Re: [Audacity-quality] Future: punch-in-and-out etc.

[Robert H. <aar...@gm...>]

On 17/06/2018, Paul Licameli <pau...@gm...> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 6:51 PM, James Crook <cr...@in...> wrote:
>
>> On 15/06/2018 22:13, Bill Wharrie wrote:
>>
>>> Top-posting to make a couple of points so they aren’t buried in multiple
>>> levels …
>>>
>>> James - re:
>>>
>>>> Our current ability to record to a fixed time is a bear trap.  When
>>>> recording voice, re-recording to a fixed time almost never ever makes
>>>> sense.  The way you say things affects how long the recorded segment
>>>> is.
>>>> Having your recording punch-out before you complete it would be
>>>> infuriating.  So when punch-out is implemented, I will be straightaway
>>>> disabling it in preferences for myself.  I'd also like to disable
>>>> recording
>>>> to a fixed time!  I'd like both disabled by default.  They are
>>>> dangerous.
>>>>
>>> Agreed, for voice work. I’m talking about musicians correcting, for
>>> example, one bar of a bass part in a multi-track project. In that case
>>> you
>>> want to record over exactly one bar. It is the same every time because
>>> the
>>> bass player is playing against the rest of the already-recorded
>>> instruments.
>>>
>> OK.  We are on the same page here.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> James - re:
>>>
>>>> there are three choices rather than an enable/disable:
>>>>
>>>> - Robert: Range shifts stuff to the right of the range rightwards.
>>>> - Steve: Range, if present, is the pre-roll.  The stuff to the right is
>>>> deleted.
>>>> - Peter: Range, if present, indicates punch-out point too.
>>>>
>>>> I'd be heavily plumping for Robert as the default.
>>>>
>>> I’d be plumping for Peter (and me!) as the default, because I’m thinking
>>> of musicians punching in a correction, not narrators punching in. I
>>> agree
>>> that punch-in/out is unlikely to be popular with narrators.
>>> Perhaps we could have “narrator mode” and “musician mode”?
>>>
>> Hmm.
>>
>> Narrator = Robert
>> Musician = Peter/Bill
>
>
> I don't understand Robert's proposal (what original quote from Robert?).


Did you see my post (three posts back).
It states clearly what I mean.
And no, copy and paste is not adequate for this kind of thing.

Let's say you have a sentence like
"We arrived in Bucharest at 10:00 pm."
but you realize that that is the wrong city.
Thus, you mark "Bucharest", press delete (collapses to a point) and do
the splice record.
You speak along the beginning and say then "Budapest".
Now, you have to press stop and it may change back to playback--the post-roll.

The idea is the same as with Shift+D, the pre-roll provides the
necessary speech flow and mind-set.
That's pretty complicated to do with recording into a new track, copy
the right region, paste and replace the old region and add the two
cross-fades.

The punch In/Out (i.e. a selection is active before splice-record)
does not move the audio right and should only record within that
region.

Robert


>
> If the duration if the new piece of recording is not determined by
> selection, how then?  By hitting of the stop?  But then there is much
> imprecision in that.
>
> Are we talking about splicing a correction of a misspoken word or phrase
> discovered only after proofing (narrators tend to call it a "pick-up")?  My
> experience is that copy and paste is adequate for this.  I do not see how
> punch-in and out would really help.
>
> So I am with Peter -- seeing the punch-out as a useful thing for the
> musicians who deal with precisly measured material.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Or, if punching in/out one track of a multi-track project it behaves as
>>> musicians want it to, and if punching-in/out in a single-track project
>>> it
>>> behaves the way narrators want it to?
>>>
>>
>> No.  Narrators use multiple tracks too.
>>
>>
>> Paul - re:
>>>
>>>> Having to select the pre-roll duration each time would complicate the
>>>> use of the feature needlessly.  A fixed constant duration should do for
>>>> the
>>>> purposes I see.
>>>>
>>> That’s not how I see it working. The user has a pre-roll indicator on a
>>> ruler. Once set, that pre-roll time is used for every subsequent punch
>>> recording. When clicking in the track to indicate the punch point, the
>>> pre-roll indicator moves to show where the pre-roll will start (and
>>> similarly for post-roll).
>>> So the user doesn’t have to visit preferences every time. But it is much
>>> easier for the user to adjust the pre-roll to suit each specific
>>> situation
>>> if they want, for example to have the pre-roll start at the beginning of
>>> a
>>> sentence or phrase. I don’t find it all that hard to find a spot by
>>> eying
>>> the waveform, but we could allow a click or drag on the pre-roll
>>> indicator
>>> to automatically preview the pre-roll.
>>>
>> Labels on the ruler perhaps?
>>
>> Remember, I’m coming at this from the experience of musicians recording
>>> multi-track projects.
>>> I don’t understand the push-back against this standard feature
>>> (user-adjustable pre-roll indicator in a ruler) of every DAW out there.
>>>
>> The strong push back is only for 2.3.0, where Paul is looking to get 90%
>> of the value of the feature with the minimal amount of UI development
>> work.
>>
>> Finally, I want to lobby one more time for punch-and-roll to require a
>>> point selection. This is for consistency with the future punch-in/out
>>> functionality which will require a region. If we allow punch-and-roll
>>> with
>>> a region, then when we implement punch-in/out we will have to:
>>> a) have a different command, or
>>> b) no longer allow punch-and-roll with a region selection, neither of
>>> which seems ideal.
>>>
>> But Bill, features do develop and change.  Labels initially did not have
>> draggable edges.  They changed quite radically and it was not a problem
>> at
>> all.
>>
>> ONE possibility I could accept for 2.3.0 is to have a preference for
>>
>> Musician mode
>> Narrator mode
>>
>> And further, we accept that these are not in their final form.
>>
>> Musician mode pops up an error message, if you use a range selection,
>> because we don't yet have a post roll, and post cross-fade, and we are
>> not
>> intending to do that for 2.3.0
>> Narrator mode treats a range selection as a point, because we don't yet
>> have a push-clip right feature, and are not intending to do that for
>> 2.3.0
>>
>> I'm not keen.  It's unnecessary.  But if it makes you and Peter happier,
>> then we can do that easily.  Even make musician mode the default.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, as Peter has pointed out, the current behaviour of Audacity when
>>> recording with a region selection present is to record in that time
>>> range
>>> only. By allowing punch-and-roll to use a region (but ignore the right
>>> edge
>>> of the region) we are being inconsistent.
>>>
>> Indeed.  So we should for consistency disable the recording with a range
>> and make it push clips right!  (the militant narrator in me talking
>> here).
>>
>
> I am inclined to leave the small inconsistency for 2.3.0.
>
> Punch and roll is not the same command as ordinary recording.  By not
> requiring a point selection, the usage of it is less restricted.
>
> But the feature can be subject to revision in future versions, when we
> generalize it to a punch-in-and-out recording.  And perhaps a narrator mode
> preference could make the command continue to act as now, that is, one
> disables the punch-out option if it's not useful to one's work.
>
> I remind you again, I also want to consider looping play that responds to
> change of selection, and perhaps that will be of use in deciding the
> punch-in point too, and one is spared the extra arrow key stroke to
> collapse the region to a point.
>
> PRL
>
>
>
>>
>> The ruler with dragable positions, but auto-placed initially is I think
>> the way to go.
>> And we need to face up to record having multiple modes and options, and
>> stop regarding it as a single function.  We already know play has
>> multiple
>> options.  We are reaching the point where properly sorting the UI for
>> that
>> is becoming urgent.
>>
>> --James.
>>
>>
>>
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