do about programming. Yet they are so close-minded on
> PHP that they'll re-write their entire website and forum from the ground up
> using frameworks and a language that's more for PC programming rather than
> in a language designed for the web?
>
> This is confusing. How can someone become as knowledgeable in programming
> as they apparently are yet not see how good PHP is for web things? Do they
> see something I don't?
>
> I'm beginning to wonder if PHP has any merit at all. What does PHP have
> that other languages doesn't that makes it worth using. Does PHP even have
> any advantages to other languages?
>
> You guys are probably the closest to a PHP authority that I have easy
> access to, so I pose the above question to you guys. Reinforce my view of my
> 'native' language being a good one. Or at least give me some grounds to
> stand on should I need to defend PHP in a debate like the one I mentioned
> above.
>
> ~Amaroq Wolf
>
>
>
>
>
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user
> panel and lay it on us.
> http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

[Neil Y. <ny...@as...>]

In my experience many programmers' preferences for which language is =
like a
religion.  There are zealots and fanatics of nearly every language you =
can
find and Python is one that draws a fanatical following.  Often the =
language
that is prominent for similar tasks gets their disdain.  That is why you
often see Ruby on Rails, Python, and to a lesser extent Java supporters
attacking PHP. =20

As for some of PHP's merits, it is an easy to use web scripting language
supported on nearly every server platform available and is well =
integrated
with Apache and MySQL.  It tends to run fast with little overhead, so it
scales well, even on mediocre hardware.  It shares a lot of its basic =
syntax
with C and Java, which makes it easy for programmers to transition to.  =
It
has excellent documentation and a large user community to look to for =
help.

But really, the choice of a language should be determined by what works =
best
for the project, the skills of the programmers available, and what kind =
of
integration it will have with existing code.  Python may be a better =
choice
for their project if that is the language that their core group of
developers is comfortable with and has a framework that serves them =
well.

Neil




-----Original Message-----
From: chi...@li...
[mailto:chi...@li...] On Behalf Of =
Steven
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 2:15 PM
To: chi...@li...
Subject: [chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

This art hosting site that I'm a member of has started a topic on their
forums announcing that they're going to be redesigning their entire site
from scratch and that they're looking for volunteers, whether it be =
coding,
beta testing, whatever. The current head programmer has decided that =
they're
going to do it in Python using the Pylons and SQLAlchemy frameworks.
Whatever those are. I tried reading some of the Pylons framework's =
website
and couldn't understand what the heck they were talking about.

Of course, someone decides to step in and mention that it could simply =
be
done in PHP, but much to my irritation, that sparks a debate on the =
verge of
a flame war in which every programming staff member of that site bashes =
PHP
and considers it a horrible language that "resists being written =
nicely".
And since they're so close-minded about it, I of course decide to step =
in:
http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=3D12643&pid=3D218320#=
pid2183
20
(Yes, it's furaffinity. *chuckles*)

What I find strangest is that these programming staff members seem to =
know
infinitely more than I do about programming. Yet they are so =
close-minded on
PHP that they'll re-write their entire website and forum from the ground =
up
using frameworks and a language that's more for PC programming rather =
than
in a language designed for the web?

This is confusing. How can someone become as knowledgeable in =
programming as
they apparently are yet not see how good PHP is for web things? Do they =
see
something I don't?

I'm beginning to wonder if PHP has any merit at all. What does PHP have =
that
other languages doesn't that makes it worth using. Does PHP even have =
any
advantages to other languages?

You guys are probably the closest to a PHP authority that I have easy =
access
to, so I pose the above question to you guys. Reinforce my view of my
'native' language being a good one. Or at least give me some grounds to
stand on should I need to defend PHP in a debate like the one I =
mentioned
above.
=20
~Amaroq Wolf




=20
_________________________________________________________________________=
___
________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user =
panel
and lay it on us.
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=3D7=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
chi...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss

[chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

[Steven <coo...@ya...>]

This art hosting site that I'm a member of has started a topic on their for=
ums announcing that they're going to be redesigning their entire site from =
scratch and that they're looking for volunteers, whether it be coding, beta=
 testing, whatever. The current head programmer has decided that they're go=
ing to do it in Python using the Pylons and SQLAlchemy frameworks. Whatever=
 those are. I tried reading some of the Pylons framework's website and coul=
dn't understand what the heck they were talking about.=0A=0AOf course, some=
one decides to step in and mention that it could simply be done in PHP, but=
 much to my irritation, that sparks a debate on the verge of a flame war in=
 which every programming staff member of that site bashes PHP and considers=
 it a horrible language that "resists being written nicely". And since they=
're so close-minded about it, I of course decide to step in: http://www.fur=
affinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=3D12643&pid=3D218320#pid218320=0A(Yes=
, it's furaffinity. *chuckles*)=0A=0AWhat I find strangest is that these pr=
ogramming staff members seem to know infinitely more than I do about progra=
mming. Yet they are so close-minded on PHP that they'll re-write their enti=
re website and forum from the ground up using frameworks and a language tha=
t's more for PC programming rather than in a language designed for the web?=
=0A=0AThis is confusing. How can someone become as knowledgeable in program=
ming as they apparently are yet not see how good PHP is for web things? Do =
they see something I don't?=0A=0AI'm beginning to wonder if PHP has any mer=
it at all. What does PHP have that other languages doesn't that makes it wo=
rth using. Does PHP even have any advantages to other languages?=0A=0AYou g=
uys are probably the closest to a PHP authority that I have easy access to,=
 so I pose the above question to you guys. Reinforce my view of my 'native'=
 language being a good one. Or at least give me some grounds to stand on sh=
ould I need to defend PHP in a debate like the one I mentioned above.=0A =
=0A~Amaroq Wolf=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A      _______________________________________=
_____________________________________________=0AFussy? Opinionated? Impossi=
ble to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://=
surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=3D7 =0A

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] good article

[Anacreo <an...@gm...>]

Well I don't think comparing two things that can achieve the same results is
"stupid" for the record.  That's like saying you can't compare the
advantages of a car vs a bus for getting to a sporting event because they're
different.

If you want to find out which is the best way to create a certain website
then comparing PHP and Ruby on Rails has real world merit.  I also believe
that weighing people's opinions is good for helping someone to determine
what's right for them.

Alec


On 10/1/07, Nola Stowe <mrn...@gm...> wrote:
>
> If you want to compare stuff, compare CakePHP to Rails.
>
> Comparing php to rails is stupid.  Of course you can do "anything you
> want"
> in php, because its not a framework. Rails is a framework which has
> predefined decisions and configuration, making it more limiting to a
> programmer who doesn't want to follow those conventions.
>
>
>
> On 10/1/07, Jason Rexilius <ja...@ho...> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, there is a small grain of truth to that which the article
> > suggests, and that is RoR is a framework which has a proscribed way of
> > doing things and has a set view of the world.  Breaking out of this is
> > not easy.  This observation on the Windows.NET vs. Unix/PHP comparison
> > was made on this list just a week ago, which is part of why I sent this
> > article along.
> >
> > Its not a great comparison to make as RoR is a framework and PHP is a
> > language.  It would be more valid to compare RoR with Cake.
> >
> > What I will say is that Frameworks are generally the next step further
> > than the Coldfusion view of the world, in that they make easy or
> > moderately difficult things easy, and complicated or hard things
> > impossible.  Its further along than Coldfusion in that analogy as it
> > does make things that are moderately difficult or repetitive easy, which
> > is a win for a lot of basic apps.
> >
> > I think what most people are finding is that, growth beyond rapid
> > prototype or migration of something that is already large and
> > complicated from a language-based custom solution to a proscribed
> > framework is hard.
> >
> > When you really get going with a complicated or scale-intensive app, you
> > will find that maturity of the platform really matters and that a lot of
> > frameworks dont have the years under their belt that a language like PHP
> > does.
> >
> > All that being said, it would be insane to say that there aren't a lot
> > (and perhaps majority) of use cases where a framework or proscribed
> > approach isn't a big win.  The large scale, complicated apps are
> > actually the edge cases and not the norm.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nola Stowe wrote:
> > >> Ruby on Rails is Windows, PHP is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is
> > > completely in your control.
> > >
> > > Thats absurd.
> > >
> > > The point of the article was that this guy, through learning another
> > > language/framework he improved his php.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 9/30/07, Anacreo <an...@gm...> wrote:
> > >> Jason,
> > >>   Thanks for sharing that article.  I'd have to say that after
> playing
> > >> with
> > >> Ruby on Rails and being very excited about it, I dropped it like a
> dead
> > >> fish.  I kind of agree with the author.  I don't think PHP is a
> > language
> > >> that deserves to be dropped yet.  I do think it has enough power to
> > >> accomplish almost any task you throw at it, and for the good
> > programmers
> > >> out
> > >> there you can get very clean and maintainable code.  The comments on
> > the
> > >> site are really silly and disregard business realities for simple
> bias.
> > >> I've talked to so many ex-Ruby on Rails users and they've all dropped
> > it
> > >> for
> > >> one reason or another and they are usually reasons I didn't even
> think
> > of.
> > >>
> > >>   Any new programming language be it Perl, Java, or PHP should smack
> > with,
> > >> "Geez I couldn't even do this before".  I dropped Perl as soon as I
> > >> started
> > >> with PHP because it was better in so many respects as a
> language.  And
> > >> when
> > >> I started coding in Java I thought wow maybe I should have started
> out
> > as
> > >> a
> > >> C programmer so I could be a Java programmer.  And that's another
> > thing, I
> > >> never got into C because there weren't real world business problems
> > that I
> > >> couldn't accomplish in Perl (there still aren't).
> > >>
> > >>   I'm not saying Ruby on Rails isn't a good skill but there were
> quite
> > a
> > >> few
> > >> posts in the article who remind me why I'm a UNIX vs a Windows
> > person.  I
> > >> have the skills already to accomplish in UNIX because it's taught me
> to
> > >> understand how everything works underneath.  Ruby on Rails is
> Windows,
> > PHP
> > >> is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is completely in your control.
> > >>
> > >> Alec
> > >>
> > >> On 9/30/07, Jason Rexilius <ja...@ho...> wrote:
> > >>> Mostly common sense, particularly the "PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ARE
> LIKE
> > >>> GIRLFRIENDS: THE NEW ONE IS BETTER BECAUSE *YOU* ARE BETTER"
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> > >>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> > >>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> > >>> chi...@li...
> > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> > >> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> > >> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> > >> chi...@li...
> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> > _______________________________________________
> > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> > chi...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
> http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] good article

[Nola S. <mrn...@gm...>]

If you want to compare stuff, compare CakePHP to Rails.

Comparing php to rails is stupid.  Of course you can do "anything you want"
in php, because its not a framework. Rails is a framework which has
predefined decisions and configuration, making it more limiting to a
programmer who doesn't want to follow those conventions.



On 10/1/07, Jason Rexilius <ja...@ho...> wrote:
>
> Actually, there is a small grain of truth to that which the article
> suggests, and that is RoR is a framework which has a proscribed way of
> doing things and has a set view of the world.  Breaking out of this is
> not easy.  This observation on the Windows.NET vs. Unix/PHP comparison
> was made on this list just a week ago, which is part of why I sent this
> article along.
>
> Its not a great comparison to make as RoR is a framework and PHP is a
> language.  It would be more valid to compare RoR with Cake.
>
> What I will say is that Frameworks are generally the next step further
> than the Coldfusion view of the world, in that they make easy or
> moderately difficult things easy, and complicated or hard things
> impossible.  Its further along than Coldfusion in that analogy as it
> does make things that are moderately difficult or repetitive easy, which
> is a win for a lot of basic apps.
>
> I think what most people are finding is that, growth beyond rapid
> prototype or migration of something that is already large and
> complicated from a language-based custom solution to a proscribed
> framework is hard.
>
> When you really get going with a complicated or scale-intensive app, you
> will find that maturity of the platform really matters and that a lot of
> frameworks dont have the years under their belt that a language like PHP
> does.
>
> All that being said, it would be insane to say that there aren't a lot
> (and perhaps majority) of use cases where a framework or proscribed
> approach isn't a big win.  The large scale, complicated apps are
> actually the edge cases and not the norm.
>
>
>
>
> Nola Stowe wrote:
> >> Ruby on Rails is Windows, PHP is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is
> > completely in your control.
> >
> > Thats absurd.
> >
> > The point of the article was that this guy, through learning another
> > language/framework he improved his php.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/30/07, Anacreo <an...@gm...> wrote:
> >> Jason,
> >>   Thanks for sharing that article.  I'd have to say that after playing
> >> with
> >> Ruby on Rails and being very excited about it, I dropped it like a dead
> >> fish.  I kind of agree with the author.  I don't think PHP is a
> language
> >> that deserves to be dropped yet.  I do think it has enough power to
> >> accomplish almost any task you throw at it, and for the good
> programmers
> >> out
> >> there you can get very clean and maintainable code.  The comments on
> the
> >> site are really silly and disregard business realities for simple bias.
> >> I've talked to so many ex-Ruby on Rails users and they've all dropped
> it
> >> for
> >> one reason or another and they are usually reasons I didn't even think
> of.
> >>
> >>   Any new programming language be it Perl, Java, or PHP should smack
> with,
> >> "Geez I couldn't even do this before".  I dropped Perl as soon as I
> >> started
> >> with PHP because it was better in so many respects as a language.  And
> >> when
> >> I started coding in Java I thought wow maybe I should have started out
> as
> >> a
> >> C programmer so I could be a Java programmer.  And that's another
> thing, I
> >> never got into C because there weren't real world business problems
> that I
> >> couldn't accomplish in Perl (there still aren't).
> >>
> >>   I'm not saying Ruby on Rails isn't a good skill but there were quite
> a
> >> few
> >> posts in the article who remind me why I'm a UNIX vs a Windows
> person.  I
> >> have the skills already to accomplish in UNIX because it's taught me to
> >> understand how everything works underneath.  Ruby on Rails is Windows,
> PHP
> >> is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is completely in your control.
> >>
> >> Alec
> >>
> >> On 9/30/07, Jason Rexilius <ja...@ho...> wrote:
> >>> Mostly common sense, particularly the "PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ARE LIKE
> >>> GIRLFRIENDS: THE NEW ONE IS BETTER BECAUSE *YOU* ARE BETTER"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> >>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> >>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> >>> chi...@li...
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> >>>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> >> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> >> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> >> chi...@li...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>



-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] good article

[Jason R. <ja...@ho...>]

Actually, there is a small grain of truth to that which the article 
suggests, and that is RoR is a framework which has a proscribed way of 
doing things and has a set view of the world.  Breaking out of this is 
not easy.  This observation on the Windows.NET vs. Unix/PHP comparison 
was made on this list just a week ago, which is part of why I sent this 
article along.

Its not a great comparison to make as RoR is a framework and PHP is a 
language.  It would be more valid to compare RoR with Cake.

What I will say is that Frameworks are generally the next step further 
than the Coldfusion view of the world, in that they make easy or 
moderately difficult things easy, and complicated or hard things 
impossible.  Its further along than Coldfusion in that analogy as it 
does make things that are moderately difficult or repetitive easy, which 
is a win for a lot of basic apps.

I think what most people are finding is that, growth beyond rapid 
prototype or migration of something that is already large and 
complicated from a language-based custom solution to a proscribed 
framework is hard.

When you really get going with a complicated or scale-intensive app, you 
will find that maturity of the platform really matters and that a lot of 
frameworks dont have the years under their belt that a language like PHP 
does.

All that being said, it would be insane to say that there aren't a lot 
(and perhaps majority) of use cases where a framework or proscribed 
approach isn't a big win.  The large scale, complicated apps are 
actually the edge cases and not the norm.




Nola Stowe wrote:
>> Ruby on Rails is Windows, PHP is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is
> completely in your control.
> 
> Thats absurd.
> 
> The point of the article was that this guy, through learning another
> language/framework he improved his php.
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/30/07, Anacreo <an...@gm...> wrote:
>> Jason,
>>   Thanks for sharing that article.  I'd have to say that after playing
>> with
>> Ruby on Rails and being very excited about it, I dropped it like a dead
>> fish.  I kind of agree with the author.  I don't think PHP is a language
>> that deserves to be dropped yet.  I do think it has enough power to
>> accomplish almost any task you throw at it, and for the good programmers
>> out
>> there you can get very clean and maintainable code.  The comments on the
>> site are really silly and disregard business realities for simple bias.
>> I've talked to so many ex-Ruby on Rails users and they've all dropped it
>> for
>> one reason or another and they are usually reasons I didn't even think of.
>>
>>   Any new programming language be it Perl, Java, or PHP should smack with,
>> "Geez I couldn't even do this before".  I dropped Perl as soon as I
>> started
>> with PHP because it was better in so many respects as a language.  And
>> when
>> I started coding in Java I thought wow maybe I should have started out as
>> a
>> C programmer so I could be a Java programmer.  And that's another thing, I
>> never got into C because there weren't real world business problems that I
>> couldn't accomplish in Perl (there still aren't).
>>
>>   I'm not saying Ruby on Rails isn't a good skill but there were quite a
>> few
>> posts in the article who remind me why I'm a UNIX vs a Windows person.  I
>> have the skills already to accomplish in UNIX because it's taught me to
>> understand how everything works underneath.  Ruby on Rails is Windows, PHP
>> is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is completely in your control.
>>
>> Alec
>>
>> On 9/30/07, Jason Rexilius <ja...@ho...> wrote:
>>> Mostly common sense, particularly the "PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ARE LIKE
>>> GIRLFRIENDS: THE NEW ONE IS BETTER BECAUSE *YOU* ARE BETTER"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
>>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
>>> chi...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
>> _______________________________________________
>> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
>> chi...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>>
> 
> 
> 

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] good article

[Anacreo <an...@gm...>]

What's so absurd about that point?  With Windows you can use a few widgets
and crank out some functionality very quickly, but if you need something
those widgets don't provide you're going to have to start writing code at a
much lower level and work your way there, how is this not identical to Ruby
on Rails?  UNIX gives you a very complete basic vocabulary to get everything
done and generally you have to put more lines of code in and do things your
way but it's exactly what you need, how is PHP any different from that?

Alec

On 10/1/07, Nola Stowe <mrn...@gm...> wrote:
>
> >Ruby on Rails is Windows, PHP is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is
> completely in your control.
>
> Thats absurd.
>
> The point of the article was that this guy, through learning another
> language/framework he improved his php.
>
>
>
> On 9/30/07, Anacreo <an...@gm...> wrote:
>
> > Jason,
> >   Thanks for sharing that article.  I'd have to say that after playing
> > with
> > Ruby on Rails and being very excited about it, I dropped it like a dead
> > fish.  I kind of agree with the author.  I don't think PHP is a language
> >
> > that deserves to be dropped yet.  I do think it has enough power to
> > accomplish almost any task you throw at it, and for the good programmers
> > out
> > there you can get very clean and maintainable code.  The comments on the
> >
> > site are really silly and disregard business realities for simple bias.
> > I've talked to so many ex-Ruby on Rails users and they've all dropped it
> > for
> > one reason or another and they are usually reasons I didn't even think
> > of.
> >
> >   Any new programming language be it Perl, Java, or PHP should smack
> > with,
> > "Geez I couldn't even do this before".  I dropped Perl as soon as I
> > started
> > with PHP because it was better in so many respects as a language.  And
> > when
> > I started coding in Java I thought wow maybe I should have started out
> > as a
> > C programmer so I could be a Java programmer.  And that's another thing,
> > I
> > never got into C because there weren't real world business problems that
> > I
> > couldn't accomplish in Perl (there still aren't).
> >
> >   I'm not saying Ruby on Rails isn't a good skill but there were quite a
> > few
> > posts in the article who remind me why I'm a UNIX vs a Windows
> > person.  I
> > have the skills already to accomplish in UNIX because it's taught me to
> > understand how everything works underneath.  Ruby on Rails is Windows,
> > PHP
> > is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is completely in your control.
> >
> > Alec
> >
> > On 9/30/07, Jason Rexilius <ja...@ho...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Mostly common sense, particularly the "PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ARE LIKE
> > > GIRLFRIENDS: THE NEW ONE IS BETTER BECAUSE *YOU* ARE BETTER"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> > > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> > > chi...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> > _______________________________________________
> > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> > chi...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
> http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] good article

[Neil Y. <ny...@as...>]

I completely agree with Nola - the author says in one of his posts in =
the
comments that he should have just have disguised the name of the =
languages
so that readers might have understood the point (as Nola summarized =
below)
rather than just coming back with a knee-jerk defense of their favorite
language.

I think this response blog sums up the fanatic response pretty well:

http://www.pervasivecode.com/blog/2007/09/23/immature-developer-attitudes=
-re
vealed-in-flames-regarding-cdbaby/

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: chi...@li...
[mailto:chi...@li...] On Behalf Of =
Nola
Stowe
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:58 AM
To: Anacreo
Cc: chiphpug-discuss
Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] good article

>Ruby on Rails is Windows, PHP is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is
completely in your control.

Thats absurd.

The point of the article was that this guy, through learning another
language/framework he improved his php.

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] good article

[Nola S. <mrn...@gm...>]

>Ruby on Rails is Windows, PHP is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is
completely in your control.

Thats absurd.

The point of the article was that this guy, through learning another
language/framework he improved his php.



On 9/30/07, Anacreo <an...@gm...> wrote:
>
> Jason,
>   Thanks for sharing that article.  I'd have to say that after playing
> with
> Ruby on Rails and being very excited about it, I dropped it like a dead
> fish.  I kind of agree with the author.  I don't think PHP is a language
> that deserves to be dropped yet.  I do think it has enough power to
> accomplish almost any task you throw at it, and for the good programmers
> out
> there you can get very clean and maintainable code.  The comments on the
> site are really silly and disregard business realities for simple bias.
> I've talked to so many ex-Ruby on Rails users and they've all dropped it
> for
> one reason or another and they are usually reasons I didn't even think of.
>
>   Any new programming language be it Perl, Java, or PHP should smack with,
> "Geez I couldn't even do this before".  I dropped Perl as soon as I
> started
> with PHP because it was better in so many respects as a language.  And
> when
> I started coding in Java I thought wow maybe I should have started out as
> a
> C programmer so I could be a Java programmer.  And that's another thing, I
> never got into C because there weren't real world business problems that I
> couldn't accomplish in Perl (there still aren't).
>
>   I'm not saying Ruby on Rails isn't a good skill but there were quite a
> few
> posts in the article who remind me why I'm a UNIX vs a Windows person.  I
> have the skills already to accomplish in UNIX because it's taught me to
> understand how everything works underneath.  Ruby on Rails is Windows, PHP
> is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is completely in your control.
>
> Alec
>
> On 9/30/07, Jason Rexilius <ja...@ho...> wrote:
> >
> > Mostly common sense, particularly the "PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ARE LIKE
> > GIRLFRIENDS: THE NEW ONE IS BETTER BECAUSE *YOU* ARE BETTER"
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> > _______________________________________________
> > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> > chi...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>



-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] good article

[Anacreo <an...@gm...>]

Jason,
  Thanks for sharing that article.  I'd have to say that after playing with
Ruby on Rails and being very excited about it, I dropped it like a dead
fish.  I kind of agree with the author.  I don't think PHP is a language
that deserves to be dropped yet.  I do think it has enough power to
accomplish almost any task you throw at it, and for the good programmers out
there you can get very clean and maintainable code.  The comments on the
site are really silly and disregard business realities for simple bias.
I've talked to so many ex-Ruby on Rails users and they've all dropped it for
one reason or another and they are usually reasons I didn't even think of.

  Any new programming language be it Perl, Java, or PHP should smack with,
"Geez I couldn't even do this before".  I dropped Perl as soon as I started
with PHP because it was better in so many respects as a language.  And when
I started coding in Java I thought wow maybe I should have started out as a
C programmer so I could be a Java programmer.  And that's another thing, I
never got into C because there weren't real world business problems that I
couldn't accomplish in Perl (there still aren't).

  I'm not saying Ruby on Rails isn't a good skill but there were quite a few
posts in the article who remind me why I'm a UNIX vs a Windows person.  I
have the skills already to accomplish in UNIX because it's taught me to
understand how everything works underneath.  Ruby on Rails is Windows, PHP
is UNIX.  Both get the job done one is completely in your control.

Alec

On 9/30/07, Jason Rexilius <ja...@ho...> wrote:
>
> Mostly common sense, particularly the "PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ARE LIKE
> GIRLFRIENDS: THE NEW ONE IS BETTER BECAUSE *YOU* ARE BETTER"
>
>
> http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>

[chiPHPug-discuss] good article

[Jason R. <ja...@ho...>]

Mostly common sense, particularly the "PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ARE LIKE 
GIRLFRIENDS: THE NEW ONE IS BETTER BECAUSE *YOU* ARE BETTER"

http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html

[chiPHPug-discuss] ChiPHPug Meeting 1st Saturday

[<ce...@l-...>]

ChiPHPug (Chicago PHP Users Group) brunch social is coming up.



If I wrote the PHP code correctly, it's on 10/06/2007



For sure, it's on the FIRST SATURDAY of each month.



Time: 1 pm

Location: Uncommon Ground

http://uncommonground.com



Directions:

Find Wrigley Field.
Drive 1.5 blocks Northwest on Clark.
Park.
There are several spots that have no meter but are perfectly legal right on the corner.

[chiPHPug-discuss] BarCamp Milwaukee 2, October 13-14, 2007

[Nola S. <mrn...@gm...>]

BarCamp Milwaukee 2, Saturday, October 13 through Sunday, October 14, 2007

   http://barcampmilwaukee.com/

Last year's event was great fun and we think this year will be even better.
We would love to have you come and spend time with us if you're available!


Where is it?
----------
BarCamp is happening at the Schlitz Park Center, 1555 Rivercenter Drive in
downtown Milwaukee, on the river's edge. I was in the meeting space the
other day and the whole Schlitz Park and 3rd Street areas are getting
revitalized. There's a great energy down there.

Here's a map to where BarCamp will take place:

   http://tinyurl.com/37udgp


What is BarCamp all about?
------------------------
It's a space and a place where people interested in learning and sharing can
hang out, and learn with others who want to learn and share.

BarCamp is a free event but there are also no passive attendees -- we
encourage everyone to share something with the group -- whether expertise,
knowledge, passion about a topic or simply helping out during the event.

   http://barcampmilwaukee.com/getting-started


How Much is it?
--------------
It's totally free! There will be food and camping space provided for
attendees who need a place to crash on Saturday night, though you can drive
home, or attend just Saturday, or just Sunday, whatever suits your schedule.

If you decide to camp, just bring a pillow and a sleeping bag. :-)


Free T-Shirt with Registration!
--------------------------
Register, and you'll get a cool t-shirt for free:

   http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1403125149&size=l

IMPORTANT: It's critical that you sign up by Wednesday, September 26th, and
be sure to include your shirt size! Once we take the art and shirt info to
the printer on the 26th, there's no guarantee of getting a t-shirt!

I would love to have you come to BarCamp Milwaukee 2. It's going to be a
great time of learning, sharing and getting to know all kinds of different,
interesting people from Milwaukee and the Midwest. Sign up here:

http://barcampmilwaukee.com/user/register

If you have any questions about the event, send me a note. I'm happy to
provide answers.

-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com <http://devchix.com/> - boys can't have all the fun

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] Not so subtle attack on PHP

[Kenneth D. <ke...@se...>]

Jason Rexilius wrote:
> Indeed.. Although I do actually agree with some aspect of the ".NET 
> shackles you, LAMP expects that you know what you're doing" sentiment.
>
> I don't think .NET helps with SQL injection attacks specifically, 
> however, but MS approaches in general tend to be "proscribed or 
> impossible".

I always liked the way Heinlein said it, when speaking of some 
societies: "Whatever is not encouraged is forbidden."

-- 
Kenneth Downs
Secure Data Software, Inc.
www.secdat.com    www.andromeda-project.org
631-689-7200   Fax: 631-689-0527
cell: 631-379-0010

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] Not so subtle attack on PHP

[Jason R. <ja...@ho...>]

Indeed.. Although I do actually agree with some aspect of the ".NET 
shackles you, LAMP expects that you know what you're doing" sentiment.

I don't think .NET helps with SQL injection attacks specifically, 
however, but MS approaches in general tend to be "proscribed or 
impossible".  I would not say, however, that this has had any positive 
impact on security.

I am also continually frustrated with the poor quality of code I come 
across in lots of areas. I dont think "kids these days" are any better 
prepared for the realities of multi-system, multi-component 
architectures than they were at any other point in recent years.

I will say that PHP, Perl and Python are all powerful languages. And 
with great power comes great sharp, pointy edges and lots and lots of rope.

But I am fond of rope..


Neil Young wrote:
> Hello all - I've been lurking on this mailing list for several weeks, but
> that article irks me into the open.  
> 
> I'm frustrated that he not only attacks PHP, open source and older languages
> using ASP.NET as the standard for good security.  How can a security expert
> keep a straight face when starting a sentence with "Microsoft's mindset is
> to fix things..."  .NET is just as likely to result in SQL injection in the
> hands of a novice as any other language.
> 
> I also am angered at his assertion that the latest batch of college educated
> developers will be better prepared to tackle the problem of SQL injection.
> Most programmers fresh out of college know little to nothing about real
> world problems like SQL injection, usually having barely mastered the basics
> of iteration and OO design.  
> 
> Neil
> 
> ----------
> Neil Young
> ASA Sales Systems
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: chi...@li...
> [mailto:chi...@li...] On Behalf Of Kenneth
> Downs
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:55 AM
> To: chiphpug-discuss
> Subject: [chiPHPug-discuss] Not so subtle attack on PHP
> 
> *From: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2188714,00.asp
> 
> Q: How can sites protect themselves against SQL injection?
> A: *The best defense is to design your database-backed Web site properly 
> to make sure it always separates SQL code and user data. You basically 
> have a choice between programming tools that are specifically designed 
> to prevent you from making this kind of mistake and those that allow you 
> to get into trouble if you're not careful. Roughly speaking, this 
> corresponds to the difference between the newer Microsoft .Net tools and 
> their older tools or open source frameworks like PHP.
>