Re: [Audacity-quality] Time track copy-paste and aup3 import

[Steve F. <ste...@gm...>]

On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 17:47, Paul Licameli <pau...@gm...> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 12:31 PM Peter Sampson <
> pet...@gm...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 5:25 PM Robert Hänggi <aar...@gm...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Just to inform you about the Reaper behaviour:
>>> It asks you on import if the tempo should be imported as well. This
>>> applies mainly to MIDI tracks.
>>> However, it is the nearest to time tracks (apart from the master play
>>> rate envelope which is treated like all other envelopes like volume,
>>> pan, width, pitch).
>>> In essence, if you want that the user can decide, ask him directly and
>>> don't presume that he knows that he has first to exclude the other
>>> time track from the project to be imported in order to keep the new
>>> one.
>>> Common sense and more user friendly imho.
>>>
>>
>> I like Robert;s thinking here - asking the user, in the situation where
>> they have a Time Track
>> on both projects, which one they want to keep sounds eminently sensible
>> ad as Robert
>> says user-friendly (also more "discoverable" - removing the chance of
>> nasty surprises
>> when the wrong one gets used).
>>
>> Peter.
>>
>
> I'd say no for right now and I think RM agrees.
>

I agree. I think it's a good idea, but we should be close to string freeze
and I don't think this is urgent.
Steve


>
> Remember this is incidental to the more important white-box review of
> Unitary.
>
> PRL
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Robert
>>>
>>> On 30/01/2021, Peter Sampson <pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>> > Looking at this page:
>>> > https://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Time_Tracks
>>> >
>>> > I see nothing there about the ability (or expectation) to Cut&Paste the
>>> > Time Track or sections of it.
>>> >
>>> > So the ability to do so is either a cunning and tricksy Easter Egg - or
>>> > it's a bug, I'm thinking.
>>> >
>>> > And note that this is different from the ability to import a Time
>>> Track as
>>> > part of an imported project
>>> > which is to be allowed.
>>> >
>>> > Peter.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Peter.
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:56 PM Peter Sampson <
>>> > pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> BTW although one can edit the Time Track with Cut&Paste, albeit only
>>> >> through associated audio
>>> >> we do have an inconsistency as the Time Track does nor expand/contract
>>> >> when the associated
>>> >> audio is modified with the Change Speed effect.
>>> >>
>>> >> Peter.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:54 PM Peter Sampson <
>>> >> pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:47 PM Steve Fiddle <
>>> ste...@gm...>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 16:32, Peter Sampson <
>>> >>>> pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:21 PM Steve Fiddle
>>> >>>>> <ste...@gm...>
>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Copy and Paste for time  tracks sounds to me like a major can of
>>> >>>>>> worms. Also, we have recorded precisely zero requests for this
>>> >>>>>> feature.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I am strongly of the opinion that we should not implement copy /
>>> >>>>>> paste
>>> >>>>>> for time tracks until we have a much better implementation of time
>>> >>>>>> tracks.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> It's not a question of whether we implement or not - you can
>>> already
>>> >>>>> do
>>> >>>>> it  - but you need to select in the audio
>>> >>>>> I only tried this with a single audio track and a time track.
>>> I've no
>>> >>>>> idea how it works
>>> >>>>> a) in a multi-track project - with all or just some tracks with
>>> >>>>> selected audio
>>> >>>>> b) when some tracks are above and some below the Time track
>>> >>>>> c) what the interaction is with Sync-Lock (or other settings)
>>> >>>>> d) other use cases I haven't thought of yet.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Regarding  importing a project, I think that if both the current
>>> >>>>>> project and the imported project have time tracks, the imported
>>> time
>>> >>>>>> track
>>> >>>>>> should replace  the current time track. (If the user prefers to
>>> retain
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> current time track, then they need to remove the time track from
>>> the
>>> >>>>>> project  that they intend to import.)
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I think it should be the other way around.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> If it is the other way round, then either it is impossible to
>>> import a
>>> >>>> time track, or we have some cases where a time track can be imported
>>> >>>> and
>>> >>>> some cases where it cannot.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On the other hand, if an imported time track overwrites the current
>>> >>>> time
>>> >>>> track (if present), then the user has control to either import a
>>> time
>>> >>>> track
>>> >>>> or not. I'm in favour of allowing the user to make this decision
>>> rather
>>> >>>> than prohibiting the import of time tracks or introducing "special
>>> >>>> case"
>>> >>>> inconsistencies.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Good point,  I concede, I think you're right about this.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Peter.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Steve
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> If you are importing into a project that already has aTime Track
>>> then
>>> >>>>> I
>>> >>>>> think that Time Track should be retained.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> If the user wants the imported Time Track to be used then they
>>> should
>>> >>>>> first delete the Time Track in the primary project.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> [image: image.png]
>>> >>>>> Peter.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Steve
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 15:52, Paul Licameli <
>>> pau...@gm...>
>>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> James, please review these details.  Peter, maybe generate some
>>> bug
>>> >>>>>>> issues.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> How does copy and paste of time track work, and how should it?
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Short answer:  you can copy and paste time track points, even
>>> into a
>>> >>>>>>> project with an existing time track, though not all the behavior
>>> is
>>> >>>>>>> intuitive.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Question:  If you import an .aup3 project with a time track,
>>> should
>>> >>>>>>> that do the same as paste (pasting at time 0 and shifting other
>>> >>>>>>> control
>>> >>>>>>> points right), or should it replace the old time track with a
>>> new one
>>> >>>>>>> (but
>>> >>>>>>> maybe losing some of your data)?  James argues for the second
>>> >>>>>>> solution, I'm
>>> >>>>>>> not sure I agree.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> We need agreement on that to commit simplified code for aup3
>>> import,
>>> >>>>>>> reducing the amount of sqlite3 calls we need to maintain.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Details.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>    1. Make new project with a time track and some control points,
>>> >>>>>>>    and some generated sound
>>> >>>>>>>    2. Select all Ctrl + A
>>> >>>>>>>    3. Select time track and deselect wave track with Ctrl + click
>>> >>>>>>>    4. Try to copy - dialog box tells you to select some audio
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> That has been so at least since 2.3.1:  You can't copy if only
>>> time
>>> >>>>>>> track is selected.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> But, if time track is selected and another track -- then is it
>>> >>>>>>> copied
>>> >>>>>>> to clipboard?  Since at least 2.3.1, yes, because then pasting
>>> into
>>> >>>>>>> another
>>> >>>>>>> project makes a time track.  So a time track IS copyable.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> But in 2.3.1, the time track points were lost.  2.3.2 changed
>>> that.
>>> >>>>>>> Time track points may be inserted into a time track that already
>>> >>>>>>> exists and
>>> >>>>>>> has other points.  There may be discontinuities at the edges of
>>> the
>>> >>>>>>> paste,
>>> >>>>>>> arguably correct or not.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> I also notice that if you have cut time & wave tracks, then paste
>>> >>>>>>> into a new project with only a time track -- then, whether the
>>> wave
>>> >>>>>>> track
>>> >>>>>>> pastes or not, depends whether the time track is selected or
>>> not.  If
>>> >>>>>>> it
>>> >>>>>>> was, I only paste time track.  Undo, click background, paste --
>>> then
>>> >>>>>>> both
>>> >>>>>>> paste.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
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