Re: [Audacity-quality] Time track copy-paste and aup3 import

[Paul L. <pau...@gm...>]

On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 12:31 PM Peter Sampson <
pet...@gm...> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 5:25 PM Robert Hänggi <aar...@gm...>
> wrote:
>
>> Just to inform you about the Reaper behaviour:
>> It asks you on import if the tempo should be imported as well. This
>> applies mainly to MIDI tracks.
>> However, it is the nearest to time tracks (apart from the master play
>> rate envelope which is treated like all other envelopes like volume,
>> pan, width, pitch).
>> In essence, if you want that the user can decide, ask him directly and
>> don't presume that he knows that he has first to exclude the other
>> time track from the project to be imported in order to keep the new
>> one.
>> Common sense and more user friendly imho.
>>
>
> I like Robert;s thinking here - asking the user, in the situation where
> they have a Time Track
> on both projects, which one they want to keep sounds eminently sensible ad
> as Robert
> says user-friendly (also more "discoverable" - removing the chance of
> nasty surprises
> when the wrong one gets used).
>
> Peter.
>

I'd say no for right now and I think RM agrees.

Remember this is incidental to the more important white-box review of
Unitary.

PRL



>
>
> Robert
>>
>> On 30/01/2021, Peter Sampson <pet...@gm...> wrote:
>> > Looking at this page:
>> > https://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Time_Tracks
>> >
>> > I see nothing there about the ability (or expectation) to Cut&Paste the
>> > Time Track or sections of it.
>> >
>> > So the ability to do so is either a cunning and tricksy Easter Egg - or
>> > it's a bug, I'm thinking.
>> >
>> > And note that this is different from the ability to import a Time Track
>> as
>> > part of an imported project
>> > which is to be allowed.
>> >
>> > Peter.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Peter.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:56 PM Peter Sampson <
>> > pet...@gm...> wrote:
>> >
>> >> BTW although one can edit the Time Track with Cut&Paste, albeit only
>> >> through associated audio
>> >> we do have an inconsistency as the Time Track does nor expand/contract
>> >> when the associated
>> >> audio is modified with the Change Speed effect.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:54 PM Peter Sampson <
>> >> pet...@gm...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:47 PM Steve Fiddle <
>> ste...@gm...>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 16:32, Peter Sampson <
>> >>>> pet...@gm...> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 4:21 PM Steve Fiddle
>> >>>>> <ste...@gm...>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Copy and Paste for time  tracks sounds to me like a major can of
>> >>>>>> worms. Also, we have recorded precisely zero requests for this
>> >>>>>> feature.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> I am strongly of the opinion that we should not implement copy /
>> >>>>>> paste
>> >>>>>> for time tracks until we have a much better implementation of time
>> >>>>>> tracks.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It's not a question of whether we implement or not - you can already
>> >>>>> do
>> >>>>> it  - but you need to select in the audio
>> >>>>> I only tried this with a single audio track and a time track.  I've
>> no
>> >>>>> idea how it works
>> >>>>> a) in a multi-track project - with all or just some tracks with
>> >>>>> selected audio
>> >>>>> b) when some tracks are above and some below the Time track
>> >>>>> c) what the interaction is with Sync-Lock (or other settings)
>> >>>>> d) other use cases I haven't thought of yet.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Regarding  importing a project, I think that if both the current
>> >>>>>> project and the imported project have time tracks, the imported
>> time
>> >>>>>> track
>> >>>>>> should replace  the current time track. (If the user prefers to
>> retain
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> current time track, then they need to remove the time track from
>> the
>> >>>>>> project  that they intend to import.)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I think it should be the other way around.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If it is the other way round, then either it is impossible to import
>> a
>> >>>> time track, or we have some cases where a time track can be imported
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> some cases where it cannot.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On the other hand, if an imported time track overwrites the current
>> >>>> time
>> >>>> track (if present), then the user has control to either import a time
>> >>>> track
>> >>>> or not. I'm in favour of allowing the user to make this decision
>> rather
>> >>>> than prohibiting the import of time tracks or introducing "special
>> >>>> case"
>> >>>> inconsistencies.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Good point,  I concede, I think you're right about this.
>> >>>
>> >>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Steve
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If you are importing into a project that already has aTime Track
>> then
>> >>>>> I
>> >>>>> think that Time Track should be retained.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If the user wants the imported Time Track to be used then they
>> should
>> >>>>> first delete the Time Track in the primary project.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> [image: image.png]
>> >>>>> Peter.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Steve
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 15:52, Paul Licameli <
>> pau...@gm...>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> James, please review these details.  Peter, maybe generate some
>> bug
>> >>>>>>> issues.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> How does copy and paste of time track work, and how should it?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Short answer:  you can copy and paste time track points, even
>> into a
>> >>>>>>> project with an existing time track, though not all the behavior
>> is
>> >>>>>>> intuitive.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Question:  If you import an .aup3 project with a time track,
>> should
>> >>>>>>> that do the same as paste (pasting at time 0 and shifting other
>> >>>>>>> control
>> >>>>>>> points right), or should it replace the old time track with a new
>> one
>> >>>>>>> (but
>> >>>>>>> maybe losing some of your data)?  James argues for the second
>> >>>>>>> solution, I'm
>> >>>>>>> not sure I agree.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> We need agreement on that to commit simplified code for aup3
>> import,
>> >>>>>>> reducing the amount of sqlite3 calls we need to maintain.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Details.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>    1. Make new project with a time track and some control points,
>> >>>>>>>    and some generated sound
>> >>>>>>>    2. Select all Ctrl + A
>> >>>>>>>    3. Select time track and deselect wave track with Ctrl + click
>> >>>>>>>    4. Try to copy - dialog box tells you to select some audio
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> That has been so at least since 2.3.1:  You can't copy if only
>> time
>> >>>>>>> track is selected.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> But, if time track is selected and another track -- then is it
>> >>>>>>> copied
>> >>>>>>> to clipboard?  Since at least 2.3.1, yes, because then pasting
>> into
>> >>>>>>> another
>> >>>>>>> project makes a time track.  So a time track IS copyable.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> But in 2.3.1, the time track points were lost.  2.3.2 changed
>> that.
>> >>>>>>> Time track points may be inserted into a time track that already
>> >>>>>>> exists and
>> >>>>>>> has other points.  There may be discontinuities at the edges of
>> the
>> >>>>>>> paste,
>> >>>>>>> arguably correct or not.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I also notice that if you have cut time & wave tracks, then paste
>> >>>>>>> into a new project with only a time track -- then, whether the
>> wave
>> >>>>>>> track
>> >>>>>>> pastes or not, depends whether the time track is selected or
>> not.  If
>> >>>>>>> it
>> >>>>>>> was, I only paste time track.  Undo, click background, paste --
>> then
>> >>>>>>> both
>> >>>>>>> paste.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >
>>
>>
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