Re: [Audacity-quality] Stop and edit on Pause
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From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2016-10-21 18:02:28
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On 21 October 2016 at 17:47, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > On 21 October 2016 at 17:38, Peter Sampson > <pet...@gm...> wrote: >> Gale wrote: >>>Is there a reason I am not seeing why recorded tracks >>>are not selected? > > because it's always been that way so to change it woul be a regression? What is the use case for that lack of selection, that would make people cry "regression" if we selected the newly created recording track? We select a newly created generated track. >> I'm not seing that on W10 - just tested: >> >> 1) Set "select all if none selected" to be "on" >> 2) create two mono tracks >> 3) move cursor to home => no selection >> 4) press record >> 5) press Pause >> 6) invoke Effect>Amplify >> 7) amplify applied to all 3 tracks including the paused recording >> one, and Pause button "up" When you record a new track, it is not selected. So a "Select all in selected tracks, if no selection" option which we are discussing would not actually select the newly recorded track. Gale > Another test: > > 1) Create two 30 second audio tracks > 2) Select from 10 to 20 seconds in tracks 1 and 2. > 3) Press Record and record for about 5 seconds, then pause. > 4) Normalize. > > Probably what you want is to normalize the newly recorded audio, but > actually it normalizes the selection in tracks 1 and 2. > > Steve > > >> >> Peter >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 5:17 PM, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote: >>> >>> If there was a new option for Select all... if none" to only >>> select all in selected tracks, or even if the behaviour >>> changed to that without an option to select all the project, >>> it would solve much of the problem. I don't see a lot of >>> regression risk in that because I would expect most >>> people using this preference to be using single track >>> projects. >>> >>> This would not help the case of recording a track, then >>> Pause or Stop and apply an effect, because newly >>> recorded tracks are not selected. Rather than have the >>> rule to select all in selected or focused tracks, I would >>> rather that newly recorded tracks are selected. >>> >>> Is there a reason I am not seeing why recorded tracks >>> are not selected? >>> >>> >>> Gale >>> >>> On 21 October 2016 at 16:22, Peter Sampson >>> <pet...@gm...> wrote: >>> > I'be been thinking more about this; >>> > >>> > a) I do think that the same selection behavior should obtain whether the >>> > user users >>> > Atop or Pause and then issues an edit command - it should be this way >>> > for >>> > consistency >>> > I believe. >>> > >>> > b) But I am minded to agree that there may be an issue with with the >>> > "Select >>> > all if none >>> > selected" I can see why folk are saying it should just be the current >>> > track >>> > and not >>> > all tracks that should be selected - but does that mean the currently >>> > focussed trcack >>> > or is it, when paused while recording, the currently recording track? >>> > I >>> > have no real >>> > skin in this particular gane as I typically do not work in a mult-track >>> > envirinment and >>> > I always explicitly make my own selections (having carefully turned off >>> > the >>> > "select all >>> > if none selected" option. >>> > >>> > c) but I can also see that changing the behavior now of "select all if >>> > none >>> > selected" >>> > would clearly cause a regression which could well annoy many users who >>> > are >>> > used to >>> > the current behavior. >>> > >>> > d) So maybe we need to think about an additional Tracks preference >>> > setting >>> > fo: >>> > "Select all in current track if none selected". This would obviously be >>> > mutually >>> > exclusive with the current setting for "select all if none selected. >>> > >>> > Peter >>> > >>> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> >>> > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> On 21 October 2016 at 01:31, Steve the Fiddle >>> >> <ste...@gm...> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> > On 21 October 2016 at 01:08, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> >>> >> > wrote: >>> >> >> On 21 October 2016 at 00:16, Peter Sampson >>> >> >> <pet...@gm...> wrote: >>> >> >>> Gale wrote: >>> >> >>>>I think most of us do agree that "Select all... if none" is too >>> >> >>>>coarse, essential as it is. Applying a real-time preview effect >>> >> >>>>with one track of two selected, no selection region, shows >>> >> >>>>this very well. The effect is applied to both tracks >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> From a purely personal point of view I never want assumptions made >>> >> >>> on my behalf regarding what should or should not be selected. >>> >> >>> I*always* want to be in control of what is elected for action, >>> >> >>> which >>> >> >>> is >>> >> >>> why I always have that "Select all if none selected" option >>> >> >>> definitively >>> >> >>> turmned "off". >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> Personally I would be in favour of losing that preference/option >>> >> >>> altogether >>> >> >>> and if folk try to effect a command with no selection made then an >>> >> >>> error >>> >> >>> message would be raised to advise the user to make a selection for >>> >> >>> that >>> >> >>> action to operate upon (but I suspect that ain't gonna happen). >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Probably not, just like we did not want error messages from >>> >> >> an active Effect Menu that user was paused. >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > When we just greyed out the effects (without explanation), there was >>> >> > probably more reason for the "Select All ..." behaviour, but as we >>> >> > don't need to do that now, the main reason for it has gone. >>> >> >>> >> No. Without "Select all... if none", and if there was no selection >>> >> region, then all non-RTP effects are greyed out. >>> >> >>> >> Not only would we have a resumption of "the effects are greyed out" >>> >> complaints, we would have "some effects are greyed out, >>> >> but not others". It would be useless for naive users until all or >>> >> almost all shipped effects were RTP. >>> >> >>> >> And regardless, not having to select anything when you want to select >>> >> all of the only track in the project is a time and RSI saving. >>> >> Note what Cliff said. Let's think not just of naive users, but of those >>> >> who use Audacity for the same tasks over and over again every day. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Gale >>> >> >>> >> > We already have a suitable error message for real-time preview >>> >> > effects: >>> >> > "You must select audio in the project window." >>> >> > >>> >> > Steve >>> >> > >>> >> >> Gale >>> >> >> >>> >> >>> Just my personal POV (and the way I have my options set). >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> Peter. >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 9:42 PM, Gale Andrews >>> >> >>> <ga...@au...> >>> >> >>> wrote: >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> Peter, it is consistent, but I'm talking about what would be most >>> >> >>>> useful given the new functionality. >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> IMO, we're throwing away information about the editing cursor >>> >> >>>> and paused playback position which "could" let us make a better >>> >> >>>> decision on what to select when there is no selection. As I see >>> >> >>>> it, >>> >> >>>> it's a specific case of Stop and Set Cursor so we could be >>> >> >>>> different. >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> How far would we argue consistency? To be "consistent" we >>> >> >>>> might also have to apply any different rule about implied >>> >> >>>> selection >>> >> >>>> when paused to real-time preview effects too. But given we are >>> >> >>>> not forcing a Stop in that case I think it makes less sense there. >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> I think most of us do agree that "Select all... if none" is too >>> >> >>>> coarse, essential as it is. Applying a real-time preview effect >>> >> >>>> with one track of two selected, no selection region, shows >>> >> >>>> this very well. The effect is applied to both tracks. >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> So perhaps making that less "coarse" is the consensus >>> >> >>>> solution. >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> Gale >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> On 20 October 2016 at 20:40, Peter Sampson >>> >> >>>> <pet...@gm...> wrote: >>> >> >>>> > Gale wrote at the outset of this thread: >>> >> >>>> >>Although this prevents users getting stuck in confusion, how >>> >> >>>> >> useful >>> >> >>>> >> is >>> >> >>>> >>the current behaviour when the user chooses an action that >>> >> >>>> >> depends >>> >> >>>> >> on >>> >> >>>> >>a selection? When we stop we currently do "Select All" if there >>> >> >>>> >> is >>> >> >>>> >> no >>> >> >>>> >>selection, or retain the selection if there is one. >>> >> >>>> > >>> >> >>>> > Actually the behavior appears to be (following testing) exactly >>> >> >>>> > the >>> >> >>>> > same >>> >> >>>> > in >>> >> >>>> > the "act when paused" state as when trying to effect an action >>> >> >>>> > that >>> >> >>>> > depends >>> >> >>>> > on a selection when in the "proper" Stopped state >>> >> >>>> > >>> >> >>>> > 1) If the user has made or makes a selection then the action >>> >> >>>> > works >>> >> >>>> > on >>> >> >>>> > that >>> >> >>>> > selectiom >>> >> >>>> > >>> >> >>>> > 2) If the user has no selection then what happens depends on the >>> >> >>>> > setting >>> >> >>>> > in >>> >> >>>> > the Tracks pane of Preferences for "Slect all audio in project, >>> >> >>>> > if >>> >> >>>> > none >>> >> >>>> > selected" >>> >> >>>> > >>> >> >>>> > 2.1 If this is checked on (default) then all audio will be >>> >> >>>> > selected >>> >> >>>> > for >>> >> >>>> > the >>> >> >>>> > action >>> >> >>>> > >>> >> >>>> > 2.2 If this is checked off then any action depending on a >>> >> >>>> > selection >>> >> >>>> > is >>> >> >>>> > inhibited >>> >> >>>> > and the commands for such actions are grayed-out. >>> >> >>>> > >>> >> >>>> > >>> >> >>>> > Now since this is the behavior that we have always had with >>> >> >>>> > Audacity >>> >> >>>> > since >>> >> >>>> > time >>> >> >>>> > immorial for such actions when in "Stop" mode then it seems >>> >> >>>> > rather >>> >> >>>> > inconsistent >>> >> >>>> > to expect different behavior when in "Pause" mode. >>> >> >>>> > >>> >> >>>> > So to answer Gale's original question I think the current >>> >> >>>> > behvior >>> >> >>>> > is >>> >> >>>> > exactly >>> >> >>>> > what >>> >> >>>> > existing users of Audacity (of which there are many millions) >>> >> >>>> > would >>> >> >>>> > expect - >>> >> >>>> > and >>> >> >>>> > yes such behavior is extremely useful (especially since a) it >>> >> >>>> > avoids >>> >> >>>> > users >>> >> >>>> > getting >>> >> >>>> > stuck unwittingly in Pause modec and b) exhibits consistent >>> >> >>>> > behaviot to >>> >> >>>> > that >>> >> >>>> > which >>> >> >>>> > obtains when one is in Stop mode. >>> >> >>>> > >>> >> >>>> > Cheers, >>> >> >>>> > Peter. >>> >> >>>> > >>> >> >>>> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:13 PM, Gale Andrews >>> >> >>>> > <ga...@au...> >>> >> >>>> > wrote: >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> On 20 October 2016 at 18:24, Peter Sampson >>> >> >>>> >> <pet...@gm...> wrote: >>> >> >>>> >> > Gale wrote: >>> >> >>>> >> >>Right, but I think many users don't know about the relevant >>> >> >>>> >> >>useful commands "Stop and Set Cursor" and "Select Right at >>> >> >>>> >> >> Playback >>> >> >>>> >> >>while paused. >>> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >>>> >> > I actually supect that many users press Pause, then make a >>> >> >>>> >> > selection >>> >> >>>> >> > and >>> >> >>>> >> > expect >>> >> >>>> >> > the effect or edit to work on that selection. >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> Some screenshots posted by users show them paused >>> >> >>>> >> with a partial selection, some with just an editing cursor. >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> Even if they did make the selection after Pause, many >>> >> >>>> >> would save time by knowing the SHIFT + A and ] >>> >> >>>> >> shortcuts. >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> I still think Select All if there is no selection when we stop >>> >> >>>> >> paused playback is the least useful choice we could make. >>> >> >>>> >> It would be less bad if "Select all... if none selected" only >>> >> >>>> >> worked on selected tracks, but that would not solve the >>> >> >>>> >> problem when you record a new track with other tracks >>> >> >>>> >> already present, because for a reason I have never >>> >> >>>> >> understood, newly recorded tracks are not selected. >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> Gale >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> > In some cases, the user will have pressed Pause a while back >>> >> >>>> >> > and >>> >> >>>> >> > come >>> >> >>>> >> > back >>> >> >>>> >> > to Audacity >>> >> >>>> >> > not noticing the visual cue f the Pause button being down, >>> >> >>>> >> > then >>> >> >>>> >> > make >>> >> >>>> >> > a >>> >> >>>> >> > sekection and >>> >> >>>> >> > expect to be able to work on that (and are confused when they >>> >> >>>> >> > can't). >>> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >>>> >> > Peter. >>> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >>>> >> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Gale Andrews >>> >> >>>> >> > <ga...@au...> >>> >> >>>> >> > wrote: >>> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> On 20 October 2016 at 16:57, Steve the Fiddle >>> >> >>>> >> >> <ste...@gm...> >>> >> >>>> >> >> wrote: >>> >> >>>> >> >> > On 20 October 2016 at 16:17, Gale Andrews >>> >> >>>> >> >> > <ga...@au...> >>> >> >>>> >> >> > wrote: >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Although this prevents users getting stuck in confusion, >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> how >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> useful >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> is >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> the current behaviour when the user chooses an action >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> that >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> depends >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> on >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> a selection? When we stop we currently do "Select All" if >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> there >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> is >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> no >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> selection, or retain the selection if there is one. >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Although it is not easy to know what the user wants, >>> >> >>>> >> >> > >>> >> >>>> >> >> > I'd go further than that and say that it is 'impossible' >>> >> >>>> >> >> > to >>> >> >>>> >> >> > know >>> >> >>>> >> >> > what >>> >> >>>> >> >> > the user wants. >>> >> >>>> >> >> > The current behaviour allows users to retain or adjust an >>> >> >>>> >> >> > existing >>> >> >>>> >> >> > selection, or create an entirely new selection, whichever >>> >> >>>> >> >> > they >>> >> >>>> >> >> > want. >>> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> Right, but I think many users don't know about the relevant >>> >> >>>> >> >> useful commands "Stop and Set Cursor" and "Select Right at >>> >> >>>> >> >> Playback >>> >> >>>> >> >> Position" or even that they can change the selection >>> >> >>>> >> >> while paused. >>> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> So even if we reason to leave the selection as it is when we >>> >> >>>> >> >> stop >>> >> >>>> >> >> and >>> >> >>>> >> >> open the effect, we still need that education, IMO. >>> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> Gale >>> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> > As "we" don't know what the user wants I think it's best >>> >> >>>> >> >> > that >>> >> >>>> >> >> > we >>> >> >>>> >> >> > allow >>> >> >>>> >> >> > the user to decide, which is what we now do, with the >>> >> >>>> >> >> > exception of >>> >> >>>> >> >> > "select all if none selected". >>> >> >>>> >> >> > >>> >> >>>> >> >> > Personally I've never been in favour of "select all if >>> >> >>>> >> >> > none >>> >> >>>> >> >> > selected" >>> >> >>>> >> >> > as it assumes that we know what the user wants when the >>> >> >>>> >> >> > user >>> >> >>>> >> >> > doesn't >>> >> >>>> >> >> > know, and obscures the true fact that effects operate on >>> >> >>>> >> >> > selections. >>> >> >>>> >> >> > >>> >> >>>> >> >> > Steve >>> >> >>>> >> >> > >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> I suspect what >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> most want when choosing an effect without a selection >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> present is >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> actually Select Right at Playback Position, so they >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> create a >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> selection >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> from editing cursor to pause point. They might actually >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> want >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> to >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> select >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> from pause point to the end of the track, but I can't see >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Select >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> All >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> is often going to be helpful. >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> If they already have a selection when pausing playback, >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> and >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> don't >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> change the selection before calling the effect, they >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> probably >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> don't >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> want to retain that selection, and probably Select Right >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> at >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Playback >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Position would again be most useful. >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> If they were recording to a new track with other tracks >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> already >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> existing, I strongly suspect they want to select all in >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> the >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> track >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> they >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> were recording in (Select Right at Playback Position >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> might >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> not >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> select >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> all the recorded track if it gets latency corrected). >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> If they were Append Recording then doing Select Right at >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Playback >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Position seems reasonable. >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> I think we may be jumping from frying pan to a (smaller) >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> fire >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> here, >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> and we will need to educate in the Manual about Stop and >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Set >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Cursor >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> and Select Right at Playback Position, and that you can >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> change >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> the >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> selection when paused. >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Even if simply keeping the current selection when we stop >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> is >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> the >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> only >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> reasonable choice, I think Select All when there is no >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> selection >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> is >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> a >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> poor choice. >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Gale >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >>> >> >>>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >>>> Audacity-quality mailing list >>> >> >>>> Aud...@li... >>> >> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >>> >> >>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >>> Audacity-quality mailing list >>> >> >>> Aud...@li... >>> >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality >>> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >>> >> >> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list >>> >> >> Aud...@li... >>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >>> >> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! 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