Re: [Audacity-quality] Future: punch-in-and-out etc.
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From: Robert H. <aar...@gm...> - 2018-06-17 20:40:16
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On 17/06/2018, Paul Licameli <pau...@gm...> wrote: > On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 6:51 PM, James Crook <cr...@in...> wrote: > >> On 15/06/2018 22:13, Bill Wharrie wrote: >> >>> Top-posting to make a couple of points so they aren’t buried in multiple >>> levels … >>> >>> James - re: >>> >>>> Our current ability to record to a fixed time is a bear trap. When >>>> recording voice, re-recording to a fixed time almost never ever makes >>>> sense. The way you say things affects how long the recorded segment >>>> is. >>>> Having your recording punch-out before you complete it would be >>>> infuriating. So when punch-out is implemented, I will be straightaway >>>> disabling it in preferences for myself. I'd also like to disable >>>> recording >>>> to a fixed time! I'd like both disabled by default. They are >>>> dangerous. >>>> >>> Agreed, for voice work. I’m talking about musicians correcting, for >>> example, one bar of a bass part in a multi-track project. In that case >>> you >>> want to record over exactly one bar. It is the same every time because >>> the >>> bass player is playing against the rest of the already-recorded >>> instruments. >>> >> OK. We are on the same page here. >> >> >> >> >>> James - re: >>> >>>> there are three choices rather than an enable/disable: >>>> >>>> - Robert: Range shifts stuff to the right of the range rightwards. >>>> - Steve: Range, if present, is the pre-roll. The stuff to the right is >>>> deleted. >>>> - Peter: Range, if present, indicates punch-out point too. >>>> >>>> I'd be heavily plumping for Robert as the default. >>>> >>> I’d be plumping for Peter (and me!) as the default, because I’m thinking >>> of musicians punching in a correction, not narrators punching in. I >>> agree >>> that punch-in/out is unlikely to be popular with narrators. >>> Perhaps we could have “narrator mode” and “musician mode”? >>> >> Hmm. >> >> Narrator = Robert >> Musician = Peter/Bill > > > I don't understand Robert's proposal (what original quote from Robert?). Did you see my post (three posts back). It states clearly what I mean. And no, copy and paste is not adequate for this kind of thing. Let's say you have a sentence like "We arrived in Bucharest at 10:00 pm." but you realize that that is the wrong city. Thus, you mark "Bucharest", press delete (collapses to a point) and do the splice record. You speak along the beginning and say then "Budapest". Now, you have to press stop and it may change back to playback--the post-roll. The idea is the same as with Shift+D, the pre-roll provides the necessary speech flow and mind-set. That's pretty complicated to do with recording into a new track, copy the right region, paste and replace the old region and add the two cross-fades. The punch In/Out (i.e. a selection is active before splice-record) does not move the audio right and should only record within that region. Robert > > If the duration if the new piece of recording is not determined by > selection, how then? By hitting of the stop? But then there is much > imprecision in that. > > Are we talking about splicing a correction of a misspoken word or phrase > discovered only after proofing (narrators tend to call it a "pick-up")? My > experience is that copy and paste is adequate for this. I do not see how > punch-in and out would really help. > > So I am with Peter -- seeing the punch-out as a useful thing for the > musicians who deal with precisly measured material. > > > > >> >> >> >> Or, if punching in/out one track of a multi-track project it behaves as >>> musicians want it to, and if punching-in/out in a single-track project >>> it >>> behaves the way narrators want it to? >>> >> >> No. Narrators use multiple tracks too. >> >> >> Paul - re: >>> >>>> Having to select the pre-roll duration each time would complicate the >>>> use of the feature needlessly. A fixed constant duration should do for >>>> the >>>> purposes I see. >>>> >>> That’s not how I see it working. The user has a pre-roll indicator on a >>> ruler. Once set, that pre-roll time is used for every subsequent punch >>> recording. When clicking in the track to indicate the punch point, the >>> pre-roll indicator moves to show where the pre-roll will start (and >>> similarly for post-roll). >>> So the user doesn’t have to visit preferences every time. But it is much >>> easier for the user to adjust the pre-roll to suit each specific >>> situation >>> if they want, for example to have the pre-roll start at the beginning of >>> a >>> sentence or phrase. I don’t find it all that hard to find a spot by >>> eying >>> the waveform, but we could allow a click or drag on the pre-roll >>> indicator >>> to automatically preview the pre-roll. >>> >> Labels on the ruler perhaps? >> >> Remember, I’m coming at this from the experience of musicians recording >>> multi-track projects. >>> I don’t understand the push-back against this standard feature >>> (user-adjustable pre-roll indicator in a ruler) of every DAW out there. >>> >> The strong push back is only for 2.3.0, where Paul is looking to get 90% >> of the value of the feature with the minimal amount of UI development >> work. >> >> Finally, I want to lobby one more time for punch-and-roll to require a >>> point selection. This is for consistency with the future punch-in/out >>> functionality which will require a region. If we allow punch-and-roll >>> with >>> a region, then when we implement punch-in/out we will have to: >>> a) have a different command, or >>> b) no longer allow punch-and-roll with a region selection, neither of >>> which seems ideal. >>> >> But Bill, features do develop and change. Labels initially did not have >> draggable edges. They changed quite radically and it was not a problem >> at >> all. >> >> ONE possibility I could accept for 2.3.0 is to have a preference for >> >> Musician mode >> Narrator mode >> >> And further, we accept that these are not in their final form. >> >> Musician mode pops up an error message, if you use a range selection, >> because we don't yet have a post roll, and post cross-fade, and we are >> not >> intending to do that for 2.3.0 >> Narrator mode treats a range selection as a point, because we don't yet >> have a push-clip right feature, and are not intending to do that for >> 2.3.0 >> >> I'm not keen. It's unnecessary. But if it makes you and Peter happier, >> then we can do that easily. Even make musician mode the default. >> >> >> >> Also, as Peter has pointed out, the current behaviour of Audacity when >>> recording with a region selection present is to record in that time >>> range >>> only. By allowing punch-and-roll to use a region (but ignore the right >>> edge >>> of the region) we are being inconsistent. >>> >> Indeed. So we should for consistency disable the recording with a range >> and make it push clips right! (the militant narrator in me talking >> here). >> > > I am inclined to leave the small inconsistency for 2.3.0. > > Punch and roll is not the same command as ordinary recording. By not > requiring a point selection, the usage of it is less restricted. > > But the feature can be subject to revision in future versions, when we > generalize it to a punch-in-and-out recording. And perhaps a narrator mode > preference could make the command continue to act as now, that is, one > disables the punch-out option if it's not useful to one's work. > > I remind you again, I also want to consider looping play that responds to > change of selection, and perhaps that will be of use in deciding the > punch-in point too, and one is spared the extra arrow key stroke to > collapse the region to a point. > > PRL > > > >> >> The ruler with dragable positions, but auto-placed initially is I think >> the way to go. >> And we need to face up to record having multiple modes and options, and >> stop regarding it as a single function. We already know play has >> multiple >> options. We are reaching the point where properly sorting the UI for >> that >> is becoming urgent. >> >> --James. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >> _______________________________________________ >> Audacity-quality mailing list >> Aud...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality >> > |