chiphpug-discuss — Discussions of PHP-related topics among members of the Chicago PHP User's Group.

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[matt d. <mm_...@ya...>]

Just my opinion! Larry can sell you on merits. 
I think frameworks like Drupal are designed to minimize what a developer can do and I prefer a more flexible, smaller framework that empowers.
It's generally a sign the company does not value (or trust) developers and would rather swap them in like sparkplugs. Probably for good reasons!
Also- any code in a database is a deal-breaker for me. If you like developing in web forms then have at it.

I also read a good article once about 'green' development which states the case that heavy frameworks or declarative languages like Ruby are pretty wasteful enviroment wise. CPU's = heat, heat = cooling, cooling = wasted energy.

 



________________________________
From: Janine Starykowicz <jr...@ba...>
To: Chicago PHP User Group <chi...@li...>
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 7:47:53 PM
Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

matt donohue wrote:
> It would help if the following occured more often:
> Drupal? Sorry- No thanks.
>  

Can you explain why to a relative newbie who is considering Drupal?

Janine


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Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Janine S. <jr...@ba...>]

matt donohue wrote:
> It would help if the following occured more often:
> Drupal? Sorry- No thanks.
>   

Can you explain why to a relative newbie who is considering Drupal?

Janine

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Larry G. <la...@ga...>]

On Monday 14 September 2009 6:35:33 pm Arlo Leach wrote:
> Hello,
>
> > Only if the custom system you're working with is crap, or you don't know
> > how to leverage it properly.  Any system worth its salt will make add-ons
> > easier to develop, because you can leverage good existing libraries to do
> > much of the hard work for you or because there are add-on libraries
> > available that already do most of what you want, than a completely custom
> > system.  That's assuming you know how to leverage that particular system
> > properly, of course, which is where "experience with platform X" comes
> > in.
>
> Most of my customizations have been with systems like OSCommerce or
> Wordpress. Sometimes plug-ins are available; most of the time they are
> abandoned and no longer compatible. I spend the majority of my time in
> these systems simply finding the code that I need to modify to get the
> desired functionality. They tend to have layers and layers of files that
> aren't organized in any obvious way, so I'm constantly doing multi-file
> searches to try and locate the needed code. In some cases they have
> redundant code, so I make a change in one part of the system, then later I
> have to go back and change it again somewhere else. I guess in my own mind
> I was thinking those systems were "crap" when I was working with them, but
> they're both too popular to avoid.

I did experiment briefly with OSCommerce a few years ago, and ran screaming in 
terror.  Just looking at the code took a few years off my life.  It was like an 
entire application written specifically for Daily WTF.  I will note my earlier 
caveat of "not being crap". :-)

The catch is that in a good system, the code will be organized in a logical 
way, even if it's not immediately obvious.  If it's learnable and logical, 
you'll be able to pick it up.  Maybe not in a day or three, but any large 
system requires an investment of time to figure out how to use properly.  

> I did a project with a social networking system called Handshakes that had
> all the right features to get started, but its code was scattered all over
> the place. It used classes for the major sections of the system, but most
> of the functionality wasn't in the classes. And some of the code -- this
> took me a long time to figure out -- is stored in the database, so it
> wasn't even coming up in my searches. After two years of updating the
> project, I have a pretty good idea where to look for things, but I still
> have to do multi-file searches and go on scavenger hunts to find things.
>
> The custom systems I've seen, in contrast, don't get so big that they need
> more than two levels of directory structure, because they're not trying to
> provide every function that a mass-market audience requires. I'm not trying
> to say one approach is always better than the other, but the overall effort
> required can be pretty similar.

You may want to look into component frameworks like Zend, CodeIgnighter, etc. 
rather than "full stack" frameworks and extensible applications like Drupal, 
WordPress, Cake, et al.  If what you want is "just the bits I need HERE and 
nothing else with a fully custom workflow", that's going to be much closer to 
what you need and can still save you a lot of time debugging and sorting out 
all of the common security holes.  Honestly I don't trust custom systems to be 
secure.  There's too many ways to make something insecure if you don't have a 
common system that handles it for you.  (Rasmus has said as much before 
publicly, and Google's Chris Messina has as well.)

> Anyway, a couple years ago I did a project with Wordpress and a project
> with vBulletin at the same time, using the "hooks" in both systems, and the
> difference was striking. I was able to do everything I needed in vBulletin
> without touching its code, but I had to make about two dozen Wordpress
> hacks in places where hooks weren't available. So there's obviously a wide
> range of malleability with these systems, and it's hard to tell what you're
> getting until you dig in.

True, that's what a mixture of research and experimentation gets you.  I'd 
argue that in that regard, vBulletin is the "better" system if your metric of 
"better" is extensibility.  If your metric is "out of the box does something 
useful without thinking", then WordPress is pretty darned good.

Of course, I'm a Drupal core developer so I have a biased opinion on how 
important extensibility is. :-)  (Drupal's extensibility is scary at times, 
and there's an army of people who will show up at your house to beat the crap 
out of you if you "hack core" in order to get something done. <g>)

-- 
Larry Garfield
la...@ga...

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Arlo L. <ar...@ar...>]

Hello,

> Only if the custom system you're working with is crap, or you don't know how
> to leverage it properly.  Any system worth its salt will make add-ons easier
> to develop, because you can leverage good existing libraries to do much of the
> hard work for you or because there are add-on libraries available that already
> do most of what you want, than a completely custom system.  That's assuming
> you know how to leverage that particular system properly, of course, which is
> where "experience with platform X" comes in.

Most of my customizations have been with systems like OSCommerce or
Wordpress. Sometimes plug-ins are available; most of the time they are
abandoned and no longer compatible. I spend the majority of my time in these
systems simply finding the code that I need to modify to get the desired
functionality. They tend to have layers and layers of files that aren't
organized in any obvious way, so I'm constantly doing multi-file searches to
try and locate the needed code. In some cases they have redundant code, so I
make a change in one part of the system, then later I have to go back and
change it again somewhere else. I guess in my own mind I was thinking those
systems were "crap" when I was working with them, but they're both too
popular to avoid.

I did a project with a social networking system called Handshakes that had
all the right features to get started, but its code was scattered all over
the place. It used classes for the major sections of the system, but most of
the functionality wasn't in the classes. And some of the code -- this took
me a long time to figure out -- is stored in the database, so it wasn't even
coming up in my searches. After two years of updating the project, I have a
pretty good idea where to look for things, but I still have to do multi-file
searches and go on scavenger hunts to find things.

The custom systems I've seen, in contrast, don't get so big that they need
more than two levels of directory structure, because they're not trying to
provide every function that a mass-market audience requires. I'm not trying
to say one approach is always better than the other, but the overall effort
required can be pretty similar.

Anyway, a couple years ago I did a project with Wordpress and a project with
vBulletin at the same time, using the "hooks" in both systems, and the
difference was striking. I was able to do everything I needed in vBulletin
without touching its code, but I had to make about two dozen Wordpress hacks
in places where hooks weren't available. So there's obviously a wide range
of malleability with these systems, and it's hard to tell what you're
getting until you dig in.

Cheers,
-Arlo 

_______________________________

Arlo Leach
773.769.6106
http://arlomedia.com

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[matt d. <mm_...@ya...>]

It would help if the following occured more often:
Drupal? Sorry- No thanks.
Smarty? Uh- no thanks again.
Magento? Ha- good luck.

chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
chi...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Larry G. <la...@ga...>]

On Friday 11 September 2009 5:54:11 pm Arlo Leach wrote:
> > Yep, my fault. I guess I'm not that good at PHP. Eh, Neil?
>
> Well, I don't think Neil or Zach meant that working with any PHP-based
> software or framework should be -easy-.
>
> Most of my projects begin with comparing the available off-the-shelf
> options to a custom solution or a hybrid between the two. I explain to
> clients that a custom solution will take longer to get going up front, but
> in the future, customizations to off-the-shelf software will take about
> three times longer than a comparable addition to the custom software.
> There's just a lot more "stuff" to work through in those systems compared
> to a system that was designed and built for one purpose.

Only if the custom system you're working with is crap, or you don't know how 
to leverage it properly.  Any system worth its salt will make add-ons easier 
to develop, because you can leverage good existing libraries to do much of the 
hard work for you or because there are add-on libraries available that already 
do most of what you want, than a completely custom system.  That's assuming 
you know how to leverage that particular system properly, of course, which is 
where "experience with platform X" comes in.

It works for languages, too.  I'm a skilled PHP programmer with a decade of 
experience.  I've worked in a number of other languages, too.  I could 
probably pick up enough C# to be at least moderately productive in a month or 
so.  I don't expect I'd actually be any GOOD at it for at least a year, 
because a different language/framework/platform requires such a different mental 
model that takes time to develop.  

And that's assuming the language/framework/platform is any good.  I've worked 
with systems where it didn't really matter how good I was, the end product was 
going to be crap because the underlying foundation was crap.  There's no way I 
could have changed that without rewriting the underlying foundation, which of 
course budget didn't allow. :-)

-- 
Larry Garfield
la...@ga...

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Keith C. <mai...@ca...>]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Arlo Leach <ar...@ar...> wrote:
> I guess I should add "difficulty in finding more developers experienced with
> that software" as an additional caveat to clients considering such systems.
> A few years ago it seemed like every craigslist ad wanted someone
> experienced with Smarty templates; then it was Drupal; maybe Magento will be
> the next system whose popularity exceeds the available knowledge base.

Part of the problem with Magento is that it's a hairy beast, has only
been around for a year-18 months, and is billed as a perfect system
that you can have off the ground in a matter of hours... when in
reality, you're looking at days, if not weeks of work. One of my guys
has been writing an analysis of it for the past few months -
http://blueparabola.com/category/general/magento - and has elicited
some criticism from Varien's CTO.  Varien is the company behind
Magento.

Part of the problem is that it's *sort* of an Open Source project...
sure, it's unencrypted PHP and you can edit it to your heart's
content.  Yes, there is a community around it writing patches and
submitting/sharing them.  The problem is tha their repository isn't
available for public review so major things break between minor
versions and no one knows until it's released.  Further, you don't
know which patches and contributions have been included because their
changelogs are borderline worthless.  Finally, they have a wiki with
user-generated docs and tips, but there's no "blessings" on any of the
pages saying "yes, this is considered the best way" or any effort to
identify which versions the instructions apply to... combined with the
"breaking stuff between minor versions" point, this makes it painful
at best.

And fyi, my guy teaches the Magento class for php|architect... so he's
generally pretty clueful on it.

My 0.02,
keith

-- 
D. Keith Casey Jr.
CTO, Blue Parabola, LLC
http://BlueParabola.com
http://CaseySoftware.com/blog

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Arlo L. <ar...@ar...>]

> Yep, my fault. I guess I'm not that good at PHP. Eh, Neil?

Well, I don't think Neil or Zach meant that working with any PHP-based
software or framework should be -easy-.

Most of my projects begin with comparing the available off-the-shelf options
to a custom solution or a hybrid between the two. I explain to clients that
a custom solution will take longer to get going up front, but in the future,
customizations to off-the-shelf software will take about three times longer
than a comparable addition to the custom software. There's just a lot more
"stuff" to work through in those systems compared to a system that was
designed and built for one purpose.

I guess I should add "difficulty in finding more developers experienced with
that software" as an additional caveat to clients considering such systems.
A few years ago it seemed like every craigslist ad wanted someone
experienced with Smarty templates; then it was Drupal; maybe Magento will be
the next system whose popularity exceeds the available knowledge base.

Cheers,
-Arlo

_______________________________

Arlo Leach
773.769.6106
http://arlomedia.com

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[phpWalter <php...@to...>]

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:33:35 -0400, Zachary Wilson
<zw...@gu...> wrote:
> At the end of the day, it's PHP. If you're a good developer any
> platform/framework/software written in PHP is managable.

Yes, one could draw that logical assumption.

But, from my experience, when an employer says they want "experience" with
this or that platform/framework/software. they really mean it.

I can't tell you how many "opportunities" I've gone to and they wondered
why I could not get this or that fully operation in an afternoon. After
all, I have 16 years of development and 6 with PHP, so it should be easy!

Given time, yes, "any platform/framework/software written in PHP is
manageable" with an experienced developer.

The issue comes in with inexperienced or unrealistic employers.

I had a gig that lasted 3 days. They sent me home because I could not get
their current eCommerce site running on Magento by the end of the second
day. I don't know if they ever got it really running. When I went home that
third morning (about 20 minutes after I got in) I left a test server
running with their data, images, catalog and users. The skin didn't look
their old one, and several other items didn't run as advertised by Magento
right "out of the box."

Yep, my fault. I guess I'm not that good at PHP. Eh, Neil?

Walter

It really is sad.

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Neil R. <Nei...@rc...>]

We're the *last* people you have to convince.  Tell us how to explain 
it to a "Human Relations professional"!


At 03:33 PM 9/11/2009, Zachary Wilson <zw...@gu...> wrote:
>At the end of the day, it's PHP. If you're a good developer any
>platform/framework/software written in PHP is managable.
>
>
>-Zach
>
>
>On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Richard Lynch <ce...@l-...> wrote:
> > I don't think Magento experience is all that common.
> >
> > On Thu, September 10, 2009 9:19 pm, Neil Rest wrote:
> >> This opening has been advertised steadily for a month or two at
> >> least.  I don't know if they're looking for something rare, or are
> >> just hard to please.
> >>
> >>
> >> At 12:42 PM 9/10/2009, "Richard Lynch" <ce...@l-...> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>-------------------------- Original Message
> >>> --------------------------
> >>>Subject: per our conversation
> >>>From:    "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...>
> >>>Date:    Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm
> >>>To:      "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...>
> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>Rich
> >>>Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to
> >>>your group!
> >>>
> >>>I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what
> >>>we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need
> >>>a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have
> >>>many more to come.
> >>>
> >>>Must have
> >>>
> >>>  *   3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework
> >>>  *   Magento knowledge
> >>>  *   Experience developing in a LAMP environment
> >>>  *   Excellent skills in Open Source technology
> >>>  *   Previous ecommerce experience preferred
> >>>  *   Outstanding communication skills written and verbal
> >>>  *   Local to Chicagoland area
> >>>  *   Ability to work under pressure
> >>>  *   Team player and motivated by timelines
> >>>  *   Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus
> >>>
> >>>Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please
> >>> submit
> >>>resume for immediate review
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager
> >>>T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022
> >>>kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...>
> >>>
> >>>LYONS CONSULTING GROUP
> >>>405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300
> >>>Chicago, IL 60654
> >>>www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com>
> >>>blog.lyonscg.com
> >>>http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77
> >>


Neil
--
Nei...@rc...

Being desirous of allaying the dissension's of party strife now 
existing within our realm, [I] do hereby dissolve and abolish the 
Democratic and Republican parties, and also do hereby decree the 
disfranchisement and imprisonment, for not more than ten, nor less 
than five years, to all persons leading to any violation of this our 
imperial decree.
  -- Norton I, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico
San Francisco Herald, August 4, 1869

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Walker H. <sig...@gm...>]

"At the end of the day, it's PHP. If you're a good developer any
platform/framework/software written in PHP is managable."

Amen


On Sep 11, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Zachary Wilson  
<zw...@gu...> wrote:

> At the end of the day, it's PHP. If you're a good developer any
> platform/framework/software written in PHP is managable.

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Zachary W. <zw...@gu...>]

At the end of the day, it's PHP. If you're a good developer any
platform/framework/software written in PHP is managable.


-Zach
__________________
Gulo Solutions LLC
Content Management Software
& Internet Consulting Services
http://www.gulosolutions.com
p. 773.276.8066
c. 917.605.5665



On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Richard Lynch <ce...@l-...> wrote:
> I don't think Magento experience is all that common.
>
> On Thu, September 10, 2009 9:19 pm, Neil Rest wrote:
>> This opening has been advertised steadily for a month or two at
>> least.  I don't know if they're looking for something rare, or are
>> just hard to please.
>>
>>
>> At 12:42 PM 9/10/2009, "Richard Lynch" <ce...@l-...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>-------------------------- Original Message
>>> --------------------------
>>>Subject: per our conversation
>>>From:    "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...>
>>>Date:    Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm
>>>To:      "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>Rich
>>>Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to
>>>your group!
>>>
>>>I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what
>>>we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need
>>>a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have
>>>many more to come.
>>>
>>>Must have
>>>
>>>  *   3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework
>>>  *   Magento knowledge
>>>  *   Experience developing in a LAMP environment
>>>  *   Excellent skills in Open Source technology
>>>  *   Previous ecommerce experience preferred
>>>  *   Outstanding communication skills written and verbal
>>>  *   Local to Chicagoland area
>>>  *   Ability to work under pressure
>>>  *   Team player and motivated by timelines
>>>  *   Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus
>>>
>>>Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please
>>> submit
>>>resume for immediate review
>>>
>>>
>>>Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager
>>>T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022
>>>kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...>
>>>
>>>LYONS CONSULTING GROUP
>>>405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300
>>>Chicago, IL 60654
>>>www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com>
>>>blog.lyonscg.com
>>>http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77
>>
>>
>> Neil
>> --
>> Nei...@rc...
>>
>> The artist in our time has two chief responsibilities: (1) art; and
>> (2) sedition.
>>   -- Edward Abbey
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>> 30-Day
>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
>> focus on
>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>> _______________________________________________
>> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
>> chi...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>>
>
>
> --
> Some people ask for gifts here.
> I just want you to buy an Indie CD for yourself:
> http://cdbaby.com/search/from/lynch
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Richard L. <ce...@l-...>]

I don't think Magento experience is all that common.

On Thu, September 10, 2009 9:19 pm, Neil Rest wrote:
> This opening has been advertised steadily for a month or two at
> least.  I don't know if they're looking for something rare, or are
> just hard to please.
>
>
> At 12:42 PM 9/10/2009, "Richard Lynch" <ce...@l-...> wrote:
>
>
>>-------------------------- Original Message
>> --------------------------
>>Subject: per our conversation
>>From:    "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...>
>>Date:    Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm
>>To:      "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Rich
>>Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to
>>your group!
>>
>>I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what
>>we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need
>>a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have
>>many more to come.
>>
>>Must have
>>
>>  *   3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework
>>  *   Magento knowledge
>>  *   Experience developing in a LAMP environment
>>  *   Excellent skills in Open Source technology
>>  *   Previous ecommerce experience preferred
>>  *   Outstanding communication skills written and verbal
>>  *   Local to Chicagoland area
>>  *   Ability to work under pressure
>>  *   Team player and motivated by timelines
>>  *   Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus
>>
>>Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please
>> submit
>>resume for immediate review
>>
>>
>>Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager
>>T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022
>>kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...>
>>
>>LYONS CONSULTING GROUP
>>405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300
>>Chicago, IL 60654
>>www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com>
>>blog.lyonscg.com
>>http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77
>
>
> Neil
> --
> Nei...@rc...
>
> The artist in our time has two chief responsibilities: (1) art; and
> (2) sedition.
>   -- Edward Abbey
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
> 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
> focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>


-- 
Some people ask for gifts here.
I just want you to buy an Indie CD for yourself:
http://cdbaby.com/search/from/lynch

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Neil R. <Nei...@rc...>]

This opening has been advertised steadily for a month or two at 
least.  I don't know if they're looking for something rare, or are 
just hard to please.


At 12:42 PM 9/10/2009, "Richard Lynch" <ce...@l-...> wrote:


>-------------------------- Original Message --------------------------
>Subject: per our conversation
>From:    "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...>
>Date:    Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm
>To:      "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Rich
>Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to
>your group!
>
>I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what
>we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need
>a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have
>many more to come.
>
>Must have
>
>  *   3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework
>  *   Magento knowledge
>  *   Experience developing in a LAMP environment
>  *   Excellent skills in Open Source technology
>  *   Previous ecommerce experience preferred
>  *   Outstanding communication skills written and verbal
>  *   Local to Chicagoland area
>  *   Ability to work under pressure
>  *   Team player and motivated by timelines
>  *   Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus
>
>Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please submit
>resume for immediate review
>
>
>Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager
>T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022
>kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...>
>
>LYONS CONSULTING GROUP
>405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300
>Chicago, IL 60654
>www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com>
>blog.lyonscg.com
>http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77


Neil
--
Nei...@rc...

The artist in our time has two chief responsibilities: (1) art; and 
(2) sedition.
  -- Edward Abbey

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Kathleen C. <kco...@ly...>]

Thank you!

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Lynch [mailto:ce...@l-...]
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 12:43 PM
To: chi...@li...
Subject: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job



-------------------------- Original Message --------------------------
Subject: per our conversation
From:    "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...>
Date:    Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm
To:      "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rich
Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to your group!

I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have many more to come.

Must have

 *   3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework
 *   Magento knowledge
 *   Experience developing in a LAMP environment
 *   Excellent skills in Open Source technology
 *   Previous ecommerce experience preferred
 *   Outstanding communication skills written and verbal
 *   Local to Chicagoland area
 *   Ability to work under pressure
 *   Team player and motivated by timelines
 *   Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus

Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please submit resume for immediate review


Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager
T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022 kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...>

LYONS CONSULTING GROUP
405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300
Chicago, IL 60654
www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com>
blog.lyonscg.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77

VISIT BOOTH #112 TO WIN
A COMPLIMENTARY UX ASSESSMENT

[cid:image001.png@01CA316B.4052A460]




--
Some people ask for gifts here.
I just want you to buy an Indie CD for yourself:
http://cdbaby.com/search/from/lynch

[chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job

[Richard L. <ce...@l-...>]

-------------------------- Original Message --------------------------
Subject: per our conversation
From:    "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...>
Date:    Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm
To:      "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rich
Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to
your group!

I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what
we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need
a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have
many more to come.

Must have

 *   3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework
 *   Magento knowledge
 *   Experience developing in a LAMP environment
 *   Excellent skills in Open Source technology
 *   Previous ecommerce experience preferred
 *   Outstanding communication skills written and verbal
 *   Local to Chicagoland area
 *   Ability to work under pressure
 *   Team player and motivated by timelines
 *   Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus

Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please submit
resume for immediate review


Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager
T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022
kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...>

LYONS CONSULTING GROUP
405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300
Chicago, IL 60654
www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com>
blog.lyonscg.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77

VISIT BOOTH #112 TO WIN
A COMPLIMENTARY UX ASSESSMENT

[cid:image001.png@01CA316B.4052A460]




-- 
Some people ask for gifts here.
I just want you to buy an Indie CD for yourself:
http://cdbaby.com/search/from/lynch

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] ZendCon Pass

[Richard L. <ce...@l-...>]

Naturally I got overwhelmed and didn't actually *DO* this yet.

So you have a few more hours to get your name in the hat... :-)

On Fri, August 28, 2009 3:11 pm, Richard Lynch wrote:
> Okay, let's make this simple.
>
> If you want in the raffle for the ZendCon pass, reply off-list to THIS
> email.
> http://ZendCon.com/
>
> I'll draw emails Tuesday night from a hat, and you win.
>
> One entry per person. You have to have participated in some way
> previously with the group.
> I.e., showed up at a meeting or posted to this list.
>
> --
> Some people ask for gifts here.
> I just want you to buy an Indie CD for yourself:
> http://cdbaby.com/search/from/lynch
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
> 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
> focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>


-- 
Some people ask for gifts here.
I just want you to buy an Indie CD for yourself:
http://cdbaby.com/search/from/lynch

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] object variable naming

[Richard L. <ce...@l-...>]

You could write a __get() and no __set but some other "secret" way to
change a value, and achieve something like a read-only member var.

As far as $profile goes, I'd suggest:
$subscriber = new Subscriber();
$subscriber_profile = $subscriber->getValue('profile');
$profile = new Profile($subscriber_profile);

is probably the way to go.

You most likely won't be using $subscriber_profile for long...

Another option is to create a method on Subscriber that returns a
Profile object, and don't ever mess directly with the value at all.

On Wed, September 2, 2009 11:33 am, Arlo Leach wrote:
>> It'd be really confusing code with those similar names.
>
>> Yes, it is kind of crazy: you're deliberately obfuscating your own
>> code.
>> Using the same name two different ways is shooting yourself in the
>> foot.  I'm a lousy typist myself, but it would never occur to me to
>> try something like this.
>
> All right, thanks for the sanity check. I could to something like
> $objProfile or $obj_profile, but I've always stayed away from that
> Hungarian
> notation kind of approach.
>
> The most common situation I've run into is that one variable name
> describes
> both an object and a member in a related class. For example, I have
> subscribers and some subscribers have profiles. Here's a
> super-simplified
> example:
>
> $subscriber = new Subscriber();
> $profile = $subscriber->getValue("profile");
> $profile = new Profile($profile); // oops, now $profile is ambiguous
>
> Since the profile member in the Subscriber class is a pointer to a
> separate
> Profile record, I guess most people would call that $profile_id.
> That's
> almost like Hungarian notation to me and I've never had the need to do
> that
> before. But now that I'm using objects a lot, my namespace has to
> accommodate one more type of data than before, so something has to
> give.
>
> By the way, I could just access $subscriber->profile rather than
> creating a
> local variable for $profile, but I like making the class members
> protected
> so I'm not tempted to set them directly and bypass any internal
> functionality in the class. If I could make the members read-only,
> that
> would work -- but PHP doesn't offer that, right?
>
> Cheers,
> -Arlo
>
> _______________________________
>
> Arlo Leach
> 773.769.6106
> http://arlomedia.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
> 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
> focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>


-- 
Some people ask for gifts here.
I just want you to buy an Indie CD for yourself:
http://cdbaby.com/search/from/lynch

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] object variable naming

[David R. <da...@ro...>]

>
> $subscriber = new Subscriber();
> $profile = $subscriber->getValue("profile");
> $profile = new Profile($profile); // oops, now $profile is ambiguous
>
> By the way, I could just access $subscriber->profile rather than creating a
> local variable for $profile, but I like making the class members protected
> so I'm not tempted to set them directly and bypass any internal
> functionality in the class. If I could make the members read-only, that
> would work -- but PHP doesn't offer that, right?
>

For situations like this, I'll use the __get($name) magic function.
http://us2.php.net/manual/en/language.oop5.overloading.php#language.oop5.overloading.members

This allows you to set a member variable as Private, and yet still allow
$object->readonly syntax and functionality.
Additionally, you easily avoid having to worry about ambiguous variable
names when you only really wanted to get a read-only copy of a member
variable.

Hope that helps.
-Rovani

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] object variable naming

[Arlo L. <ar...@ar...>]

Hi Andy,

> both names are in upper case.  In the second example you gave:
> 
> $profile = new Profile()
> 
> they have different case so it should work.

Oh, the conflict isn't between the variable and the class name, but between
the variable that I assign the object instance to and a regular variable I
might have already created with the same name.

All my class names start with uppercase; that's in 100% of the style guides
I've seen, so I went with that. It's just the local variables I'm thinking
about now.

Basically now that I've introduced objects into my programming, I'm dealing
with a new set of variables in each script, and I need to expand my naming
standards to accommodate them.

Cheers,
-Arlo

_______________________________

Arlo Leach
773.769.6106
http://arlomedia.com

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] object variable naming

[Andy C. <bng...@gm...>]

As much as I might not approve of the last example you gave, it should
work.  In your example in your first message:

$Profile = new Profile();

both names are in upper case.  In the second example you gave:

$profile = new Profile()

they have different case so it should work.

Just an observation.  Do what you gotta do.  PEACE!!!!!,

Andy Carlson
Carlson Technology
(815) 200-9303
41° 22' 35" N  89° 28' 10" W
---------------------------------------------------
"Man's conquest of Nature turns out, in the moment of its consummation, to
be Nature's conquest of Man." -- C.S. Lewis
---------------------------------------------------
"The ubiquity of the Internet is more important than the technology of the
Internet" -- Jeff Bezos
---------------------------------------------------
try { succeed(); } catch(E) { tryAgain(); } finally { readManual(); }


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Arlo Leach <ar...@ar...> wrote:

> > It'd be really confusing code with those similar names.
>
> > Yes, it is kind of crazy: you're deliberately obfuscating your own code.
> > Using the same name two different ways is shooting yourself in the
> > foot.  I'm a lousy typist myself, but it would never occur to me to
> > try something like this.
>
> All right, thanks for the sanity check. I could to something like
> $objProfile or $obj_profile, but I've always stayed away from that
> Hungarian
> notation kind of approach.
>
> The most common situation I've run into is that one variable name describes
> both an object and a member in a related class. For example, I have
> subscribers and some subscribers have profiles. Here's a super-simplified
> example:
>
> $subscriber = new Subscriber();
> $profile = $subscriber->getValue("profile");
> $profile = new Profile($profile); // oops, now $profile is ambiguous
>
> Since the profile member in the Subscriber class is a pointer to a separate
> Profile record, I guess most people would call that $profile_id. That's
> almost like Hungarian notation to me and I've never had the need to do that
> before. But now that I'm using objects a lot, my namespace has to
> accommodate one more type of data than before, so something has to give.
>
> By the way, I could just access $subscriber->profile rather than creating a
> local variable for $profile, but I like making the class members protected
> so I'm not tempted to set them directly and bypass any internal
> functionality in the class. If I could make the members read-only, that
> would work -- but PHP doesn't offer that, right?
>
> Cheers,
> -Arlo
>
> _______________________________
>
> Arlo Leach
> 773.769.6106
> http://arlomedia.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] object variable naming

[Arlo L. <ar...@ar...>]

> It'd be really confusing code with those similar names.

> Yes, it is kind of crazy: you're deliberately obfuscating your own code.
> Using the same name two different ways is shooting yourself in the
> foot.  I'm a lousy typist myself, but it would never occur to me to
> try something like this.

All right, thanks for the sanity check. I could to something like
$objProfile or $obj_profile, but I've always stayed away from that Hungarian
notation kind of approach.

The most common situation I've run into is that one variable name describes
both an object and a member in a related class. For example, I have
subscribers and some subscribers have profiles. Here's a super-simplified
example:

$subscriber = new Subscriber();
$profile = $subscriber->getValue("profile");
$profile = new Profile($profile); // oops, now $profile is ambiguous

Since the profile member in the Subscriber class is a pointer to a separate
Profile record, I guess most people would call that $profile_id. That's
almost like Hungarian notation to me and I've never had the need to do that
before. But now that I'm using objects a lot, my namespace has to
accommodate one more type of data than before, so something has to give.

By the way, I could just access $subscriber->profile rather than creating a
local variable for $profile, but I like making the class members protected
so I'm not tempted to set them directly and bypass any internal
functionality in the class. If I could make the members read-only, that
would work -- but PHP doesn't offer that, right?

Cheers,
-Arlo

_______________________________

Arlo Leach
773.769.6106
http://arlomedia.com

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] object variable naming

[Neil R. <Nei...@rc...>]

Yes, it is kind of crazy: you're deliberately obfuscating your own code.
Using the same name two different ways is shooting yourself in the 
foot.  I'm a lousy typist myself, but it would never occur to me to 
try something like this.

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. 
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by 
definition, not smart enough to debug it.
  -- Brian Kernighan


At 02:48 AM 9/2/2009, Arlo Leach <ar...@ar...> wrote:

>Anyway, here's another one. Does anyone think this kind of notation is
>crazy?
>
>$Profile = new Profile(); // object variable starts with uppercase


Neil
--
Nei...@rc...

"Wait a minute, Juanita.  This Snow Crash thing -- is it a virus, a 
drug, or a religion?"
Juanita shrugs.  "What's the difference?"
  -- _Snow Crash_, Neal Stephenson

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] object variable naming

[Andy C. <bng...@gm...>]

At the risk of being the programming nazi, I'd recommend renaming either the
variable or the class (such as ProfileObj).

It'd be really confusing code with those similar names.

Not sure what degree of code you are working with, but that's my 2 cents and
I suspect it would eliminate any duplicate identifier errors.

What exactly is the error you're getting?

Thanks,

Andy Carlson
Carlson Technology
(815) 200-9303
41° 22' 35" N  89° 28' 10" W
---------------------------------------------------
"Man's conquest of Nature turns out, in the moment of its consummation, to
be Nature's conquest of Man." -- C.S. Lewis
---------------------------------------------------
"The ubiquity of the Internet is more important than the technology of the
Internet" -- Jeff Bezos
---------------------------------------------------
try { succeed(); } catch(E) { tryAgain(); } finally { readManual(); }


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:48 AM, Arlo Leach <ar...@ar...> wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I guess my last question stumped you! Or confused you. Or you're all on
> vacation this week.
>
> Anyway, here's another one. Does anyone think this kind of notation is
> crazy?
>
> $Profile = new Profile(); // object variable starts with uppercase
>
> I've been running into some trouble where I assign an object to a variable,
> but then I want to use the same variable for a local value, and I'd like a
> standardized way to keep object variables separate. But I don't want to do
> something that another developer would find unintuitive or annoying if they
> had to work with my code.
>
> I've also considered something like this:
>
> $objects["profile"] = new Profile(); // all object variables are collected
> in an array
>
> But that's a lot slower to type.
>
> Thanks,
> -Arlo
>
> _______________________________
>
> Arlo Leach
> 773.769.6106
> http://arlomedia.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus
> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>

[chiPHPug-discuss] object variable naming

[Arlo L. <ar...@ar...>]

Hi folks,

I guess my last question stumped you! Or confused you. Or you're all on
vacation this week.

Anyway, here's another one. Does anyone think this kind of notation is
crazy?

$Profile = new Profile(); // object variable starts with uppercase

I've been running into some trouble where I assign an object to a variable,
but then I want to use the same variable for a local value, and I'd like a
standardized way to keep object variables separate. But I don't want to do
something that another developer would find unintuitive or annoying if they
had to work with my code.

I've also considered something like this:

$objects["profile"] = new Profile(); // all object variables are collected
in an array

But that's a lot slower to type.

Thanks,
-Arlo

_______________________________

Arlo Leach
773.769.6106
http://arlomedia.com