Re: [Audacity-quality] wx3.1.1, Accessibility show stoppers?

[Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@gm...>]

On 15 April 2018 at 08:57, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
> On 4/14/2018 4:35 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>
>> Thanks James
>>
>> It works now, that is, no error when navigating the modules preferences.
>>
>> Will all those three combo boxes be in the regular Audacity release?
>
>
> mod-<something> are always optional modules, so what is in the list will
> vary from user to user.
>
> We almost certainly will ship mod-script-pipe with Audacity 2.3.0 (on all
> platforms)
> We won't ship mod-null.  It is only for developers, to give them an almost
> empty mod-<something> to work with.
> I'll take advice from others as to whether to ship mod-nyq-bench with 2.3.0.
> If it does not come with Audacity, it will be a separate download.

Last time I tried mod-nyq-bench there were some major problems with it.

Steve

>
> --James.
>
>
>
>
>
>> I ask because otherwise the same issue could pop up.
>>
>> On 14/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've just fixed mod-script-pipe in release builds.  Thanks for letting
>>> me know it was broken.
>>> --James.
>>>
>>> On 4/13/2018 10:55 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks David
>>>> something new learnt, group boxes are buttons...
>>>>
>>>> The error isn't directly related to the Python code change.
>>>> It happens only if I tab from  the "Modules" category in preferences.
>>>>
>>>> I can still not build the mod-pipe-script because the release wants
>>>> the debug version of wxbase31 lib.
>>>> As a consequence, the entry for this module is empty, i.e. a None-type
>>>> object and it is impossible to replace '&' with '' on nothing...
>>>>
>>>> All should be fine once the module is built.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 13/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 13 April 2018 at 16:53, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>> I was just about to make the pull request.
>>>>>> However, there are severe issues with the preferences dialog in 2.3.0.
>>>>>> It seems that almost everything is a "Button" (as window class name),
>>>>>> even groupings...
>>>>>> I know that this doesn't affect the actual request but it gives me
>>>>>> nevertheless an uncomfortable feeling.
>>>>>> I'd like to have the assurance that this can be solved in time.
>>>>>>
>>>>> controls which have the class button include: buttons, radio buttons,
>>>>> check
>>>>> boxes, and group boxes. See this list of button styles, which includes,
>>>>> for
>>>>> example, BS_GROUPBOX:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb775951(v=vs.85).aspx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> You can test for buttons in NVDA by:
>>>>>> - opening the preferences
>>>>>> - navigating up to the preferences window (NVDA+NumPad 8)
>>>>>> - opening the console (Control+NVDA+Z)
>>>>>> - entering
>>>>>> [x.name for x in focus.recursiveDescendants if
>>>>>> x.windowClassName==u"Button"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The error I'm getting with the changed appModule is that the name of
>>>>>> <None-Type> objects is attempted to be changed.
>>>>>>
>>>>> What are the precise steps to reproduce that error.
>>>>> I'm slightly surprised that you are getting such an error, because in
>>>>> changing that one line of the script, we are not changing which objects
>>>>> have their name changed, only what the name is changed to.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that we need some further testing.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, we need to be sure that the change works :).
>>>>>
>>>>> David.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Audacity we do ask people making pull requests to talk with us on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> devel list.
>>>>>>> That can remove the delay.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is often a reason for the delay, for example no one to test the
>>>>>>> pull request on the proposed (new) platform, or that it affects one
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the lib-src files, which are upstream and which we are reluctant to
>>>>>>> modify.  For example there was a delay in applying some warning
>>>>>>> fixes.
>>>>>>> When the warning fixes were restricted to just our libraries the pull
>>>>>>> request was pulled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/13/2018 9:21 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi David
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've opened an issue for this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8178
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hope that one of the developers will do the change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The problem with pull requests for NVDA (currently 59) is the same
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> those for Audacity, they are delayed and delayed until they are not
>>>>>>>> valid any more ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11 April 2018 at 14:20, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> With my RM hat on, I'm asking about Accessibility on Windows with
>>>>>>>>>>> wx3.1.1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Overall, is using wx3.1.1 better or worse for Accessibility than
>>>>>>>>>>> wx3.0.2?  I'm hoping the answer is that it is at least moderately
>>>>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think so.
>>>>>>>>>> Dialog titles and groups are now correctly announced in NVDA.
>>>>>>>>>> Buttons are not quite right because the appmodule of NVDA uses the
>>>>>>>>>> window text, rather than the accessible name (a long forgotten
>>>>>>>>>> workaround).
>>>>>>>>>> This means for instance that the help buttons are announced as "?"
>>>>>>>>>> instead of "Help".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wasn't aware of this problem, but I've fixed it simply by setting
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> label. However, this doesn't reduce the need to get nvda's audacity
>>>>>>>>> appmodule changed. For example, NVDA doesn't read the more helpful
>>>>>>>>> accessibility names of the radio buttons in the keyboard category
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> Preferences.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do let me know of any other names that have disappeared since the
>>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3.1.1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> David.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I will send a pull request to NV Access for that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The toolbars are still no toolbars and their title not announced
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> changing to them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Object Navigation is worse(Apart from being illogical).
>>>>>>>>>> This is what I get when I navigate once up and then to the left.
>>>>>>>>>> Track 1  Select On  row focused  selected  1 of 1
>>>>>>>>>> TrackView  table
>>>>>>>>>> Length 00 h 00 m 10.000 s
>>>>>>>>>> Start 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>>> Audio Position 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>>> Snap To  combo box  Off  collapsed
>>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>>> Project Rate (Hz)  combo box  44100  collapsed
>>>>>>>>>> Show  combo box  Start and Length of Selection  collapsed
>>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>>> Audio Position
>>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>>> Snap-To
>>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>>> Project Rate (Hz)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Note how the window labels are separated from the controls.
>>>>>>>>>> Narrator does not show this separation (scan mode).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But as I said earlier, no show stopper.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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> Audacity-quality@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality

Re: [Audacity-quality] wx3.1.1, Accessibility show stoppers?

[James Crook <crookj@in...>]

On 4/14/2018 4:35 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
> Thanks James
>
> It works now, that is, no error when navigating the modules preferences.
>
> Will all those three combo boxes be in the regular Audacity release?

mod-<something> are always optional modules, so what is in the list will 
vary from user to user.

We almost certainly will ship mod-script-pipe with Audacity 2.3.0 (on 
all platforms)
We won't ship mod-null.  It is only for developers, to give them an 
almost empty mod-<something> to work with.
I'll take advice from others as to whether to ship mod-nyq-bench with 
2.3.0.  If it does not come with Audacity, it will be a separate download.

--James.




> I ask because otherwise the same issue could pop up.
>
> On 14/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>> I've just fixed mod-script-pipe in release builds.  Thanks for letting
>> me know it was broken.
>> --James.
>>
>> On 4/13/2018 10:55 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>> Thanks David
>>> something new learnt, group boxes are buttons...
>>>
>>> The error isn't directly related to the Python code change.
>>> It happens only if I tab from  the "Modules" category in preferences.
>>>
>>> I can still not build the mod-pipe-script because the release wants
>>> the debug version of wxbase31 lib.
>>> As a consequence, the entry for this module is empty, i.e. a None-type
>>> object and it is impossible to replace '&' with '' on nothing...
>>>
>>> All should be fine once the module is built.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>>>> On 13 April 2018 at 16:53, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> I was just about to make the pull request.
>>>>> However, there are severe issues with the preferences dialog in 2.3.0.
>>>>> It seems that almost everything is a "Button" (as window class name),
>>>>> even groupings...
>>>>> I know that this doesn't affect the actual request but it gives me
>>>>> nevertheless an uncomfortable feeling.
>>>>> I'd like to have the assurance that this can be solved in time.
>>>>>
>>>> controls which have the class button include: buttons, radio buttons,
>>>> check
>>>> boxes, and group boxes. See this list of button styles, which includes,
>>>> for
>>>> example, BS_GROUPBOX:
>>>> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb775951(v=vs.85).aspx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You can test for buttons in NVDA by:
>>>>> - opening the preferences
>>>>> - navigating up to the preferences window (NVDA+NumPad 8)
>>>>> - opening the console (Control+NVDA+Z)
>>>>> - entering
>>>>> [x.name for x in focus.recursiveDescendants if
>>>>> x.windowClassName==u"Button"]
>>>>>
>>>>> The error I'm getting with the changed appModule is that the name of
>>>>> <None-Type> objects is attempted to be changed.
>>>>>
>>>> What are the precise steps to reproduce that error.
>>>> I'm slightly surprised that you are getting such an error, because in
>>>> changing that one line of the script, we are not changing which objects
>>>> have their name changed, only what the name is changed to.
>>>>
>>>>> I think that we need some further testing.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, we need to be sure that the change works :).
>>>>
>>>> David.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>>> On Audacity we do ask people making pull requests to talk with us on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> devel list.
>>>>>> That can remove the delay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is often a reason for the delay, for example no one to test the
>>>>>> pull request on the proposed (new) platform, or that it affects one of
>>>>>> the lib-src files, which are upstream and which we are reluctant to
>>>>>> modify.  For example there was a delay in applying some warning fixes.
>>>>>> When the warning fixes were restricted to just our libraries the pull
>>>>>> request was pulled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/13/2018 9:21 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've opened an issue for this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8178
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope that one of the developers will do the change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem with pull requests for NVDA (currently 59) is the same as
>>>>>>> those for Audacity, they are delayed and delayed until they are not
>>>>>>> valid any more ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11 April 2018 at 14:20, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 11/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> With my RM hat on, I'm asking about Accessibility on Windows with
>>>>>>>>>> wx3.1.1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Overall, is using wx3.1.1 better or worse for Accessibility than
>>>>>>>>>> wx3.0.2?  I'm hoping the answer is that it is at least moderately
>>>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think so.
>>>>>>>>> Dialog titles and groups are now correctly announced in NVDA.
>>>>>>>>> Buttons are not quite right because the appmodule of NVDA uses the
>>>>>>>>> window text, rather than the accessible name (a long forgotten
>>>>>>>>> workaround).
>>>>>>>>> This means for instance that the help buttons are announced as "?"
>>>>>>>>> instead of "Help".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wasn't aware of this problem, but I've fixed it simply by setting
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> label. However, this doesn't reduce the need to get nvda's audacity
>>>>>>>> appmodule changed. For example, NVDA doesn't read the more helpful
>>>>>>>> accessibility names of the radio buttons in the keyboard category in
>>>>>>>> Preferences.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do let me know of any other names that have disappeared since the
>>>>>>>> move
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> 3.1.1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I will send a pull request to NV Access for that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The toolbars are still no toolbars and their title not announced on
>>>>>>>>> changing to them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Object Navigation is worse(Apart from being illogical).
>>>>>>>>> This is what I get when I navigate once up and then to the left.
>>>>>>>>> Track 1  Select On  row focused  selected  1 of 1
>>>>>>>>> TrackView  table
>>>>>>>>> Length 00 h 00 m 10.000 s
>>>>>>>>> Start 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Audio Position 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Snap To  combo box  Off  collapsed
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Project Rate (Hz)  combo box  44100  collapsed
>>>>>>>>> Show  combo box  Start and Length of Selection  collapsed
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Audio Position
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Snap-To
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Project Rate (Hz)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Note how the window labels are separated from the controls.
>>>>>>>>> Narrator does not show this separation (scan mode).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But as I said earlier, no show stopper.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>>>>>

Re: [Audacity-quality] wx3.1.1, Accessibility show stoppers?

[Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@gm...>]

Here is the Pull Request to NVDA:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/8181

Cheers
Robert

On 14/04/2018, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
> Thanks James
>
> It works now, that is, no error when navigating the modules preferences.
>
> Will all those three combo boxes be in the regular Audacity release?
> I ask because otherwise the same issue could pop up.
>
> On 14/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>> I've just fixed mod-script-pipe in release builds.  Thanks for letting
>> me know it was broken.
>> --James.
>>
>> On 4/13/2018 10:55 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>> Thanks David
>>> something new learnt, group boxes are buttons...
>>>
>>> The error isn't directly related to the Python code change.
>>> It happens only if I tab from  the "Modules" category in preferences.
>>>
>>> I can still not build the mod-pipe-script because the release wants
>>> the debug version of wxbase31 lib.
>>> As a consequence, the entry for this module is empty, i.e. a None-type
>>> object and it is impossible to replace '&' with '' on nothing...
>>>
>>> All should be fine once the module is built.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>>>> On 13 April 2018 at 16:53, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> I was just about to make the pull request.
>>>>> However, there are severe issues with the preferences dialog in 2.3.0.
>>>>> It seems that almost everything is a "Button" (as window class name),
>>>>> even groupings...
>>>>> I know that this doesn't affect the actual request but it gives me
>>>>> nevertheless an uncomfortable feeling.
>>>>> I'd like to have the assurance that this can be solved in time.
>>>>>
>>>> controls which have the class button include: buttons, radio buttons,
>>>> check
>>>> boxes, and group boxes. See this list of button styles, which includes,
>>>> for
>>>> example, BS_GROUPBOX:
>>>> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb775951(v=vs.85).aspx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You can test for buttons in NVDA by:
>>>>> - opening the preferences
>>>>> - navigating up to the preferences window (NVDA+NumPad 8)
>>>>> - opening the console (Control+NVDA+Z)
>>>>> - entering
>>>>> [x.name for x in focus.recursiveDescendants if
>>>>> x.windowClassName==u"Button"]
>>>>>
>>>>> The error I'm getting with the changed appModule is that the name of
>>>>> <None-Type> objects is attempted to be changed.
>>>>>
>>>> What are the precise steps to reproduce that error.
>>>> I'm slightly surprised that you are getting such an error, because in
>>>> changing that one line of the script, we are not changing which objects
>>>> have their name changed, only what the name is changed to.
>>>>
>>>>> I think that we need some further testing.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, we need to be sure that the change works :).
>>>>
>>>> David.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>>> On Audacity we do ask people making pull requests to talk with us on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> devel list.
>>>>>> That can remove the delay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is often a reason for the delay, for example no one to test the
>>>>>> pull request on the proposed (new) platform, or that it affects one
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the lib-src files, which are upstream and which we are reluctant to
>>>>>> modify.  For example there was a delay in applying some warning
>>>>>> fixes.
>>>>>> When the warning fixes were restricted to just our libraries the pull
>>>>>> request was pulled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/13/2018 9:21 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've opened an issue for this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8178
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope that one of the developers will do the change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem with pull requests for NVDA (currently 59) is the same
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> those for Audacity, they are delayed and delayed until they are not
>>>>>>> valid any more ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11 April 2018 at 14:20, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 11/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> With my RM hat on, I'm asking about Accessibility on Windows with
>>>>>>>>>> wx3.1.1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Overall, is using wx3.1.1 better or worse for Accessibility than
>>>>>>>>>> wx3.0.2?  I'm hoping the answer is that it is at least moderately
>>>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think so.
>>>>>>>>> Dialog titles and groups are now correctly announced in NVDA.
>>>>>>>>> Buttons are not quite right because the appmodule of NVDA uses the
>>>>>>>>> window text, rather than the accessible name (a long forgotten
>>>>>>>>> workaround).
>>>>>>>>> This means for instance that the help buttons are announced as "?"
>>>>>>>>> instead of "Help".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wasn't aware of this problem, but I've fixed it simply by setting
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> label. However, this doesn't reduce the need to get nvda's audacity
>>>>>>>> appmodule changed. For example, NVDA doesn't read the more helpful
>>>>>>>> accessibility names of the radio buttons in the keyboard category
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> Preferences.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do let me know of any other names that have disappeared since the
>>>>>>>> move
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> 3.1.1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I will send a pull request to NV Access for that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The toolbars are still no toolbars and their title not announced
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> changing to them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Object Navigation is worse(Apart from being illogical).
>>>>>>>>> This is what I get when I navigate once up and then to the left.
>>>>>>>>> Track 1  Select On  row focused  selected  1 of 1
>>>>>>>>> TrackView  table
>>>>>>>>> Length 00 h 00 m 10.000 s
>>>>>>>>> Start 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Audio Position 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Snap To  combo box  Off  collapsed
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Project Rate (Hz)  combo box  44100  collapsed
>>>>>>>>> Show  combo box  Start and Length of Selection  collapsed
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Audio Position
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Snap-To
>>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>>> Project Rate (Hz)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Note how the window labels are separated from the controls.
>>>>>>>>> Narrator does not show this separation (scan mode).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But as I said earlier, no show stopper.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] wx3.1.1, Accessibility show stoppers?

[Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@gm...>]

Thanks James

It works now, that is, no error when navigating the modules preferences.

Will all those three combo boxes be in the regular Audacity release?
I ask because otherwise the same issue could pop up.

On 14/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
> I've just fixed mod-script-pipe in release builds.  Thanks for letting
> me know it was broken.
> --James.
>
> On 4/13/2018 10:55 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> Thanks David
>> something new learnt, group boxes are buttons...
>>
>> The error isn't directly related to the Python code change.
>> It happens only if I tab from  the "Modules" category in preferences.
>>
>> I can still not build the mod-pipe-script because the release wants
>> the debug version of wxbase31 lib.
>> As a consequence, the entry for this module is empty, i.e. a None-type
>> object and it is impossible to replace '&' with '' on nothing...
>>
>> All should be fine once the module is built.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>>> On 13 April 2018 at 16:53, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>> I was just about to make the pull request.
>>>> However, there are severe issues with the preferences dialog in 2.3.0.
>>>> It seems that almost everything is a "Button" (as window class name),
>>>> even groupings...
>>>> I know that this doesn't affect the actual request but it gives me
>>>> nevertheless an uncomfortable feeling.
>>>> I'd like to have the assurance that this can be solved in time.
>>>>
>>> controls which have the class button include: buttons, radio buttons,
>>> check
>>> boxes, and group boxes. See this list of button styles, which includes,
>>> for
>>> example, BS_GROUPBOX:
>>> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb775951(v=vs.85).aspx
>>>
>>>
>>>> You can test for buttons in NVDA by:
>>>> - opening the preferences
>>>> - navigating up to the preferences window (NVDA+NumPad 8)
>>>> - opening the console (Control+NVDA+Z)
>>>> - entering
>>>> [x.name for x in focus.recursiveDescendants if
>>>> x.windowClassName==u"Button"]
>>>>
>>>> The error I'm getting with the changed appModule is that the name of
>>>> <None-Type> objects is attempted to be changed.
>>>>
>>> What are the precise steps to reproduce that error.
>>> I'm slightly surprised that you are getting such an error, because in
>>> changing that one line of the script, we are not changing which objects
>>> have their name changed, only what the name is changed to.
>>>
>>>> I think that we need some further testing.
>>>>
>>> Yes, we need to be sure that the change works :).
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>> On Audacity we do ask people making pull requests to talk with us on
>>>>> the
>>>>> devel list.
>>>>> That can remove the delay.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is often a reason for the delay, for example no one to test the
>>>>> pull request on the proposed (new) platform, or that it affects one of
>>>>> the lib-src files, which are upstream and which we are reluctant to
>>>>> modify.  For example there was a delay in applying some warning fixes.
>>>>> When the warning fixes were restricted to just our libraries the pull
>>>>> request was pulled.
>>>>>
>>>>> --James.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/13/2018 9:21 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>>> Hi David
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've opened an issue for this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8178
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope that one of the developers will do the change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem with pull requests for NVDA (currently 59) is the same as
>>>>>> those for Audacity, they are delayed and delayed until they are not
>>>>>> valid any more ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11 April 2018 at 14:20, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> With my RM hat on, I'm asking about Accessibility on Windows with
>>>>>>>>> wx3.1.1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Overall, is using wx3.1.1 better or worse for Accessibility than
>>>>>>>>> wx3.0.2?  I'm hoping the answer is that it is at least moderately
>>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think so.
>>>>>>>> Dialog titles and groups are now correctly announced in NVDA.
>>>>>>>> Buttons are not quite right because the appmodule of NVDA uses the
>>>>>>>> window text, rather than the accessible name (a long forgotten
>>>>>>>> workaround).
>>>>>>>> This means for instance that the help buttons are announced as "?"
>>>>>>>> instead of "Help".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wasn't aware of this problem, but I've fixed it simply by setting
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> label. However, this doesn't reduce the need to get nvda's audacity
>>>>>>> appmodule changed. For example, NVDA doesn't read the more helpful
>>>>>>> accessibility names of the radio buttons in the keyboard category in
>>>>>>> Preferences.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do let me know of any other names that have disappeared since the
>>>>>>> move
>>>> to
>>>>>>> 3.1.1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will send a pull request to NV Access for that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The toolbars are still no toolbars and their title not announced on
>>>>>>>> changing to them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Object Navigation is worse(Apart from being illogical).
>>>>>>>> This is what I get when I navigate once up and then to the left.
>>>>>>>> Track 1  Select On  row focused  selected  1 of 1
>>>>>>>> TrackView  table
>>>>>>>> Length 00 h 00 m 10.000 s
>>>>>>>> Start 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>> Audio Position 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>> Snap To  combo box  Off  collapsed
>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>> Project Rate (Hz)  combo box  44100  collapsed
>>>>>>>> Show  combo box  Start and Length of Selection  collapsed
>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>> Audio Position
>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>> Snap-To
>>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>>> Project Rate (Hz)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Note how the window labels are separated from the controls.
>>>>>>>> Narrator does not show this separation (scan mode).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But as I said earlier, no show stopper.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> Audacity-quality@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> Audacity-quality@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] wx3.1.1, Accessibility show stoppers?

[James Crook <crookj@in...>]

I've just fixed mod-script-pipe in release builds.  Thanks for letting 
me know it was broken.
--James.

On 4/13/2018 10:55 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
> Thanks David
> something new learnt, group boxes are buttons...
>
> The error isn't directly related to the Python code change.
> It happens only if I tab from  the "Modules" category in preferences.
>
> I can still not build the mod-pipe-script because the release wants
> the debug version of wxbase31 lib.
> As a consequence, the entry for this module is empty, i.e. a None-type
> object and it is impossible to replace '&' with '' on nothing...
>
> All should be fine once the module is built.
>
> Cheers
> Robert
>
>
>
> On 13/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>> On 13 April 2018 at 16:53, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
>>> I was just about to make the pull request.
>>> However, there are severe issues with the preferences dialog in 2.3.0.
>>> It seems that almost everything is a "Button" (as window class name),
>>> even groupings...
>>> I know that this doesn't affect the actual request but it gives me
>>> nevertheless an uncomfortable feeling.
>>> I'd like to have the assurance that this can be solved in time.
>>>
>> controls which have the class button include: buttons, radio buttons, check
>> boxes, and group boxes. See this list of button styles, which includes, for
>> example, BS_GROUPBOX:
>> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb775951(v=vs.85).aspx
>>
>>
>>> You can test for buttons in NVDA by:
>>> - opening the preferences
>>> - navigating up to the preferences window (NVDA+NumPad 8)
>>> - opening the console (Control+NVDA+Z)
>>> - entering
>>> [x.name for x in focus.recursiveDescendants if
>>> x.windowClassName==u"Button"]
>>>
>>> The error I'm getting with the changed appModule is that the name of
>>> <None-Type> objects is attempted to be changed.
>>>
>> What are the precise steps to reproduce that error.
>> I'm slightly surprised that you are getting such an error, because in
>> changing that one line of the script, we are not changing which objects
>> have their name changed, only what the name is changed to.
>>
>>> I think that we need some further testing.
>>>
>> Yes, we need to be sure that the change works :).
>>
>> David.
>>
>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>> On Audacity we do ask people making pull requests to talk with us on
>>>> the
>>>> devel list.
>>>> That can remove the delay.
>>>>
>>>> There is often a reason for the delay, for example no one to test the
>>>> pull request on the proposed (new) platform, or that it affects one of
>>>> the lib-src files, which are upstream and which we are reluctant to
>>>> modify.  For example there was a delay in applying some warning fixes.
>>>> When the warning fixes were restricted to just our libraries the pull
>>>> request was pulled.
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>> On 4/13/2018 9:21 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>> Hi David
>>>>>
>>>>> I've opened an issue for this.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8178
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope that one of the developers will do the change.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem with pull requests for NVDA (currently 59) is the same as
>>>>> those for Audacity, they are delayed and delayed until they are not
>>>>> valid any more ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>>>>>> On 11 April 2018 at 14:20, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>> With my RM hat on, I'm asking about Accessibility on Windows with
>>>>>>>> wx3.1.1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Overall, is using wx3.1.1 better or worse for Accessibility than
>>>>>>>> wx3.0.2?  I'm hoping the answer is that it is at least moderately
>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think so.
>>>>>>> Dialog titles and groups are now correctly announced in NVDA.
>>>>>>> Buttons are not quite right because the appmodule of NVDA uses the
>>>>>>> window text, rather than the accessible name (a long forgotten
>>>>>>> workaround).
>>>>>>> This means for instance that the help buttons are announced as "?"
>>>>>>> instead of "Help".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wasn't aware of this problem, but I've fixed it simply by setting
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> label. However, this doesn't reduce the need to get nvda's audacity
>>>>>> appmodule changed. For example, NVDA doesn't read the more helpful
>>>>>> accessibility names of the radio buttons in the keyboard category in
>>>>>> Preferences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do let me know of any other names that have disappeared since the
>>>>>> move
>>> to
>>>>>> 3.1.1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will send a pull request to NV Access for that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The toolbars are still no toolbars and their title not announced on
>>>>>>> changing to them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Object Navigation is worse(Apart from being illogical).
>>>>>>> This is what I get when I navigate once up and then to the left.
>>>>>>> Track 1  Select On  row focused  selected  1 of 1
>>>>>>> TrackView  table
>>>>>>> Length 00 h 00 m 10.000 s
>>>>>>> Start 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>> Audio Position 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>> Snap To  combo box  Off  collapsed
>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>> Project Rate (Hz)  combo box  44100  collapsed
>>>>>>> Show  combo box  Start and Length of Selection  collapsed
>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>> Audio Position
>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>> Snap-To
>>>>>>> graphic
>>>>>>> Project Rate (Hz)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note how the window labels are separated from the controls.
>>>>>>> Narrator does not show this separation (scan mode).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But as I said earlier, no show stopper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> Audacity-quality@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality

Re: [Audacity-quality] wx3.1.1, Accessibility show stoppers?

[Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@gm...>]

Thanks David
something new learnt, group boxes are buttons...

The error isn't directly related to the Python code change.
It happens only if I tab from  the "Modules" category in preferences.

I can still not build the mod-pipe-script because the release wants
the debug version of wxbase31 lib.
As a consequence, the entry for this module is empty, i.e. a None-type
object and it is impossible to replace '&' with '' on nothing...

All should be fine once the module is built.

Cheers
Robert



On 13/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
> On 13 April 2018 at 16:53, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>> I was just about to make the pull request.
>> However, there are severe issues with the preferences dialog in 2.3.0.
>> It seems that almost everything is a "Button" (as window class name),
>> even groupings...
>> I know that this doesn't affect the actual request but it gives me
>> nevertheless an uncomfortable feeling.
>> I'd like to have the assurance that this can be solved in time.
>>
>
> controls which have the class button include: buttons, radio buttons, check
> boxes, and group boxes. See this list of button styles, which includes, for
> example, BS_GROUPBOX:
> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb775951(v=vs.85).aspx
>
>
>> You can test for buttons in NVDA by:
>> - opening the preferences
>> - navigating up to the preferences window (NVDA+NumPad 8)
>> - opening the console (Control+NVDA+Z)
>> - entering
>> [x.name for x in focus.recursiveDescendants if
>> x.windowClassName==u"Button"]
>>
>> The error I'm getting with the changed appModule is that the name of
>> <None-Type> objects is attempted to be changed.
>>
>
> What are the precise steps to reproduce that error.
> I'm slightly surprised that you are getting such an error, because in
> changing that one line of the script, we are not changing which objects
> have their name changed, only what the name is changed to.
>
>>
>> I think that we need some further testing.
>>
>
> Yes, we need to be sure that the change works :).
>
> David.
>
>
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>> > On Audacity we do ask people making pull requests to talk with us on
>> > the
>> > devel list.
>> > That can remove the delay.
>> >
>> > There is often a reason for the delay, for example no one to test the
>> > pull request on the proposed (new) platform, or that it affects one of
>> > the lib-src files, which are upstream and which we are reluctant to
>> > modify.  For example there was a delay in applying some warning fixes.
>> > When the warning fixes were restricted to just our libraries the pull
>> > request was pulled.
>> >
>> > --James.
>> >
>> > On 4/13/2018 9:21 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> >> Hi David
>> >>
>> >> I've opened an issue for this.
>> >>
>> >> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8178
>> >>
>> >> I hope that one of the developers will do the change.
>> >>
>> >> The problem with pull requests for NVDA (currently 59) is the same as
>> >> those for Audacity, they are delayed and delayed until they are not
>> >> valid any more ;-)
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >> Robert
>> >>
>> >> On 12/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>> >>> On 11 April 2018 at 14:20, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 11/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>> >>>>> With my RM hat on, I'm asking about Accessibility on Windows with
>> >>>>> wx3.1.1
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Overall, is using wx3.1.1 better or worse for Accessibility than
>> >>>>> wx3.0.2?  I'm hoping the answer is that it is at least moderately
>> >>>>> better.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> I think so.
>> >>>> Dialog titles and groups are now correctly announced in NVDA.
>> >>>> Buttons are not quite right because the appmodule of NVDA uses the
>> >>>> window text, rather than the accessible name (a long forgotten
>> >>>> workaround).
>> >>>> This means for instance that the help buttons are announced as "?"
>> >>>> instead of "Help".
>> >>>>
>> >>> I wasn't aware of this problem, but I've fixed it simply by setting
>> >>> the
>> >>> label. However, this doesn't reduce the need to get nvda's audacity
>> >>> appmodule changed. For example, NVDA doesn't read the more helpful
>> >>> accessibility names of the radio buttons in the keyboard category in
>> >>> Preferences.
>> >>>
>> >>> Do let me know of any other names that have disappeared since the
>> >>> move
>> to
>> >>> 3.1.1
>> >>>
>> >>> David.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> I will send a pull request to NV Access for that.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The toolbars are still no toolbars and their title not announced on
>> >>>> changing to them.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Object Navigation is worse(Apart from being illogical).
>> >>>> This is what I get when I navigate once up and then to the left.
>> >>>> Track 1  Select On  row focused  selected  1 of 1
>> >>>> TrackView  table
>> >>>> Length 00 h 00 m 10.000 s
>> >>>> Start 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>> >>>> graphic
>> >>>> Audio Position 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>> >>>> graphic
>> >>>> Snap To  combo box  Off  collapsed
>> >>>> graphic
>> >>>> Project Rate (Hz)  combo box  44100  collapsed
>> >>>> Show  combo box  Start and Length of Selection  collapsed
>> >>>> graphic
>> >>>> Audio Position
>> >>>> graphic
>> >>>> Snap-To
>> >>>> graphic
>> >>>> Project Rate (Hz)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> (snip)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Note how the window labels are separated from the controls.
>> >>>> Narrator does not show this separation (scan mode).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But as I said earlier, no show stopper.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers
>> >>>> Robert
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> --James.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> ------------------
>> >>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> ------------------
>> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >>>> Audacity-quality@...
>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>>>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> Audacity-quality@...
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > Audacity-quality@...
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> Audacity-quality@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] wx3.1.1, Accessibility show stoppers?

[David Bailes <drbailes@gm...>]

On 13 April 2018 at 16:53, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:

> Hi
> I was just about to make the pull request.
> However, there are severe issues with the preferences dialog in 2.3.0.
> It seems that almost everything is a "Button" (as window class name),
> even groupings...
> I know that this doesn't affect the actual request but it gives me
> nevertheless an uncomfortable feeling.
> I'd like to have the assurance that this can be solved in time.
>

controls which have the class button include: buttons, radio buttons, check
boxes, and group boxes. See this list of button styles, which includes, for
example, BS_GROUPBOX:
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb775951(v=vs.85).aspx


> You can test for buttons in NVDA by:
> - opening the preferences
> - navigating up to the preferences window (NVDA+NumPad 8)
> - opening the console (Control+NVDA+Z)
> - entering
> [x.name for x in focus.recursiveDescendants if
> x.windowClassName==u"Button"]
>
> The error I'm getting with the changed appModule is that the name of
> <None-Type> objects is attempted to be changed.
>

What are the precise steps to reproduce that error.
I'm slightly surprised that you are getting such an error, because in
changing that one line of the script, we are not changing which objects
have their name changed, only what the name is changed to.

>
> I think that we need some further testing.
>

Yes, we need to be sure that the change works :).

David.


>
> Robert
>
>
> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
> > On Audacity we do ask people making pull requests to talk with us on the
> > devel list.
> > That can remove the delay.
> >
> > There is often a reason for the delay, for example no one to test the
> > pull request on the proposed (new) platform, or that it affects one of
> > the lib-src files, which are upstream and which we are reluctant to
> > modify.  For example there was a delay in applying some warning fixes.
> > When the warning fixes were restricted to just our libraries the pull
> > request was pulled.
> >
> > --James.
> >
> > On 4/13/2018 9:21 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
> >> Hi David
> >>
> >> I've opened an issue for this.
> >>
> >> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8178
> >>
> >> I hope that one of the developers will do the change.
> >>
> >> The problem with pull requests for NVDA (currently 59) is the same as
> >> those for Audacity, they are delayed and delayed until they are not
> >> valid any more ;-)
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Robert
> >>
> >> On 12/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
> >>> On 11 April 2018 at 14:20, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 11/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
> >>>>> With my RM hat on, I'm asking about Accessibility on Windows with
> >>>>> wx3.1.1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Overall, is using wx3.1.1 better or worse for Accessibility than
> >>>>> wx3.0.2?  I'm hoping the answer is that it is at least moderately
> >>>>> better.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I think so.
> >>>> Dialog titles and groups are now correctly announced in NVDA.
> >>>> Buttons are not quite right because the appmodule of NVDA uses the
> >>>> window text, rather than the accessible name (a long forgotten
> >>>> workaround).
> >>>> This means for instance that the help buttons are announced as "?"
> >>>> instead of "Help".
> >>>>
> >>> I wasn't aware of this problem, but I've fixed it simply by setting the
> >>> label. However, this doesn't reduce the need to get nvda's audacity
> >>> appmodule changed. For example, NVDA doesn't read the more helpful
> >>> accessibility names of the radio buttons in the keyboard category in
> >>> Preferences.
> >>>
> >>> Do let me know of any other names that have disappeared since the move
> to
> >>> 3.1.1
> >>>
> >>> David.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I will send a pull request to NV Access for that.
> >>>>
> >>>> The toolbars are still no toolbars and their title not announced on
> >>>> changing to them.
> >>>>
> >>>> Object Navigation is worse(Apart from being illogical).
> >>>> This is what I get when I navigate once up and then to the left.
> >>>> Track 1  Select On  row focused  selected  1 of 1
> >>>> TrackView  table
> >>>> Length 00 h 00 m 10.000 s
> >>>> Start 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
> >>>> graphic
> >>>> Audio Position 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
> >>>> graphic
> >>>> Snap To  combo box  Off  collapsed
> >>>> graphic
> >>>> Project Rate (Hz)  combo box  44100  collapsed
> >>>> Show  combo box  Start and Length of Selection  collapsed
> >>>> graphic
> >>>> Audio Position
> >>>> graphic
> >>>> Snap-To
> >>>> graphic
> >>>> Project Rate (Hz)
> >>>>
> >>>> (snip)
> >>>>
> >>>> Note how the window labels are separated from the controls.
> >>>> Narrator does not show this separation (scan mode).
> >>>>
> >>>> But as I said earlier, no show stopper.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>> Robert
> >>>>
> >>>>> --James.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> ------------------
> >>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
> >>>>> Audacity-quality@...
> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
> >>>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> ------------------
> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
> >>>> Audacity-quality@...
> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
> >>>>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
> >> Audacity-quality@...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>

Re: [Audacity-quality] wx3.1.1, Accessibility show stoppers?

[Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@gm...>]

Hi
I was just about to make the pull request.
However, there are severe issues with the preferences dialog in 2.3.0.
It seems that almost everything is a "Button" (as window class name),
even groupings...
I know that this doesn't affect the actual request but it gives me
nevertheless an uncomfortable feeling.
I'd like to have the assurance that this can be solved in time.

You can test for buttons in NVDA by:
- opening the preferences
- navigating up to the preferences window (NVDA+NumPad 8)
- opening the console (Control+NVDA+Z)
- entering
[x.name for x in focus.recursiveDescendants if x.windowClassName==u"Button"]

The error I'm getting with the changed appModule is that the name of
<None-Type> objects is attempted to be changed.

I think that we need some further testing.

Robert


On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
> On Audacity we do ask people making pull requests to talk with us on the
> devel list.
> That can remove the delay.
>
> There is often a reason for the delay, for example no one to test the
> pull request on the proposed (new) platform, or that it affects one of
> the lib-src files, which are upstream and which we are reluctant to
> modify.  For example there was a delay in applying some warning fixes.
> When the warning fixes were restricted to just our libraries the pull
> request was pulled.
>
> --James.
>
> On 4/13/2018 9:21 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> Hi David
>>
>> I've opened an issue for this.
>>
>> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8178
>>
>> I hope that one of the developers will do the change.
>>
>> The problem with pull requests for NVDA (currently 59) is the same as
>> those for Audacity, they are delayed and delayed until they are not
>> valid any more ;-)
>>
>> Cheers
>> Robert
>>
>> On 12/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>>> On 11 April 2018 at 14:20, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>> With my RM hat on, I'm asking about Accessibility on Windows with
>>>>> wx3.1.1
>>>>>
>>>>> Overall, is using wx3.1.1 better or worse for Accessibility than
>>>>> wx3.0.2?  I'm hoping the answer is that it is at least moderately
>>>>> better.
>>>>>
>>>> I think so.
>>>> Dialog titles and groups are now correctly announced in NVDA.
>>>> Buttons are not quite right because the appmodule of NVDA uses the
>>>> window text, rather than the accessible name (a long forgotten
>>>> workaround).
>>>> This means for instance that the help buttons are announced as "?"
>>>> instead of "Help".
>>>>
>>> I wasn't aware of this problem, but I've fixed it simply by setting the
>>> label. However, this doesn't reduce the need to get nvda's audacity
>>> appmodule changed. For example, NVDA doesn't read the more helpful
>>> accessibility names of the radio buttons in the keyboard category in
>>> Preferences.
>>>
>>> Do let me know of any other names that have disappeared since the move to
>>> 3.1.1
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I will send a pull request to NV Access for that.
>>>>
>>>> The toolbars are still no toolbars and their title not announced on
>>>> changing to them.
>>>>
>>>> Object Navigation is worse(Apart from being illogical).
>>>> This is what I get when I navigate once up and then to the left.
>>>> Track 1  Select On  row focused  selected  1 of 1
>>>> TrackView  table
>>>> Length 00 h 00 m 10.000 s
>>>> Start 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>> graphic
>>>> Audio Position 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>>> graphic
>>>> Snap To  combo box  Off  collapsed
>>>> graphic
>>>> Project Rate (Hz)  combo box  44100  collapsed
>>>> Show  combo box  Start and Length of Selection  collapsed
>>>> graphic
>>>> Audio Position
>>>> graphic
>>>> Snap-To
>>>> graphic
>>>> Project Rate (Hz)
>>>>
>>>> (snip)
>>>>
>>>> Note how the window labels are separated from the controls.
>>>> Narrator does not show this separation (scan mode).
>>>>
>>>> But as I said earlier, no show stopper.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>>> --James.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> Audacity-quality@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] [Bug 553] Zero crossings selection when short selections or white noise

[Peter Sampson <petersampsonaudacity@gm...>]

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 12:27 PM, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:

>
> Try using find zero crossings on white noise.
>
> The results are poor, in particular:
> 1: A zero selection may result.
> 2: A good selection may be made obviously worse
>
> I believe the problem(s) reported in this bug are fixed.
>
> 1. Does not happen any more
> 2. I've not seen happen.
>
> The bug is largely dubious as a test case anyway.  White noise can be cut
> and pasted as you like without issue.  Zero crossings don't make editing
> white noise any better.  You're not going to hear new clicking that was not
> there before if you don't look for zero crossings.  It's the same reason
> that you can cut and paste into fricatives and sibilants relatively safely,
> but not so for vowel sounds.  It's harmonic sounds where zero crossings are
> relevant.
>
> White noise is a dopey test case for zero crossings.  A better test is a
> mix of equal parts white noise and 4KHz tone.  Zero crossings does superbly
> well with the new algorithm there, much better than the old algorithm.  It
> generally won't change selections that are very short and it does well on
> slightly longer selections.  It is looking specifically for INCREASING
> slope AND close to zero.
>
I confirm that my testing showed that it worked OK on longer selections -
and poorly on short selections.

If that is what is is "supposed to do" - then I can close this bug.

If so can I copy this comment of yours to the bug thread?


> Perhaps documentation should note that that is what it looks for.  If it
> mixed increasing and decreasing slope, you would get glitches.
>
Perhaps ...

But I suspect that it won't mean much to many readers :-//

>
> I thought we were planning to phase out selection at zero crossings - not least because it's pretty useless on stereo tracks.
>
> Maybe.  But that is no reason to leave the bug open.
>
That wasn't my reasoning for leaving it open

As I explain above I am poorly qualified to understand the workings oz Zero
Crossings

Sometime we SHOULD remove zero crossings, when we have something better,
> akin to beat-matching that works at a finer granularity, and that we can
> use on looped play and to repair joins and for stereo and so on.
>

Sounds like a good plan.

Cheers,
Peter.

> --James.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> Audacity-quality@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] Some keyboard issues

[James Crook <crookj@in...>]

On 4/13/2018 10:50 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
> Sorry James that I said accelerator, I meant assigned shortcut.
>
> Three problems:
> - Shift+C does also remove on my system a track.

That is correct behaviour.  Shift+C is assigned to close focused track.
If we do not want that in the full shortcuts, then if David agrees, we 
remove it from the full set.


> - Pressing this combo in the track view (no tracks present) opens:
>    preferences -> keyboard -> entry "Add/Remove Plug-ins"
>    Is this a subtle hint that I should reassign the shortcut or what?
Not on my Windows machine it doesn't.
That sounds like a bug.  If you are on windows, then maybe an 
interaction with the screen reader?
Do you have the full preferences dialog with all its pages, or just the 
'Unique Page' version with just the keyboard page?

For a bug, YES to a Bugzilla entry.
"Shift+C may open keyboard prefs when in an empty Track Panel"




Paul wrote:
> At commit aa5c3f12a3c5a274da71a7c8ab24d31d32d382bb, you can choose a menu
> item, hold Shift as you release the mouse, and instead of executing the
> command, the keyboard preferences pop open at the chosen command.  You can
> then change that (or any other) binding.
If you're just getting the unique page, then it's related to Paul's 
quick set feature in some way.




>
> the third problem is more general.
> - open a menu, press Shift+ a letter (accelerator) that is present in that menu.
> Again, you will land on the shortcut assigning tab of the preferences
> with the first entry that has the mentioned letter.
> For instance (a track must be present):
> - Alt-A to open the Analyze menu.
> - Shift+P opens Preferences->Keyboard->Plot Spectrum.
>
> I would have thought that only Shift+Enter is used to assign shortcuts
> for the focused menu entry.

Sounds like you are triggering Paul's feature.  Do you release the mouse 
first or the shift first?
Are you on Mac or Windows here?



>
> Is that clearer now?
>
> Robert
>
> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>> On 4/13/2018 9:56 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> The Shift+C accelerator key (combo) is still assigned to add/remove
>>> plug-ins in the Analyze menu.
>>>
>>> Must I open a Bugzilla entry for that?
>> No.  There is no need to.
>> Just complain about it loudly here, and more important say exactly what
>> you want.
>> Show there is agreement it should go.
>>
>> - Do you want it removed entirely.
>> - Do you want it made only for the full set
>>
>>
>>> Regards
>>> Robert

[Audacity-quality] [Bug 553] Zero crossings selection when short selections or white noise

[James Crook <crookj@in...>]

> Try using find zero crossings on white noise.
>
> The results are poor, in particular:
> 1: A zero selection may result.
> 2: A good selection may be made obviously worse

I believe the problem(s) reported in this bug are fixed.

1. Does not happen any more
2. I've not seen happen.

The bug is largely dubious as a test case anyway.  White noise can be 
cut and pasted as you like without issue.  Zero crossings don't make 
editing white noise any better.  You're not going to hear new clicking 
that was not there before if you don't look for zero crossings.  It's 
the same reason that you can cut and paste into fricatives and sibilants 
relatively safely, but not so for vowel sounds.  It's harmonic sounds 
where zero crossings are relevant.

White noise is a dopey test case for zero crossings.  A better test is a 
mix of equal parts white noise and 4KHz tone.  Zero crossings does 
superbly well with the new algorithm there, much better than the old 
algorithm.  It generally won't change selections that are very short and 
it does well on slightly longer selections.  It is looking specifically 
for INCREASING slope AND close to zero.  Perhaps documentation should 
note that that is what it looks for.  If it mixed increasing and 
decreasing slope, you would get glitches.


> I thought we were planning to phase out selection at zero crossings - not least because it's pretty useless on stereo tracks.

Maybe.  But that is no reason to leave the bug open.

Sometime we SHOULD remove zero crossings, when we have something better, 
akin to beat-matching that works at a finer granularity, and that we can 
use on looped play and to repair joins and for stereo and so on.

--James.

Re: [Audacity-quality] Some keyboard issues

[David Bailes <drbailes@gm...>]

On 13 April 2018 at 11:40, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:

> Correction:
> The preferences menu does only open if the accelerator key is present but
> once.
> For instance:
> - Alt+C opens effects
> - W would open the Wah-Wah effect
> - Shift+W opens the keyboard preferences for Wah-Wah...
>

So does that mean that the current behaviour more reasonable to you?

David.

>
> Robert
>
> On 13/04/2018, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
> > On 13/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
> >> On 13 April 2018 at 10:50, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Sorry James that I said accelerator, I meant assigned shortcut.
> >>>
> >>> Three problems:
> >>> - Shift+C does also remove on my system a track.
> >>> - Pressing this combo in the track view (no tracks present) opens:
> >>>   preferences -> keyboard -> entry "Add/Remove Plug-ins"
> >>>   Is this a subtle hint that I should reassign the shortcut or what?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Add/Remove Plugins doesn't have a default shortcut. I'm not completely
> >> sure
> >> how you've ended up with duplicate shortcuts, but just reassign it. This
> >> bug, which has now been fixed may or may not have caused the problem:
> >> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1786
> >>
> > It is certainly weird, more so since the Analyze menu is the only
> > place with that shortcut for "Add/Remove Plug-ins".
> > It would be more logical if all four menus would show it since it is
> > always the same command after all.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> the third problem is more general.
> >>> - open a menu, press Shift+ a letter (accelerator) that is present in
> >>> that
> >>> menu.
> >>> Again, you will land on the shortcut assigning tab of the preferences
> >>> with the first entry that has the mentioned letter.
> >>> For instance (a track must be present):
> >>> - Alt-A to open the Analyze menu.
> >>> - Shift+P opens Preferences->Keyboard->Plot Spectrum.
> >>>
> >>> I would have thought that only Shift+Enter is used to assign shortcuts
> >>> for the focused menu entry.
> >>>
> >>
> >> The only example I can think of in Windows where the shift modifier can
> >> be
> >> used to change to effect of a command is in the quick link menu (windows
> >> key + x). In the  shutdown or sign out sub menu, the shift modifier
> >> effects
> >> both the restart and shutdown commands. In that sub menu you can press
> >> shift + R or shift + U to execute the modified commands. So the current
> >> behaviour of Audacity is the same as this.
> >>
> > That's not a Windows thing, is it.
> > Paul wanted this quick assignment (in combination with a mouse click
> > or Enter key).
> > The described behaviour is probably not what he intended.
> >
> > Robert
> >> David.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Is that clearer now?
> >>>
> >>> Robert
> >>>
> >>> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
> >>> > On 4/13/2018 9:56 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
> >>> >> Hi
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The Shift+C accelerator key (combo) is still assigned to add/remove
> >>> >> plug-ins in the Analyze menu.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Must I open a Bugzilla entry for that?
> >>> >
> >>> > No.  There is no need to.
> >>> > Just complain about it loudly here, and more important say exactly
> >>> > what
> >>> > you want.
> >>> > Show there is agreement it should go.
> >>> >
> >>> > - Do you want it removed entirely.
> >>> > - Do you want it made only for the full set
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Regards
> >>> >> Robert
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ------------------
> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
> >>> > Audacity-quality@...
> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ------------------
> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Audacity-quality mailing list
> >>> Audacity-quality@...
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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> Audacity-quality@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] Some keyboard issues

[David Bailes <drbailes@gm...>]

On 13 April 2018 at 11:27, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:

> On 13/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
> > On 13 April 2018 at 10:50, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Sorry James that I said accelerator, I meant assigned shortcut.
> >>
> >> Three problems:
> >> - Shift+C does also remove on my system a track.
> >> - Pressing this combo in the track view (no tracks present) opens:
> >>   preferences -> keyboard -> entry "Add/Remove Plug-ins"
> >>   Is this a subtle hint that I should reassign the shortcut or what?
> >>
> >
> > Add/Remove Plugins doesn't have a default shortcut. I'm not completely
> sure
> > how you've ended up with duplicate shortcuts, but just reassign it. This
> > bug, which has now been fixed may or may not have caused the problem:
> > http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1786
> >
> It is certainly weird, more so since the Analyze menu is the only
> place with that shortcut for "Add/Remove Plug-ins".
> It would be more logical if all four menus would show it since it is
> always the same command after all.
>

Having the item on three menus means that there are three independent
settings in keyboard preferences. Probably not what the user expects.


> >
> >>
> >> the third problem is more general.
> >> - open a menu, press Shift+ a letter (accelerator) that is present in
> >> that
> >> menu.
> >> Again, you will land on the shortcut assigning tab of the preferences
> >> with the first entry that has the mentioned letter.
> >> For instance (a track must be present):
> >> - Alt-A to open the Analyze menu.
> >> - Shift+P opens Preferences->Keyboard->Plot Spectrum.
> >>
> >> I would have thought that only Shift+Enter is used to assign shortcuts
> >> for the focused menu entry.
> >>
> >
> > The only example I can think of in Windows where the shift modifier can
> be
> > used to change to effect of a command is in the quick link menu (windows
> > key + x). In the  shutdown or sign out sub menu, the shift modifier
> effects
> > both the restart and shutdown commands. In that sub menu you can press
> > shift + R or shift + U to execute the modified commands. So the current
> > behaviour of Audacity is the same as this.
> >
> That's not a Windows thing, is it.

Paul wanted this quick assignment (in combination with a mouse click
> or Enter key).
> The described behaviour is probably not what he intended.
>

Paul had probably not thought about the keyboard behaviour that you've
described, but it's the behaviour that I would expect, and the example of
the quick link menu does show that behaviour.

David.


> Robert
> > David.
> >
> >>
> >> Is that clearer now?
> >>
> >> Robert
> >>
> >> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
> >> > On 4/13/2018 9:56 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
> >> >> Hi
> >> >>
> >> >> The Shift+C accelerator key (combo) is still assigned to add/remove
> >> >> plug-ins in the Analyze menu.
> >> >>
> >> >> Must I open a Bugzilla entry for that?
> >> >
> >> > No.  There is no need to.
> >> > Just complain about it loudly here, and more important say exactly
> what
> >> > you want.
> >> > Show there is agreement it should go.
> >> >
> >> > - Do you want it removed entirely.
> >> > - Do you want it made only for the full set
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards
> >> >> Robert
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ------------------
> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
> >> > Audacity-quality@...
> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ------------------
> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
> >> Audacity-quality@...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
> >>
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> Audacity-quality@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] Some keyboard issues

[Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@gm...>]

Correction:
The preferences menu does only open if the accelerator key is present but once.
For instance:
- Alt+C opens effects
- W would open the Wah-Wah effect
- Shift+W opens the keyboard preferences for Wah-Wah...

Robert

On 13/04/2018, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
> On 13/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>> On 13 April 2018 at 10:50, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry James that I said accelerator, I meant assigned shortcut.
>>>
>>> Three problems:
>>> - Shift+C does also remove on my system a track.
>>> - Pressing this combo in the track view (no tracks present) opens:
>>>   preferences -> keyboard -> entry "Add/Remove Plug-ins"
>>>   Is this a subtle hint that I should reassign the shortcut or what?
>>>
>>
>> Add/Remove Plugins doesn't have a default shortcut. I'm not completely
>> sure
>> how you've ended up with duplicate shortcuts, but just reassign it. This
>> bug, which has now been fixed may or may not have caused the problem:
>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1786
>>
> It is certainly weird, more so since the Analyze menu is the only
> place with that shortcut for "Add/Remove Plug-ins".
> It would be more logical if all four menus would show it since it is
> always the same command after all.
>>
>>>
>>> the third problem is more general.
>>> - open a menu, press Shift+ a letter (accelerator) that is present in
>>> that
>>> menu.
>>> Again, you will land on the shortcut assigning tab of the preferences
>>> with the first entry that has the mentioned letter.
>>> For instance (a track must be present):
>>> - Alt-A to open the Analyze menu.
>>> - Shift+P opens Preferences->Keyboard->Plot Spectrum.
>>>
>>> I would have thought that only Shift+Enter is used to assign shortcuts
>>> for the focused menu entry.
>>>
>>
>> The only example I can think of in Windows where the shift modifier can
>> be
>> used to change to effect of a command is in the quick link menu (windows
>> key + x). In the  shutdown or sign out sub menu, the shift modifier
>> effects
>> both the restart and shutdown commands. In that sub menu you can press
>> shift + R or shift + U to execute the modified commands. So the current
>> behaviour of Audacity is the same as this.
>>
> That's not a Windows thing, is it.
> Paul wanted this quick assignment (in combination with a mouse click
> or Enter key).
> The described behaviour is probably not what he intended.
>
> Robert
>> David.
>>
>>>
>>> Is that clearer now?
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>> > On 4/13/2018 9:56 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>> >> Hi
>>> >>
>>> >> The Shift+C accelerator key (combo) is still assigned to add/remove
>>> >> plug-ins in the Analyze menu.
>>> >>
>>> >> Must I open a Bugzilla entry for that?
>>> >
>>> > No.  There is no need to.
>>> > Just complain about it loudly here, and more important say exactly
>>> > what
>>> > you want.
>>> > Show there is agreement it should go.
>>> >
>>> > - Do you want it removed entirely.
>>> > - Do you want it made only for the full set
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards
>>> >> Robert
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> > Audacity-quality@...
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] Some keyboard issues

[Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@gm...>]

On 13/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
> On 13 April 2018 at 10:50, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
>
>> Sorry James that I said accelerator, I meant assigned shortcut.
>>
>> Three problems:
>> - Shift+C does also remove on my system a track.
>> - Pressing this combo in the track view (no tracks present) opens:
>>   preferences -> keyboard -> entry "Add/Remove Plug-ins"
>>   Is this a subtle hint that I should reassign the shortcut or what?
>>
>
> Add/Remove Plugins doesn't have a default shortcut. I'm not completely sure
> how you've ended up with duplicate shortcuts, but just reassign it. This
> bug, which has now been fixed may or may not have caused the problem:
> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1786
>
It is certainly weird, more so since the Analyze menu is the only
place with that shortcut for "Add/Remove Plug-ins".
It would be more logical if all four menus would show it since it is
always the same command after all.
>
>>
>> the third problem is more general.
>> - open a menu, press Shift+ a letter (accelerator) that is present in
>> that
>> menu.
>> Again, you will land on the shortcut assigning tab of the preferences
>> with the first entry that has the mentioned letter.
>> For instance (a track must be present):
>> - Alt-A to open the Analyze menu.
>> - Shift+P opens Preferences->Keyboard->Plot Spectrum.
>>
>> I would have thought that only Shift+Enter is used to assign shortcuts
>> for the focused menu entry.
>>
>
> The only example I can think of in Windows where the shift modifier can be
> used to change to effect of a command is in the quick link menu (windows
> key + x). In the  shutdown or sign out sub menu, the shift modifier effects
> both the restart and shutdown commands. In that sub menu you can press
> shift + R or shift + U to execute the modified commands. So the current
> behaviour of Audacity is the same as this.
>
That's not a Windows thing, is it.
Paul wanted this quick assignment (in combination with a mouse click
or Enter key).
The described behaviour is probably not what he intended.

Robert
> David.
>
>>
>> Is that clearer now?
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>> > On 4/13/2018 9:56 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> >> Hi
>> >>
>> >> The Shift+C accelerator key (combo) is still assigned to add/remove
>> >> plug-ins in the Analyze menu.
>> >>
>> >> Must I open a Bugzilla entry for that?
>> >
>> > No.  There is no need to.
>> > Just complain about it loudly here, and more important say exactly what
>> > you want.
>> > Show there is agreement it should go.
>> >
>> > - Do you want it removed entirely.
>> > - Do you want it made only for the full set
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >> Robert
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > Audacity-quality@...
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> Audacity-quality@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] Some keyboard issues

[David Bailes <drbailes@gm...>]

On 13 April 2018 at 10:50, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:

> Sorry James that I said accelerator, I meant assigned shortcut.
>
> Three problems:
> - Shift+C does also remove on my system a track.
> - Pressing this combo in the track view (no tracks present) opens:
>   preferences -> keyboard -> entry "Add/Remove Plug-ins"
>   Is this a subtle hint that I should reassign the shortcut or what?
>

Add/Remove Plugins doesn't have a default shortcut. I'm not completely sure
how you've ended up with duplicate shortcuts, but just reassign it. This
bug, which has now been fixed may or may not have caused the problem:
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1786


>
> the third problem is more general.
> - open a menu, press Shift+ a letter (accelerator) that is present in that
> menu.
> Again, you will land on the shortcut assigning tab of the preferences
> with the first entry that has the mentioned letter.
> For instance (a track must be present):
> - Alt-A to open the Analyze menu.
> - Shift+P opens Preferences->Keyboard->Plot Spectrum.
>
> I would have thought that only Shift+Enter is used to assign shortcuts
> for the focused menu entry.
>

The only example I can think of in Windows where the shift modifier can be
used to change to effect of a command is in the quick link menu (windows
key + x). In the  shutdown or sign out sub menu, the shift modifier effects
both the restart and shutdown commands. In that sub menu you can press
shift + R or shift + U to execute the modified commands. So the current
behaviour of Audacity is the same as this.

David.

>
> Is that clearer now?
>
> Robert
>
> On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
> > On 4/13/2018 9:56 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> The Shift+C accelerator key (combo) is still assigned to add/remove
> >> plug-ins in the Analyze menu.
> >>
> >> Must I open a Bugzilla entry for that?
> >
> > No.  There is no need to.
> > Just complain about it loudly here, and more important say exactly what
> > you want.
> > Show there is agreement it should go.
> >
> > - Do you want it removed entirely.
> > - Do you want it made only for the full set
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Robert
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > _______________________________________________
> > Audacity-quality mailing list
> > Audacity-quality@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> Audacity-quality@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] Some keyboard issues

[Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@gm...>]

Sorry James that I said accelerator, I meant assigned shortcut.

Three problems:
- Shift+C does also remove on my system a track.
- Pressing this combo in the track view (no tracks present) opens:
  preferences -> keyboard -> entry "Add/Remove Plug-ins"
  Is this a subtle hint that I should reassign the shortcut or what?

the third problem is more general.
- open a menu, press Shift+ a letter (accelerator) that is present in that menu.
Again, you will land on the shortcut assigning tab of the preferences
with the first entry that has the mentioned letter.
For instance (a track must be present):
- Alt-A to open the Analyze menu.
- Shift+P opens Preferences->Keyboard->Plot Spectrum.

I would have thought that only Shift+Enter is used to assign shortcuts
for the focused menu entry.

Is that clearer now?

Robert

On 13/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
> On 4/13/2018 9:56 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> The Shift+C accelerator key (combo) is still assigned to add/remove
>> plug-ins in the Analyze menu.
>>
>> Must I open a Bugzilla entry for that?
>
> No.  There is no need to.
> Just complain about it loudly here, and more important say exactly what
> you want.
> Show there is agreement it should go.
>
> - Do you want it removed entirely.
> - Do you want it made only for the full set
>
>
>>
>> Regards
>> Robert
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> Audacity-quality@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] Some keyboard issues

[James Crook <crookj@in...>]

On 4/13/2018 9:56 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
> Hi
>
> The Shift+C accelerator key (combo) is still assigned to add/remove
> plug-ins in the Analyze menu.
>
> Must I open a Bugzilla entry for that?

No.  There is no need to.
Just complain about it loudly here, and more important say exactly what 
you want.
Show there is agreement it should go.

- Do you want it removed entirely.
- Do you want it made only for the full set


>
> Regards
> Robert

Re: [Audacity-quality] wx3.1.1, Accessibility show stoppers?

[James Crook <crookj@in...>]

On Audacity we do ask people making pull requests to talk with us on the 
devel list.
That can remove the delay.

There is often a reason for the delay, for example no one to test the 
pull request on the proposed (new) platform, or that it affects one of 
the lib-src files, which are upstream and which we are reluctant to 
modify.  For example there was a delay in applying some warning fixes.  
When the warning fixes were restricted to just our libraries the pull 
request was pulled.

--James.

On 4/13/2018 9:21 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
> Hi David
>
> I've opened an issue for this.
>
> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8178
>
> I hope that one of the developers will do the change.
>
> The problem with pull requests for NVDA (currently 59) is the same as
> those for Audacity, they are delayed and delayed until they are not
> valid any more ;-)
>
> Cheers
> Robert
>
> On 12/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>> On 11 April 2018 at 14:20, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>> With my RM hat on, I'm asking about Accessibility on Windows with
>>>> wx3.1.1
>>>>
>>>> Overall, is using wx3.1.1 better or worse for Accessibility than
>>>> wx3.0.2?  I'm hoping the answer is that it is at least moderately
>>>> better.
>>>>
>>> I think so.
>>> Dialog titles and groups are now correctly announced in NVDA.
>>> Buttons are not quite right because the appmodule of NVDA uses the
>>> window text, rather than the accessible name (a long forgotten
>>> workaround).
>>> This means for instance that the help buttons are announced as "?"
>>> instead of "Help".
>>>
>> I wasn't aware of this problem, but I've fixed it simply by setting the
>> label. However, this doesn't reduce the need to get nvda's audacity
>> appmodule changed. For example, NVDA doesn't read the more helpful
>> accessibility names of the radio buttons in the keyboard category in
>> Preferences.
>>
>> Do let me know of any other names that have disappeared since the move to
>> 3.1.1
>>
>> David.
>>
>>
>>> I will send a pull request to NV Access for that.
>>>
>>> The toolbars are still no toolbars and their title not announced on
>>> changing to them.
>>>
>>> Object Navigation is worse(Apart from being illogical).
>>> This is what I get when I navigate once up and then to the left.
>>> Track 1  Select On  row focused  selected  1 of 1
>>> TrackView  table
>>> Length 00 h 00 m 10.000 s
>>> Start 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>> graphic
>>> Audio Position 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>>> graphic
>>> Snap To  combo box  Off  collapsed
>>> graphic
>>> Project Rate (Hz)  combo box  44100  collapsed
>>> Show  combo box  Start and Length of Selection  collapsed
>>> graphic
>>> Audio Position
>>> graphic
>>> Snap-To
>>> graphic
>>> Project Rate (Hz)
>>>
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>> Note how the window labels are separated from the controls.
>>> Narrator does not show this separation (scan mode).
>>>
>>> But as I said earlier, no show stopper.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality

Re: [Audacity-quality] Some keyboard issues

[Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@gm...>]

Hi

The Shift+C accelerator key (combo) is still assigned to add/remove
plug-ins in the Analyze menu.

Must I open a Bugzilla entry for that?

Regards
Robert

On 30/03/2018, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
> Here's another Space Oddity 2018:
>
> We have now the quick assign method where you can open the keyboard
> preferences with e.g. Shift+Enter on a menu entry.
>
> However, you can also do the following:
> Pressing Shift+Letter while in a menu will open preferences with the
> first menu item that starts with that letter.
> Is that intentional?
>
> But that's not all, open the Analyze menu.
> On my system, Add/Remove Plug-ins has the hotkey Shift+C which will of
> course not work because preferences will open for "Contrast".
> Do you see that accelerator too or is something corrupt here?
>
> Cheers
> Robert
>
> On 23/03/2018, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
>> I list here some phrases from Rhyme Zone, just to give you some brain
>> food.
>> There are at least 10 possible replacements for Extra amongst them.
>>
>> Synonyms and other words related to extra:
>>
>> 1. additional
>> 2. spare
>> 3. special
>> 4. excess
>> 5. unnecessary
>> 6. added
>> 7. unneeded
>> 8. superfluous
>> 9. unscheduled
>> 10. outside
>> 11. redundant
>> 12. duplicate
>> 13. other
>> 14. surplus
>> 15. supernumerary
>> 16. supererogatory
>> 17. spear carrier
>> 18. optional
>> 19. overtime
>> 20. bonus
>> 21. excessive
>> 22. increase
>> 23. more
>> 24. greater
>> 25. supplement
>> 26. increased
>> 27. buffer
>> 28. exceptional
>> 29. incremental
>> 30. supplementary
>> 31. over
>> 32. extraordinary
>> 33. lagniappe
>> 34. increasing
>> 35. especially
>> 36. but
>> 37. super
>> 38. additionally
>> 39. ancillary
>> 40. great
>> 41. enhanced
>> 42. awesome
>> 43. addition
>> 44. supplemental
>> 45. further
>> 46. particular
>> 47. New
>> 48. surcharge
>> 49. postage
>> 50. amazing
>> 51. doubly
>> 52. particularly
>> 53. second
>> 54. superb
>> 55. supplementation
>> 56. specific
>> 57. ultra
>> 58. accompanying
>> 59. wonderful
>> 60. separate
>> 61. outstanding
>> 62. neat
>> 63. complement
>> 64. exciting
>> 65. adjunctive
>> 66. swell
>> 67. complementary
>> 68. very
>> 69. offshore
>> 70. dynamite
>> 71. alloy
>> 72. Groovy
>> 73. 2nd
>> 74. edition
>> 75. extrajudicial
>> 76. remarkable
>> 77. derogating
>> 78. sup
>> 79. 24th
>> 80. add-in
>> 81. add-on
>> 82. snap-in
>> 83. top-up
>> 84. hefty
>>
>> You can look for yourself at:
>> https://www.rhymezone.com
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 23/03/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
>>> On 23 March 2018 at 14:43, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/23/2018 2:03 PM, David Bailes wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 23 March 2018 at 13:47, James Crook <crookj@...>
>>>> <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/23/2018 1:05 PM, David Bailes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23 March 2018 at 12:44, Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...>
>>>> <stevethefiddle@...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23 March 2018 at 12:00, James Crook <crookj@...>
>>>> <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 3/23/2018 11:35 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 23 March 2018 at 11:31, James Crook <crookj@...>
>>>> <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The problem is the conflict between Alt+X for "Cut labelled Audio" and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alt+X for "E&xtra".
>>>>
>>>> E, T, R and A have already been used up, so we can't just shift to
>>>> another
>>>> letter.  (unless we make it "Extra&!" which I don't think would
>>>> satisfy
>>>> anyone :-) )
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I much prefer 'Extra' to 'More'.  The Alt+X shortcut on "Cut labelled
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Audio" is in the optional set - and I would say that already indicates
>>>> it
>>>> is not one of the important ones.  So just drop the shortcut for it
>>>> even in
>>>> the optional set, and those who want a shortcut for it can add one in
>>>> that
>>>> they like.
>>>>
>>>> IF Alt+X for "Cut labelled Audio" is for some reason regarded as more
>>>> important than Alt+X for "E&xtra", then lose the accelerator for
>>>> "E&xtra".
>>>> So it is just "Extra".  People can still get to it fast enough using
>>>> Alt+H
>>>> and then right arrow.  And in any case keyboard wizards will be using
>>>> direct shortcuts to the commands in that menu that they use most.
>>>>
>>>> I'd prefer to have my cake and eat it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You'd get the &Cake Steve, but doing so leaves me only with
>>>>
>>>> Bread&crumbs
>>>> :-(
>>>>
>>>> Besides which, we'll have the same issue all over again when Francois
>>>> wants to Avoir his Gateau&x and Mange it  (i.e. I'm saying we're
>>>> already
>>>> using so many shortcuts by default that other languages will have these
>>>> kind of issue of shortcut collisions too. We're better off avoiding it
>>>> by
>>>> not using Alt+X for cut labels).
>>>>
>>>> My view: Alt+ shortcuts should only ever be used (by us) for menu item.
>>>> It's a mistake (for us) to use them for other default shortcuts.
>>>>
>>>> +1 (I think I wrote so earlier)
>>>>
>>>> I think we agree not to use Alt+letter (other than as a menu
>>>> accelerator)
>>>> in future, but it's a bit late for the ones we already have.
>>>>
>>>> @Peter, should this go into Connie?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Renaming a menu item to a worse name just to get the accelerators in
>>>>
>>>> English to not conflict with an optional badly chosen Alt+ shortcut for
>>>> a
>>>> rarely used menu item is the wrong decision.
>>>>
>>>> How about &Extra Steve?  To get to Extra you then have to press Alt+E
>>>> twice to skip over &Edit.  Then we can keep the badly chosen Alt+X
>>>> shortcut?
>>>>
>>>> Assuming that works as expected cross-platform, I could live with that.
>>>>
>>>> My
>>>> main concern is for VI users, which is David's area of expertise.
>>>>
>>>> That option isn't viable. If there are two access keys the same, then
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> focus is moved to that item, but it isn't activated. So if you press
>>>> Alt
>>>> +
>>>> E to open the edit menu, it doesn't open.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could use a down-arrow?
>>>>
>>>> But OK then.  We use Tra&nsport and and then 'r' is free for Ext&ra.
>>>> All
>>>> top level menus then have their own Alt+ shortcut.
>>>> I'll check that in, if no one howls.
>>>>
>>>> Howl. As previously listed by Steve:
>>>>
>>>> I don't think we should really be using Alt+letter as a shortcut
>>>> because
>>>> of
>>>> the risk of collision with accelerator keys. Currently we have:
>>>> Alt+X
>>>> Alt+K
>>>> Alt+L
>>>> Alt+i
>>>> Alt+J
>>>> Alt+P
>>>> Alt+N
>>>>
>>>> David.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK.  That suits me as I do not want 'E&xtra' to change to '&More'.
>>>> Could someone please go and kill Alt+ shortcuts in the code?
>>>>
>>>> Sure, people who have them assigned already will still have the
>>>> problem,
>>>> but that is P5ish and I don't want to spend time on it.
>>>> Sure, those things will end up without default shortcuts.  That is
>>>> surely
>>>> OK since it is OK with David.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My quote from a previous post by Steve was not clear. I was just wanting
>>> to
>>> bring to your attention that Alt + N is currently used as a shortcut. I
>>> wasn't suggesting that those shortcuts are removed.
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>>   And I don't see any problem with people who choose to add Alt+
>>> shortcuts
>>>> themselves.  We don't need to hold their hands and warn them that it
>>>> might
>>>> conflict with an accelerator.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> James, is case you missed part of the earlier conversation on this,
>>>> this
>>>> is
>>>> what I said earlier about a problem with the implementation of default
>>>> keystrokes:
>>>>
>>>> However, there is a problem with updating shortcuts which are only in
>>>> the
>>>> full set. If a user has the full set by setting the full default set in
>>>> Keyboard preferences, rather than inheriting them from 2.1.3 or
>>>> earlier,
>>>> then changing the strings for the keyboard shortcuts in the code won't
>>>> automatically update the shortcuts for the user. In this case the
>>>> shortcuts
>>>> which are only in the full set are present in the config file as new
>>>> keys,
>>>> so the existing new key with Alt+X will override the new default. So as
>>>> it
>>>> stands, the user would have to reset to full defaults again, or
>>>> manually
>>>> set the new shortcut.
>>>>
>>>> David.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing
>>>> listAudacity-quality@...nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing
>>>> listAudacity-quality@...nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> Audacity-quality@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] wx3.1.1, Accessibility show stoppers?

[Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@gm...>]

Hi David

I've opened an issue for this.

https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8178

I hope that one of the developers will do the change.

The problem with pull requests for NVDA (currently 59) is the same as
those for Audacity, they are delayed and delayed until they are not
valid any more ;-)

Cheers
Robert

On 12/04/2018, David Bailes <drbailes@...> wrote:
> On 11 April 2018 at 14:20, Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
>
>> On 11/04/2018, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>> > With my RM hat on, I'm asking about Accessibility on Windows with
>> > wx3.1.1
>> >
>> > Overall, is using wx3.1.1 better or worse for Accessibility than
>> > wx3.0.2?  I'm hoping the answer is that it is at least moderately
>> > better.
>> >
>> I think so.
>> Dialog titles and groups are now correctly announced in NVDA.
>> Buttons are not quite right because the appmodule of NVDA uses the
>> window text, rather than the accessible name (a long forgotten
>> workaround).
>> This means for instance that the help buttons are announced as "?"
>> instead of "Help".
>>
>
> I wasn't aware of this problem, but I've fixed it simply by setting the
> label. However, this doesn't reduce the need to get nvda's audacity
> appmodule changed. For example, NVDA doesn't read the more helpful
> accessibility names of the radio buttons in the keyboard category in
> Preferences.
>
> Do let me know of any other names that have disappeared since the move to
> 3.1.1
>
> David.
>
>
>> I will send a pull request to NV Access for that.
>>
>> The toolbars are still no toolbars and their title not announced on
>> changing to them.
>>
>> Object Navigation is worse(Apart from being illogical).
>> This is what I get when I navigate once up and then to the left.
>> Track 1  Select On  row focused  selected  1 of 1
>> TrackView  table
>> Length 00 h 00 m 10.000 s
>> Start 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>> graphic
>> Audio Position 00 h 00 m 00.000 s
>> graphic
>> Snap To  combo box  Off  collapsed
>> graphic
>> Project Rate (Hz)  combo box  44100  collapsed
>> Show  combo box  Start and Length of Selection  collapsed
>> graphic
>> Audio Position
>> graphic
>> Snap-To
>> graphic
>> Project Rate (Hz)
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Note how the window labels are separated from the controls.
>> Narrator does not show this separation (scan mode).
>>
>> But as I said earlier, no show stopper.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Robert
>>
>> > --James.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > Audacity-quality@...
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> Audacity-quality@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] Connie: number formats / thousands separators

[Peter Sampson <petersampsonaudacity@gm...>]

Though I now note that right down the bottom of the page:
https://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Consistency_in_wording_and_punctuation_in_Audacity

She already said:  *Numbers* have no spaces or commas (*"44100 Hz"*, not
"44,100 Hz " or "44 100 Hz").

So I was repeating that in the para on Fequencies.

Peter

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 4:23 PM, Peter Sampson <
petersampsonaudacity@...> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Steve the Fiddle <
> stevethefiddle@...> wrote:
>
>> Connie does not appear to say anything about number formats.
>> How do we write 44100?
>> I would write it like that, but I see at least one page where it is
>> written as 44 100 (looks weird to me).
>>
>
>
> Connie's made her mind up (based on what shows in the app) she now says:
>
> the value should be written without a comma separator  (or a blank
> separator) for thousands - for example "'''44100 Hz'''" not "44,100 Hz" or
> "44 100 Hz"
>
>
>>
>> (So I don't forget, this is the page:
>> https://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Sample_Rates)
>>
>
> I fixed up that page accordingly - you may want to check it.
>
> Good catch.
>
> Peter.
>
>
>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> Audacity-quality@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] Connie: number formats / thousands separators

[Peter Sampson <petersampsonaudacity@gm...>]

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...>
wrote:

> Connie does not appear to say anything about number formats.
> How do we write 44100?
> I would write it like that, but I see at least one page where it is
> written as 44 100 (looks weird to me).
>


Connie's made her mind up (based on what shows in the app) she now says:

the value should be written without a comma separator  (or a blank
separator) for thousands - for example "'''44100 Hz'''" not "44,100 Hz" or
"44 100 Hz"


>
> (So I don't forget, this is the page:
> https://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Sample_Rates)
>

I fixed up that page accordingly - you may want to check it.

Good catch.

Peter.



>
> Steve
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> Audacity-quality@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] Bug 596 - Upper frequency of Chirp and Tone is limited to half the project rate

[Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@gm...>]

On 12 April 2018 at 09:48, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
> On 4/12/2018 9:09 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>
>> On 11 April 2018 at 21:38, James Crook <crookj@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 4/11/2018 7:39 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm perfectly happy with bug 596 being closed as "not a bug"
>>>> (http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=596), but as Bill
>>>> hinted at recently, the effects of "Project Rate" are wide reaching
>>>> and frequently non-obvious (or even confusing).
>>>>
>>>> I think that moving "export sample rate" into the Export dialog would
>>>> at least reduce some of the confusion (it could still take its initial
>>>> setting from the Project Rate).
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what else we can do to alleviate problems associated
>>>> with mixed sample rates (with losing too much functionality - not
>>>> allowing multiple sample rates loses too much imo).
>>>
>>>
>>> I think multiple sample rates are for pros.
>>
>> So perhaps, by default, we could do something along the lines of
>> Bill's suggestion, and always convert imported files to the Project
>> Rate. Make multi-rate support an "advanced option" that is off by
>> default (?)
>
>
> Or maybe we grey out the import button (if the rate is higher than the
> project rate) until the user chooses (in the import dialog) one of the last
> two radio buttons.
> - Don't import
> - Reduce from 96000Hz to 44100Hz
> - Raise project rate from 44100Hz to 96000Hz
>
> Those numbers change depending on the project rate and file sample rate.
> When the project rate is higher or matches, the radio buttons would not be
> shown.   Audacity would also remember which setting you had chosen last
> time.
>
> We would need to decide better what project rate is.  It probably is the
> intended maximum export sample rate.

OK, so having a go at better defining the Project Rate:

* The "Project Rate" is "the sample rate of the current working environment".


We can split the process of working with Audacity into three:
a) Acquiring audio (recording or importing)
b) Working with audio (editing / processing)
c) Output audio (export or play)

While working with the audio, we generally do not want to reduce the
quality of our work, so "Working rate >= Acquisition rate".
If Audacity is asked to do something that will reduce the quality,
then the user should probably be warned / asked what they want to do.

If the project rate is partially decoupled from the export rate (if
Project rate "suggests" the export rate, but can be overridden in the
Export dialogue), then it is always safe to increase the working rate
to match a higher acquisition rate. It is not safe to have a working
rate lower than the acquisition rate, though we sometimes do this,
without warning, in multi-track projects.


When recoding, we "should" use the sample rate that works best with
recording device - that "should" be the only factor that we consider,
but currently the recording rate is coupled to our working rate which
is coupled to the export rate.
We could be editing a high sample rate file, and want to add in a
little new recording, but our sound card may not support recording at
the high rate. We should be able to record at a rate supported by our
hardware without reducing the quality of the imported audio. In this
case we need to record at a lower rate than the working rate.

A similar problem may occur with playback. The hardware on the editing
machine may not be able to play at the sample rate of an imported
track, but I don't think we should require the audio data to be
compromised. When "working" with data, it is just numbers, so the
capabilities of our sound card are irrelevant.


Can we reliably read the default sample rate of the computer sound
system (all platforms)? If we can, then perhaps we should set default
rates for the recording and playback devices from the system,
independent of our "working" rate. If our working rate is lower than
the recording rate, prompt the user. (we may also want to prompt the
user if either the recording rate or playback rate are less than 44100
Hz).


When dealing with multiple tracks with multiple sample rates, we
should perhaps convert to our "working rate" as necessary (and prompt
if this reduces the sample rate of the track).

Steve


>
>>
>>> Two ideas (enhancements)
>>> 1- An optional status panel of some kind from view menu, that also
>>> appears
>>> automatically when you do 'interesting' things like mixing bit depth,
>>> sample
>>> rates, using files by reference.  [You can hide it].  It gives you
>>> summary
>>> information, such as 44100Hz : 2 hrs 3mins, on 4 tracks.  96000Hz: 1hr
>>> 1min,
>>> on 2 tracks.
>>> 2 - New 'analysis' effects that set clip colours.  So you can colour code
>>> the sample rates, bit depth, used-by-reference, if you want to.
>>
>> Interesting ideas.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Any ideas?
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>
>

Re: [Audacity-quality] Bit depth of various sources (manual)

[Peter Sampson <petersampsonaudacity@gm...>]

Looks fine to me - much better (but remember I'm an audiot)

Thanks for tidying it up (what was there before smacks of Galeish
over-detail and out of date)

Peter

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 2:51 PM, Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...>
wrote:

> On 10 April 2018 at 23:04, Peter Sampson <petersampsonaudacity@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 10:00 PM, Steve the Fiddle
> > <stevethefiddle@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Looking at this section of the manual:
> >>
> >> https://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Sample_
> Format_-_Bit_Depth#sources
> >>
> >> Some of the figures quoted here look very dubious. For example:
> >>
> >> Cassette: between 6 and 2.5 bits
> >> (Nakamichi Dragon cassette players quote 72dB dynamic range with Dolby
> C)
> >
> >
> > And I'm betting that my (cheaper) Nak BX-2 with The TDK Super Avilyn tape
> > that
> > it was designed and set up for did pretty good too - my (albeit ageing)
> ears
> > tell
> > me so, when played on the hi-fi rig.
> >
> > So I'm guessing you're right Steve ;-))
> >
> >>
> >> FM Radio: 4.5 bits.
> >> If that were true, I doubt that I would ever listen to radio.
> >
> >
> > Just lsiten to the the best that BBC engineers can do on Radio 3 (with
> > minimal compression)
> > ecen on compressed FM Radio 2 the results are pretty darn good.
> >
> >>
> >> If we are to retain this section at, it needs to be more realistic,
> >> but do we need it?
> >> It is probably useful if we can give a general sense of the noise
> >> levels at various bit-depths, but probably not much more than a
> >> passing note.
> >
> >
> > +1
>
> I think I'm done editing this page now. Ready for review:
> https://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Sample_Format_-_Bit_Depth
>
> Steve
>
>
> >
> > Peter.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
> >> Audacity-quality@...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > _______________________________________________
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
> >
>