Re: [Audacity-quality] Time track copy-paste and aup3 import

[James C. <jam...@gm...>]

Thank you.  I will have a proper look at it tomorrow.

On Tue, 2 Feb 2021 at 20:29, Paul Licameli <pau...@gm...> wrote:

> I have done it at commit eb888bb03b0a557aab0b9ae7ac07ae61eee720ba
>
> Time to review and test, then:  Time tracks never cut or copy; import of
> .aup3 with TimeTrack works; and if TimeTrack was already present, it is
> (quietly) replaced, not pasted into, by the import.
>
> PRL
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 2:23 PM James Crook <jam...@gm...>
> wrote:
>
>> Paul can you apply your update, with the small fix for those envelope
>> points?
>> I'd like this to be in in time for string freeze, so that it goes through
>> to release.
>>
>> --James.
>>
>> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 19:49, Steve Fiddle <ste...@gm...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 17:47, Paul Licameli <pau...@gm...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 12:31 PM Peter Sampson <
>>>> pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 5:25 PM Robert Hänggi <aar...@gm...>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to inform you about the Reaper behaviour:
>>>>>> It asks you on import if the tempo should be imported as well. This
>>>>>> applies mainly to MIDI tracks.
>>>>>> However, it is the nearest to time tracks (apart from the master play
>>>>>> rate envelope which is treated like all other envelopes like volume,
>>>>>> pan, width, pitch).
>>>>>> In essence, if you want that the user can decide, ask him directly and
>>>>>> don't presume that he knows that he has first to exclude the other
>>>>>> time track from the project to be imported in order to keep the new
>>>>>> one.
>>>>>> Common sense and more user friendly imho.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I like Robert;s thinking here - asking the user, in the situation
>>>>> where they have a Time Track
>>>>> on both projects, which one they want to keep sounds eminently
>>>>> sensible ad as Robert
>>>>> says user-friendly (also more "discoverable" - removing the chance of
>>>>> nasty surprises
>>>>> when the wrong one gets used).
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'd say no for right now and I think RM agrees.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree. I think it's a good idea, but we should be close to string
>>> freeze and I don't think this is urgent.
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Remember this is incidental to the more important white-box review of
>>>> Unitary.
>>>>
>>>> PRL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 30/01/2021, Peter Sampson <pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>>>>> > Looking at this page:
>>>>>> > https://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Time_Tracks
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I see nothing there about the ability (or expectation) to Cut&Paste
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > Time Track or sections of it.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > So the ability to do so is either a cunning and tricksy Easter Egg
>>>>>> - or
>>>>>> > it's a bug, I'm thinking.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > And note that this is different from the ability to import a Time
>>>>>> Track as
>>>>>> > part of an imported project
>>>>>> > which is to be allowed.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Peter.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Peter.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:56 PM Peter Sampson <
>>>>>> > pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> BTW although one can edit the Time Track with Cut&Paste, albeit
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> >> through associated audio
>>>>>> >> we do have an inconsistency as the Time Track does nor
>>>>>> expand/contract
>>>>>> >> when the associated
>>>>>> >> audio is modified with the Change Speed effect.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Peter.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:54 PM Peter Sampson <
>>>>>> >> pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:47 PM Steve Fiddle <
>>>>>> ste...@gm...>
>>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 16:32, Peter Sampson <
>>>>>> >>>> pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:21 PM Steve Fiddle
>>>>>> >>>>> <ste...@gm...>
>>>>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> Copy and Paste for time  tracks sounds to me like a major can
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> >>>>>> worms. Also, we have recorded precisely zero requests for this
>>>>>> >>>>>> feature.
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> I am strongly of the opinion that we should not implement copy
>>>>>> /
>>>>>> >>>>>> paste
>>>>>> >>>>>> for time tracks until we have a much better implementation of
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> >>>>>> tracks.
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> It's not a question of whether we implement or not - you can
>>>>>> already
>>>>>> >>>>> do
>>>>>> >>>>> it  - but you need to select in the audio
>>>>>> >>>>> I only tried this with a single audio track and a time track.
>>>>>> I've no
>>>>>> >>>>> idea how it works
>>>>>> >>>>> a) in a multi-track project - with all or just some tracks with
>>>>>> >>>>> selected audio
>>>>>> >>>>> b) when some tracks are above and some below the Time track
>>>>>> >>>>> c) what the interaction is with Sync-Lock (or other settings)
>>>>>> >>>>> d) other use cases I haven't thought of yet.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> Regarding  importing a project, I think that if both the
>>>>>> current
>>>>>> >>>>>> project and the imported project have time tracks, the
>>>>>> imported time
>>>>>> >>>>>> track
>>>>>> >>>>>> should replace  the current time track. (If the user prefers
>>>>>> to retain
>>>>>> >>>>>> the
>>>>>> >>>>>> current time track, then they need to remove the time track
>>>>>> from the
>>>>>> >>>>>> project  that they intend to import.)
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I think it should be the other way around.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> If it is the other way round, then either it is impossible to
>>>>>> import a
>>>>>> >>>> time track, or we have some cases where a time track can be
>>>>>> imported
>>>>>> >>>> and
>>>>>> >>>> some cases where it cannot.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> On the other hand, if an imported time track overwrites the
>>>>>> current
>>>>>> >>>> time
>>>>>> >>>> track (if present), then the user has control to either import a
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> >>>> track
>>>>>> >>>> or not. I'm in favour of allowing the user to make this decision
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> >>>> than prohibiting the import of time tracks or introducing
>>>>>> "special
>>>>>> >>>> case"
>>>>>> >>>> inconsistencies.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Good point,  I concede, I think you're right about this.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Peter.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>> Steve
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> If you are importing into a project that already has aTime
>>>>>> Track then
>>>>>> >>>>> I
>>>>>> >>>>> think that Time Track should be retained.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> If the user wants the imported Time Track to be used then they
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> >>>>> first delete the Time Track in the primary project.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> [image: image.png]
>>>>>> >>>>> Peter.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> Steve
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 15:52, Paul Licameli <
>>>>>> pau...@gm...>
>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, please review these details.  Peter, maybe generate
>>>>>> some bug
>>>>>> >>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> How does copy and paste of time track work, and how should it?
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Short answer:  you can copy and paste time track points, even
>>>>>> into a
>>>>>> >>>>>>> project with an existing time track, though not all the
>>>>>> behavior is
>>>>>> >>>>>>> intuitive.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Question:  If you import an .aup3 project with a time track,
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> >>>>>>> that do the same as paste (pasting at time 0 and shifting
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> >>>>>>> control
>>>>>> >>>>>>> points right), or should it replace the old time track with a
>>>>>> new one
>>>>>> >>>>>>> (but
>>>>>> >>>>>>> maybe losing some of your data)?  James argues for the second
>>>>>> >>>>>>> solution, I'm
>>>>>> >>>>>>> not sure I agree.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> We need agreement on that to commit simplified code for aup3
>>>>>> import,
>>>>>> >>>>>>> reducing the amount of sqlite3 calls we need to maintain.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Details.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>    1. Make new project with a time track and some control
>>>>>> points,
>>>>>> >>>>>>>    and some generated sound
>>>>>> >>>>>>>    2. Select all Ctrl + A
>>>>>> >>>>>>>    3. Select time track and deselect wave track with Ctrl +
>>>>>> click
>>>>>> >>>>>>>    4. Try to copy - dialog box tells you to select some audio
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> That has been so at least since 2.3.1:  You can't copy if
>>>>>> only time
>>>>>> >>>>>>> track is selected.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> But, if time track is selected and another track -- then is it
>>>>>> >>>>>>> copied
>>>>>> >>>>>>> to clipboard?  Since at least 2.3.1, yes, because then
>>>>>> pasting into
>>>>>> >>>>>>> another
>>>>>> >>>>>>> project makes a time track.  So a time track IS copyable.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> But in 2.3.1, the time track points were lost.  2.3.2 changed
>>>>>> that.
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Time track points may be inserted into a time track that
>>>>>> already
>>>>>> >>>>>>> exists and
>>>>>> >>>>>>> has other points.  There may be discontinuities at the edges
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> >>>>>>> paste,
>>>>>> >>>>>>> arguably correct or not.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also notice that if you have cut time & wave tracks, then
>>>>>> paste
>>>>>> >>>>>>> into a new project with only a time track -- then, whether
>>>>>> the wave
>>>>>> >>>>>>> track
>>>>>> >>>>>>> pastes or not, depends whether the time track is selected or
>>>>>> not.  If
>>>>>> >>>>>>> it
>>>>>> >>>>>>> was, I only paste time track.  Undo, click background, paste
>>>>>> -- then
>>>>>> >>>>>>> both
>>>>>> >>>>>>> paste.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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