Re: [Audacity-quality] Time track copy-paste and aup3 import

[James C. <jam...@gm...>]

Paul can you apply your update, with the small fix for those envelope
points?
I'd like this to be in in time for string freeze, so that it goes through
to release.

--James.

On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 19:49, Steve Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 17:47, Paul Licameli <pau...@gm...>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 12:31 PM Peter Sampson <
>> pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 5:25 PM Robert Hänggi <aar...@gm...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just to inform you about the Reaper behaviour:
>>>> It asks you on import if the tempo should be imported as well. This
>>>> applies mainly to MIDI tracks.
>>>> However, it is the nearest to time tracks (apart from the master play
>>>> rate envelope which is treated like all other envelopes like volume,
>>>> pan, width, pitch).
>>>> In essence, if you want that the user can decide, ask him directly and
>>>> don't presume that he knows that he has first to exclude the other
>>>> time track from the project to be imported in order to keep the new
>>>> one.
>>>> Common sense and more user friendly imho.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I like Robert;s thinking here - asking the user, in the situation where
>>> they have a Time Track
>>> on both projects, which one they want to keep sounds eminently sensible
>>> ad as Robert
>>> says user-friendly (also more "discoverable" - removing the chance of
>>> nasty surprises
>>> when the wrong one gets used).
>>>
>>> Peter.
>>>
>>
>> I'd say no for right now and I think RM agrees.
>>
>
> I agree. I think it's a good idea, but we should be close to string freeze
> and I don't think this is urgent.
> Steve
>
>
>>
>> Remember this is incidental to the more important white-box review of
>> Unitary.
>>
>> PRL
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> On 30/01/2021, Peter Sampson <pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>>> > Looking at this page:
>>>> > https://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Time_Tracks
>>>> >
>>>> > I see nothing there about the ability (or expectation) to Cut&Paste
>>>> the
>>>> > Time Track or sections of it.
>>>> >
>>>> > So the ability to do so is either a cunning and tricksy Easter Egg -
>>>> or
>>>> > it's a bug, I'm thinking.
>>>> >
>>>> > And note that this is different from the ability to import a Time
>>>> Track as
>>>> > part of an imported project
>>>> > which is to be allowed.
>>>> >
>>>> > Peter.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Peter.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:56 PM Peter Sampson <
>>>> > pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> BTW although one can edit the Time Track with Cut&Paste, albeit only
>>>> >> through associated audio
>>>> >> we do have an inconsistency as the Time Track does nor
>>>> expand/contract
>>>> >> when the associated
>>>> >> audio is modified with the Change Speed effect.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Peter.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:54 PM Peter Sampson <
>>>> >> pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:47 PM Steve Fiddle <
>>>> ste...@gm...>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 16:32, Peter Sampson <
>>>> >>>> pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:21 PM Steve Fiddle
>>>> >>>>> <ste...@gm...>
>>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Copy and Paste for time  tracks sounds to me like a major can of
>>>> >>>>>> worms. Also, we have recorded precisely zero requests for this
>>>> >>>>>> feature.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I am strongly of the opinion that we should not implement copy /
>>>> >>>>>> paste
>>>> >>>>>> for time tracks until we have a much better implementation of
>>>> time
>>>> >>>>>> tracks.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> It's not a question of whether we implement or not - you can
>>>> already
>>>> >>>>> do
>>>> >>>>> it  - but you need to select in the audio
>>>> >>>>> I only tried this with a single audio track and a time track.
>>>> I've no
>>>> >>>>> idea how it works
>>>> >>>>> a) in a multi-track project - with all or just some tracks with
>>>> >>>>> selected audio
>>>> >>>>> b) when some tracks are above and some below the Time track
>>>> >>>>> c) what the interaction is with Sync-Lock (or other settings)
>>>> >>>>> d) other use cases I haven't thought of yet.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Regarding  importing a project, I think that if both the current
>>>> >>>>>> project and the imported project have time tracks, the imported
>>>> time
>>>> >>>>>> track
>>>> >>>>>> should replace  the current time track. (If the user prefers to
>>>> retain
>>>> >>>>>> the
>>>> >>>>>> current time track, then they need to remove the time track from
>>>> the
>>>> >>>>>> project  that they intend to import.)
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I think it should be the other way around.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> If it is the other way round, then either it is impossible to
>>>> import a
>>>> >>>> time track, or we have some cases where a time track can be
>>>> imported
>>>> >>>> and
>>>> >>>> some cases where it cannot.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On the other hand, if an imported time track overwrites the current
>>>> >>>> time
>>>> >>>> track (if present), then the user has control to either import a
>>>> time
>>>> >>>> track
>>>> >>>> or not. I'm in favour of allowing the user to make this decision
>>>> rather
>>>> >>>> than prohibiting the import of time tracks or introducing "special
>>>> >>>> case"
>>>> >>>> inconsistencies.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Good point,  I concede, I think you're right about this.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Peter.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Steve
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> If you are importing into a project that already has aTime Track
>>>> then
>>>> >>>>> I
>>>> >>>>> think that Time Track should be retained.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> If the user wants the imported Time Track to be used then they
>>>> should
>>>> >>>>> first delete the Time Track in the primary project.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> [image: image.png]
>>>> >>>>> Peter.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Steve
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 15:52, Paul Licameli <
>>>> pau...@gm...>
>>>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> James, please review these details.  Peter, maybe generate some
>>>> bug
>>>> >>>>>>> issues.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> How does copy and paste of time track work, and how should it?
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Short answer:  you can copy and paste time track points, even
>>>> into a
>>>> >>>>>>> project with an existing time track, though not all the
>>>> behavior is
>>>> >>>>>>> intuitive.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Question:  If you import an .aup3 project with a time track,
>>>> should
>>>> >>>>>>> that do the same as paste (pasting at time 0 and shifting other
>>>> >>>>>>> control
>>>> >>>>>>> points right), or should it replace the old time track with a
>>>> new one
>>>> >>>>>>> (but
>>>> >>>>>>> maybe losing some of your data)?  James argues for the second
>>>> >>>>>>> solution, I'm
>>>> >>>>>>> not sure I agree.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> We need agreement on that to commit simplified code for aup3
>>>> import,
>>>> >>>>>>> reducing the amount of sqlite3 calls we need to maintain.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Details.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>    1. Make new project with a time track and some control
>>>> points,
>>>> >>>>>>>    and some generated sound
>>>> >>>>>>>    2. Select all Ctrl + A
>>>> >>>>>>>    3. Select time track and deselect wave track with Ctrl +
>>>> click
>>>> >>>>>>>    4. Try to copy - dialog box tells you to select some audio
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> That has been so at least since 2.3.1:  You can't copy if only
>>>> time
>>>> >>>>>>> track is selected.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> But, if time track is selected and another track -- then is it
>>>> >>>>>>> copied
>>>> >>>>>>> to clipboard?  Since at least 2.3.1, yes, because then pasting
>>>> into
>>>> >>>>>>> another
>>>> >>>>>>> project makes a time track.  So a time track IS copyable.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> But in 2.3.1, the time track points were lost.  2.3.2 changed
>>>> that.
>>>> >>>>>>> Time track points may be inserted into a time track that already
>>>> >>>>>>> exists and
>>>> >>>>>>> has other points.  There may be discontinuities at the edges of
>>>> the
>>>> >>>>>>> paste,
>>>> >>>>>>> arguably correct or not.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> I also notice that if you have cut time & wave tracks, then
>>>> paste
>>>> >>>>>>> into a new project with only a time track -- then, whether the
>>>> wave
>>>> >>>>>>> track
>>>> >>>>>>> pastes or not, depends whether the time track is selected or
>>>> not.  If
>>>> >>>>>>> it
>>>> >>>>>>> was, I only paste time track.  Undo, click background, paste --
>>>> then
>>>> >>>>>>> both
>>>> >>>>>>> paste.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
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