Re: [Audacity-devel] Additional selection option--would it be useful?

[James C. <cr...@in...>]

On 5/21/2017 12:22 AM, Federico Miyara wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Some sort of multiselection would be useful in order to apply the same
> effect to more thane one interval. In word processing software, for
> instance, usually holding Ctrl allows multiselection.
>
> Regards,
>
> Federico
+1

Paul's work on refactoring the track panel is also making the code for 
selection cleaner.  Cleaner code for selection, i.e. keeping it more 
localised, is a prerequisite for multi-selection (in my opinion).

An apply-at-labels option would progress us quite a long way towards 
true multi-selection.

The selection toolbar is currently designed for just one selection. With 
two navigation buttons, selection toolbar could be made into a label (or 
clip) navigator and we should, in my opinion, be putting selections, 
clips and labels 'on the same footing' in a certain sense.

So, multi-selection is related to multi-clip and multi-labels in my 
opinion.  We should be aiming to use the same code.

I think full multi-selection is too-much/too-much-risk for 2.2.0. Apply 
effect at labels would be nice for 2.2.0 and it is a smaller safer step.

--James.


>
>
> On 20/05/2017 15:04, James Crook wrote:
>> On 5/20/2017 6:35 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>> On 20/05/2017, James Crook <cr...@in...> wrote:
>>>> Robert,
>>>>
>>>> How about if the options are  to show:
>>>>
>>>> Start - End
>>>> Start - Length
>>>> Length - End
>>>> Start - End - Length
>>>> Start - End - Length - Center.
>>>>
>>>> If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
>>>> You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
>>>>
>>>> If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
>>>> use one of the last two options.  If you want to set Length and End, for
>>>> example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
>>>> Start,  and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.
>>>>
>>> Sounds good.
>>> Where do you want to place these options?
>>> I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
>>> when approaching from "Snap-to".
>> I wanted to put them in the context menu, at the top of the list, just
>> for convenience/ease of programming, and then iterate on that after
>> 2.2.0.  But OK, I won't.
>>
>> A choice box like the snap-to one is the next easiest, but could not
>> live above the numerical controls as there is not enough room (and we
>> can't/shouldn't make the selection toolbar taller).
>>
>> So I think for 2.2.0 it means a button on the toolbar that opens a
>> menu.  After 2.2.0 the button will open a dialog instead, and we can put
>> a lot more options in that dialog.
>>
>> I'll also include 'Center - Length' and 'Start - Center - Length' as
>> options.
>>
>> Good to go?
>>
>> --James.
>>
>>
>>> It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
>>> the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
>>> verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
>>> time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
>>>
>>> If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
>>> option with Center.
>>> Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
>>> fashion we've elaborated.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>> That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
>>>> full display of Start-End-Length-Center.  But I think that is reasonable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/20/2017 3:34 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>> I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
>>>>>> would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
>>>>>> using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
>>>>>> Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.
>>>>>>
>>>>> It does not yet appeal to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
>>>>> modification:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Start End and Length are always shown
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. The radio group would look something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Move Start/End
>>>>>
>>>>> * Free  (same as currently "End")
>>>>> * together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
>>>>> possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
>>>>> (optionally:)
>>>>> * Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
>>>>> at the same time in the opposite direction)
>>>>>
>>>>> Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
>>>>> only be stretched but not moved.
>>>>> Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
>>>>> other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
>>>>> However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>> "Move Start/End"
>>>>> ...
>>>>> * When Adjusting Length"
>>>>>
>>>>> Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the
>>>>> selection.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
>>>>> your changes).
>>>>> The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
>>>>> time displayed.
>>>>> The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it
>>>>> checked.
>>>>>
>>>>> The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
>>>>> further development will have.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
>>>>>>>>>> both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar.  For
>>>>>>>>>> labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> selections.  We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
>>>>>>>>>> points, so the end of one label is the start of the next.  For clips,
>>>>>>>>>> length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
>>>>>>>>>> Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length +
>>>>>>>>>> End'
>>>>>>>>>> as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same
>>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Translating that point back to the Selection Toolbar, we'd want
>>>>>>>>>> options:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Start + End
>>>>>>>>>> Start + Length
>>>>>>>>>> Length + End
>>>>>>>>>> Center + Span
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think radio buttons no longer suit.   Instead I'm suggesting titles
>>>>>>>>>> above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
>>>>>>>>>> show.  Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility.  If you had
>>>>>>>>>> the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.
>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>> I was always for displaying start-length-end.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
>>>>>>>>> keyboard, doesn't matter).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Imagine the following situation:
>>>>>>>>> The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
>>>>>>>>> same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
>>>>>>>>> length.
>>>>>>>>> Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
>>>>>>>>> "Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
>>>>>>>>> Selection" as possible tooltips.
>>>>>>>> I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
>>>>>>>> designed to work fine without them.
>>>>>>>> I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
>>>>>>>> preserve (read only) when making changes.  With four values (start,
>>>>>>>> end,
>>>>>>>> length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
>>>>>>>> (lock) one value and modify any of the others.  So there are four modes
>>>>>>>> of operation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
>>>>>>>> Start locked, you can  change any of length, end or center.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and so on.  In each mode you can change any of the three values that
>>>>>>>> isn't locked.
>>>>>>>> So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
>>>>>>>> shortcuts to set which value is locked.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
>>>>>>>> recently changed value.  So a user who sets start and then end, or
>>>>>>>> start
>>>>>>>> and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
>>>>>>>> want.  It is not a bad principle.  The principle is that whatever value
>>>>>>>> they set last is what they actually want for that value.  Users may not
>>>>>>>> figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck.  If they
>>>>>>>> just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
>>>>>>>> very understandable.  Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
>>>>>>>> changed.  So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
>>>>>>>> approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
>>>>>>>> values are shown.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
>>>>>>>>> without the Span box itself visible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's one disadvantage to the "Show all controls approach":
>>>>>>>>> Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
>>>>>>>>> well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
>>>>>>>>> You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
>>>>>>>>> the length.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>>>> For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
>>>>>>>>> think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
>>>>>>>>> For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
>>>>>>>>> trim it, time stretch it or what?
>>>>>>>> My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed.  You can only change
>>>>>>>> the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate
>>>>>>>> silence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.
>>>>>>>> So I am now a bit unsure what to implement.  I think I will just (for
>>>>>>>> now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You
>>>>>>>> select
>>>>>>>> them from the number-format drop-down menu.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does that sound a good plan?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing more of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> values, without the underlying rules changing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps used
>>>>>>>>>> as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
>>>>>>>>>> clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
>>>>>>>>>> left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its
>>>>>>>>>> length)
>>>>>>>>>> that way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to
>>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>>> them again in the next iteration.  So I am suggesting we instead take
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar.  For
>>>>>>>>>> 2.2.0
>>>>>>>>>> the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text.  Changing them
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
>>>>>>>>>> That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
>>>>>>>>>> four new options at the top.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all
>>>>>>>>>> four
>>>>>>>>>> fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to
>>>>>>>>>> configure
>>>>>>>>>> the toolbar in more detail.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/19/2017 2:58 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
>>>>>>>>>>> namely
>>>>>>>>>>> nicely.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the
>>>>>>>>>>> change... ;)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length"
>>>>>>>>>>> control.
>>>>>>>>>>> A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
>>>>>>>>>>> have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
>>>>>>>>>>> meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
>>>>>>>>>>> back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
>>>>>>>>>>> unintentionally.
>>>>>>>>>>> Changing the value does not mean the same.
>>>>>>>>>>> - with start checked, the length will increase towards the right
>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>> - with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
>>>>>>>>>>> I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities
>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>> - "Span"
>>>>>>>>>>> - "Extent"
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>> that could serve as alias.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. We have now two radio button groups.
>>>>>>>>>>> As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is
>>>>>>>>>>> confusing
>>>>>>>>>>> for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
>>>>>>>>>>> Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
>>>>>>>>>>> Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn
>>>>>>>>>>> apart.
>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> pay off to have the combination Center+End?
>>>>>>>>>>> Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length"
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> for the same reason.
>>>>>>>>>>> I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
>>>>>>>>>>> alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
>>>>>>>>>>> well, e.g. "Center/Right".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 09/05/2017, Peter Sampson <pet...@gm...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a personal use case for this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer
>>>>>>>>>>>> Record
>>>>>>>>>>>> while I sleep.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The following morning I deal with the editing/processing.  One of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> key
>>>>>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>>>>>> to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station)
>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhere
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in
>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>> respect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour
>>>>>>>>>>>> mark.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert's suggestion would aid that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>>>>>>